Idries Shah - the Latifas

[@MrDoremouse]

I was given a meditation to do on the qalb, and I don't do it every day, but when I DO to it it makes my conscience very sharp and I fell I have to get things right with my life. You can't harbour sins or bad intentions when you do it (or I can't).

[@369stellar]

Hello, I was able to blend my heart and my higher mind as one by just being in contemplation. Then, I was able to maintain the same state of mind and body in movement. Now I am able to flow in my on tempo ( heath breath inner peace) Color, I see colors as a comunication with the field)

[@QED_]

See overview of the idea of the Lataif here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lataif-e-sitta

[@ZeuzBluez]

yes they are not real organs but rather hypothetical workings models. this is why not all sufis agree on the locations and the corresponding colours. mr Shah was right to stress that the experiences that results from these meditation exercises do not reveal to us anything about the cosmos ..they are purely subjective experiences that give personal meaning to their subject.

[@justahumanbeing.709]

This is an excerpt from the talk 'An Advanced Psychology of the East' on you tube in two parts.

[@MrDoremouse]

Different sufi ordrs concentrate on different latifa. The Mujaddid-Naqshbadi start with the ''heart'' or qalb area.

[@johnstanton8499]

Very interesting Thanks

[@mohammedalla2649]

he has mixed up location of the latifas, all 5 are locate in the chest there 2 more in the head. mediation begins with the qalb and must be initiated by a guide "murshid e kamil" .

[@mohammedalla2649]

***** thank you for the clarification, what is the title of the book

[@marcosl7535]

+Mohammed ali he did not mix them up, different Tarikas, even different Murshids give different locations and manners of activation.

[@muhd7144]

@Mohammed alla Not important whether he has mixed up the location of the latifa or otherwise. Idries Shah (and he knew what he was doing) was attempting to put into words for the western intellectual ears a spiritual technology that should actually be experienced, under proper guidance, rather than be put into words. Anything that is narrated into words will differ according to the narrator.

[@hafizullahsufi]

There are actually several different systems of the Laṭā’if. Different Orders each have their method - there isn't a "more correct" version - and you do the one given by your teacher.

[@hafizullahsufi]

There are different systems of laṭā’if; they don't all have the same locations or colors. There isn't a "more correct" system; you use the one given by your shaikh.

[@luznur]

traducirlo al español por favor. muchas gracias

[@MrDoremouse]

1:37 The Mujaddidi- NaqshabandiSufi orders start not with the navel, but with the qalb or ''heart''.

[@hafizullahsufi]

There are actually several different systems of the Laṭā’if. Different Orders each have their method - there isn't a "more correct" version - and you do the one given by your teacher.

[@hafizullahsufi]

​@@QED_ Well, I have experience with only three maps of laṭā’if (Chishti, Naqshbandi, Qādiri), and to me, the issue is less whether one is more "correct" but "what does this one do?", especially in conjunction with the being of the teacher and the Lineage. The laṭā’if can't be "studied" when abstracted from their context of a relationship with a teaching shaikh, the Lineage, and how the Teaching acts upon the shaikh and the study circle. And I think it's important to not psychologize the laṭā’if too much. It's my direct experience that the Names are also ontological realities, self-subsisting outside time/space/form and which are truly known only by means of themselves, not their effects/ manifestations - or their counterfeits - in the human personality. The situation - that most people don't encounter the Names at that level - is because fanā is an act of Grace and not of ourselves, and Grace is, by nature, well, gratuitous.

[@QED_]

@@hafizullahsufi I accept your "what does this one do" distinction and your point about the Lataif in the context of teaching relationship. But to my mind, that then shifts the focus of the "correctness" -- to what effect an interpretation of the Lataif has and to the corresponding teaching relationship. Are all effects and all teachers equally good (?) If you'll concede the "no" of it . . . I'll agree to concede the "yes". On the basis of that common ground, would you maybe expand on your different "maps" of the Lataif (?) I'm personally familiar only with the Naqshbandi-Punjab version (described by Shah). The Naqshbandi-Mujaddidiyya . . . I've read about. Could you say briefly what characterizes the Chisti and Qadiri (?)

[@hafizullahsufi]

@@QED_ It doesn't have to be "correct," it just has to do what it says it does. "Are all effects of the Lataif and all teachers equally good (?)" Of course not. And Awakening is Grace and is un-caused, so the shaikh and the practices, while important, aren't the whole of the story. The Chishtīyya model, as it has been transmitted to me, has an arrangement where the Qalabīya ("mold," color battleship gray) is at the floor of the pelvis, the Nafsīya ("the breath") is canary yellow and is below the navel (equivalent to the lower T'an Tien), the Qalbīya ("heart") at the left breast (color ruby red), the Ruḥīya ("soul") in the center of the chest, color forest green, the Sirrīya ("secret"), color pearlescent white), at the right breast, the Khafīya, color indigo, at vertical centerline of the forehead and about a finger-width above the eyebrows (and is the portal to the Names), and the Ākhfaya, above the anterior fontanel, the color a shimmering, luminous black. As to the Qādiri's representation, I've only been initiated as a muḥibb for a year or so in that tariqat, so I can't say much (yet) about their system. Still getting my feet wet.

[@QED_]

@@hafizullahsufi This is interesting to compare -- thank you. So the Chisti have seven Lataif -- apparently the same number and names as the Kubrawi (the oldest Lataif system??), but with colors and locations different. Are these Lataif considered to be in any order of significance -- an ascending order, for example (?) The Chisti also have both Black and Blue Lataif in the head . . . whereas the Naqshbandi have only Black. So how do you view that (?) Yes, the Black of the Naqshbandi "does what it says it does". But it doesn't do what the Blue does. The Naqshbandi must not recognize a discernible difference between the Blue and the Black . . . or don't care. But I find that there is such a difference and that's important. So I'd say that, in this respect, the Chisti map is more "correct", in the sense that it's a finer or more complete map of the spiritual territory that most of us are likely to encounter . . .

[@hafizullahsufi]

​@@QED_ There's no hierarchy of importance. They are all equal and have their functions. (And the notion of the "chakras" being "higher" and "lower" is from the Western occultists, not the authentic yoga tradition.) The colors are empirically real, but they're not visible light, so they're not really colors.

[@haidermalik81]

Thank you for your answer. These are matters not familiar to the ordinary person (such as myself), and in the absence of a third opinion there is no way to confirm/deny the viewpoints. How have you become familiarized with this?

[@QED_]

See overview of the idea of the Lataif here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lataif-e-sitta

[@haidermalik81]

In what way was it incomplete? Did the occasion demand that he needed to be more complete in his explanation? Was what he said wrong, or was it not 'deep enough'? The explanation seems to be in response to a layman inquiry, so I think the nature of the audience should be kept in mind. You do speak of personal experience, so one has to assume you have it? Can you please elaborate? Thanks.

[@lifechoices6643]

I read somewhere that Sufism can operate on a person without a teacher too.

[@deanturner9959]

If that is true, you need not read that book again!

[@hafizullahsufi]

Perhaps. There are certainly natural mystics, but the *training* to become a Sufi requires a living teacher who is a product of the teaching & practices of the path.

[@hafizullahsufi]

A teacher is the usual - and by far the most reliable - way to "catch" Sufism. Corollary: The part of you that resists apprenticing yourself to a teacher is also going to keep you from hearing your own inner guidance clearly.

[@DanceSampler]

The Uwaisi transmission is or was the primary one within the Naqshbandis. Bahauddin Naqshbandi -I- Uwaisi.

[@DanceSampler]

@@hafizullahsufiThat would put Khidr out of a job and invalidate many accounts by Uwaiysi & Naqshbandi Sufis.,

[@lifechoices6643]

I think the science of Latifas can be immensely helpful to everyone,but I also sense disagreement among the Sufis themselves on this important issue.I rely upon my personal spirituality to open the Latifas and not upon a teacher.One can never know whether the teacher one has encountered is genuine or fake.Opening of latifas by a fake teacher can drown an aspirant in miseries.

[@marcosl7535]

+Sanjit Agnihotri It is said that the sincerity of the teacher corresponds to the sincerity of the student. If one is truly sincere, he will find the true teacher.

[@deanturner9959]

Sanjit, thankyou for your scholarly analysis

[@loopernow]

I remember reading recently Omar Ali-Shah (Idries' brother) saying (I'm paraphrasing) "If there were no greedy people [to buy stolen goods] there would be no thieves." This could be applied to the idea of finding a genuine versus fake teacher as well. Don't use your greed to find a teacher who will feed you "stolen" (fake) "goods". Use your more honest self. "Like speaks to like."

[@ShakeelDulmar]

Sanjit Agnihotri. Hello you can opt doing it yourself, but it's more difficult as you should keep yourself on track come what may. What I mean by on track is our dear Prophet Muhammad (saw) philosophy and the Quranic teaching.

[@HasanAli-gn8wd]

Reading moulana Romi Masanavi will open all latifas

[@ershibashi]

if you say so

[@S1mply2Much]

Could it not of been that he was experienced with different types of sufism from different cultural backgrounds I would think it hard to spend so much time studying sufism and the end result being a con man.

[@rubendez]

The correct way is what works for you.