I write worship songs for a large church -- and I'm an atheist

[@thekendredspirit5771]

The concept of eternal torture in hell for finite sins and disbelief is the most brutal, barbaric, heinous, psychotic, nefarious, insane, evil, wicked, cruel, and unusual ideology I've ever heard in my life and this is not hyperbole.

[@grimlund]

Yeah. The hell doctrine can be the most evil thing ever invented in the human history. I say "invented" because I think that it was made up by the church to scare people. Lets say that there is a God. Why the heck would he want to torture 90% of the people he created in eternity. The problem with christians is that they dont dare to think for themself.

[@Melody.Joy.23]

This might be a video I can show my husband. He plays guitar for the church we have been going to for a few years (but I haven’t been in some time) and he is a full time musician as well

[@tommihail6564]

Your guest Tim is not alone, there are pastors here in my city who no longer believe in what they once taught, It's just a JOB to them!! I find a contradiction when christians say ''You're born a sinner' yet another verse states ''we are fearfully and wonderfully made''??? 😂 The charasmatic church is purely experience based in weird manifestations that's created in people's minds...love the honesty from your guest..Regards from Australia.😊

[@mouthpiece200]

Once you get some practice, finding contradictions is like finding birds on telephone wires.

[@lloydtucker5647]

_"Salvation is a free gift but one has to count the cost..."_ Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. However, the vast majority of people are still going to hell because _"narrow is the way that leads to eternal life and few there be that find it..."_

[@ksteed1167]

@@lloydtucker5647 So what is our responsibility then? To count the (unknowable) cost first before accepting salvation...or to find this narrow road? Serious question, please help me understand.

[@lloydtucker5647]

@@ksteed1167 _"So what is our responsibility then?"_ I believe our responsibility is to use critical thought and analytical thinking. Though I do respect what others believe, it's still not right to force, or trick people into following a belief system. I was agreeing with the original post pointing out contradicting ideas in Christianity. The Bible says we are dirty, rotten sinners and yet we are fearfully and wonderfully made in the image of a perfect God. Those are contradicting ideas. Romans chapter 5 (and other places) says salvation is a free gift. However, Christianity teaches how "discipleship" comes at a cost. If something is free, it shouldn't cost you anything. The writer of Hebrews says Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil, yet Jesus himself says only a few people are going to be saved (Matthew 7). The devil's works are supposed to be destroyed, yet he is still able to drag most of humanity to hell with him? I *used to be* a devout fundamentalist. I stopped going to church in 2015 and deconverted from Christianity early this year (2021). Now I believe the Jesus Christ described in the Bible is a myth. I don't believe the resurrection ever happened nor do I believe there is an invisible, undetectable being walking around like a roaring lion seeking to devour me. I don't believe there is a kingdom of God nor a lake of fire.

[@ksteed1167]

@@lloydtucker5647 Well said. Totally agree...the contradictions are staggering.

[@DaveMullinsPlaysBass]

What’s interesting to me is that he seems very open with everyone he works with and the church doesn’t have a problem with it but he still hides his identity.

[@Sometimeslifeiscrazy]

He said the church staff know but not the members. Imagine the old ladies in the choir if they found out their choir director was an atheist!

[@totonow6955]

​@@Sometimeslifeiscrazy😂 very true but at the same time we have to imagine those same old women believing in damning others to hell.

[@henrim9348]

Great interview, amazing guest. I grew up around church/gospel music. It sucks you in, regardless if you believe or not.

[@Stephanie-ni6zc]

This interview really resonated with me. A huge benefit of church for me was all the creative and musical opportunities and growth I had there. I really miss it and I’m sad my kids won’t have it.

[@paulschlachter4313]

I hear you. I pretty much learned guitar playing there which I still do most days. The flipside of course is that music is intentionally used by churches as a means to 'fish' people.

[@ceb591]

@@paulschlachter4313 I had great mentorship with music at church. I directed a primary children's choir and sang in a very hip youth choir (1978 ish). Our church often had a organ student from the university to play Sunday nights. Pipe organ music gave me the god goosebumps.

[@paulschlachter4313]

@@ceb591 Some music is made to make your goosebumps themselves have goosebumps. Jesus is best at this. Proof: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZ27eJeDh6ppjLc

[@ceb591]

@@paulschlachter4313 i experience the same goosebumps without God as i did when i thought he existed.

[@ceb591]

@@christianthinker2536 I appreciate your concern for the youth. I was converted this way. I deconverted after 30 years a born again believer and have been working to undo the effects of non- critical thinking. Keep your faith and let the rest us be.

[@Shawn-hs8qk]

Tim, I think you have a book in you. All those quotes from other writings. Would be great to open one book and see so many.

[@scofah]

This was great. Thank you for this interview. I could listen to you guys talk for another 2 hours. I laughed when he shared about people gossiping at work. And I thought I'd let people know how I deal with it. When I hear somebody gossiping, I say to them, "hey I want to let you know that you'll always know how I feel about you, because you'll only hear it from me. If I ever have a problem with you, you'll know because I'll tell you. No one else will hear about it unless we can't come to a resolution together. And we agree to get some help to resolve it." Usually they understand, and stop talking about whoever they're gossiping about. 😊

[@mattiaswennerhult9451]

I don't know. I remember the vicious circle of sinning and then go to worship to start a new beginning only to get dismayed by sinning again. All that anxiety of trying to find out God's plan for your life, which you never do. Christians need to be set free. But that's only my two cents.

[@presentfuture7563]

Now there's something I can give an AMEN! lol.

[@Richard-hv5hh]

Well Verdi wrote one of the greatest Christian Requiems and he was a known atheist. Not a big deal. I am a militant atheist and love Church music.

[@Jemawin]

Same here. Verdi’s “Dies irae” is by far the most dramatic musical rendering of the last Judgment ever written. It took an opera composer, not a believer.

[@mmgibson1]

I found this perspective by an athiest worship song writer to be utterly fascinating - as a former member of the choir in my little New England church, I am not unfamiliar with the power of lyrics and music to uplift the hearts of the congregation. I did get to the point though where I kept thinking privately that many of them ought to go to an art museum and study a painting, or stare at a tropical fish tank - just please don't keep sucking the spirit out of me, there are plenty of ways to get it if you try.

[@enaroos4608]

This is one of more fascinating talks I've watched. I learn more and more with each video.

[@simonthompson2764]

Love this guy. Physically in but mentally out. Able to bring the outsider view, to a limit anyway. But this is a very accommodating church.

[@shriggs55]

Tim.since you have been an atheist for a couple of years,where did you acquire all this knowledge? It's quite impressive.

[@ksteed1167]

i agree! Seems he wanted to be the best/knowledgeable preacher he could be, so studied Christianity thoroughly.

[@slartibartfast1268]

Very interesting perspective. Being a musician and having been a church goer in the past I could have easily gone the same musical route as this guy and would probably even enjoy it now, even though I believe that the spirit people are feeling is just a universal human spiriit and/or body chemistry. And he's exactly right. Religious leaders are masters at manipulating the dopamine levels of their subjects. It feels real because it is real. They are just mistaking what the cause is, although I believe there *is* also a spiritual side to the world beyond what we currently know as physics. (Physics may someday come to incorporate it). That doesn't mean there has to be a god to go along with it. And like this guy, I would never disparage someone because of their faith - that's not my call and none of my business, and faith can be very helpful to many people. But when it causes harm or is disingenuous, that's when I have a problem with it.

[@kendalbrenneman]

I'm just wondering where one draws the line, as to when it does damage... I slowly realized the damage it did to me, and my dad won't hear it at all. He stopped talking to me as soon as I told him I didn't support the church anymore, and wants to "put it behind us" if I apologize to HIM. I think it's usually damaging...

[@DoorknobHead]

Good name for the Guest: "8-bit Atheist"

[@skydaddyissues3884]

Saw this title and I’ve Never clicked faster

[@simonthompson2764]

Let's be real here. Anyone who says your going to be tortured in hell for not believing what I believe is making a verbal threat as bad as I'm going to get my boss to come and bash you up and torture you because you did not agree with me. You should counter this threat with the strongest language possible.

[@eensio]

I have written religious music and it has been presented many years ago. I have been secretly atheist, but after the Putins war against satanic west, I have revealed more my unbelief. Thank you for this channel to share feelings about the submissive religion.

[@rainbowkrampus]

I'm actually in a somewhat similar position. Though I started playing at a church long after I'd realized there was no good reason to believe anything religions have to say. I've had my qualms about it, but ultimately, it's money and we live in a hyper capitalist society that prefers people to die than get healthcare and which treats the arts as frivolous and artists as expendable. Morality means fuck all when you can't eat. So, do what you gotta do.

[@the_tax_consultant]

Love your content!

[@thescenicnaturalworldrelax9823]

💕 that is very glorious movie, friend.

[@a.b.2405]

Around 37:00 that’s how I’m currently feeling even though I’m still “in” the religion. I don’t want to let it go, but my mental health needs to come first. It’s like I’m ending a long term friendship because this being clearly never cared about me. I guess I’m in denial.

[@mouthpiece200]

My old pastor (from years ago) was accused of being touchy feely with a young girl. I dunno if he just left the faith, or just couldn't resist his urges, or possibly it was a false accusation or what... He was fire and brimstone, always used to warn us of the fire of hell...

[@Squish2024]

Can you point me to where the bible says that you are like the angels in heaven worshiping god when you die? Thanks, love your videos!

[@DRayL_]

Yup. There is a definite "recipe" in making christian worship music. I'm sure I could do it as well. I spent years as a member of the worship team at a couple of large churches [one being a mega church]. It's just the way to get gullible people more convicted and convinced the stories are real....because music is a basis for rousing emotions in people...who misconstrue them as "a god filling them".

[@montagdp]

I was the music ministry leader at my small church until recently. I hardly ever outwardly show emotion, even if I'm feeling it on the inside, but one guy on the team lives for that emotional rush. He expressed dismay more than once about how so many people in church aren't responding in an outward show of emotion, and that there must be something wrong with their faith because they aren't being "filled with the Spirit." For some reason he could see that I didn't respond that way despite being committed Christian, but he still thought there was something wrong with the others. (That said, he'd probably change his opinion of me if he knew I've deconverted.) He's also deep into end times stuff as well as all the conspiracy theories. It's discouraging that people allow emotions to rule their worldview.

[@DRayL_]

@@montagdp It truly is discouraging. Because emotion can lead people down the wrong path. It can be the right path, as well, but just saying 'emotions' are not a legitimate way to discover fact. I get why the use of music is so powerful. I've been to churches with large pipe organs...and when they hit those low stops, and your insides rumble,...that can cause an emotional response for sure! Thanks for the reply.

[@jamesmccluskey391]

No one here will go to hell after death, because there's no hell to go to; Hell: No such word was in their vocabulary, and they knew of no such place. No word with the meaning that the English word Hell has now was used or known about unto long after the Bible. It is not in Greek literature in New Testament times or before, first-century writers did not use it, Josephus or any other historian of that time did not use it, it is not in the Septuagint. A place where God will torment the lost forever after the Judgment Day was not known about. the concept of the place called hell, or the name hell is not in the bible, and does not occur in any writing of either the Hebrews or the Greeks until long after the Bible. The Old Testament Hebrew, or the New Testament Greek, has no word that is even close to today’s English word “hell.” How do we know about this place called hell? Where did hell come from? It is not in the Bible. Neither is the name “hell” in the Bible. Where did it come from? Not by faith that comes by hearing God’s word. It is from the doctrines and precepts of men [Matthew 15:9]. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. It was not used in the first century because it was a word that was not in their vocabulary, and a place they know nothing about. (William Robert West, If the Soul or Spirit Is Immortal, There Can Be No Resurrection from the Dead, Third Edition, originally published as The Resurrection and Immortality [Bloomington, IN: Author House, September 2006] p. 138.) If hell is as painful as Christians believe it to be, then the time will certainly come when the souls there will think they have had enough and repent and go back to God.” Ecclesiastes 12:7 Wasn't it always about death, since the original sin? "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." Satan, "Eat it, Eve, YOU SHALL NOT SURELY DIE." [you will live in hell forever] traditional hell = believing the first lie of Satan himself, plainly shown in the word of God, from the very start. If you look for "hell" in the Bible, you're in for a long, fruitless search for facts, definitions, and explanations. Why? Because the Hebrew prophets never mentioned a place where human beings would wither in eternal torment, gnashing their teeth forever. Nor did the Hebrew prophets ever mention even the possibility of suffering after death. "hell" is used by charlatans to fleece the gullible. The Greek philosopher Celsus pointed out to Origen and other early Christians that the Greeks had invented "hell" to control the masses. Celsus also pointed out that no wise man believed in "hell." Should Christians be as gullible and undiscerning as the dupes of Celsus's day?

[@curbroadshow]

Religion convinces them that they need saving, and only their religion can save them. Sad, very sad.

[@totonow6955]

Thank you James. Very helpful.

[@mouthpiece200]

Dude, would you like some help writing that music? Composition background here, I'll have your peeps getting shivers down there spine with my chords and harmonies. :D

[@jessicarose2264]

GOOD ONE!

[@omnipenguinify]

Perhaps in the evangelical community, unbeliever musicians seem strange. But in the mainline denominations, it is pretty usual for the music directors to be unbelievers. Speaking from experience in the Episcopalian community, the more serious the music is, the more you could be sure that music director was not believing. The church is one of the last main employers of classically trained choristers and organists. The churches I went to, they performed obscure composers, motets, chants and the like. The music was very sophisticated. At this level, the director would need masters or Phd level of education, asking them to be serious christians would lead to slim pickings. Then again, Episcopalians are like the "I believe in God, I guess..." branch of christians, lol. As an aside, I do miss the music. I still go to church from time to time, just for the music.

[@Jemawin]

Very senior lady here (82) who was trained as a Roman Catholic organist at age 15 when we still had a Latin Mass. I sang and played the Latin chant Mass daily. I also have sung in a number of choral groups in concert performances of liturgical music over the years. My loss of faith occurred at age 22 when an over-the-top hell-fire and brimstone sermon struck me as so nonsensical and contradictory that I was compelled to reexamine my beliefs. At that particular time (post Vatican II and the approval of Mass in the vernacular) I was in a choir at Stanford’s Catholic chapel where we retained a Latin Mass and we also did a lot of Medieval and Renaissance polyphony. (The hell fire sermon was NOT at the Stanford chapel, by the way.) I absolutely loved the music. Within the last dozen years I had a job as music director and pianist at a Protestant church which emphasizes the divinity of Christ and the power of prayer but is otherwise non-doctrinal and very positive minded. I loved the minister and the people and enjoyed my stint there.

[@davedavenport8673]

I understand he has been straight forward and honest with the church, but I couldn't sleep at night knowing I am involved in emotional manipulation disguised as spirit or power of God? I think contemporary worship is almost pure emotional manipulation. I get it, Covid caused problems for musicians, which sucks, but it seems morally questionable to contribute, develop, and hone the skills of indoctrinators. I worry not only about the children, but also those who are hurting and needy. They need actual psychological help, but they come for their weekly sky daddy bump. Maybe if he wasn't there, the service would have less "spirit," and the church might die out. Maybe they just hire someone else, so he thinks, why not him instead, since he does have some influence on a few people. It's not the few I am concerned about, it's the masses of blind sheep. Tough spot for sure. I wrote a couple worship songs and led worship multiple times and regret it to this day. The manipulation is real, even if I perceived it as God moving or magnifying the worship of him. Modern churches would not exist without the worship concert and it is sad that even theology and the word takes a back seat to the show. Maybe modern church is just like-minded social engagement and group therapy, but I agree with Tim that there are people being hurt along the way and will have work to do and scars to heal in the future as a result.

[@mattng4707]

I relate to this a lot, I used to be on Worship team too, it's complicated and I understand why people go and believe, but now as a grown and older man with kids, I don't need a God and a flipin imaginary Sataclause to tell me I love my kids, I don't need a God to tell me to have empathy and be kind to people, we're human we all shit, piss, bleed, eat, make mistakes but ultimately want a connection with others and express ourselves fully. It's bonkers that people need something like a God to literally tell them to love someone like their own child ( I haven't even started on Child emotional neglect that comes from being raised from christianity and other belief systems ) spouse, WTF come on it's 2021 just show how emotionally undeveloped, this type of belief system makes of their believers. Sorry rant over. hahaha Flipin Great Show TIM - keep going

[@ndeepowder]

And stuff like that, blah blah blah blah blah blah, this was like totally like really like awesome

[@puco66]

I, like, noticed that as well. He like really needs to break like that habit.

[@teresasprowl]

KZbin suggested this video for me so I checked it out. I would like to say that I see this is an atheist channel but I am a believer. I am a believer because my walk with God began when His love drew me to Him - a love I had never known before. This love showed me how my sin was destroying me. My soul was heavy and very burdened. He wanted to take all that away so I could have life. He wanted me to trade death for life so His love drew me to turn away from my life of destruction and I was baptized in water in the beautiful name of Jesus Christ and He washed me clean inside and took all my sins, burdens and fears completely off my soul. I know without a doubt that He is real because when I came up out of the water I knew that I was brand new. I know He is alive and true without a doubt because there is nothing else on this earth that can do that. Then a river of spiritual living water began flowing into my soul and it filled me up so much that it flowed out of my mouth and a beautiful language rolled off my tongue that I had never learned and I knew that it was His Spirit that was filling me up. I was in the most glorious place where my heart didn't want to leave. It gave me such joy and peace deep down inside that I can't even find words to describe it. Jesus has been my counselor, my comforter, my guide, my teacher, my peace, my joy, my everything. He has never failed me and His witness inside me is the greatest gift I have ever known. I would like to say that I can enjoy all this joy and peace without music - He alone is enough. I'm filled with such joy and peace from Jesus that I cannot deny or doubt Him. If you want to meet Him, seek Him in truth and He will meet you wherever you are and no matter who you are and no matter what you have done - and then you will not deny Him and you most definitely will believe. The key is a humble heart that is thirsty for life ❤

[@stefanheinzmann7319]

You're wasting your time. On this channel, nobody will buy this Jesus fanboy stuff. They have heard what you wrote for most of their life, so reading it once more will only bore them.

[@timetoreason181]

This is not only an atheist channel but also a channel that debunks the Cult of Jesus aka Christianity. Almost all guests here are ones members of the Cult of Jesus now left for good to be better people to live without delusions. Once upon a time they too uttered the words what you have written here. Your words does not prove a god exist, but psychological fantasy to fill your own desires in desperation. We are not desperate of a deity to lead our lives but we do good, love unconditionally, show kindness, compassion and mercy; we just do it as we can do it

[@presentfuture7563]

@@stefanheinzmann7319 "Victorious Christians" like this actually bug the living sh*t out of me because my feelings of betrayal still run so deep. What they conveniently ignore and bulldoze over with their orgasmic gush of purported holy bliss is the inconvenient fact that many of us already spent years of our lives trying to have a "relationship" with their ostensible wonderful Lord and Savior, and feeling like there was something deeply and fatally wrong with us because all the worship and praying and Bible reading and begging and yearning to reach some purported state of grace and bliss and union ended up a gigantic BUST. Like people who buy a "miracle" product touted to be the magic cure for all your earthly ills. I swear to God, no pun intended, I have never seen anyone pain-point market better than Evangelical Christians do. Billy Graham was a freaking GENIUS at it. You may even sway to the rally music and feel connected to a bunch of strangers for an hour or two, like at a jam band concert, and get at least momentarily emotionally triggered by some highly charged words (most of which Teresa used liberally, much like my late mother did), but then you get your product home and it's just an utterly worthless sugar pill. And the longer you try to make it work "with a humble thirsty heart," the more profoundly betrayed you feel in the end when it doesn't. I mean, even if you allowed for the sake of argument that their whole insane bloodthirsty theology was the gospel truth, pun intended, more Bible verses than not support that some of us are just gonna be "vessels of wrath." So yay, thanks for underscoring for me that I'm not one of the elect, lady. Have a nice freaking day.

[@randyregis4209]

You need a mans love

[@stefanheinzmann7319]

@@presentfuture7563 I can relate to that, but I can stay cool because I don't share this sense of betrayal anymore, having been an atheist for some 40 years now. What still annoys me, however, is when people like Theresa come here, pretend to have "checked out" the video, only to then prove that they haven't a clue what it was about, and just use it as an opportunity to spout the very same nonsense that was the topic of the video in the first place. I'm sure the lady hasn't bothered to watch more than ten minutes of the video before hitting the keyboard. There's absolutely no will to understand what Tim and his guest were trying to get across, and no curiosity to find out about their outlook. The video only served to push the button on a record player that plays the same broken and creaky record over and over again. That's what religious brainwashing does to you: It converts you into a record player on autorepeat, with no way to pause for reflection. This isn't a "humble heart", it is a jammed mind unable to recognize the embarrassment it is.

[@srich7503]

At min 12:00 seems to be the turning point in the guest life where he didnt KNOW or DOUBT his sins were forgiven. 🥲 thats a-shame! This is one purpose of the priesthood, the scapegoat. Peace!!!