Identifying Ludwig COB Supraphonic Snare Drums

[@andyweis5194]

Excellent video Rick. One more difference between the 2 shells is that (even though both can oxidize), the COB shell will not pit through the chrome whereas the aluminum shell can and will pit through the chrome. And as you know, those pits can never be removed.

[@Uzziel_lay_drums]

An observation, as owner of both drums , the COB lugs are different and heavier inside they're different too, also COB inside the shell you can see somes vertical lines, regular Supraphonic gets pitting COB are not, the COB depends year the earlier COB have small internal muffler knob mid 60's comes little bigger one, the Supraphonic mid- late 60 comes with round know too.

[@SalMichael]

This is great Rick. I have a super Ludwig 59 -61, it has the blue crossed sticks keystone . The snare bed is hand bent and thinner what an amazing piece.

[@27cancega]

I have a COB pre serial number keystone 14x6.5 brass hoop and it’s a real joy to hear and play.

[@billyrhythm]

An excellent video Rick. As a A long time Ludwig collector, I always tell people there is no single bullet way of identifying a chrome over brass model. Because Ludwig was in a transition phase when these models were produced, and because Ludwig was famous for using whatever was available at whatever time they were in, there are oddballs and crossovers that exist that SHOULDN’T exist. Instead, I take an assemblage of all the different clues that you offered: non-serial number badge (or a transition badge), a round muffler, crimped snare beds, visible seam, weight, and pit free chrome plating. None of these things on their own guarantee you a brass drum, But the more of them you have the more likely you are to have a brass drum. The white felt muffler that you show on your drum certainly puts it in that mid to late 60s timeframe. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a chrome over brass with a white felt muffler. I seem to recall some red felt ball bat muffling brass models are out there but the round knob is the more common.

[@rickdior]

Thanks for your help, Billy. The snare with the white muffler is not COB. It's definitely aluminum, but the other with the black round muffler on the right is COB. Everyone one of my 8 ludwig 400 style drums from this time period is different. It must have been lots of fun working in the quality control department back then!

[@alharper1610]

About the muffler. I don’t still have my COB from years ago, but I’m 100% positive it had a baseball bat muffler with red muffler. It was from around 60- 61 I’m pretty sure. It was with an early Hollywood set that had the early bass drum Tom mounts that were flat with a block of wood at the top of the post mount to support each of the Tom mount arms. I sold that set( regrets!) and years later got a late sixties Super Classic set with Supraphonic and noticed immediately the difference in weight from the COB I had many years prior. By the way I bought my early Hollywood kit used about mid to early’67.

[@jonathanmontagna]

How do you clean them? Do you use any special products? Thanks!

[@nealsausen4651]

Most of these Ludwig sup phonics had the dates stamped into the inside of the shell with a rubber stamp month date and year don’t yours have date stamped on the inside. I don’t mind it I bought my first Lugard super sensitive in 1965 and I had a date stamped in it.

[@drum_services]

Appreciate this video Rick. Very helpful!

[@JackNiles]

I believe the early COB were rolled and welded. So there should be a welded seam in the COB. But the Ludaloy is spun. The new COB are spun and have no welded seam. Is this information correct? Thanks

[@rickdior]

I don't know, but I'm sure someone here does. The very early COB shells as in 1920- 1940 were 2 piece shells. I have one on those, and you can see it and hear it in all of my NARD videos.

[@steverichdrummr]

Hi Jack. You just asked a contradicting question, I think you just misspoked a bit. The COB that Rick just demonstrated does have a welded seam, as I could see it in the video. The Supra, does not have the seam. So I think that's what you mean. I know that this vintage of COB Ludwigs were welded, but I have no knowledge about anything newer than these, so I can't help you there. However I do believe the drums you buy today are all spun brass. When they switched over is what I just don't know. I hope this helps.

[@peterpiece2102]

Yeah, it is true! The ludalloy is seamless shell , but the super Ludwig is not!

[@sarojaband4664]

What is the preferred musical application for each drum? Thank you and Happy New Year 2024🎉

[@rickdior]

Anything you can think of, but they are very popular Rock/Pop drums

[@crystallake6198]

I have a 61 chrome over brass with the original muffler. its the drum I learned on.

[@ChrisHaas1]

Thanks for the video! What do you use to clean these beauties?

[@andyweis5194]

I know it's apples and oranges but I also have an engraved (not super sensitive) Black Beauty from the 70's. It's also COB.

[@crichardson536]

Great info here on your channel Rick. In your opinion, what would be a fair price to acquire one of the early 60's cob drums currently. I'm definitely into the old school vintage collecting. Thanks

[@rickdior]

It depends on the condition, and you would have to be sure its COB. I once purchased a drum before I knew better, and it was falsely advertised as COB when it was aluminum. If the drum checks all of the boxes from my video it is most likely a COB and they are going for around $1000 in very good condition. A mint one will cost you much more.

[@mpr8570]

Thanks for the helpful video. I have two supraphonics - one without a serial number on the gold badge, the other with a serial number of 100385. The latter is definitely lighter as you mentioned, but in looking up the serial number, it doesn't seem to be listed in Ludwig's identifying chart. Does this number make any sense to you? It seems to be a legit drum otherwise.

[@delablobbo]

Hi Rick. You're a great source of drum wisdom. Best on the net. Anyway, did you ever see the 1959 video of Art Blakey and the messengers playing in Paris? Check out the snare Art's playing. I'm sure it's a Super Ludwig. Buddy had one, too, on Rich vs Roach . Do you think the COBs they now make are the equal of the Super Ludwig? And which of your 400s you best like the sound of?

[@rickdior]

I think the ones they make now a fine. I do not like the strainer they are using. They do sound different for whatever reason and they are a bit lighter in weight. The heads you have on there will make a huge difference so pay careful attention to that. Of all of my 400's I like the 60's COB drums the best but once again it's not that big of a difference.

[@kevinsimmons7630]

I am a sheet metal fabricator. Aluminum is the dirtiest metal to work with. The pre chromium cleaning process must have changed somewhere around 1970. In my humble opinion. I have a 67 Supra with no flaking issues.

[@rickdior]

Yes, I agree. My 70's 400's look like they have wasting disease and all of my 60's drums have hardly any pitting or shedding.

[@kevinsimmons7630]

@@rickdior Thank you for the lessons. Much appreciated.

[@stevewilcock4767]

The anti galvanic finish on Ludwig snare drums was introduced in the late 1970's.

[@bikemayer1]

I have a baseball bat muffler pre-serial drum.

[@nealsausen4651]

So do I very interesting it must’ve been during the transition. When they just started just started putting the baseball bat muffler in the drums, even though the numbers are not required yet.

[@robertdemaree2165]

I have a pre serial number supraphonic did they make ludalloy pre serial number drums?

[@rickdior]

I believe so but I am not positive. There are better experts than me out there so you might want to post a picture and details to a forum. If the weight of the drum is similar to my own which is 5.5 lbs without rims and heads and around 9 lbs with the rims and heads it is most likely COB. You can also sand a bit of the inside of the drum in an inconspicuous place and you will see the brass. That may affect its value though so I don't recommend it.

[@LemuelHayes]

There aren't many but they're out there

[@nealsausen4651]

Is there a date stamped in the side of the drum? anywhere?… my first Ludwig set they had dates stamped in each Drum the month of the day in the year the drum was assembled I guess or inspected. Do they have that on the super sensitives by the way, the mandate to put serial numbers on the DRUMS was sometime in 1963 in 1963 they were still turning out DRUMS without numbers but at some point during that year they started putting numbers on the Drum or DRUMS in 1963 at some point the chart I looked at for 1963 said no number and then a dash and then 7900 7900 DRUMS were made that had serial numbers on when in 1963 they started doing that. I don’t know early 63?mid 63? late 63…. ?!?! 1963 Is the key…. Pun intended!

[@nealsausen4651]

Another way you can tell if your snare drum is a brass shell or not your Ludwig LM 410 or LM 400 is to look at the inside of the shell does it have a reddish, goldish hue to it then it’s probably brass just look at the inside interior wall of the shell. I have one from the early early 60s that belonged to my Drum teacher that I just inherited it’s a “PRE SERIAL NUMBER” Keystone badge!… by the way that was a government mandate. The federal government required that all musical instrument manufacturers put a serial number. Somewhere on the instrument! This requirement was implemented around 1962 or 1963, so there is a very good chance if you’re badge does not have a number stamped in it it’s probably a pre-1963 vintage Ludwig ! Ludwig was to put it on the top of the Keystone badge between the two “drumsticks” now MY super sensitive has no serial number but. It has the “baseball bat” muffling system not the round knob muffling system interesting.