I was playing TTRPGs Wrong🙃 this whole time… (Dragonbane session 2)

[@shivamutreja6427]

I just discovered Dragonbane as well. It hits the perfect balance between Shadowdark and 5e for me.

[@FamilyTableTop]

@@shivamutreja6427 yes - 👍 I think that’s why my group likes it so much.

[@moshtradamus92]

Pressure is off and you are finally free! Don't worry, it's not your fault (I blame 5e for putting new GMs in this predicament). Players feed off that energy; both positive/laid back (now) and negative/anxious (then). Love watching your growth over time; I'm sure your players/family appreciate it more than you know!

[@antomanifesto]

This is what I got out of Wildsea, for the first time everything just clicked into place... glad that you've found the game that does this for you!

[@antigrav6004]

I get where you're coming from. Your previous mindset was the railroad, thinking its all on you to make the experience while when you A) trust your players enough to let them make the decisions and B) embrace chaos and roll with the punches. I had that (thankfully) on one of my first sessions. They went totally off the rails and managed to make it so much more fun.

[@thanganbabp5570]

I'm glad you've been able to take some pressure off yourself. I think the biggest issue with modern D&D culture is that DMs are taught to have too much expected of them and then they burn out.

[@satori2890]

I said during the Livestream Thursday that DM ing and playing should*BOTH be Inner Child Time

[@dadmanfatherguy]

Lucky you, it took me 12 years of searching for my ideal system before I discovered Dragonbane! (which has become a fast favorite at my table)

[@andrewthomas7202]

I’m so glad for you that you had that epiphany! Also sounds like you have great players who understand that you’re not supposed to be their court jester lol. Thanks again for a great video in the tabletop game space.

[@KyrndomWolf]

D&D Ttrpg has been played wrong after every WOTC Rule rendition after D&D 2E. Only saved by a few real good DM's but even they had trouble with it all. Correct ttrpg is 3 pillars: Exploration Combat and Sales & trades of loot.

[@TheK5K]

You've got it. When people were saying one of the DM's tasks is to make sure *everyone* is having fun - it should include *you*! Also, relaxing and not treating it like a chore or job allows the DM to relax and have that fun, not being stressed about what strange or unusual happenings they're managing within the game. You could do this with any system, I'm glad you've found Dragonbane works for you and your family.

[@FamilyTableTop]

You’re totally right - we could be playing a different system and I am sure it would go way better. I do like Dragonbane and I’m happy my players are having g fun with it.

[@cassidy944]

100%, the entire table is responsible for everyone having a good time! This is something I try to say to the tables I run games for.

[@adam_orkcol]

Your dedication to improving at a hobby you enjoy is inspirational. Especially when being a gm is for other people.

[@KristerPersson]

GM-ing Dragonbane has given me the same feelings I had when we played the original Drakar och Demoner in the 80's. It's fun, it's easy, and it's low pressure. Since I came back to playing RPGs in 2015, I've been playing lore heavy and/or investigation heavy games, and I realize now how much of a toll it has taken on me.

[@FamilyTableTop]

Which games are lore/investigation heavy?

[@KristerPersson]

@FamilyTableTop Symbaroum and Call of Cthulhu

[@EpicEmpires-pb7zv]

When my brother and I started playing Basic D&D in 1981 we did a pile of stuff wrong and had a great time doing it! Players will make their own fun if you let them drive the direction of the game. The Dragonbane boxed set is incredible value for money and the rules are so well written. It's a game made to be played, easy to learn, and so easy to run compared to many other rpgs.

[@OkayestGM]

So happy it was another good one! Like I had said before .. you are playing too and if you have fun it is infectious.

[@FamilyTableTop]

Really helpful advice- I was treating the player/dm relationship like it was hosting a party (sort of like work).

[@danacoleman4007]

sounds very familiar. thank you for putting it into words! this applies to much of my life. I hope to remember this excellent advice!

[@wickedly1]

Yeah, it is actually part of being an entertainer. Comedian Bo Burnham talked about it almost a decade ago on his special, where he wants to make sure his audience comes to his shows and have the fun they deserve, but it was eating him up. Took some time for him to come back for Inside to just do his own thing, and his own thing was just as fun (if not more fun) than his previous stuff because he was having fun with it. But the previous way he was doing it was stressing him out to no end. I mentioned previously that you, as a DM, have fun when your players have fun. That is true, if your players were not having fun right now, you would probably be feeling pretty bad. But, if you come in with the expectation that your passion and fun comes first, those emotions bleed into your game and raise everyone's mood (or diminishes it if you're in an irritable mood). You're feeling great about how the game is going, and chances are your players are too, and it comes out in your demeanor. It becomes a self-sustaining feedback loop that just elevates the game's quality and alleviates your stress. If this is the way you and your players are going to run from now on, good on you! I am glad you found a stride that is good for you and your group! As DMs, we can take the piss out of ourselves just trying to figure this hobby out. Almost twenty years in, I still feel like I am the worst DM in the world at times for various reasons. But, most of the time, it has to do with my players feeling like they aren't having a good time. Once they do, I do, because I know the feedback loop will do it's job.

[@FamilyTableTop]

I like the way you explain as being similar to a feedback loop - that seems to be pretty accurate.

[@Renkaru]

I've been DMing since the early 2000s, and I've found pretty early on if I'm not having fun, neither are the players. The DM is a player as well, just with a different role. When I started not overthink things, and just go with the flow with most games, we all had a blast!

[@blkholestudio]

A bit late to the party so I hope you'll read the comment. As a fellow GM a book which also may help you as a new GM is maybe "So You Want To Be A Game Master" by Justin Alexander. Also don't put too much blame on yourself, since in my opinion d&d 5e is not very suited for either new DMs or new players. It is very stat heavy and you have so much min-max'ing you can do and you can lose yourself and just an absurd amount of time with that. The video was pretty interesting since I'm going to use Dragonbane as a system to play a one-shot with 4 family members over christmas, all new to TTRPGs and where 2 players are over 60 and 1 player has not even played a video game rpg ever. So, I hope that it will be relatively easy for them to get the rules. I was not even thinking of running 5e with them because the character sheet alone would just overwhelm them. At least your video is giving me some indication of hope that it will work. XD

[@FamilyTableTop]

@@blkholestudio thank you so much for your encouragement. That’s really kind of you. I am so excited to hear that you are going to be playing a Dragonbane campaign with some of your family over Christmas. I think Dragonbane is a great system to get players interested into TTRPGS - the forward facing mechanics combined with the heroic abilities and spells make the game system a perfect mix of complexity and simple design. I love this game system. Make sure you have your players perform the leveling up after the session - that is an essential aspect of the play loop and I think it helps new players to understand that the game is about progression and character growth. We implemented the house rule that when any player at the table rolls a Dragon (1) or a Demon (20) - each player at the table marks that skill for potential advancement at the end of the session. This homebrew mechanic makes other players invested in each other’s success and failure. Would you mind keeping me posted about your family game? I would love to hear how it goes. Are you on Discord?

[@jsrock91]

Yes, and you can read all de GM parts of old school dnd. It's basically an editorial issue of 5e. Procedural tabletop mechanics (like torch management), to rule dungeon crawls, overland travels (hex or point crawls) IMHO, I would recommend you solo roleplay. The Solo Game Master's Guide is awesome. Why? Because it makes prep so much fun! And it isn't prep in mainstream 5e terms. You can have tools to improvise with depth and amplitude in the emergent narrative. I am also a Dragonbane fan!!!

[@danielsommerlykke9475]

Yes only prep one location at a time, not 6. Ask your player's where they are going next and then they can't change their minds after 24 hours real time, they went there.

[@LebonMJ]

🔥 Nice realization, go on playing !

[@Malkuth-Gaming]

A word of warning about the Riddermound... it might seem like an easy first adventure.. it can be really deadly if you roll for what the monster inside uses its action for... My poor knight got fearlocked, chilled and then promplty died :P

[@FamilyTableTop]

@@Malkuth-Gaming thank you for warning me - I will try to be careful.

[@michaelsheppard8939]

I think that's a great warning generally for Dragonbane! It looks lite, but combat is dangerous! Especially compared with 5E.

[@bassguitar2709]

really enjoyed DBane with my crew, I've been constantly surprised at how many left turns the players take, from hiding during battles while others are getting slapped, the combat is really fast, the standees are useful, they know what their good and bad at, everyone understands the initiative turn order, lots of laughs. My only struggle is steering them back onto larger quest, all the minor skirmishes have been great fun, sounds like you're having a similar experience! Can't wait for the Expansion Campaign dropping soon from FreeLeague

[@Valdagast]

A lot of the things you like comes from the Dragonbane pedigree - Runequest was the first to have no character classes and armor subtracting damage.

[@jcraigwilliams70]

I'm one of those who always says "there's no wrong way to play, " but I also add "So long as *you and your players* are having fun." So if you weren't having fun, yeah, I guess you were playing "wrong" or at least "wrong for you." It caught my attention when you mentioned telling your players "oh, I only prepared this one location. Is it OK if we just stay here?" That's how I always play. I plan very loosely. I won't detail a whole map, I'll detail one tiny spot and develop the rest only as it comes up. My experience has always been that the more you prepare in advance, the more time you're wasting, because players rarely do what you anticipate.

[@satori2890]

Interestingly my prep for tonight was Faction Generation and NPC magic items cards, which are a blast to roll up in SD. I use Knaves tables for NPC Personalities and goals, and Knaves Faction Generator too

[@FamilyTableTop]

Thank you for reminding me about Knave 2 NPC tables - that’s helpful.

[@satori2890]

@@FamilyTableTop Spend an afternoon rereading Knave. I'm using it as a DM Aid because some of its 100 tables are wilder than SD

[@Glazius7]

Well, I'm glad you made it to the other side of that. I've been following you for a while and this has made a lot of your previous videos make a lot more sense. It's hard to draw the line between... I guess you could call it being responsible and being in control? If somebody is trying to play the game but not having fun then you're there to help if you can, but as a game everyone is there to get their own fun out of it by their own power. That's the point of a game, right? Everybody's there to have fun playing the game, even if they have setbacks, even if they lose - it's more important to have fun playing the game than it is to win, because while victory is there to give purpose to a game, the reason anybody "plays a game" as a social activity is to have fun. Okay, the ref isn't there to have fun, and you are the ref, but you're also a player, and ideally you don't have to spend a lot of time being a ref and you can be a player first. The ideal is that you find a system that guides you well in playing the world without needing to worry about being a ref.

[@VicSicily]

It's all coming together man. Very cool! You're really on the right track now! How are you finding the 1:1 time aspect, I remember a few videos ago I remember you saying a shopping session wasn't so great, remember with this sort of time keeping they could message you and each other between sessions saying hey I go to the shop and I do x etc.

[@michaelsheppard8939]

The combo of finding a funner way to play and finding a great system is awesome! Congrats!

[@lolsonchciwy5022]

Mate... What an irony, we gotcha right from the begining 😂 Glad to see you finally made all those self-reflections and thousands upon thousands of lectures into life! As always : Have a great time, mate! Godspeed, y'all!

[@lolsonchciwy5022]

'Bout playin' wrong Recent one is that a year ago I was afraid to allow players to venture into Hellscape or something like that - thus I encouraged play in the very funny city (ie. loads of power and political play, secret societies and labs, megadungeon etc etc). One player had really awesome moments, other tried to but openely refused to participate in the city's ones. Thus it was just a slog... But then we spoke and said "yea, let's venture into this nightmare". Short to say, they got handled. But afterwards we concluded the first part of campaign with "yea, you've ventured through the Hell's Pit, found your loved one, almost died doing it and now we've got more plots and points of entry into the second part than we really want to..." Well, they also commented on the fact that once I gave up on safeguarding their lives things went crazy and we almost ended our story bitterly. Thanks God, they miraculously survived. 'Twas like their dice and also mine, supported them or have been an extension of their own limbs. Add some good post-rock (A Year of No Light), a dark colloseum and some kind of horned giant trying to slay them. Perfect conclusion 💪

[@neiana]

I really look forward to playing Dragonbane, but I've got to get my players through D&D and Pathfinder beginner adventures since that's how we started lol

[@knightwolf4612]

The players are in charge of having a good time in the game, not the GM's.

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

I'd like to recommend a couple of books which may help in setting the proper mindset: - Arbiter of Worlds by Alexander Macris - The Living Campaign by John N McGowan

[@FamilyTableTop]

@@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork I have the Arbiter of Worlds book - I need to finish it… Thank you for the recommendation of The Living Campaign - I will look it up.

[@petegiant]

Referee is a better term imho.

[@CrimsonCreed-ct5dk]

As the GM, there’s a lot of pressure, warranted or not, that is placed upon that role. It has taken me a long time of trial and error, to get where we are now when we play. I’ve learned to provide a loose story that allows the players to ebb and flow through it, making it their own. But it’s their story. The tensions, the blessings and the consequences. Much like life, with unending teachable moments. And we talk about everything in life with the safeguard of the Bible and a Christian worldview as our standard. The wonderful thing is that it flows over into everyday real life. Our table time becomes a natural part of doing life in the world and my kids and extended family members get it, sometimes better than I do.

[@FamilyTableTop]

@@CrimsonCreed-ct5dk how many players do you have in your game? Are all of your players Christian?

[@CrimsonCreed-ct5dk]

It fluctuates. We typically have 4 players which are my kids and all are Christian. When cousins and friends join in we can have up to 7-8, two of which are not Christians. We play on average, two times a week Thur and Sat. sometimes more, but we are together most days as the friends come from broken families and enjoy hanging out at our house. My wife and I are seeing how it is becoming more of a ministry now. We are praying and hoping to expand in the future, trusting God and where He will lead us. All that to say, we are having a ton of fun, including myself as the DM while making positive impact, we hope.

[@scottgozdzialski6478]

DnDshorts just did a video on bad DM traits. The last one was what you were describing. A lot of DMs put all this stuff on their shoulders. They watch Critical Roll and other pro live streams and think they need to be there or some other idea. It is not just you a lot of people start DMing this way.

[@DMTalesTTRPG]

Dragonbane is great. BUT.. not a starter box…it’s the game.

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Yes I played it wrong for awhile. I used to play DM vs Players, that is wrong. I have not tried Dragonbane yet. The 5e bard is kinda lame for inspiration imho

[@VicSicily]

Yes....Yesssssss.

[@Zr0din]

I'm missing it. What did you feel you were doing wrong that was fixed? Oh, the expectation thing? I admit Dragonbane looks GREAT (only played it once). Just the way the Bestiary - and rolling what the opponents do/ the monster auto hits/ the way roll low makes sense- know your target in advance (most of the time)/ the treasure system with the cards/ maybe even the initiative card system and switching... so many great things that I WANT in D&D. I'm really comfortable with 5e and am working to make sure the 2024 stuff is good, but Dragonbane, Nimble, ToV... and fitting that stuff into a VTT so I can play with distant friends... Probably not going to happen 1. Dragonbane - Bestiary with rolling what the monsters do and all that stuff 2. ToV - Luck and Doom points auto tracked in the VTT for each player Also, the spell categorization system is better 3. Nimble's speed of use and simplification in combat - just roll damage, 4. Nimble's spell system is even simpler!

[@cremsonnicholls9298]

Have you ever played a tabletop roleplaying game wrong? Yeah, I think you illustrate a bit of common ground between the two of us in this video in fact. Like you, I had an epiphany about a year ago now when I got back into being a game master following taking a break for about a year and some change. The break being due to my infamous 5-ish year span of being a DM for 5th edition D&D that I've mentioned before in other comments. I needed a break and told myself I wouldn't Game Master for a whole year. And take a break I did. Instead I played the video game League of Legends, but that's another story for another time. The TLDR and reminder of the 5 year campaign I ran is best summarized like this: I spent 5 years trying to find "the right way" to play 5th edition Dungeons and Dragons. I tried Rules As Written (Which is laughable in hindsight for me, looking at how "interpretative" the language of the game is) and with homebrew. I built over a dozen adventures with four different groups of people in different combinations of group size. I mixed up an incredibly ambitious setting, or three. I played and DM'd. And I even wrote out 100 pages of mixed lore and mechanics for a supplemental system that localized and interpreted the "Flowmotion" mechanics from the Kingdom Hearts series to my setting. Usable with 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons as well as 5th edition. Suffice to say, I tried everything including mixing in another system I found more enjoyable to try and "make sure my players had fun." While at the same time, biting off more than I could chew and devoting a lot of my life to playing tabletop roleplaying games in a way that was unhealthy and unproductive. Though I think I ultimately gained a lot through that learning experience. I learned that I took my own fun out of the equation by trying to put in a bunch of stuff my friends found fun. In service to the idea that I was doing it for those players. I ruined the games for myself in the process by pursuing that fun for others" experience. Even as a player, I let other people take the lead and didn't make characters that inspired and motivated me to play. Just tried combinations that seem both well written (Most of my characters had backstories of 3-10 pages during that era to help me get into character, quirk of the play groups) and at the same time shallow in fun for me personally because they lacked that spark of a character I genuinely wanted to play. The adventures too. And in those many ways, I was not playing the game. But the meta I set up for myself that I believed the game was. And which therefore took me out of the experience that was actually found at the table. And in that way, by not playing the game, I was in fact playing the game wrong. If that makes any sense and you follow me. With any luck, I'll never DM 5e again. Or at least, I won't DM it in an unhealthy way like what I did back then. And I think that gets to the core of what you're saying in this video. Making a goal oriented change for what you expected of yourself at the table unlocked the fun you were missing out on all along. In your case, it seems like you practiced letting go of what was making you self-conscious and stressed about your performance at the table. Unhealthy expectations of yourself. And even just hearing you talk in the video here, man! You already sound more relaxed and less stressed! You did good. My story ends on a bit of a happy note. In that it isn't over, the pages and chapters are still being written. Right now, I'm a year into designing a setting I'm really proud of, or at least this is the latest year in building a setting that iterates on the same setting I've ultimately been writing since middle school. Something like 18 years now. Since before I really grasped what a tabletop roleplaying games were. I also completed a 1 year long Pathfinder 1e (exploration-style) campaign and now I'm spending more time focused on building that project, and on time with my family. Started doing more Jigsaw puzzles this year with them, like we used to about when I was growing up. And the future looks bright. I hope my story one was helpful. Sounds like you've got a good game to look forward to this coming weekend Nate, congrats!

[@sirguy6678]

Interesting thought project. TTRPG “rules” are often just a guideline- it’s a lot of pressure if you are the dog and pony show for everyone’s else’s enjoyment- to quote Obi won “ You have just taken your first steps into a larger world…” now “ have fun” has more meaning to you

[@ronwisegamgee]

Another way I think you can play TTRPGs wrong is to play in a style that runs contrary to the player's preferences. If you have a bunch of players that like to min-max their characters for combat encounters and you run investigation-style or heavy RP sessions for them, I think you're playing TTRPGs wrong in that regard. Like with stand-up comedy, you have to know your audience.