I Stopped Caring About The Starlight 12 Once The Viper V2 Pro Came Out

[@ThomasMuehler]

Which one did you decide on and why? I'd love to discuss with you. Personally, I'm going to continue to use BOTH Of them based on my mood. But OBJECTIVELY, I think the Viper V2 Pro is the better mouse.

[@Rezik.]

So I have 2 starlight 12s and both have TERRIBLE qc. I’ve sent them both in to finalmouse and my Pegasus went in TWICE and still has qc issues. I think I’m going to get a v2 pro just because I know that the qc will be decent. Also only 10 grams heavier and it dosent have holes. I think I’ll like it better. Really similar shape too. Also has a software, unlike starlight.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@Rezik. That's absolutely nuts. To have two with terrible QC AND you send it back TWICE and it still has issues. Completely unacceptable. Unfortunately, I've heard a lot of other people who have sent in their mouse only to get it back with it still being broken. Not really sure what the heck they are doing over there. Obviously, not the right things. I think you'll like the Viper V2 Pro a lot assuming you enjoy the shape. As I LOVED the Starlight 12. But the Viper V2 Pro just feels like it is in a different league almost all around. With the exception that I love the 45 grams (but 59 grams is still just fine). The Magnesium alloy is awesome as is the shape. But the rest of the mouse is kind of like meh due to QC. I would love to hear your thoughts on the Viper V2 Pro if/when you pick it up. Especially, in comparison to your Starlights.

[@Rezik.]

@@ThomasMuehler absolutely. Do you really notice the 14 gram difference while gaming?

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@Rezik. Eh, it’s hard to call. On one hand I want to say you can notice the difference. But on the other I would say that you can’t. As at this weight you don’t notice it as much as say going from 80 grams to 60 grams. But if I’m being critical when aiming I do feel a weight difference which makes me like the Superlight. But the sensor and everything else feels much better on the V2 which eliminates whatever advantage the Superlight has so I personally prefer it. I’m sure that comes down to personal preference though. Also the Viper V2 Pro is well balanced so I think that helps a lot.

[@acidiconionas6207]

I just use the old viper ultimate.... I want a starlight 12 tho.

[@TheMostSavageOfAllGeese]

Viper has better sensor, better scroll wheel , better coating (imo) , light enough to not be a huge factor vs Starlight, Viper has up to 4000hz, better shape for claw/hybrid claw imo, better motion sync, better customer support

[@ThomasMuehler]

Correct and 100% agree.

[@EscBackspace]

The starlight series is amazing. However for $190, the common qc issues, and the difficulty to realistically obtain one just isnt comparable. Its more art then it is a gaming mouse.

[@ThomasMuehler]

Good points. I don't disagree. I just have a hard time looking at something like a gaming mouse as "art". But you aren't wrong.

[@threadripper3750]

bro then you need to get it from fb marketplace for under retail

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@threadripper3750 Is that a common thing? I've never seen a Starlight on Facebook Marketplace.

[@threadripper3750]

@@ThomasMuehler oh i just got mines on my local markplace. paid 195 for it cash. local trades near police station of course for safety.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@threadripper3750 Definitely need to be careful when doing that kind of stuff. But you can find some great deals. $195 is an excellent price. I think you got real lucky. As I continue to see them around $250 or more.

[@nomad9098]

Viper V2 Pro: 149.99. In-stock. With 2 year RMA warranty. Starlight 12: 190.00(Retail). Always Out-of Stock. Shitty Warranty. I don't see this as a difficult choice to make.

[@frogidty]

Facts

[@ThomasMuehler]

When you put it like that I can't disagree. lol

[@yi-nyenlosang8520]

lol the series is literally averaging about 400-600 dollars on stockx

[@MerzYT]

my dongle stop working, they're not sending me a new dongle.. but the whole new mouse!.. now i have 2 viper v2 pro lol..

[@AmerikkkaGuitars]

F Starlight, overhyped bs selling practices, qc issues, still doesn't compete with click latency from razer.

[@ThomasMuehler]

All fair points that I can't disagree with. lol

[@AmerikkkaGuitars]

@@ThomasMuehler TY bro, so many mouse influencers that just want free stuff, instead of telling the truth like you.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@AmerikkkaGuitars I try to be as fair and objective as I can. So I'm glad that is coming across. As I think that is a critical and most important part of the review (being truthful).

[@Woot30]

I don’t even need to watch the video before making this choice. Finalmouse QC and customer service is absolute garbage. Not to mention their method of selling their mice. Trash company.

[@ThomasMuehler]

You know, I can usually come up with some rebuttal. But you are absolute correct. lol

[@Lucas-eg9nt]

The Phantom, Pegasus and Poseidon is around 600 usd here in Brazil lol.

[@ThomasMuehler]

OH MY GOODNESS! That's brutal and totally not worth it. Wow. lol Unfortunately, you just missed the latest Finalmouse drop too. Next one won't be until next year supposedly. But maybe that will deflate some of those prices.

[@ASOTXASSASSIN45]

Conspiracy Theory: Finalmouse bots their own drops so that they can sell them aftermarket for a mark up.

[@ThomasMuehler]

Lol, if I’m being honest that would not surprise me at all. Honestly I could totally see that being a thing.

[@nivity]

1 company has horrible custom support, do SUPREME method of selling their mice and pretty much always "sold out" 1 company has a mouse you can actually buy. Not really a tough choice.

[@ThomasMuehler]

You are not wrong. But I get a lot of people asking me if the Starlight 12 is worth it when buying from third party. Also, Finalmouse is now doing drops on a regular basis. Which makes them slightly more available. So still think this video would be beneficial for those who are thinking about getting one from a new drop or from a third party. But think most people just due to availability and cost will choose the Viper V2 Pro. Which is the better mouse anyways. But that weight, magnesium allow, and colors really are something.

[@wasifchowdhury6913]

I used to think the same way until I get the starlight 12 phantom edition small. I used to use a razor viper ultimate g pro super light and m710 by Cool Master and the zyzs rail mouse out of all the mice I've used, the starlight 12 is arguably the best I've ever used and I only bought it off of StockX. Paid a little bit over. Maybe 25 extra more dollars over retail. The weight, the shape, and the weight management of the mouse beats every single mouse that is in the market. To be honest with the razor viper ultimate the new edition which is the V2. It's still the same mouse, maybe with slightly newer clicks. And to be honest, I'd rather keep the starlight 12 rather than that shitty mouse

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@wasifchowdhury6913 I can totally respect your thoughts. The Starlight 12 does a lot of things right and I can see why you enjoy it so much. I still really enjoy mine. But definitely prefer the Viper V2 Pro (over any other mouse on the market). But the Starlight 12, G Pro X Superlight, and Viper Ultimate are all very close seconds. The only thing I have to disagree with is that the V2 is NOT the same mouse as the Viper Ultimate. The people that say that don't actually know what they are talking about. While the upgrades may not be for them they are two completely different mice and the Viper V2 performs at a completely different level when you actually compare them.

[@pepjacklent]

I firmly believe the Starlight is the better mouse. As long as your copy doesn’t have QC issues it’s lighter, unique designs and made of something other than plastic for the first time ever

[@ThomasMuehler]

All extremely good points that I totally agree with. Which is why I continue to have the G Pro X, Viper V2 Pro, and Starlight 12 tied for first place in my rankings.

[@pepjacklent]

@@ThomasMuehler same, I have a GPX and Starlight 12 on my desk rn. For some reason, (probably because I used the ultralight 2 for so long) the starlight 12 is just so much easier to aim with for me. And didn’t bother buying a V2 Pro because I never liked the original Viper U but it’s definitely top 3. Imo those 3 are far and away the top mice rn

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@pepjacklent Again, I completely agree. I like the Starlight 12 better than the Superlight. But see why people love the Superlight. The G Pro Wireless was my Main for years until the Viper Ultimate came out. The Viper shape isn't one of my favorites but it still works perfectly fine for me as I don't have any real complaints for my grip and hand size. However, the Starlight 12 has one of my favorite shapes of all time, paired with the magnesium shell and weight and unique colorways makes it special. So I Mained that for a long time until the V2 Pro came out. I still switch between the two based on how I am feeling though. The Superlight sits on my desk too but gets the least amount of use. And like you said those three mice are just so far away from anything else at the moment. But I've been very impressed with the quality of mouse you can get for $80 - $100 now. Which only became a thing like 6 months ago, or at least it seems like that.

[@pepjacklent]

@@ThomasMuehler I think another thing that makes me respect Finalmouse is their willingness to do things no one else will. I agree there social media and customer service is unbearable but they started the lightweight mouse craze, then started the holes in mice trend, now they release a mouse made of metal that’s wireless and 42g. Wish other company’s like Logitech or Razer would do crazy things then we really might finally see a true #1 best mouse for all

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@pepjacklent That is the main reason why I continue to follow Finalmouse and support them by buying their products. I think I've been a part of every drop since the original ultralight. As they push the boundaries forward by doing unique things. Like you said, lightweight, holes in mice, stock paracords, etc. I think them being a smaller brand allows them take bigger risks as it helps separate them from the competition and the drops creates fear of missing out so they can charge more, sell out immediately, and then get their money back. Obviously their marketing I disagree with but it works EXTREMELY well. So, are they doing it wrong? Depends on your point of view. I just wish that the QC/QA of their mice was better. As they remind me a lot of Glorious. Where they make really unique awesome products, but they never feel as premium as I want them too. The Starlight 12 is definitely the closest they have got. But to say it doesn't have a slew of problems would be a lie.

[@ElNoobIND]

As someone who owns a starlight S, I would anyday give my money for a viper v2 pro IF it was smaller in size.. Viper mini S.E is a no go for me since I didnt have the money for it sadly,,

[@ThomasMuehler]

Agreed on all points. It is unfortunate how expensive the Viper Mini SE is. But they should be coming out with a more affordable version this summer. I say affordable, but I'm still expecting it to be around $150.

[@Cl0udy5ky]

I have both (but the starlight 12 phantom).I play both apex and valorant and Imo the razer is way better. My FM experience was not great. Stopped working after two weeks as soon as I connect the mouse does not move, the sensor is broke but my buttons work. Their customer support is crap as well whereas razer have had no issues and customer support is easily accessible.

[@Cl0udy5ky]

Keep in mind The FM warranty only works with countries that have a international trade agreement that allows cross country warranty. Whereas razer has a global presence and operates in multiple jurisdictions.

[@ThomasMuehler]

WHAT?! Your Starlight-12 Phantom broke in two weeks! That's nuts. What did Finalmouse have to say about that? Or were you unable to use their warranty due to that lack of international trade agreement? Also, you bring up a great point with that. Last, thanks for checking out multiple videos Arvind!

[@Cl0udy5ky]

@@ThomasMuehler they essentially said that the warranty is not covered for my jurisdiction (india). Another interesting fact is that the same rule applies for all msi products (a chinese company) such as my gs 75 laptop as well. Because of the political situation between these 2 countries they are applying pressure through international trade as well. Here also the warranty does not get covered and there being no service centres, the customer support is close to non existent

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@Cl0udy5ky I'm speechless. How incredibly frustrating on all accounts (warranty coverage and pressure via international trade). I wonder if you could buy another sensor and do some DIY and fix it yourself?

[@kyrouske]

Ok so I have both and I’ve been using the Razer v2 pro for a week now vs a couple month’s for the Finalmouse starlight 12. I have trimmed and dremmeled my v2 pro to make it lighter and BOY I find myself using the v2 pro more or shouId I say I don’t even use my starlight 12 anymore ever since I bought my v2 pro. My reasons I like the V2 pro, #1 is the sensor on the v2 pro feels much quicker. #2 the MMB is solid and I don’t accidentally scroll when holding down MMB. #3 after the weight reduction it feels like it is the same weight as my starlight. #4 the razer switches feel much better than the kahil 8.0. #5 size and shape fits my hand much better. #6 the stock feet are solid and glide like butter & the skates I would trade it for is the glass skates if they come out. (I have tiger ice skates on my starlight 12). Overall if price is your problem just get the v2 pro and weight reduction it to match the finalmouse. But for now the v2 pro is my main!

[@ThomasMuehler]

I absolutely loved the rundown! All solid reasons which I can totally agree with.

[@iJansport]

Kyroske have you visited the FM discord and update your firmware? That fixes the ghost scroll issues and lowers the latency a bit as well. I have both as well, and have been loving the viper v2 pro recently

[@kyrouske]

@@iJansport I have, I thought the starlight would end up being my main but nope im still using my razer v2 pro haha. BTW I weighed my razer v2 pro and its weighing in at 52g and I have superglide glass skates on

[@ToStrideForFame]

At 7:50, you begin to say the click switch goes to the Starlight 12 when pointing out the V2 Pro, not sure if that was what you meant or not. I have 17.78 x 9.5 cm hands, and the Viper shape is impossible for me to feel comfortable without hand cramps on my ring and pinky finger because of the front-flared design on the right side. Some larger mouse like the Outset AX was still usable for me as well as other larger mice, but the Viper is the only mouse which have consistently and without a doubt caused finger and even forearm pain. I tried alterations of claw and palm to no avail, and it's ever so slightly too long to palm grip comfortably as well. I haven't tried the Poseidon Small, but it was definitely an issue. Thanks for the mouse review videos, yours is always very informative and I enjoy hearing your feedback on the mice. Cheers!

[@ThomasMuehler]

I got word jumbled a lot trying to say the correct name. Me pointing at the V2 Pro was correct but what I said wasn't. The click would easily go to the Viper V2 Pro all around. It sounds like the Viper, Viper Ultimate, and Viper V2 Pro just aren't for you do to the shape. Which is what I meant by it is kind of a love it or hate it shape. No real middle ground for people. The Viper Ultimate Mini should be coming out this year and may be worth looking into. You can also get the Viper Mini for cheap when on sale to see if you enjoy that shape. But it is a small mouse. I'd worry a bit about the Finalmouse as well. As like I said in the video the shape there is similar. But less dramatic. I'm not sure how much you like small mice but the medium would probably be the way to go for you. If you were to get it at all. Which is hard to recommend for the price and QC issues. What mouse are you currently maining or looking at?

[@ToStrideForFame]

@@ThomasMuehler Hello thanks for the response! So yeah, I'm trying the Viper mini tomorrow, I'll get back on what I think about it! I've tried the Hati-S, GPX, MZ1, Xm1r, Xlite wireless, Xlite v2 mini, Viper, NP-01s, Outset AX, G703, MM720, MM710, G900, and Razer Abyssus. I mained the Abyssus first for years, and the shape is pretty unique with straight sides and a big hump in the back almost identical to the G303 Shroud Edition's back hump for reference. I really liked that shape, but I believe it caused wrist pains in the long run and the shape hasn't been replicated since for a reason xD. But since a couple months ago I've tried the Outset, MM720, and the Xlite mini and I like the ergo shape, but I know I play worse with it overall vs the Ambi shape like the Hati-S. Currently I'm inbetween maining the Xlite mini and I'm trying my hardest to find a grip for the V2 Pro, but man, I was trying the MM720 again and that shape is oddly GOAT'd. I'm currently in a huge debate whether ergo or ambi shapes are better for me, or if small and larger mice suits me. I was looking into gambling on the QC of a S-12 Poseidon Small from a seller, but I'm hesitant on the $200 price tag, and overall I can't see how a mouse should cost that much. For you personally, how do you feel about the ergo vs ambi shapes and the small, medium or large mice? I'm curious to know what you think of them. Thanks again, Cheers!

[@ThomasMuehler]

​@@ToStrideForFame I really need to try out some Pulsar mice. I've heard great things about the Xlite Mini. The MM720 shape is truly GOAT. That mouse is such a sleeper all around. Especially, for the price. And it's freaking water proof. I dunked it in water in my review and it was fine. I love ergo shapes as well. But am with you that I find Ambi shapes to be best for gaming. Ergo is great for generalized browsing but not for competitive play. At least for me. I have large hands 19x11 cm. I prefer medium/small mice. As I think it gives me better control. I think of it like a pencil/pen compared to a large paintbrush. I can be a lot more fine with a pencil/pen over a large paintbrush. But the large paintbrush will be better for larger things but not as good for fine control. Where it is opposite almost for the pencil/pen. If that made any sense. Basically, I think ergo shapes are comfortable for average computer use, ambi shapes for competitive gaming. Medium (so starlight 12 medium which is smaller than RVU or Viper V2 Pro which I consider to be large, but bigger than most small mice, think Orochi V2, Xtrfy Mz1, etc. with deathadder V2 Pro and similar to be extra large). The G Pro X is probably a bit bigger than what I consider a true Medium size mouse. Which I think is going to be the best balance. But small for me is where it is at. As again, they tend to be lighter, due to being small they tend to have better tolerances so have better clicks (as everything is packed in there) along with less creaks and all that. Which makes them easier to handle for me. But this will also be highly dependent on hand size and grip style. I tend to use a hybrid grip that goes between claw, fingertip, and palm. As claw is my neutral position, then fingertip for fine movements/flicks, and palm for extended tracking. As for the Starlight-12. The price is arguably justified. But not for any reason that your average individual would necessarily agree with. Mostly it is weight (the lightest mouse on the market actually with a normal shape). Then you have the magnesium alloy which is more expensive to manufacture. Also makes the outer shell way more robust than any other mouse on the market. But due to Finalmouses QA and the way tech works they need an Ultem base which is plastic and due to that can cause some creaking when squeezed. Depending on model you can also actuate the side buttons. So, it's like yeah the mouse has great build quality but also doesn't at the same time. Then you have the unique colors that you won't find anywhere else. Then you also have the limited edition nature that is actually numbered. That particular color should also never happen again. You also have "premium" specs as well. 3370 sensor, great wireless, low click latency, kailh 8.0 switches, etc. However, again due the the QA the switches can be lackluster on how they feel. Mostly because they haven't perfected the magnesium alloy portion of that yet. The switches themselves are great but most of the feel of a switch comes from the outer shell. $200 isn't bad. As it retails for $189. But also what kind of issues does it have? I do like Finalmouses shapes though. If the Starlight 12 had a better sensor and no QA problems it would be extremely hard to beat. Even if it had the same sensor and no QA problems it may topple the greats. As I still consider the V2 Pro, GPX, and Starlight 12 to be tied for the best mice on the market. Can't go wrong with any of them if you remove the price from the equation. As the differences between them really come from personal preference.

[@ToStrideForFame]

@@ThomasMuehler I think you'll enjoy the Xlite mini, but your hands may be too wide to comfortably palm it and may be pushing it on clawing it, but I would say you can fingertip it pretty well. For smaller hands, it's a good hybrid for all 3 palm, claw, and fingertip grips, which is similar to how the GPX functioned with its potato-y and safe shape. The regular Xlite is just the EC-2 shape but lighter and wireless, so if you know, you know, but the build quality on both the Xlite and mini are exceptional for the price. Man, hearing about the positives of the Starlight-12 makes me hope for a future drop where everything FINALLY clicks together with the build quality and specs, but then the problem of availability is a whole other pain in the ass. The Poseidon drop was gone in seconds, it was crazy. Personally, I would prefer to be the original owner to benefit from a replacement free of charge if need be, and I don't feel comfortable buying it from another since it may void the warranty/replacement or incur shipping fees for any repairs. Have you personally modded or thought of modding any of your Starlights to address any of your personal issues with it if that includes creaking, scroll wheel issues, the clicks, etc.? I was thinking that both buying and modding a Starlight which is like burning money but hey, at least it'll keep you warm for a long time. Also, what do you use your mice to play? For me, the recent kailh 8.0 switch craze has made things difficult for me as a MOBA player who needs to spam click since clicks are becoming more crispy and less spammable. I think it's to the benefit of FPS players though, and if I have any troubles, I can look to mod my mice and replace switches either way to Japanese Omroms or Huano Blue Shell Pink Dots, but I would have to learn to solder (will be trying out soon once the tools finally ship out of China after 30 days so far).

[@ToStrideForFame]

Yeah wow, I'm trying the Viper mini shape and I'm pleasantly surprised by how well it fits my smaller hands. If this is how the regular Viper feels for people with larger hands, then I understand why some love it then. But I will remain a Viper shape hater for now.

[@HP-Ice]

Don't really understand how the QC issues on the starlight series are so bad coming from the capetown, which while puny, was solidly built.

[@ThomasMuehler]

I honestly don’t understand it either. I thought that their plastic mice (Ultralight, Phantom, Air58, and Capetown) were all solid. I didn’t have any issues with them. With the Air58 and my Capetown being the absolute best. However, the only flawless copy that I’ve gotten from the Starlights are the TenZ variant. I had to send my Poseidon back which they “fixed” so now I’m not having the same issues but it feels TERRIBLE. And when it comes to my own collection I tend to not be all that elitist about it (like I am with my reviews, and even then I probably tend to come down a bit light). So for me to say it feels bad means it feels really bad. That’s probably the shell I’ll use if I do the mod you mentioned with the V2 Pro.

[@HP-Ice]

@@ThomasMuehler The next mouse they've yet to announce is supposedly going to have better QC and be more available. Hopefully beyond the scale of the Tenz version which was the largest drop they've done yet. My finalbase mod has yet to arrive but I know for sure it'll outlive my standard tenz. Biggest critique I've seen for it is that a lot of people aren't big into the 3d print material used on the base, I've no prior experience with PLA so I'm not sure if it'll be an issue.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@HP-Ice Finalmouse is great at marketing. I'll believe it when I see it. Until then I'll remain high skeptical. I would be lying if that wasn't a concern of mine as well (the 3D print material). As I'm with you as I haven't had any experience with it either. But seeing as it is on the bottom of the mouse I can't see it being a big deal. As I never pay attention to the bottom of mice (except for the Lamzu Atlantis just because it looks awesome).

[@MaskedOG]

I take the Starlight Pro Tenz every day of the week. Normal Starlight is ass beccause of qc issus but the S-12 Pro is absolutely something else. So s-12 or v2 `=v2. S12 Pro Tenz or V2= S-12 Pro Tenz.

[@ThomasMuehler]

I haven't had much time to actually test my TenZ unit. But the little testing I have done the QA appears to be better. My scroll wheel is crooked though. lol. Anyways, main point is that I'm looking forward to testing it out more. But I'm still not convinced it beats the V2 for me personally. As just the tech inside the V2 is next level. Shape and weight wise easy win to the Starlight 12. Aesthetics (arguably) and build quality (magnesium shell) as well. But everything else goes to the V2 for me.

[@threadripper3750]

razer hyperpolling dongle makes the viper v2 pro the new "King". 4k polling ----

[@ThomasMuehler]

I completely agree. It already had a lead and now it has solidified even more. Also, even with that dongle it costs less than a Starlight 12 at retail.

[@DiCapraLeo]

My big hands could never get over any finalmouse and I managed to get one of each then sold them until I finally got my hands on the Viper which truly fit like a glove for claw-fingertip hybrid. Finalmouses just felt weird but they would all place 2nd to the Viper. Never had copies with problems however razer has everything besides art on them

[@ThomasMuehler]

Appreciate you sharing your experiences. Too bad about the hands. Maybe the newest release with the largest version will work for you. Not sure if you tried the Phantom or Air58 but those are actual large mice. And if the tech inside them is as good as they claim I think it will definitely be the second best mouse on the market. But I still think Razer's done something special with their latest line up of the Basilisk V3 Pro, Deathadder V3 Pro, Viper Mini SE, and Viper V2 Pro and that they have a healthy lead for first.

[@DiCapraLeo]

@@ThomasMuehler even my gf bought the viper v2 yesterday because even if it’s a little too big for her, after using mine she said: ok mouse is def big, but I can use it comfy and it feels like an extension of the arm. Now she’s waiting to find a starlight 12 small to try. The ultrax or whatever is called sounds nice, but I dunno about the internals that much. Phantom and Air were almost there but the shape is meh for me. The shape of viper helps a lot

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@DiCapraLeo Totally agree on it just feeling like an extension of your arm. Think she made a great choice. I'd be interested in hearing about her thoughts on the Starlight-12 if you care to get back to me or remember. The Finalmouse Ultralight X will be releasing on Aug 1, 2023. The internals are also going to be a big bump compared to the Starlight 12. So if you're going to spend a bunch of cash it probably would be worth buying the latest and greatest Finalmouse. Unless if you can get it for cheap. Or at least that's my two cents. But do find it interesting that you enjoy the Viper shape so much but not the Starlight. As I've always found them to be quite similar.

[@BoahYo]

Every mouse I have gotten from razer started having problems in the fist week. Sometimes even breaking after a few months.

[@ThomasMuehler]

I’m sorry to hear that. Sounds frustrating. Thanks for letting me know. Maybe I’ve just been lucky (or you’ve been especially unlucky) but all of my Razer products have always been fine (with the exception of gen 1 optical switches on my RVU going bad after about 9 months). But otherwise they are all still in flawless working condition.

[@BoahYo]

@@ThomasMuehler The ones I have bought are the naga trinity twice and the naga pro twice. (Didnt buy twice, just got a replacement). But yeah stay away from those razer moba mice lol

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@BoahYo Lol I guess so. I also know Razer had terrible QA for a while. It wasn’t until about two or three years ago they really started working hard on improving their products to make them more robust which is where I mostly started trying their products. I did have an Old Razer Naga (which was my first gaming mouse that was fine and I sold) and also a Razer Blackwidow (which was my first gaming keyboard and I still own and works just fine).

[@TheMostSavageOfAllGeese]

I bet you BeardedBob can get the Viper Pro into the 40-49 gram mark

[@ThomasMuehler]

I bet you are right. The man’s a genius.

[@zen-mx1xq]

2:07 the razer womp womp

[@ThomasMuehler]

lmao. My brain just stopped working there I guess.

[@Relax_MaTs]

how you can be impartial when you have a link selling the viper?

[@ThomasMuehler]

Great question. I'd like to share some behind the scenes to hopefully give you a bit more understanding of what I see. I apologize for the book. But this is a simple question with a complex answer. This is a conversation so if you disagree please let your position be known. As I'd love to discuss further if needed. A common thought process is that if someone is selling something they are being biased. Which can be true, and you should always be on the lookout for that. But it's not always true. The way that I tend to look at things is: FIRST is this a sponsored review? Meaning is this video paid for by a company? If it is, are they talking about that sponsors product or something else? For example, Linus Tech Tips always has sponsors but tends to be talking about another product making it more “objective”. But if they are say sponsored by Razer, and talking about a Razer product, then it being a biased review is more likely. If they don't have a sponsor the likelihood of it being a biased video is low. But there is always an exception to the rule which brings me into the second point. SECOND. If a person owns the company, is an employee of a company, or has stock in a company then they will be biased. As they are directly benefiting from sales. So, those reviews should be seen as advertisements over “reviews”. THIRD is the reviewer ONLY saying positive things and never talking about any negatives? If so that is a red flag. However, sometimes a product is truly so good that the negatives are minimal. But if everything is the best thing since sliced bread, they are constantly plugging affiliate links or telling you to buy it, and other reviews aren't saying the same things then it should put up red flags and avoided. If they are just saying this thing is great but not telling you to buy it while explaining why they think it is great then they likely believe it is that good and don’t have a hidden agenda. FOURTH. I've found most tech reviewers to be relatively unbiased and objective. As they have far more to LOSE if they are seen as biased over what they have to gain. Also, tech reviewers tend to love tech and try a bunch of stuff. Which is what makes them experts. But in order to afford all that tech they either A. need to get those items for "free" for review. I use quotations there because each review actually takes a lot of time and effort so isn’t actually free. B. Have sponsors which help pay for things. Or C. make money from affiliate links, views, or memberships to be able to effectively pay for other products so they can continue to bring their viewers more reviews. Money for me tends to be a means to an end. As any money I make off my KZbin channel goes directly back into my channel by either buying more products to review (or ideally products that people are interested in) or products that make my reviews better such as cameras, lighting, etc. Another aspect that people tend to not realize is that a lot of the products that reviewers get for “free” aren’t something they would normally buy or try. So that incentive allows them to check it out and share it with their audience. As I guarantee you that tech reviewers tend to be using the best of the best and everything that doesn’t compete directly with that “best” is what it is. As it isn’t important to them and the moment they are done with the review they will forget about it. So again, being biased that a particular product is the “best” when it isn’t truly the “best” does nothing positive for them and only harms them. Personally from what I’ve seen on my channel and my thought processes for this channel and video, 1. If the Finalmouse Starlight-12 wasn't only from drops and was sold anywhere for retail price I would have provided that link as well (whether it was an affiliate or non-affiliate link). If you check out my RVU vs Viper V2 Pro or GPX vs Viper V2 Pro I have links for all of those products. Along with literally any other video I do. As that helps me make a very small amount of money to review other products. 2. The reason I don't have a Starlight 12 link is because they are sold from third parties for excessive prices that I don't think it is worth. It retails for $189 which is already excessive and then usually sells third party for >$300. At that price I think I'm doing a disservice to people as they could buy the Viper V2 Pro and a Logitech G Pro X for the same price which are two of the BEST mice on the market and I think would be a better use of their money. 3. Most people (probably greater than 90 percent) don't use those links anyways as either A. they aren't actually buying or B. They are checking the price, or C. will either buy from another retailer or go to Amazon and search it for themselves. Which I'm totally good with. They need to go with what is the best price and most convenient for them. I wouldn’t want it any other way. As again, I’m not here to sell a product but to provide information on it and if that person does end up wanting to buy it (and happens to get it off amazon) and would like to support me and my channel I provide the ability to do so. 4. In the same vein as three above, Associate links are mostly there for viewers to help say thank you to the video creator (for no extra cost) for their hard work. In which they earn an excessively small amount from. For example on Amazon I get about 2 - 5% per sale which equates to about $10 - $30 a month on ALL my videos. This particular video I haven’t made any money from. 5. Just because I have a link to a product where I earn a small commission doesn't mean I'm going to biased towards it. As all my videos have Associate links (as again that helps support my channel which is why they exist and if I could get away with not using them I would). My #1 priority is to be as honest and objective as possible and provide info on a product not sell it. But again money makes this channel exist and if we are only talking about that, I will make FAR more money by being honest and trustworthy and saying when a product is good and when it is crappy over time than if I sell out for a particular product. In that same vein I'm not for sale. No one could ever pay me enough money for me to give a glowing review on a product that I don't believe is actually worthy. 6. The entire reason I got into KZbin is that A. I love tech. B. The video reviews that I saw from other people rarely helped me actually make a decision as I felt they didn't provide me good information on the product. So, I started doing my own reviews where my goal is to show you EVERYTHING about a product. Both the good and the BAD. Most reviews that I end up uploading tend to be positive as spending the time and effort (usually 30 - 40 hours) to make a review on a product that is crap isn't worth my or my viewers time. So I tend to focus on products that people should actually CONSIDER. As again, I'm not here to sell a product. Simply give you information about it so you can make a more informed buying decision. If a product is trending and I try it out and is horrible I will do a review to help dissuade people from buying it and instead a different product that would be a better use of their money. 7. I don’t believe I was biased towards a particular product. If you believe I was I’d love to know exactly why you think that so I can improve future videos. As I pride myself in trying to be as objective as possible. I think I did a good job at listing the pros and cons of both products. I also wasn’t saying you should buy one or the other outside of maybe my conclusion as people tend to want that answered. Instead, my goal was to provide information so YOU the viewer could make an informed decision. This isn’t a sponsored review. I paid for both of these products with my own money. The money I’ve made from this video is $14.57 off ad revenue. That is it. Nothing off the affiliate link. The cost of these products was about $356 (including tax). So I’m still $341.43 in the hole for this video. Which doesn’t bother me as I’m not doing this to make a profit. I did this video because I thought it would be beneficial to people who are considering the Starlight 12 and Viper V2 Pro. As I find both mice to be excellent and they are both in my top 5 mice ever. And most people will likely only be able to afford one and I want them to make the best decision for them. If you actually made it to the end of this. Thank you. You’re a boss. Hopefully, this cleared some things up for you. If you think I was biased in this video (outside of the affiliate link) please let me know. So I can improve. As that is not my intention.

[@Sayakvids]

dayum your knowledge is the best i have seen, thanks for the quality reviews

[@ThomasMuehler]

I appreciate the kind words. Ill keep trying to bring the heat.

[@Axel-lt5jb]

Is it normal that the finalmouse is around 400$ in my country…

[@ThomasMuehler]

It varies substantially. But that price is not all that surprising to me. As the Finalmouse is released in "drops" and in very limited quantities (usually

[@r_se]

if u have both there is a mod base coming soon from craftedmice wuich allows u to put the v2 pro internals in the starlight. so u get the best internals and tech available and the shape, material and weight of finalmouse.

[@ThomasMuehler]

WHAT?!?!?! This sounds AMAZING. Where can I go to learn more about this/follow it so I know when it comes out?

[@HP-Ice]

@@ThomasMuehler Look up finalbase on KZbin, a tutorial is up if you wanna see what the process is like.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@HP-Ice GOAT! My body is ready. Now just gotta wait till he releases the mold. Appreciate you remembering to get back to me. Seriously. Thank you.

[@5here]

so helpful

[@strafe3701]

i have both and the viper just feels so cheap

[@ThomasMuehler]

Structurally, I would agree. As obviously the magnesium alloy is going to feel better. But the clicks, scroll wheel, weight balance, etc. feels way better to me on the Viper V2 Pro over the Starlight-12. I'm constantly disappointed with FInalmouse's QA.

[@serovlade0]

“I perform better because the sensor is better” “The switches are going to give you a faster reaction time” Wrong.

[@ThomasMuehler]

Interesting. Explain your position. Why am I wrong?

[@serovlade0]

@@ThomasMuehler everything after a 3360 is barely noticeable as long as the sensor is properly implemented. The only time I noticed a difference is when I'm using my Viper 8k at 8k hz. But even with that, I really have to try hard to notice the difference. The other time I noticed motion latency is with the MM731's badly implemented 3370 in its earlier firmware revisions. Most of sensor's technical specs doesn't really mean anything relative to accuracy. No one uses 20k dpi. Similarly, no human can surpass 250 ips and 20g. It's like having a car that can go 200mph but the road's speed limit only allows driving up to 100mph.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@serovlade0 I am familiar with "everything after the 3360 are all flawless sensors and there is no difference you can tell" trope. But I disagree for a lot of reasons. One of them being that I notice a huge difference between the 3360 and more modern sensors (HERO, Focus+, Focus Pro, 3370, 3389, and whatever Roccat uses) even when used on the same mouse. Placebo? At first thought maybe. Except, I notice that in all the mice I test (along with consistency across sensors) which makes it unlikely. Okay, so shape, size, weight. Except when I try different mice with the same sensor inside (mostly with the Focus+) I notice increased accuracy that is consistent across different Razer mice that surpasses all other mice. So, again unlikely (but definitely does play a big part). Okay, so software. That I would get behind, but that is paired with the sensor so I think that is a combination of both. I 100% disagree that a sensors technical specs don't mean anything relative to accuracy. As logically that makes zero sense. I understand where you are coming from and agree that the base reasoning there is correct. Yes, nobody uses 20K DPI, and the amount of feet a person can move along with the amount of g forces they can exert is limited. But quick flicks are probably a lot more G's and feet per second than you might imagine (even though they aren't sustained for long). Also, why would companies spend a ton of money on making sensors more accurate if they aren't making them more accurate? Also, why can I feel that increased accuracy such as with the Focus+ compared to the Focus Pro? I'm also not convinced that DPI is as pointless of a spec as people make it out to be. As most people understand the absolute basics of mice technology and nothing past that. That's like me saying well because I know nothing about engines that a Toyota Corolla and a Bugatti Veyron both have engines so are capable of the same speeds. Because well the speed limit is 40 mph and both cars can do 40 mph. But what you aren't considering is the Toyota Corolla and Bugatti Veyron are dramatically different in the way they were made and the purpose they have. They are going to be dramatically different in daily operation even at lower speeds. Yes, you may never get to 200 mph with the Bugatti but the acceleration, accuracy, control, literally everything is going to be dramatically different even at lower speeds. Also, the entire thing works as a singular unit. Am I saying sensors are the only thing that make a mouse more accurate. No, however it is the central part of everything and plays a critical role. But the other things around it (software, shape, size, weight, polling rate, mouse feet, pad, material used, interference, etc.) all play a role. But again the sensor is the central unit and without that working exceptionally the rest of it is going to be meh.

[@serovlade0]

@@ThomasMuehler I was hoping you would mention Motion Sync because that’s the only tech Razer has that differentiates their sensors from the others. However, the rest of the sensor specs are just increased limits that no human being would ever hope to make use of. Increasing the maximum limits does not affect the lower numbers. It’s like using a Viper 8k, but only running it at 1khz. Or watching 1080p video on a 4k tv. I would have been convinced if you actually presented numbers. Or if you’re a pro player who can actually flick fast. Or maybe a kovaaks record holder in even one popular scenario. But there’s just nothing backing up your claims.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@serovlade0 I mention motion sync a lot in my videos. I don't know if it came up in this one or not. I'm pretty sure it did. Which I agree is a huge component. We're just going to have to disagree plan and simple. Which is perfectly fine. I've just found that increasing the top limits DOES increase the lower numbers in a lot of things. Is that the case here or not? Can't say for certain but from my subjective point of view and the research I've seen, and from what I've heard from others I'd say yes it is. But from your point of view the answer is no. Which one of us is right? No clue. What I've found from the research and my subjective testing tends to line up along with the science I know behind the tech. Some of which has been proven with objective findings from Battlenonsense and others who do have the tech to give the numbers. I'm not in a financial place that makes that feasible, but hopefully one day. I also don't go super in-depth in my videos on how I got my answers as people simply don't care. They just want to know the conclusion of what I've found which is mostly subjective but as objective as I can possible make it. I'm also not an expert who physically works on sensors and everything like that professionally. So, I totally understand your hesitance in believing my results and that's just fine. After all I am just some dude on the internet and I'd be doing the same thing if our roles were reversed. For the record I tend to be at least in the top 15% of players for everything I play which isn't "pro" level. I also tend to not find "pro" players as a good resource when it comes to tech. As they rarely know anything about it. And rarely have tried any other products. But they do perform at a high level which gives people the mistaken thought that they know what they are talking about. But that's another subject entirely. I also don't play video games all day long and don't spend the time needed to get the most ridiculous scores and highest ranks. As that is more of a reflection of "grinding" than true skill sometimes. But that's another topic and subject matter altogether as well. And I'm not even saying I could reach the top ranks if I were to spend that time. Again, I've got nothing to prove. You can take what I say for whatever it is worth to you. You gotta go with what you find to be true and what you've researched and found. I'm simply here to provide my two cents on a subject matter and let the other individual do what they will with that information. I also try to get information from other people but they tend to just parrot what others have told them back to me. Which again, is fine, but doesn't help me find new answers and perspectives. I try to be as objective as possible and state anything I don't know for a fact clearly. It doesn't always happen the way I would ideally like. But hopefully one day I can provide concrete purely objective numbers to back up what I am feeling when I test things out. Over time I've learned to trust my instinct as when I do find objective numbers for things they tend to correlate to my subjective findings and what I'm feeling. Making me correctly or incorrectly believe that they tend to be correct even if my actual reasoning is not.

[@yytan3330]

I'm an owner of both, but being an owner of multiple mice. I don't ever believe there is a winner. The starlights have horrible QC in the first batches but they were slightly improved after despite retaining the scroll wheel issues. Some of people hate how the DPI isn't adjustable but that's fine for some people as most people standardize 400,800,1600. I'm not a fan of more useless bloatware. Customer service takes forever, I have seen tons of comments about USB hub, RF reception issues even though I never experienced any of these. I think this mouse is for people who believe the shape outweighs the cons I've stated about or for people with deep pockets. Weight is not important to me as i believe you can adjust the dpi.... The battery life is the only other notable point for me as I gone through weeks without charging it, but yes this is my daily driver over the RVU. I owned many razer products before this as well, they do last quite awhile however I wasn't exempt from their array of issues either. I had a basilisk hyperspeed that lost reception every hour or so, even the in middle of games. However if you fall within the warranty period, they will easily replace it and you are not subjected to absurd charges. I noticed an improvement from the original firmware to 1.2.6. I would have never continued using the starlights, if it wasn't for this. At the end of the day, pick your poison.

[@ThomasMuehler]

For the most part I completely agree with everything you just said. Very good rundown! Definitely agree there is no perfect mouse. And of course with mice being so personal something that may be “perfect” for one person won’t be for someone else. I also agree that the new firmware changes with the Finalmouse dramatically changed the Starlights and made a huge difference on whether I continued using them or not. But still can’t personally get past the excellence of the Viper V2 Pro. Looking forward to when the Viper Mini Ultimate (or whatever it will be called) and trying it out. As I think it’s going to be a monster.

[@yytan3330]

@@ThomasMuehler I like to say the same for your video, I definitely have to agree on the sensor and switches being alot better than the starlights. Razer is definitely ahead in terms of technology as they don't aim to appeal to a niche market.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@yytan3330 I think the biggest thing holding Razer back is they don't have a mouse that has a shape that is universally loved that is also lightweight like Logitech does with the G Pro Wireless/Superlight. In general I think the weakest part of Razer (for their mice) is their shapes are kind of hit or miss for people. But have been one of my favorites (in the mouse game) for a few years now. As they continue to push the envelope tech wise. If only I could have the tech of the Razer Viper V2 Pro on a Starlight 12. That would be amazing.

[@Pix3l89]

He said click click 😆😆

[@ThomasMuehler]

The HORROR! lol

[@Pix3l89]

Love the comparison but how different is it from the viper ultimate?

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@Pix3l89 I have a comparison where I compare the Viper Ultimate with the Viper V2 Pro that I'd recommend checking out. But main points for quick summary would be that I find the Viper V2 Pro to be a better mouse overall. Sensor is a lot better, weight is in the ideal range for most (60 grams), overall weight balance is superior (as it is better balanced) which makes a huge difference, mice feet glide better and are smoother, better battery life, clicks feel similar as does the scroll wheel. On/off function is unique and appreciated. USB C for charging over dock. No RGB. Viper Ultimate tends to go on sale regularly these days making it A LOT more inexpensive and gets you 80% of the way there.

[@jawadbakhshi31]

Good review was waiting for this comparison

[@ThomasMuehler]

I'm glad you enjoyed it. Which one would you go with or have gone with?

[@jawadbakhshi31]

@@ThomasMuehler I just purchased razer v2 pro but I’ll buy starlight 12 Poseidon once I can actually find one for normal price 😂. That’s the only reason I didn’t purchase it. I use steel series arox 3 for fps games and also steel series rival 605 wireless for that third button 🤷🏻‍♂️ I’m weird

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@jawadbakhshi31 Naw, not weird. I totally get it. Different mice for different uses I like it. I do that for a bunch of different things since I'm blessed tech wise. What are your thoughts on the Viper V2 Pro thus far?

[@jawadbakhshi31]

@@ThomasMuehler still waiting for it to come from Amazon. It was between that and super light but I rather get the lighter mouse and they both pretty much are the same. I’m also used to razers weird software so also why I went with it. When I get it I’ll be back and let you know how it feels for fps games

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@jawadbakhshi31 I'm looking forward too hearing your thoughts. I think you made the right choice between the Superlight. Assuming the shape works for you. As I think the Viper V2 Pro is the superior mouse.

[@Ryn0_333]

I have both of these mice and for me it comes down to shape. The Starlight 12 just feels a lot better in the hands, on the sides mostly. The weight isn't that big for me between the two. I mained the RVU before getting the S12 and that weight jump was massive. As for the sensors, both feel similar. As for latency, that is a different story. I do notice a latency jump from the S12 vs the RVU or RVV2P. Side note: the asymmetrical debounce is talking about the switches, not the sensor. So basically when you depress M1 or M2, there is supposedly 0ms and the debounce will be 12ms (with the 1.2.6 update) to stop double clicking while keeping low latency for clicks. The scroll wheels on the S12 are pretty bad. I get ghost movement on mine for sure. Other than that I don't mind the wheel feel or functionality but the ghost is terrible. Quality and for the money, the RVV2P wins easy. However, I main the S12 and I do prefer it over the RV but mainly because of the feel. Edit: I forgot about the S12 RF issues. I have to keep my phone at least 9 feet away to reduce interference. I was skipping in game and had no idea why, I narrowed it down to my phone being in my pocket and that solved my problem bit it is a pain. Side Side Note: The warranty for the S12 is basically lifetime but you have to pay for shipping after the first year. I don't think that is that bad, in fact I think it's kind of cool. At least that's how I understand it.

[@ThomasMuehler]

Ah man, I love the awesome rundown! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. If I didn’t make it clear in the video, I thought that I made it clear that I was talking about the switches not the sensor. The S12 does feel great with the magnesium alloy and shape. So totally agree on that. Fascinating about the phone. Appreciate you sharing that part. I’m wondering if that is a defect. I’ll have to do some testing with mine to see if that causes any issues. I haven’t noticed that. I guess I’ll have to look into that (the warranty). You bring up a good point.

[@vincere13]

Hey Thomas, hope everything is well with you. Came here to answer your questions about how the xm1 feels (have had it for a week and a half now), at least in comparison to the gpx (20.5x10.5 hands and claw grip). To make this easy, I will point out just the more important things: - The xm1 feels much more low profile from the middle to the front tip of the mouse, we all know it is, but it feels even smaller than I expected, most of it because of the second point. - The curved sides on the xm1 feel amazing, especially in comparison to the almost flat sides of the gpx. When you first look at the xm1, it doesnt look like a diamond shape, but when you turn it upside down or grip it, oh believe me, it IS a diamond shape. It gives so much grip and comfort, I always feel like I have control over my mouse(especially paired with the third point). - The back hump is really amazing for comfort and claw grip, I always felt like my gpx either took away all my mobility, or was too far front to give me stability, having that wide back hump is really a different experience, because it gives me full stability without making my fingers basically unable to micro adjust. - The heavier weight is definitely noticeable, especially when Im using high sens, but I dont think it made my aim any worse, I just wasn't used to it after using the gpx for 5+ months. - The cable is indeed not a problem with a bungee, although, it is so flexible, that if you give it too much slack, it WILL go under your mouse when swiping. - Finally, I think the clicks are better on the main buttons and side buttons, but the scrollwhell is a little too hard to press (could be a flaw of my copy). And about stock feet, it is a little faster than the gpx's, but since it is heavier, it will feel basically identical. Those are the impressions I've had until now. It's important to have in mind that the xm1r improves in all the buttons and feet, so it should be even better. And also, the xm2w is right around the corner, so you might wanna wait for it, or maybe, get both mice to make a video similar to the 'burst pro versus pro air' one.

[@ThomasMuehler]

Oh man, I deeply appreciate you taking the time to write this all out. Very well written. You're making me really want to try one. I think I may take your suggestion and just wait for the XM2W or who knows maybe I'll just have to bite the bullet. Especially, since the cord seems to be really good. Again, thanks very much. This was very helpful.

[@vincere13]

@@ThomasMuehler You're welcome, bro. It was the least I could do, since you checked out my channel, hope you keep growing, much love.

[@ThomasMuehler]

@@vincere13 Right back at you man! Looks like you've got some new videos up. I'll definitely check them out.

[@DerOberhacker]

for the Viper, can I also save the settings on the mouse, or do I always have to have the software running in the background?

[@ThomasMuehler]

Yes, you can save the settings to the mouse and don't need to have the software running. In fact, I had to reinstall windows on my main gaming PC and I don't even have synapse installed and my Viper V2 Pro at 4,000 Hz (with hyper polling dongle) and Deathadder V2 Pro work normally with my saved settings.