Identifying Consecutive Fifths and Octaves - Music Composition

[@MusicMattersGB]

Learn Music Online - Check out our courses here! www.mmcourses.co.uk/courses

[@chrismaghintay]

I'm coming to your channel primarily as a rock guitarist and I'm learning so much. Thank you! This lesson particularly is highlighting why I've heard that power chords make for the most basic kind of music. It's literally all consecutive fifths!

[@MusicMattersGB]

Absolutely. Glad to have you with us.

[@egilsandnes9637]

I'm so glad you pointed out that this is particulary important in music like trditional four part harmony. Even the grand masters occationally had a paralell fifth. Making music with many parts are like puzzles and you have to make compromises. Maybe all parts follow a very nice logic and makes amazing runs. You might then allow a well hidden paralell fifth, or something else might "have to give". Also paralell fifths can make a very nice effect when used with intent. Most of rock music is actually completely dependent on paralell fifths, since power cords are paralell fifths "by nature", and they work really well! It might also be good to know _why_ they sound "bad" in many cases. The fifth is a very "basic" relationship, and the most harmonic interval (after the octave). It's the first overtone interval and it's very, very resonant. Most instruments will have a lot of paralell fifths built into each simple sound. In a paralell fifth the fundamental kind of "drowns" the fifth. In a four part harmony piece it will almost feel like you loose a part, as it "drowns". Also it will sound a bit weird, like it's a different instrument. (If you go into the maths/physics of sound, you will see that an important reason instruments sound different, is that the loudness of each overtone is different from instrument to instrument. Parallell fifths sounds a bit like an instrument with stronger fifths)

[@MusicMattersGB]

All good points

[@lizziesmusicmaking]

I play lever harp, and so a lot of celtic music... which uses a lot of open chords (aka power chords). So consective 5ths are very common in the left hand when playing celtic harp music.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Absolutely. There are a number of styles that feature 5ths. Of course once 5ths or 8ves become a feature of texture they’re not regarded as consecutive in the way that occasional presentations are.

[@ruthwilkinson2076]

I found this very useful. I had just been trying to spot consecutive 5ths and octaves on a score, but using a systematic approach and sounding out pairs of parts on the keyboard makes it much easier to find problem areas. Thank you!

[@MusicMattersGB]

Glad it’s helpful.

[@kaiserchief9319]

Exactly exactly what I needed in a video title. I've just finished doing my homework and now I'm starting the dreadful task of having to go through it and ensure that there are no consecutive fifths or octaves or my prof will have my head -- again.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Great. Good luck!

[@jayducharme]

I wrote a choral piece several years ago that had a brief section in the tenor and bass that payed homage to Gregorian chants. After the performance, one of the tenors (a music teacher) approached me and wryly said, "I've never sung in consecutive fifths before." At the time, I didn't know what he was talking about. I thought, "Of course they're consecutive! That was the point!" 😁

[@MusicMattersGB]

Excellent

[@DylanJohnson-t1h]

This is great Gareth ! Thanks for posting this.

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@Bass60134Player]

Good explanation. My students always protest these rules. I try to explain it as a guide that forces creativity.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Good idea!

[@leotardbanshee]

Ahh yes creative ways to ruin my melody 😂

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@lawrencetaylor4101]

Another informative video, Gareth. Merci.

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@Raffael-Tausend]

Thanks! I really appreciate your videos!

[@MusicMattersGB]

A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk

[@minidrags2]

Thanks for another helpful video! I am interested in composing orchestral music (in the long run, after hopefully learning the basics first!) I have a few questions :D 1. Do the rules about consecutive fifths and octaves still apply when the harmony is a lot more complex like for an orchestra? 2. If so, how do you check for them in an orchestral score, this systematic part-by-part method would presumably become exponentially laborious? Sort of a separate question 3. Do you think learning 4-part harmony is an absolute must before working on other combinations of instruments? I'm happy to put the time in, but since I'm only really interested in orchestral harmony, is it the most efficient use of my time (I'm in a full time job :S) Thanks again.

[@MusicMattersGB]

I think study in harmony always pays off. As for consecutives in orchestral scores when you’re beyond four part textures the rules become much more relaxed eg octaves might be a feature of texture. Good harmonic progressions are still worth achieving.

[@landersiqueiros6538]

It's amazing how dissonant fifths can sound 😸

[@MusicMattersGB]

They can certainly stick out if the context is otherwise without consecutive 5ths

[@randolphmitchell6851]

Like the systematic approach! Would you advise correcting as one goes, or identifying all the problems and then correcting? Sometimes I find that correcting one interval ends up messing up another, so I get caught in a loop. Also, I wonder what you think about direct motion to fifths or octaves? My composition instructor always bring these to my attention, but often I can't hear any ill effect, and they are harder to identify.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Personally I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over the final point. Re consecutives I would sort them as you go. Admittedly sometimes one fix creates another problem but collective solutions are worth finding.

[@jackdeago3639]

Thank you so much. Video about how to write music in the contrasting styles/ period

[@MusicMattersGB]

We have some videos on this but we can make some more

[@jackdeago3639]

@@MusicMattersGB can you provide me with the links .

[@jackdeago3639]

@@MusicMattersGB it will be insanely awesome if you do

[@NomeDeArte]

When I identify one fifth or octive, is better fix it in the moment and re start to checking everything again? Or is better to mark it down and keep checking the whole piece, and then fix all together? Thank you for all the amazing work you all put on the channel!

[@kaiserchief9319]

I second this question.

[@MusicMattersGB]

If you spot one it’s usually best to fix it straight away otherwise one situation can impact on another. You’ll still need to check the whole piece at the end.

[@NomeDeArte]

@@MusicMattersGB Thank you for the answer!

[@MusicMattersGB]

A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk

[@randyholdampf8320]

So do 20 to 30 second pieces usually take 3 to 4 hours to correct? Lol this sounds like a nightmare.

[@athishayjain.m.k9257]

Hi sir I have a doubt while checking concecutive 5ths and octaves in harmonising should we consider the chord tones only or even the passing tones as well ..? Or both ? Plz help tq

[@MusicMattersGB]

Both

[@athishayjain.m.k9257]

tq sir while harmonizing if we come across any parallels can i break it by introducing a passin note in between the chord tones ? will it break the concecutives sir ? like -- If the chord tones are eight notes (quavers), ill make the passing tone an 16th note (semi quaver) - If the chord tones are quarter notes (crotchets), ill make the passing tone an eighth note (quaver) - If the chord tones are half notes (minims), ill make the passing tone a quarter note (crotchet) - If the chord tones are whole notes (semibreves), make the passing tone a half note (minim) will it be right sir to escape from paralle fifths and octaves...?

[@MusicMattersGB]

@athishayjain.m.k9257 Basically you need to avoid 5ths and octaves however they occur.

[@gabrielfigueiredo4372]

Great video! I was wondering if it's still considered parallel octaves when they occur between the fourth and the first beat of the next bar, especially if the rhythms are notably contrasting. For exemple, in a 4/4 setting, if there's a G on the bass (semibreve) and a Bb (dotted minim) on the soprano, and then two quavers going A to G on the fourth beat, so that the first beat of the next bar contains an A both on the bass and soprano, are there parallel octaves between the parts, even though it happened so quickly at an upbeat?

[@MusicMattersGB]

That’s still considered consecutives even though they are slightly concealed

[@faithrico3260]

Thank you so much❤

[@MusicMattersGB]

A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk

[@derkurator9940]

Great video. I have a question: what if I have a passing note between chords and the passing note is causing consecutive fifths with one of the other voices?

[@MusicMattersGB]

Then it’s best avoided

[@martinbennett2228]

Sometimes it is possible to find parallel fifths that are swapped between parts: a fifth or octave between bass and soprano parallel to a fifth or octave between tenor and soprano for example. Does this also count as a parallel, or do parallels only count if they are physically in the same parts? Without testing it in a choir, my feeling is that the music might sound rather bare in such cases, but I am not sure.

[@MusicMattersGB]

It’s a less serious violation but best avoided

[@martinbennett2228]

@@MusicMattersGB Thank you, for your reply. Are you considering a video on direct octaves and fifths? I think these may be harder to spot.

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@stormfist9927]

hi! i have a question regarding the consecutive octaves in the first two notes of the soprano-bass pair. would it still be considered consecutives if, for example, the soprano made a big leap to the E one octave higher instead?

[@MusicMattersGB]

Unfortunately that would still count as octaves plus it wouldn’t make for a very satisfactory soprano line.

[@stormfist9927]

@@MusicMattersGB thank you!

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@frankspears4597]

Really useful. Would be useful to see you handle writing in 5 parts where you have cello and double bass

[@MusicMattersGB]

See our recent video on writing in 5 parts

[@frankspears4597]

@@MusicMattersGB 👍

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@peforce]

Thank you for the lesson! I have a question: isn't the last beat of bar a direct octave between the soprano and the bass and should also be avoided? Or is it allowed because the bass is moving by step?

[@markchapman6800]

I think that that's regarded as slightly naughty, although the direct/exposed octave at the end is OK because the soprano is moving by step - the latter happens far too often in cadences to be forbidden.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Absolutely

[@peforce]

@@markchapman6800 Makes sense. Almost every cadence I write has a direct octave in it and I find it impossible to avoid.

[@solarion33]

very understandable ! not using first position chords (1-3-5) can really prevent a whole lot of consecutives ,at least fifths, octaves are still possible.. its interesting , does it mean that first position chords has something special about them ? are they stronger in some sense ?

[@MusicMattersGB]

Root position chords contain the 5th above the root so it’s much easier to end up with consecutives. The first and second inversion chords don’t contain 5ths above the root.

[@blackwhite1257]

At 14:15, what is a compound third!? I never heard of that. Curious. My interest is tweaked. Please answer. And what’s a perfect fifth, and what’s a perfect octave? Hmmm. So many things to think about. Plus, at 11:32, you said it was a perfect fifth, how is it a fifth? Woah. And at 12:54 you said they were all thirds, how are they thirds?!

[@MusicMattersGB]

Intervals are the distance between notes. C to D is a second, for example. C to E is a third. C to F is a fourth. If the upper note is in the major scale of the lower note it’s a perfect interval if it’s a 4th a 5th or an octave. Otherwise it’s a major interval. Augmented intervals are one semitone wider than major or perfect. One semitone smaller than major is minor. One semitone smaller than perfect or minor is diminished. Hope that helps.

[@blackwhite1257]

@@MusicMattersGB okay, I got cleared up.

[@BesseDenmark]

Personally I like and use consecutive fifths and octaves. They make music strong and clear.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Completely if it fits the style in which you’re writing.

[@solarion33]

nooo you mustn't !! just kidding , modern guitar music use tons of consecutive , metal music especiily relish on it with plenty of power chords .. but when a sound is drowned in distortion with lots of slides in between it softens the effect I think.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Absolutely

[@AdorationTV]

Thank you sir…this video definitely opened my understanding of the Fifths! 🎹🪗🎹

[@MusicMattersGB]

A pleasure. Much more at www.mmcourses.co.uk

[@solarion33]

there are some guidelines about how much notes in every voice can be apart from each other to still be considered in the same voice ..

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@AdorationTV]

Thanks!

[@MusicMattersGB]

A pleasure! Thank you very much for your generosity and support for the channel!

[@AdorationTV]

You are welcome sir! Just wanted to show my appreciation you are such a wonderful piano teacher! 🤓

[@MusicMattersGB]

You’re a gem

[@burkhardstackelberg1203]

The parallel fifths piece sounds clearly baroque but a bit off - a bit like a piece of the baroque amateur composer Bärbel Schneider...

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@lizziesmusicmaking]

The consecutive 5ths didn't sound bad to me. At worst, maybe a little boring. Why are they so bad that you are advised to root them out like poison? I don't get it at all.

[@MusicMattersGB]

It’s not being suggested that they are poison! When you’re writing traditional four part harmony the 5ths and octaves stick out and weaken harmonic progression but in other styles one might choose to feature them.

[@riverstun]

One of the arguments is that the two lines start to sound like one line because of the characteristics of fifths and octave. For example, if you play 2 lines all as parallel octaves, people tend to hear only one line of music. Because in a sense, it is. As soon as you break up the parallels, now you hear two voices. So a lot of it is about making the voices independent, and easier for the listener to pull apart. Hence the little boring becomes less boring because now there is more going on.

[@MusicMattersGB]

Excellent point

[@lizziesmusicmaking]

@@MusicMattersGB Okay, that makes more sense to me. After I wrote that, I started thinking about Gregorian chant and the beginnings of polyphony. There was a stage where they wrote two parts moving in octaves, and another where there was two parts moving in 5ths. It sounds somewhat odd to modern ears, but not bad. And they must get lots of consecutive 5th and octaves in those situations. The impression I got from your video is that consecutive 5ths and octaves were to be rooted out and destroyed wherever found. I get avoiding 2nds unless you really want that particular type of dissonance or it's caused by a brief passing tone, but the consecutive 5ths and octaves being a problem surprised me. Maybe if I just keep in mind that too many consecutive 5ths and octaves gets boring, that's good enough for now... I bet you could use the effect intentionally, though, if you wanted to lull the audience into a false sense of security before doing something startling. Thank you, and riverstun, for the expansion and clarification.

[@MusicMattersGB]

😀

[@patrickcunningham618]

🙂

[@MusicMattersGB]

Glad it’s helpful