I was WRONG... The Girth Hitch Masterpoint Climbing Belay Setup.

[@jerthebear27]

Easily the most underrated climbing KZbin channel, just such high quality informative content. Think I’ve watched every one of your videos by now.

[@JBMountainSkills]

That's super kind :)

[@cragbum87]

I think you did it a while ago, but thank you for upgrading your microphone. Super windy in this video but your audio is crystal clear. Nice work all around.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Thanks for noticing!

[@samuelbuettner1214]

Ah that’s what’s different

[@theclimbingtourist4404]

Which mic did you use?

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@theclimbingtourist4404 Rode Wireless Go.

[@shatter98]

The new version of Climbing Anchors by John Long recommends the Girth X instead of girthhitch in most situations. Forces to make it slip are way higher. Pages 156-160 if you are interested.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

Yeah, coz the twist means that the broken strand is being subjected to more friction from the good side, reducing slippage!! I remember Ryan Jenks or AlpineSavvy covering it a few months back.

[@PeterPan-nu2zj]

I was wondering the same thing. How to Rock and Alpine Club did a video some time ago on the girth hitch master point where he recommends doing a magic X before the girth hitch (doesn't slip apparently) : kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpirnXSiqsiFrMU What are your thoughts on that ?

[@NPC-fl3gq]

@@PeterPan-nu2zj The magic x made a big difference when using dyneema from memory, but not so much for nylon, and as it doesn't use much more material to do you may as well get into the habit of using it IMO* *Not legal advice 😂

[@tjb8841]

Exactly, this is what I do now: Like Jeb says, slipping isn’t a huge concern in the real world, and then you can reduce it by using the X, and using H or I beam stock carabiners. I also have a Mammut Aramid sling, which not only is more cut resistant, it also is rough, so I assume will reduce slipping in the hitch.

[@doughobbs7706]

Am so glad you mentioned the winter aspect - this is why I moved to the G-H-MP in winter....with gloves and when things freeze up its really easy to adjust and dismantle.

[@JBMountainSkills]

One of the biggest pluses I think!

[@TonySpinach]

I could listen to you talk all day long, so relaxing and informative

[@JBMountainSkills]

Very kind :)

[@Mitzbergatc]

Similarly, a clove hitch instead of girth hitch works marvels too. Releases just as well, and it won't slip like the girth would (not that the girth would slip much on a shock, anyway).

[@JBMountainSkills]

Very true :)

[@stuarthwangbo4876]

That’s the first thing I thought when I saw the girth hitch set up. I wonder if anyone has tested it?

[@herpfar7651]

@@stuarthwangbo4876 Yepp. Chris Semmel and Stefan Blochum did some extensive testing with a factor 2 fall scenario - no problem with Dyneema 10 mm slings. Bergundsteigen published an article about it. Both girth and clove work just fine. Girth cleaner and nicer to put set up.

[@mloskot]

I'm glad I've found your channel. The content and your explanations are absolute gem!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Very kind, glad you like it!

[@grantwatson927]

I agree with most, if not all of the thoughts expressed here. I would suggest another advantage to the girth hitch master point: It consumes less material (cord/sling) than even an overhand BFK. Depending on the circumstances, that can be a big deal.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah great point, that can make an important difference to the angle of a belay setup, or just make it easier to tie :)

[@Govanification]

This is a big one for me. Bolted anchor setup with just a single alpine draw and a locker if you're running low on gear or in my case forgot to grab the other anchor setup from partner before setting off on the next pitch of a multi.

[@seanbjornsson]

I second this! This is the primary reason I use the girth hitch anchor.

[@davidweil8070]

Great video! I think you covered the pros and cons of this setup very nicely.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Cheers!

[@mikefarthing]

Love this setup for ease of my partner breaking the anchor down, and/or conserving short material that you can barely knot. But when I first started using it i had to train my brain to not immediately clove right into the master point carabiner!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah good point, me too!

[@dylandtime]

“What on earth has this got to do with belays” LOLOL Loved the philosophical opening my dude!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you liked it!

[@FreeFlyerUk]

You "could" get around the shelf collapse issue by putting the Shelf carabiner in FIRST, them Larksfooting your Masterpoint carabiner in afterwards.

[@JBMountainSkills]

My brain hurts 😂

[@FreeFlyerUk]

​@@JBMountainSkills😂 Just you wait untll you're my age 😂😂😂 Love your videos

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@FreeFlyerUk 😂

[@radddogg]

Another benefit is that it uses less sling, so it's good for improving your angles if needed

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yep, good point!

[@AndrewBenham]

Another benefit I find is in some situations if you don't have quite enough sling to easily tie an overhand this option uses less of the sling up.

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@AndrewBenham yeah that’s super helpful some times!

[@markcane-8396]

Now you've started using it, what considerations (if any) would make you go back for the overhand knot for a specifc pitch/set up?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Mostly I still prefer a standard master point when working with people new to building belays etc.

[@ChrisMartin-n3c]

Risk awareness and problem solving are one of the things I love about climbing. "Certainty is a closing of the mind. To create something new you must have doubt." ~Milton Glaser

[@JBMountainSkills]

Love it!

[@mattmazzoni6664]

I use this method for multipitch but use either a steel or aluminium ring instead of carabiner. Clove hitch on the two anchor points would add extra redundancy I think. Risk of same colour carabiner is that it might get removed by mistake.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Using a ring is a neat idea, not something we see here in the UK. I guess a clip is just a bit more flexible.

[@edwardpage9996]

If your just single pitch climbing and using this set-up to link two bits of gear for an out of reach setup. Would it be OK to just run the rope through the master point carabiner to clove back to you as there's nothing else in it? Or do you still need an extra one added for yourself?

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@edwardpage9996 you could just run it through the master point clip.

[@matthewlloyd2055]

clove hitch master point with a second snapgate through the same hitch is ace. waggle the two biners apart and the clove comes right out.

[@marchd1997]

I think this method is particularly useful when your sling is too short for doing other standard belay setups. An alternative (that you have shown before) is to do a simple overhand an clipping both eyes, which saves a carabeaner but is much more of a faff. I was also surprised to find out in a Howknotto video that the overhand method also slipps at quite low forces, so that is not a reason to choose between these methods

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah that’s a very good point 💪

[@roccotedesco4582]

Why do you normally belay on the shelf?

[@JBMountainSkills]

It can be nice to separate things a little especially when working with two climbers. Just gives things a little more space and clarity.

[@Friendfox]

I never use the shelf on the girth hitch power point, the power point is the girthed carabiner, and everything (follower, clove, belay device) is clipped to that carabiner (to the dismay of the metal-on-metal naysayers).

[@JBMountainSkills]

Realistically I don’t think anyone does, who understands the system.

[@brightmatter7]

Why would ‘understanding the system’ lead you to never use the shelf? Could improve clarity esp for a new follower arriving at the setup

[@greglamb4225]

Did you watch the video? He literally covers this exact thing

[@marknugent7716]

Such a well put together video I always learn from your videos!!!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Very kind :)

[@PetegNZ]

Can you use it with three bits of gear? Need a longer sling, obviously....

[@angrybirder9983]

It's possible with as many pieces as you want.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yup, for sure :)

[@crewdoglm]

I like this concept as well as the version girth-hitching a 2" rap ring in there. Pretty humorous how social media had gone to debating anchors where "if one piece fails" is implied to be this really important contingency - as if lead falls directly onto the anchor actually happen. In more than 30 years I've never known of, or even heard of, that happening except for 1 tale of horror on ice. If we're going what-if-it to death, you're better off putting an upward directional on the belayer himself/herself as you're much more likely in an epic fall to get yanked straight up violently and rearranging the anchor by ending up above it. That does happen.

[@jimgordon9516]

@jbmountainskills Thanks for these brilliant vids.. I may be missing something but why does this need to use an extra carabiner? If you clove hitch the person who will be moving off last (depending on whether you're swinging leads) into it will that not work? I can't see the danger in opening the gate?

[@JBMountainSkills]

You're right that you don't HAVE to, but I think it'd be remiss of me to suggest opening a carabiner with people attached to it. That for sure may be ok in some circumstances, but in others not so much and that of course requires a level of judgement that some people are capable of and others... So yes it will work, but maybe not "gold standards" whatever that may be!

[@jimgordon9516]

@JBMountainSkills Yes agreed, I was thinking there are ways you wouldn't need to be opening gates with anything else attached through using the shelf and having the main crab there to potentially put your second on last...whilst noting comments about the shelf! Thanks again for these vids, they really are great

[@angrybirder9983]

Indeed, this was the first trad anchor I was taught as a beginner and I don't see a reason to not teach it to beginners. You can tell them to be careful with the shelf or just don't tell them about the shelf option to begin with if that's a concern for you. There are even ways to omit some of the carabiners at the pieces. This saves gear and in some cases, it's genuinely better than a biner if it would be loaded over an edge or doesn't fit at all (i.e. deeply recessed pitons). This works for cams and pitons (and round-stock glue-in bolts, but if you have bolts, you don't need to equalise), but not for nuts (too small bending radius over the cable). With a sling, you can girth hitch it directly to the first piece and use a biner for the second. Or, if you want a 2-piece achor with minimal carabiners, you can pass the sling through the second piece and pull it down to the master point, where you make a girth hitch with all strands. Or you use a cord instead of a string, then you can open the cord, thread it through the pieces and then close the loop again.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah, I’m still not convinced that on trad it should be the default. You’re right about threading gear but that does require extra thought over using a clip the vast majority of the time.

[@angrybirder9983]

@@JBMountainSkills What is your reason why it shouldn't be the default trad anchor? I mean, it's easy to set up, easy to tear down, easy to equalise and takes any number of pieces.

[@mrnosy1]

Could you make a video on what your options are if you're multi-pitch abseiling and the rope gets stuck on the way down? Apologies if you've discussed this before! Love the videos, you're definitely my go to source 😁

[@JBMountainSkills]

I think I did once if you do a search… I did one when my ropes got stuck I think 😂

[@mrnosy1]

@@JBMountainSkills Ah, silly me. I just found it, thank you! I guess if you've only got one strand and there are no simple options and cutting the rope is no option you might just try calling mountain rescue... I have wondered about bringing an extra bit of thin rope for situations like this but that's probably overkill

[@TheFilip330]

Maybe it is a good idea to twist one of the loops (like in a sliding x) before you make the larks foot ? That could be a bit more difficult to change the direction of pull though.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Personally having looked at some testing, I don’t feel there’s a real need for that, but there’s not much downside to it.

[@CCCarl123]

Didn't HowNot2 also test that variation? If I remember correctly, didn't they find that there was more friction in the hitch when you put in thet sliding x type of twist, so it slipped less? Yes, drawback would be that it would then be slightly harder to adjust for direction of pull.

[@JBMountainSkills]

It does slip yes, but I guess the question is does that matter?

[@LouisSimon33]

@@JBMountainSkills You get the same advantage as the sliding X, if one of your 2 pieces breaks, then worst case scenario, the master point carabiner stays in the sling.

[@JBMountainSkills]

If one of the pieces breaks but the sling is intact, the master point clip won’t slide off the end any way. If the sling cuts and the girth hitch slips, a lot, then yeah it’s coming out. Is this a realistic problem? I mention this in the video. Do slings regularly get cut? No. Has it happened though? Yes. As with all setups there’s some decisions and judgements to be made 👌

[@javierruggiero3311]

Super cool and informative man, thanks for posting this! I can think of another potential disadvantage though, and its the fact that it's not self equalized, so if you and/or your partner move at the master point, 1 of the 2 points can easily be overloaded. Not that relevant for bolted, but super important when the anchor relies on trad gear, just to take into consideration!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah true, it isn't self equalising.

[@rhodriwilliams2891]

What’s the trick to avoiding shelf release?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Film yourself trying to make it fail, then it deffo won’t fail 😂 It’s to do with which two strands you clip, best to have a play 😊

[@fredm8621]

I find sling knots super hard to untie so this is extremely useful.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Especially with cold fingers, which I have about 75% of the year 😂

[@peterbutcher4848]

Confuscious and Churchill quotes in the first 5 mins 🤙

[@JBMountainSkills]

Was having an intellectual day 😂

[@mastheadmike]

I really appreciate your focus on the fact the carabiner becomes the master point. I find that little aspect is glossed over and in real world observation I find people new to the GHMP often not treating it as such and just opening the gate and tying in.

[@moabvvabkv9577]

This is what I'd be worried about if I used this anchor with friends that were unfamiliar with it...can see them just opening the biner on the 3rd pitch for e.g just out of habit

[@Sam-gl4fi]

If the anchor was unweighted, would it be possible for the girth hitch to loosen up on it's own and slip right off the master point carabiner? Given that someone is always tethered to the masterpoint i suppose this would never happen, but perhaps one more reason not to use the shelf!

[@JBMountainSkills]

I suppose "possible", but I can't really see a realistic way it could happen. Always good to think of the "what ifs" though!

[@Sam-gl4fi]

​@@JBMountainSkills agree. I saw the nifty way you created the girth hitch and thought hmm... That could be reversed

[@Type2Suffering]

I suppose if it was supposed loose and unweighted, it probably wouldn't matter if it came undone because you weren't using it

[@angrybirder9983]

I don't think that can happen if anything is clipped into it. If you're clipped into it, the sling/cord doesn't just have to wrap around the carabiner to undo the hitch, but also around everything that's attached to it.

[@alevans1168]

Could you add an overhand to each strand? Creating a higher shelf (aware would maybe lose the benefit of quick adjustment). Great video btw 👍

[@JBMountainSkills]

You could but I'm not sure I'd ever bother.

[@andystairmand9023]

Great vid, to close yourself to reflection and change is a trap even the wisest fall into. Can I ask you have your carabiner going straight into your anchor points ie nuts, is this something you would do on a crag?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yes I’d always connect nuts to a sling via a carabiner.

[@mountainmystic1]

Excellent video and explanation.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Very kind :)

[@mountainmystic1]

Thoughts on this system? Offers the same solution of easily undone under load. kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z4bceqF5ZbiefdEsi=lg8pkszM4jtJQi80

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@mountainmystic1 it's another good option. Personally I'm fine with the girth hitch and it's a tiny (tiny) bit quicker.

[@boblebricoleur1836]

Good summary ! There is just one thing : you said that slow pull force is not equivalent to real life dynamic falls. I remember that in one video, Hownot2 said it's a message they receive a lot. But they tried multiple dynamic fall tests (with a tree where they drop a weight at the top) and they said in a video that each time they tested slow pull vs dynamic falls, they've gotten the same peak force !! Greetings from France !

[@JBMountainSkills]

Good point. I get the same peak force result, it’s just that peak force is only for a moment, so similar figures, but slightly different outcome potentially 😊

[@jameskesler1930]

What happens if one of the pieces comes out under load? Won't the girth hitch and every thing attached to it now slide downward pulling the belayer down and dropping the climber....

[@riancorcoran7885]

Great video. Super helpful.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you liked it :)

[@YiZongOng]

Great video as always, Jez. Will just say that removing the masterpoint is a real hypothetical. that would be like saying "let's see what happens if we untie the anchor with the belay device clipped in the shelf". it's called the masterpoint for a reason. You could also use an ab ring for a higher masterpoint. Then it would not have any issues with directional loading on the mp carabiner. it has a higher strength rating than a biner. plus it makes for a more flexible anchor set up. As always, there are cases when you wouldnt use a girthhitch mp anchor: top of a crag where the anchor is low for one.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Thanks 👊 I do disagree though with it being a hypothetical. I think it’s a real possibility with beginners confusing systems. I’ve instructed climbing for 26 years now and seen a lot of things in that time, I’ve even seen an instructor on assessment untie entirely on a multi pitch belay, well v nearly before they got shouted at! If something can happen, at some point it will.

[@ciaphas2037]

There's definitely something to be said for being suspicious of new belay/anchor techniques. If you've got safe methods that you're comfortable with, waiting a year or two to see if there are many major incidents attributed to the new fad is wise in its own way. Nothing to stop you picking it up in earnest once the crash test dummies have put some (hundreds of) hours of human testing into it.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Agreed!

[@svenmccalljr.4268]

Nice - I love hearing all the opinions about this. I think it has its place - especially if you are low on material in your cordelette for a three piece anchor and doing an overhand would unload a piece or something. One thing to note is that the AMGA talked about this recently and noted that adding a twist on a strand (magic X) is quite impactful to improve the friction lock so that it crosses itself. This apparently makes the system much less likely to slip when a strand is cut. A straight girth hitch on a smooth surface would start to slip between 1-2Kn whereas with cross (magic X), it took more like 20Kn. Not perfect science but adding a magic X if you are doing this seems to add so much more safety for pretty much zero effort. Check it out here --> kzbin.info/www/bejne/mpirnXSiqsiFrMU

[@JBMountainSkills]

Interesting re. the AMGA. I've looked at a fair bit of testing and my interpretation is that it doesn't really matter, but I'll check out that link :)

[@tommy-xavierrobillard3844]

@@JBMountainSkills It's also what is recommended in the 2024 version of Climbing Anchors by John Long

[@JBMountainSkills]

If you’ve not seen the how not to high line tests it’s worth checking. They’re one of the tests that convinced me the extra twist isn’t necessary. Saying that, no downside to it I guess!

[@Govanification]

@@JBMountainSkills Huh, I recall having the opposite takeaway from hownot2 and other videos (bliss climbing) looking at the girth-x, in that it's a free way to get several more kN slip resistance if a strand is cut.

[@NPC-fl3gq]

I think it helped dyneema slings substantially, but nylon was super good enough either way (from memory anyway)

[@CDLynas]

I love the speed to undo the girth hitch, however, I the risk of incorrectly clipping into the shelf is enough to take this option off my list. I would probably stick with an overhand for safety.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Nothing wrong with the classic overhand master point, it's probs still my go to!

[@ten10outdoor39]

Great video Jez ... "the illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn" Alvin Toffler :)

[@JBMountainSkills]

That is a good one!

[@paulmorrey4298]

Thanks

[@JBMountainSkills]

You're welcome :)

[@gregorymcnally9257]

Where's the dog?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Don't worry, behind the camera snoozing.

[@martycomiskey6168]

It’s better to be right than consistent

[@JBMountainSkills]

Like it!

[@mattdryden]

To me the question of redundancy is a simple exercise with just a little critical thinking . 99% of the time, it's redundant enough. If you are concerned about rockfall or icefall cutting a leg of the sling, you probably want to reconsider where your belay is set up and move to somewhere safer. If you absolutely must set up a belay in an area exposed to rockfall or icefall, prioritize redundancy and consider a different anchor. Given that, I agree that it's not ideal for teaching to beginners.

[@JamesMacdonald-b9h]

i agree with everything you've said / you're right. I also feel though that anyone enough of a plonker to take out the masterpoint-krab shouldn't be multipitch climbing! however i agree with this not being good for people's first anchor or used as default, and I think lots of beginners use youtube videos to get going

[@anthonycorcoran4055]

A Zen master walks up to a hot dog stand the Zen master gets his hot dog, one with everything. Pays the hot dog vendor with a 20$ bill. The vendor takes the money, and then nothing. The zen master is confused for a moment until the vendor replies. Change must come from within.

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@anthonycorcoran4055 😂

[@brightmatter7]

Question: why do you have to use an extra biner for the masterpoint? Why not set up master point, clove directly in, add ATC in guide mode right next to it, and bring second up? They go on shelf, reset rope and belay off their harness for next pitch, take your ATC, dump the clove but leave the masterpoint biner in place, and off you go for next pitch?

[@mikaelwerner1]

Ace, Jez!

[@JBMountainSkills]

Cheers :)

[@dark-o]

I have know this as the South Tyrolean belay/anchor.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Interesting, I know that as being something very similar, but slightly different. Hard to explain but girth hitch anchor 1, thread the sling through anchor 2, bring it down together to a girth hitch master point.

[@ingridk2469]

I came here to say the same thing! At least in the German speaking world, this is the Südtirol anchor. The biggest benefit is if you are building a trad anchor with 3+ pieces at weird angles, and maybe you need a very long sling to connect them all, this makes it super easy to equalize

[@JBMountainSkills]

Nice one, thanks for sharing!

[@beardymike77]

Jez, this is how I know it too. Met the chap (guide and engineer, Chis Semmel) who did alot of testing on this set up. I guess the yanks have appropriated it and changed it for there purposes, I.e. 2 bolt belays and renamed it as ive seen this in Europe for around 8 years now. Really like adding a sliding X into the mix to add leg slip redundancy and you can still do that with three legs and a dreaded guide sling or cordlette. Only issue is that it makes it harder to slacken off and readjust.

[@JBMountainSkills]

In normal circumstances I’m not fussed about the x. Not saying I never would be, but not in normal circumstances.

[@MattyDredge]

You sold your soul to the algorithm with that click bait 😆

[@JBMountainSkills]

Hate the game not the player 😂

[@MattyDredge]

@JBMountainSkills 😆 well, I don't have any good quotes for you about change but I can give you a Socrates quote. "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events and great minds talk about ideas". Well you're talking about I.D.E.A.S so you must be doing something right 😁

[@JBMountainSkills]

😂

[@Srealdan]

DONT DO JUST A GIRTH HITCH YOU HAVE TO ADD A MAGIC OR SLIDING X THIS LOCKS THE GIRTH HITCH SO IT CANT SLIP IF ONE END IS CUT GIRTH HITCH WITHOUT SLIDING X SLIPS AT ABOUT 1KN

[@JBMountainSkills]

NOT ACTUALLY ACCURATE.

[@accessmountain2019]

It's not new old chap it's been around for decades, but was formerly referred to as the South Tyrol Method.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Well yes, but I'm sure you'd agree it's super spreading nature has been a more recent social media phenomenon and it wasn't remotely common place, whereas it very much is now :)

[@Particularpete]

I gotta say I hate what Confucius has done to Korean culture and it permeates even to rock walls

[@pauliob73]

Thanks

[@JBMountainSkills]

Thanks so much 💪💪