I'm Storing Brood Comb | It Didn't Go Well

[@StanGore-mk8ow]

Great question - I bet it’s a combination of both What ever works 👍🤠🐝

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yep, that's what I always say....If something works stick with it and many have success with it. I will try again next season. It's working for too many others for me to just give up. Thanks again Stan!!

[@viahoneybees]

We’ve used Certan for several years on our honey and brood combs with great success. If I remember correctly the mix ratio is 1:19 Certan:Water. We mix it in a 1/2 gallon pump sprayer and spray each comb and leave them to dry out for a day before storing them in a shipping container. It doesn’t prevent the wax moths from laying, but kills the larvae as soon as they start consuming the comb ingesting the BT. I like it because I don’t have to smell that paramoth or have to off gas the supers/frames before putting them back on hives in the spring.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Glad you're seeing success Tom, or Melissa, or Tom and Melissa.... I'll try it again, but I don't like the idea of them being able to start chewing. With the paramoth, they just stay away altogether. We'll see, I'm not giving up on it.

[@horsehugger2000]

Thank you so much for this video. I did go out and get some of the crystals. I had use certain on all my comb as well but since I’m just starting, I felt like I couldn’t take a chance of losing any of it so I am heading your words and experience! I expect the smell will also keep the mice out as a bonus!

[@MikeBarryBees]

You're welcome and thanks for watching!! I've used the crystals and cakes for a few years now with great success and I believe they are a safe bet. I am not done trying the Certan, but just need to wait until next season at this point.

[@horsehugger2000]

Thank you so much for this video. I did go out and get some of the crystals. I had use Sertan on all my comb as well but since I’m just starting, I felt like I couldn’t take a chance of losing any of it so I am heading your words and experience!

[@MikeBarryBees]

You're welcome and thanks for watching!! I've used the crystals and cakes for a few years now with great success and I believe they are a safe bet. I am not done trying the Certan, but just need to wait until next season at this point.

[@DonaldFarmHoney]

I love videos like this that shows people that there is always something going on if you want to be a beekeeper. If your now working with the bees your working with the equipment.

[@MikeBarryBees]

That's a fact Billy!! Always something to do.

[@jonclemons1421]

You are right about moths getting into the wax when you think you've outsmarted them. First I put the boxes and frames in heavy wall trash bags, they got in. I put frames inside plastic tubs, they got in. Then I put the bag between the tub and the lid, they got in. Now I'm trying the paramoth (like you had) inside the tubs. Good Grief!

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yep, I've seen them inside trash bags even though I sealed them right out of the freezer. You'll get success from the paramoth. I've used it for years with only one failure and that was my fault for not refreshing the cakes. It was a warm December and the dissolved. Just refresh them and you should see success.

[@russellkoopman3004]

Mike, what I learned in my college classes was that Bt if eaten by lepetopodra (moths) in sufficient quantity will cause the larvae to get an internal ulcer in their gut. So they have to eat enough of the Bt to cause the ulcer. If you didn't spray the corners well it would take the larvae time to ingest enough of the poison. Bt was one of the first modified genes inserted into corn. Over the years there has been resistance by the moths to Bt so they came up with several slightly different strains of Bt and it has worked fairly well but isn't bullet proof.

[@MikeBarryBees]

@@russellkoopman3004hmmmm….good info Russell. Very good to know. I am not done trying it, but I need to gather more info and experiences from others before I try again.

[@udderstuff5554]

My experience last year using it, when i sprayed and then stored them inside the moths ate it, most of the worms will die. However new ones keep hatching, so the end result is the same (damaged unusable comb). I then moved them outside and i had no issues... IMO you have to store them outside.

[@MikeBarryBees]

That was one of my theories. Everyone that is having success is having it with the frames stored outside. I will try again and maybe I just need to move them all outside under the shelter. I will definitely try again.

[@SquidSquid-x9u]

Mike. BT is a species of bacteria that when ingested by the wax moth larva(all caterpillar type critters for that matter) suppresses the feeding desire of the larva, resulting in starvation. So they do need to consume the bacteria applied to the comb in order for it to work. You observations regarding consumption patterns are correct

[@MikeBarryBees]

Good info to know and thanks so much for confirming that for me. This also confirms why they started and did not finish. I really want to use it, so I need to figure out how to make it effective and accept a little bit of loss I might get when they start to chew. For the corners I believe I just did not cover the frame completely. Thanks again for the comment, and also for watching!!

[@gregdunn8208]

Timely video Mike. I treated my brood comb with Certan a couple of weeks ago. I'll check it tomorrow. I hope I have better luck than you did!

[@MikeBarryBees]

Apologies for causing you all that work Greg. Had a great time the other night at the meeting. Hope to see you again at the Pine Belt gathering.

[@robertlewis3336]

I'm a huge fan of Xentari/Certan. My first couple years beekeeping I lost a fortune's worth of frames to moths. Since I started using Xentari, no problem at all. It works for me. I'm surprised at your lack of success with it. Yes, the worms do start eating & thus ingest the Bt, but they haven't gotten very far after that. When I use it, I pretty much drench the comb & then just let air dry.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Thanks for your insight and experience! I appreciate this post because so far you answered the main question I had….do they actually have to start chewing. I think I might buy some xentari and try it as well. I think it will mix easier too. Thanks Robert for the comment. I am going to give it another try.

[@robertlewis3336]

@@MikeBarryBees For my Xentari, I use 4 teaspoons per gallon of water. The instructions are a little vague, but that works for me. It mixes easily & thoroughly.

[@ThatBeeMan]

Thanks for sharing your experience with Certan. I used it recently on my brood frames. I hope it works better. I won't know until spring. I love my solar wax melter too. I also use it for apiary scrapings. Thanks for sharing !

[@MikeBarryBees]

I am going to give the Certan another shot next season. What I'm seeing that the folks having the most success are using it on frames stored outside. Thanks for the comment Brad!!

[@ThatBeeMan]

@@MikeBarryBees Ian had good success this past summer, and yes, I think they were stored outside at that point.

[@Vladviking]

I had a hive that took off or dead out?? Didn't catch it in time, those boxes and frames are sitting on fire ant mounds right now. I'm looking to see how well that cleans them up before I sort and salvage.

[@JoneyJefe]

I do that frequently. IME, it works great. If anything, it’s especially fun imagining the fire ants and the bees working together to clean the comb and kill all the larvae. IME, I get best results when I put an old empty deep box on the ground surrounding the ant bed. Then stack the dead out boxes cross cross on top. Of course stir up the bed once you put the first box on the ground and enjoy the show. I’ve come back a few days later to see the box over half filled with dead larvae and trash from the frames above.

[@MikeBarryBees]

I’ve tried that before and the ants had a nest built into the comb the next day. I had to wash out the comb and still didn’t get all the dirt out. I set it close to the ant mom d the next time and it worked pretty well.

[@316BeeManDan]

Thanks for the Vlog Mike and the information. We are trying Certan this year for the first time as well, and are now checking the frames we sprayed for any WM larvae damage. Picked up some mothballs at Dollar General per Peter’s info below just in case we need to try those as well. Really appreciate you getting your experience out into the interwebs so we can adjust our processes if necessary.

[@MikeBarryBees]

You’re welcome and I saw your reply to Peter. I am going to stock up at the dollar store now for sure on the mothballs. I am not giving up on BT, but need to gather all this info and experience being shared for when I try again.

[@BrianCooper901]

That’s crazy. I haven’t had issues but I make sure the combs are wet down to the foundation. I let them dry out then put them in a tote in our shed. The worst I’ve seen is a small dead larvae that chewed part of an adjacent cell. Sorry that happened to you I’m sure you’ll get it figured out, and if not you can always go with what works for you! Thanks for sharing!

[@MikeBarryBees]

Thanks for the input Brian. I am not done truck g it, just done for this year. Too many people are having success for me to just give it one try.

[@researcherAmateur]

Hey Mike. To save those plastic sheets i pop them out and throw them all in a plastic barrel to let the wax moths finish their job.. so l can easy wash with water and wax again. Don't let the mouse get in.. sheets will be like new. In our climate l keep a box with 8 dark frames under the brood box and let the bees watch the frames. They don't care, I'm doing it for years.. there will be a heater flow to extract now.. all deeps will end up under them, empty, to clean and remain there.. they are on top in the warm and keep the bottom frames clean. Why would I keep them, it's their job. (No hive beetles here. I don't know would that make any difference). Those others l keep out under a roof with two walls.. the same as you. Wax moth don't like draft and light. 8 per box. It's very rare to have wax moths on them to do a little damage. We got to slow down a little bit.. I was sick too... have a filing that I started to get sick much easier than before. Always some kind of virus... take care my Navy body beekeeper

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yea, I'm letting the moths finish them off so I don't have to scrape. I need to get them soon though so the moths don't damage the frames. They do a great job cleaning them for sure. I am the same way as far as getting sick. I used to rarely even catch a cold, much less get terribly sick. Now when I catch something, it will take me longer to recover. Take care!!

[@lomavistabeeco]

Hey Mike…I am experimenting with a product that preserves comb. It seems to be working out, but time will tell. I have lots of boxes stacked of drawn comb that have the same para moth product you showed except it’s the moth balls and not the cake. I put them on paper plates and seal them up with plastic wrap. I let them air out for a couple 3 weeks before using them in the Spring. A tried and true method! I like your solar melter. I run a lunar melter 😂

[@MikeBarryBees]

You'll have to share what that product is if it works. Well, I guess you won't HAVE to share, but it'd be nice...LOL!! Yea, I've had too goo of a success with the moth cakes and crystals to stray too far until I see something as good. Does the lunar melter only work on full moons, or can you get some melting out of the crescent moos as well??? Do tell....

[@melvinyoder1954]

I get so jealous when you guys get started in February with your bees and I'm still freezing. But the problems you guys have with moths and hive beetle I'm quit happy being in Wisconsin.

[@MikeBarryBees]

And that's why I never say someone else has it easy. I love you all's compact seasons and short swarm season, but the long winters and the fact that if I make one mistake in the spring, I lose my harvest in that hive. So the way I see it is that we all have our challenges. So yes Melvin, I agree. And thanks as always for the comment and for watching!! Long time supporter my friend!!

[@nancynolton6079]

I've gotten in the habit of freezing brood and honey comb, bringing back to room temp and then bagging whole medium boxes in a plastic bag (tall kitchen holds a medium super) and then taping it closed. Never had any wax moth problems in over 10 years and run approx 30 hives. Figure deep frames (in a deep super) could be done the same way using the big black leaf bags stacked two or three high... worth a try? Don't get the bags with the draw strings they don't work get the ones you tie off so you can fold the plastic over and then tape down over the seam - wide blue painters tape works great.

[@MikeBarryBees]

I really don’t have any issues with the para moth and with storing my honey supers outside in the open. I store about 900 honey super frames, so being able to keep them in the boxes and outside works very well with that amount. As far as deep brood frames, depending on how good or bad the season is, I can be storing from 30 or 40 to even 120 one year, so I do like the brood boxes for storage and the para moth has always protected them (except for the warm winter where my para moth dissolved 😬😬😬). My buddy back in Florida does what you’re talking about and it works great for him.

[@franstephenson781]

My one hive got over run by wax moths. I took the whole box to the chickens, they cleaned up the worms and frames.

[@MikeBarryBees]

I try to get mine to the neighbor chickens when it happens, but when they're not out of the coop, I just have to scrape them off after they are frozen. Thanks for watching!!

[@tonyvanoostrom3501]

Hey there Mike. Wondering if it’s possible your container of certan got overheated somehow prior to use? You got some good heat in Louisiana. I see storage on the label is between 5 and 20 C. If it’s possible it got warmer for a period of time, fit may have rendered your batch of B402 less effective? As you point out, it did seem to work but only after quite a bit of damage. Just a thought on a possible cause. Thanks. Keep up the great videos 😀

[@MikeBarryBees]

I don't think it could've gotten overheated. Stan sent it to me from Texas and it was early spring, so the temps were fine and since then I have kept it at room temp. I think it was a coverage issue and now I'm seeing that the folks having the most success are using it on frames stored outside. That might be what I try next season is to store the frames under my shed outside. I'll see if that does it for me.

[@donstanley8514]

I use political signs , cut them down to the size of the box, and use them as gaskets between the boxes, with a little bit of moth crystals in each box.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yep, that's a good idea. I'll usually go about 4 boxes then a shim and I've used the signs on top and bottom. They crush down good and seal well. Thanks for your comment Don!!

[@donaldbarth3404]

Have you tried putting the frames after freezing into a plastic bag and tie it off so moths can't get in. I have had great success with this method without any treatments. You can inspect the bag whenever you want to check for additional damage.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Just too many frames for me to use that method. I know it works, and I’ve seen my formed use them with success.

[@rodneymiddleton9624]

The solar wax melter is incredible. Just throw it in there and forget about it. I have a Lyson. Thanks Mike!

[@MikeBarryBees]

That's my plan Rodney. Going to be handy for sure.

[@rtxhoneybees]

I get the para-moth balls from Tractor Supply. For some reason, they have a lower price than Amazon or Walmart. You do have to have it shipped to the store because most dont stock it. As far as wax worms attacking honey only comb, they absolutely will. I learned that the hard way this year. Perhaps the brood and pollen cells lured them in, but they ate everything once they got in there. Storing open air like you do is not an option for me because of rats.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Good to know Phillip. If they attached your honey supers, I’d be willing to bet there was some brood comb or pollen in there. That’s why I segregate the ones that had brood in them to the one stack. I figure if they get my one stack, I’ll be ok. But I’ve never had the entire stack taken out. Usually a box or two. Any clear comb has never in my time beekeeping been attacked by the moths. But….i do say, I should never say never😁😁. Take care!!

[@edwardclark5211]

Dream Big brother 🙏

[@MikeBarryBees]

Thanks Brother!!

[@donaldbarth3404]

The big 90 gallon bags are large enough to put three mid suppers in.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yea, I have a friend that uses bags. I don’t have issues with supers since the wax is clean and was brood free, plus I store about 900 frames, so the storage outside seems to great for me. Thanks for the comment and for watching!!

[@donaldbarth3404]

@@MikeBarryBees I only freeze and store in bags frames that have evidence of WWM damage when going thru brood boxes. Everything else is stored in a climate-controlled room. Keep up the good work on how you do beekeeping. I get tips. Regards

[@donaldbarth3404]

I don't use any treatments except oxalic acids and beetle traps with oil.

[@JoneyJefe]

Hi Mike. We met in Pineville at the LBA. It was nice meeting you. Great video. Please excuse the lengthy reply below. I have great success with Certan. I actually spoke with CERTAN folks a few times and have a few voicemails answering a few questions I had about the product. I discussed it on Facebook in the LBA Facebook page if you are interested in more details. I had two questions. First, how long is the leftover Certan solution I made good for? Months? Weeks? Or is it useless after 24 hours like the Oxalic acid solution? The answer was, “you probably need to apply it in under 6 hours or it won’t be good any longer.” Honestly, I was a little shocked. My second question was, “if I apply it to comb before I freeze it, do I need to apply it again when I pull the frames out to store them in the boxes?” He wanted to know why I was freezing them and said, “we just spray them and store them. That way you don’t have to freeze them. Why are you freezing them??” I explained that I have several dozen boxes of frames outside getting cleaned by the bees while I rotate several boxes of frames at a time through the freezer(s). It may take me several weeks depending on my schedule. So I spray the ones outside to prevent damage while they wait. Then they go in the freezer. A few days later, I pull them out, spray them, and store them in the hive box. While the Certan prevents the wax moths from damaging the comb on the frames waiting outside, it does not do anything for the small hive beetle larvae/eggs. So I want to freeze them anyways to kill the SHB eggs/larvae. But I was hoping to hear that the Certan would still work after freezing. He kind of chuckled and said, “we never really had to worry about SHB before.” He said he would do some research and get back to me. Short answer was that the bacteria likely survives, but they don’t know how effective it would still be. So at this point they recommended to reapply it after freezing. This MIGHT be two details to consider when applying Certan. First, the solution has to be fresh, preferably under an hour. Second, if you applied it before freezing, you still need to apply it again. Quite the opposite of what I was hoping for, but I still love the product. I don’t use anything else.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yessir, I saw your post. I read it in detail and remember about the freezing question. I mixed it and applied it within 20 minutes. I have had some great comments and explanations and at a meeting last night I got some good info and experiences related to me. I think it worked fine wheee the coverage was good and as the larvae ate, they died and only got so far. The corners I attribute to me not covering the entire frame as I should have. I will try it again next season or later this year if I have any comb to try. I appreciate the comment and that you took the time to pass in the info. This allows everyone to see what the manufacturer actually has to say.

[@CentralKyBees]

I tried certain b402 with the same results. Froze the frames and applied it after they thawed. Treated with certain and stored in boxes in my building sealed up with telescoping covers. Went to the dollar store and bought that same stuff except it was the enoz moth crystals. Same active ingredient. I've not seen a moth in my boxes since!

[@MikeBarryBees]

Well, that's for sure a tried and true method with the para-dichlorobenzene. What I am seeing is the folks having success are using it on frames stored outside. But the crystals and cakes leave no doubt.

[@Lbfarmsllc]

MIKE , did you by chance allow any of the treated frames to dry in the sun? I learned the hard way that direct sunlight will deactivate the BT, that was with Xentari. I thought I was being smart letting them dry in the sun for 3 or 4 hours. A couple of hundred frames ruined by the wax moths within a month. “Direct sunlight will inactivate BT products.” - From the University of Kentucky.

[@MikeBarryBees]

I didn’t allow the to dry in the sun, but sure glad you mentioned this fact. Very good to know. I hope everyone reads these comments. A lot good info being shared. Hate to hear that you learned it in that fashion, but very glad you have shared it for us to all learn from. Thanks so much!’

[@JoneyJefe]

Great info!

[@Junebug-js4ol]

Great video. I just got a 5 oz bottle of Certan, but can't figure out if one 5 oz bottle needs 1 gallon of water? I was hoping to get multiple treatments from the one bottle, but think I'll try the cakes instead. (What was your recipe?) Thanks.

[@JoneyJefe]

Grab a spray bottle. One from Home Depot or Lowe’s that will hold 20-30 fl oz. Mark the bottle every 10 oz for easy reference. Pour 0.5 oz of Certan into the bottle. Then add 9.5 oz of water (up to the 10 oz line you marked). Shake it up and use all of it pretty quickly. According to Certan, it doesn’t store well. If you want to make 20 oz, then just start out with 1 fl oz of Certan and then add 19 oz of water to it. Hope that helps.

[@Junebug-js4ol]

@@JoneyJefe Great explanation! The shape of the bottle is like one meant to hold solids, so I assumed it was a powder. Thanks to your comment, I shook the bottle, and of course, it's a liquid. Thanks again for your comment and calculations!

[@JoneyJefe]

@@Junebug-js4ol happy to help. Let us know how your apiaries are doing as well as the Certan!

[@MikeBarryBees]

I actually don't remember the ratios, but I followed the label to the tee. Measuring cup and all. I know the 5oz bottle I got will do about 50 frames I think. Just don't remember and I don't have it nearby. But it will do quite a few frames, and you will get multiple treatments out of it. The cakes will definitely work, but trying a few frames with the Certan would be good so you can figure out how it does for you. Hope you get great results!! Thanks for watching!!

[@Junebug-js4ol]

@@MikeBarryBees Thank you for your reply! I just got a sprayer and also the cake. I figured I'd try the Certan first, with the cake as backup. I am also thinking of spraying wooden-ware where I have seen moths, example telescoping top. I am wondering about spraying it under my hive: saw some wax moths within the cinder block holes.

[@benjamindejonge3624]

I keep only a few in my freezer, all goes in the melter, moth here locally is an big problem and chemicals are not a option

[@MikeBarryBees]

Oh wow, that's too bad. I'd hate to have to scrape some season when I have a lot of really good comb. It is gold and I use it when I split. But you have to do what you have to do I suppose. Thanks for sharing that and for watching!!

[@bligon11]

You do have to angle the comb when you are spraying it.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Good to know. Thanks for the info. And thanks for watching!!

[@StanGore-mk8ow]

interesting mike....hard to say.--- i never store my drawn frames inside. i spray certain 19-1 and store in deep frames stood up on end outside with air going through them. I have never had a wax moth issues doing it that way.-- sorry it didnt work for ya. :)

[@MikeBarryBees]

Well, the more I hear, the more I see that people use certan with frames stored outside. So I honestly have to wonder…..is it the certan, or the fresh air and light? Or a combination of them both? At a meeting, and in several comments, I’m seeing my one theory being proven and that is that the larvae have to eat it to die. That’s what I saw were trails that went one to four inches and then abruptly stopped. I’ll try again next season with a few, but for now, it’s back to the moth cakes. As long as I keep the cakes stocked in the boxes, I have zero loss and can store them in my barn. I sure appreciate you sending me that bottle to try.

[@illumi-Nate]

Will moths bother the frames if they were just hanging outside on a rack under a roof? I was thinking of doing that if it will work

[@MikeBarryBees]

If they had brood and/or pollen in them, then the wax moths down this way will destroy them. In a hurry too.

[@horizontalbees]

Mike do you have any problems with mice getting into your honey supers?

[@MikeBarryBees]

I don’t Rickey. At least not so far. Just dirt dobbers. The mice tend to go inside my shed in the winter, so maybe that’s why. They don’t want to stay in the cold supers since they’re outside. Just a guess.

[@horizontalbees]

@@MikeBarryBees thanks for the info Mike!!!

[@glennsnaturalhoney4571]

I'm guessing the spray didn't get into the corners or it wasn't mixed well? Glenn

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yep, I agree Glenn.

[@joeymullins3859]

When my comb gets dark like that I usually melt it down and replace it, am I wasting drawn comb.

[@MikeBarryBees]

I would say the answer to are you wasting drawn comb lies in the eyes of the beholder. If you are able to replace it easily enough and you’re not short on comb, then you’re doing just fine. I think there is also the question of where your bees are foraging. If it’s a heavy row crop area, you might actually be on a good schedule because you could be building a lot more pesticide residue in the wax than maybe another area. Depends where they’re foraging. But how and when is really what fits your needs. I figure between 5 to 10 years is where I want to replace it. That seems to be industry wide from what I’ve learned. Heavy row crop areas maybe sooner due to pesticide residue.

[@brettellis1837]

Seen one bloke had a shed had 5. 1700lt chest freezers frames never moved all freezers he got from auction's. Pays to in vest in good sheds one section was full of security screening.????.😂

[@MikeBarryBees]

Space is gold, no doubt! Bob Binnie has a contact that lest him store frames in a warehouse freezer/cooler. Wow, what a deal. If I had room, I'd buy up more chest freezers. I see them now and again on the swap shop pages. Thanks for checking in Brett. Been a bit since I've seen you name.

[@brettellis1837]

@@MikeBarryBees SOME AUCTIONS THEY DONT SELL PAST IN UNREAL.

[@MikeChamplin]

My experience with Certan / BT is that it's not a repellant. Some wax moths will attempt to infest the stored brood frames, but end up dying off due to the BT destroying their digestive tract once they start eating cocoons. I've found dead WMs on some comb but overall the stored frames were intact. The P-moth crystals acts more like a repellant for adult moths.

[@MikeBarryBees]

Yes, I agree. That’s what I stated in the video that one is a repellent, the para-moth and that the other a pesticide of sorts. Kills chewing insects. My issue is that they have to begin chewing. How far before it kills them was the issue that I’m seeing. They definitely started chewing but then stopped, so they must’ve died. I’m not sure I like that part, but I’ll try again. People are having success, so I need to give it another try.

[@ssmith0319]

Stacking your boxes with no sides on your shed doesn’t create mold on your frames?

[@MikeBarryBees]

Not, as long as they stay dry. The air and sunlight help as well.

[@Peter_Gunn]

Hey Mike, the dollar tree sales para-dichlorobenzene balls for $1.25 for a bag

[@MikeBarryBees]

Good to know!! Thanks! I never thought to look there.

[@316BeeManDan]

Thanks for that Peter…can confirm, picked up a few pkgs today based on that tip! 4oz compared to 6oz cakes, but for $1.25 ea…yes please

[@MikeBarryBees]

@@316BeeManDan I agree. A few ounces smaller but easy to get and cheap….ill take that deal. I’m going to stop by this week and get some from there based on this tip.

[@hopesadler4000]

I learned from Grammy Lisa about Dollar tree. Much cheaper than Amazon.