Illusionists In AD&D

[@D_PIETZ]

The illusionist is as powerful as the player is creative and the DM will allow. The class does not engage in combat directly. It is sneaky and stealthy and uses brain over brawn. It also makes a good addition as a multi- or dual-class role.

[@satturnine7320]

Gnome thief/illusionist is a good supporting character for scouting and leading enemies into a party ambush

[@The_Custos]

A thinking man's character.

[@DrPluton]

I played one in 2nd edition (which had a better approach to the class). I liked making orcs believe there was a tunnel on a wall, causing the dumb orc to knock itself out so that I could backstab. I also saved our party paladin from being charmed by casing Deafness on him before he fought a harpy. I got to level 11 thief and 10 illusionist.

[@kentonkilgore317]

In our campaign, we've had illusionists using illusions to wound and kill opponents, thanks to this line from the description of Phantasmal Force on page 75 of the PHB: "When this spell is cast, the [caster] creates a visual illusion which will affect all believing creatures which view the Phantasmal Force, even to the extent of suffering damage from phantasmal missiles or falling into an illusionary pit full of sharp spikes." One of the illusionists in our campaign took that to the next step and duplicated magic-user spells like Fireball, which caused all sorts of headaches. To adjudicate that, I struck that line from the description for Phantasmal Force and ruled that unless a spell specifically says it does damage or causes death (such as Phantasmal Killer, or Shadow Monsters, or Shadow Magic), that illusions do not directly harm to their targets. I say, “directly cause damage,” because it would be totally legit for an illusionist to use their spells to fool opponents and put them in harm’s way. For example, an illusionist could stand on one side of a chasm and cast the illusion of a bridge (where there is none), then goad a pack of orcs into trying to run across it. A black pudding could be made to appear like a puddle of water. Poisonous mushrooms could look like delicious apples. And so on. While some might say that removing the ability for illusions to directly cause damage nerfs illusionists, I believe it further differentiates them from magic-users. Furthermore, it encourages cleverness and creativity: the illusionist definitely becomes the character class for thinking players. Illusionists are meant to beguile, to mislead, to trick. And who doesn’t love a trickster?

[@glenncox9128]

2nd edition addressed this issue and cleaned it up a lot.

[@acommonlistener1041]

Thor does'nt...

[@kentonkilgore317]

@@acommonlistener1041 😄

[@CaptCook999]

Ah yes, the I Don't Believe syndrome. We solved this problem with the "don't believe then don't get a saving throw" ruling. Because if you don't dodge the ray of death coming at you then you obviously don't get a saving throw. Yes, illusionists do get kinda dumped on. But if you play them right they can be more powerful than a magic user of the same level. One ruling that we made was that in order to do a proper illusion of some things, places, people, etc, you had to have seen it before. You couldn't make a "believable" basilisk if you had never seen one but only seen a drawing of one. A fireball wouldn't be quite believable if you hadn't ever seen what one looked like. So adjudication is the key for the Dungeon Master. As they could easily say that you had seen a fireball cast at the Mages School you visited recently. Another idea is using your illusions in your downtime and practicing. Just a few minutes of talking with the DM about some illusions you want to perfect could go a long way toward alleviating arguments later.

[@MWodenberg]

I loved playing an illusionist back in the day. It is a class that requires (and rewards) a creative player so it was my cup of tea. As I recall, any damage was ruled to be temporary illusory damage but if the monster thought they died, they did lose consciousness and coup de gras would finish the job. Illusions were particularly useful for avoid/running from monsters such as an illusory corridor continueing through a wall; at full speed that would cause some damage and maybe stun per a DM ruling. It was such a fun class for me.

[@MrSteveK1138]

My first character and made it to lvl 8

[@kuriboh635]

I think you have a perfectly valid point to everything you have mentioned. Although I would love to play an illusionist in adnd I just haven't been lucky enough to get a chance yet

[@CaptCook999]

Another thing I wanted to mention is about the Wand of Paralyzation. Since the only class that has a Paralyzation spell is the Illusionist, they should be able to use it. The spell is an area effect and the Wand is just a beam hitting a single target though. So adjudication would be needed by the DM.

[@newwavepop]

i dont remember exactly when i started playing but it was somewhere between 80-82 when i would have only been like 8 to 10, my father who was 39 years older than me had grown up loving those old swashbuckler and Sinbad films and was also a big Tolkien fan and he enjoyed playing those old war games with the little square cardboard pieces and hexagon maps. around that time in the very early 80s he rented our spare bedroom out to a coworker friends son that was attending college and he introduced us to D&D and roleplaying, i stopped playing in about the mid 90s because it was always just too difficult to get a party of people together whos schedules are worked out and now frankly im a rather antisocial shut in. but this just makes me think of all the classes i never actually even considered trying during those years, generally i was just a generic Ranger and i did a few Assassins and Magic Users but i dont think i EVER played an Illusionist. OR a Cleric even, or a Thief or Monk, or a Druid or Paladin. i also partially stopped playing because second edition had come out and people were switching to it and i was like im not buying all these books again the game works perfectly fine for me. a mixture of cheap and stubborn, or maybe not cheap as much as broke and not stubborn as much as i didnt see it necessary. and jeez last time i checked it was on like 5th edition now and kind of feels like a different game.

[@railroadbluesy2169]

I was looking at the spell lists of ADnD the other day and had a thought, and wondered if Gygax had planned it this way for the potential future, or if it was by chance. It's not a complete train of thought, but I still had it. I like the idea that a specialist magic-user subclass in ADnD gets the bread and butter power spells in the third level category at level 1, as you will notice a huge jump in power for the base magic-user once they get third level spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Phantasmal Force, etc...). So the illusionist gets phantasmal force 4 character levels early, and then more powerful versions of it, and their other illusion spells are often a bit stronger than their magic-user variants. You could essentially do the same base idea with any school of magic, bringing the third level spells down to first level and improving those spell types in general. Conjurers would get Monster Summoning I at level 1, makes sense. Abjurers would start with Dispel Magic, also makes sense. Evokers would get the fireball and lightning bolt (less OP than you think, they would only do 1d6 at level 1, halved for successful save). Transmuters would get powerful stuff like haste and slow, and also 10 billion other spells because they would have every spell anyway because almost every cool utility spell is alteration. Diviners get clairadience and clairvoyance, literally the ability to actually divine stuff at level 1. Enchanters get hold person and suggestion. An interesting one is necromancers. They would essentially get vampiric touch and spectral hand at level 1, and their animate dead could be a level 3 spell, which would bring them in line with clerics. Each subclass essentially skips 2 spell levels of weaker stuff at the expense of variety. I always thought of it as Magic-Users getting 9 spell levels because they were more powerful, but it is more like specialisations get to jump that early barrier and go straight to using more powerful spells, thus only needing 7 spell levels.

[@philotomybaar]

DMG page 39: they have a “secret tongue which every apprentice learns from his or her master…” Thus, no read or write spells required.

[@coachlarry6773]

I have only rolled up one Illusionist since 1983 but have quite a few illusionist/Thief’s. Good supporting character imo. The Illusionist makes you have a good Dex which is obviously a plus for a thief.

[@jamessatter7418]

The illusionist class was available to gnomes, who couldn't be magic-users, so I think a lot of illusionists were selected by players who wanted magical gnomes.

[@glenncox9128]

As far as disbelieving goes, I interpret that to mean that you are willing to subject yourself to the FULL effects of the spell IF it happens to be real. What this effectively means is that IF it IS REAL and not an illusion, you: 1) have no saving throw (auto-fail), 2) potentially take full damage, or 3) potentially effects last for maximum duration. I won’t employ points 2 & 3 if point 1 factors in. That is, it’s either/or as to whether a saving throw factors into the attack form or not. If you give up a saving throw, points 2 & 3 don’t factor in; but if there is no saving throw to give up, points 2 & 3 will kick in. With this caveat, you won’t have players “disbelieving everything”. When they say “I disbelieve”, they’ll mean it because there will be consequences if they are wrong.

[@ryannilsson7955]

Great analysis, thanks! I think the way I would run Illusionists is that if the spell target fails their save, then they are enwrapped in an illusion like a powerful hallucination, and don't have the ability to "disbelieve." Otherwise, that would be pretty annoying to be able to totally undermine a Class's ability just by choosing to not take them seriously. Also, it restores some credibility to the Class, and would even makes it so a player could announce their status as an Illusionist and not have to masquerade as a Magic-User, if victims of their spells (who failed their saving throws) had no ability to disbelieve. But the Illusionist Class definitely could have been designed better, that's for sure! I also think there could have been more cross-over by giving access to more Magic-User spells earlier.

[@richarddillinger8768]

The Gnome race is the only way to play an Illusionist. Thief Illusionist is a nice split class.

[@GlenFinney]

I did enjoy playing gnome illusionists in AD&D!

[@MarkCMG]

Thanks for the video! Definitely one of the toughest things to adjudicate in 1E AD&D and I have tried from time to time when it was necessary but I don't go out of my way to make it happen. It can be an interesting villain class for a one-shot but doing that in an ongoing campaign is just begging for a player to want to play one next chance they get. 👀

[@brooksrownd2275]

You describe (rules) vagueness as a weakness of the game, but I see as a feature and strength. ;) You're supposed to be creating the game that fits your imagination, so I enjoy the opportunity to flesh out the fun things like magic item creation to my tastes. Just give me enough framework, ornaments and vague ideas to build on. :D When I got a chance to play AD&D again in the 2010s the two classes I used were Illusionist and Assassin, because my imagination had always been stoked by the mysterious air around the two and the way they operate quietly or in the shadows. Being an Illusionist (and to some extent assassin) is about always being alert and forward-thinking for opportunities to deceive. It was always quite stressful to approach every session knowing I had to create instead of react, but creating is extra fun when it goes well.

[@The_Custos]

100% agree

[@The_Custos]

Love the class, very happy with a player that runs one.

[@schuylercorson8074]

Never found a real use for this class. At lower levels they always were little more than meat shields for the party. Our party spent far too much time in adventures having to stop and rest so that the magic users and illusionists could restock their spells. Thank you for presenting this class in a calm and polite manner.

[@brooksrownd2275]

how was the guy staying out of trouble in the back of the group your "meat shield"? ;D

[@The_Custos]

Gnome thief/illusionists have an illustrious history, and can punch above their weight.

[@glenncox9128]

Some illusions appear only in the mind of the believer, victim, or spell subject (phantasmal killer, psionic invisibility), while other illusions appear like a hologram in physical space which are viewable by anyone and everyone. The rules are pretty unclear on this distinction, but it’s an important distinction to keep in mind and to make. I tend to think most illusions are of the general viewing variety, and not particular to one person’s imagination.

[@Classic_DM]

Love love love the Illusionist!

[@CaptCook999]

The Level 7 spell which allows you to take First Level Magic User spells is a little odd and hard to follow. This is the way I read it. First, you have to seek out one of the Magic User spells. I personally would force the Illusionist to get Read Magic in order to "Read" any of the other Spells. There are 20 of the 30 First Level spells on the list and 2 are already Illusionist spells, so there are 8 that you cannot get. The Illusionist gives up a 7th level slot to take the 1st level spell option. He then gets 4 level 1spell slots plus an additional spell slot for each level above 14. So they would get 4 spell slots at 14th, 5 at 15th, etc. Also, at 15th level they would get 2 7th level spells. So they could then get 5 more 1st level spell slots by giving up that 7th level spell. So let's say a level 14 illusionist finds a scroll of Read Magic and Magic Missile. He copies the spells into his spell book. Then he gives up his 7th level spell slot to memorize Magic Missile 4 times. With his new found power of the Magic Missile spell, our Illusionist gets to 15th level. He would gain a spell slot and now can memorize 5 Magic Missile spells. But he also learned a new spell, Shield, which doesn't last long so he also memorizes that spell 5 times. After level 15, illusionists don't gain another 7th level spell until 20th level. So at level 16 they could take 1 additional 1st level spell and get 6 spells in place of a 7th level spell or 12 spells in place of both of his 7th level spells. So at 19th level they could give up 2 7th level spells and have 18 1st level spells. And by that time they would also have at least 6 level 1 spells in their spell book. At 20th level they would gain another 7th level spell and could take 30 first level spells instead of 3 7th level spells. So their spells at level 20 would be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 spell level 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 spell slots And they can give up 1 level 7 spell slot to gain 10 first level spells. And I'm not even going to try and figure out what a level 26 illusionist would get with 6 level 7 spells.

[@vernonator63]

You are 100% right that the Illusionist relies on the DM - good or bad. If you follow 1e RAW an Illusionist can get really out of hand at low levels.

[@glenncox9128]

The magic-user spell description for Phantasmal Force states that the spell can do “actual damage”, which is a ridiculous “Nightmare on Elm Street” concept which leads to many contradictions and inconsistencies. TSR knew this, and cleaned it up in 2nd edition. I play it as the spell doing “illusory damage which appears actual”.

[@The_Custos]

Self-harm

[@glenncox9128]

@@The_Custos Not really, although I know many people have used this explanation to describe what’s going on. The PHB really didn’t give a sound explanation for illusions, so they left players to concoct their own explanations. 2e corrected this oversight.

[@glenncox9128]

Oh yeah, it’s worth pointing out that non-intelligent creatures won’t be affected by illusions.

[@angelmanfredy]

ILLUSIONISTS ARE GREAT. With creativity illusionists using phantasmal force, paralyzation, suggestion and invisibility are AWESOME. Enemies can take damage and be affected by illusions they think are real. Look up Gary Con channel with Stefan Pokorny as DM and a series of “Bingo Shortwick Adventures”. My gnome Glum has been highly effective and saved the party with even simple spells like Fog (which I have used twice to completely nullify archer ambushes from above AND a greater basilisk). Most creatures will NOT get saving throws on phantasmal force as a good illusion won’t attempt saves. Also, even very high HD monsters need an 11 on a spell saving throw which is a 50% chance to work. I’ve paralyzed a giant scorpion tearing through our group and other big baddies. Many monster savings throws will be more like 13-14 or even 16. They often work. Phantasmal Killer AGAIN they are not making saving throws all the time. Doesn’t phantasmal killer also impose a saving throw penalty in many cases? Anyway, used it against a Remoraz successfully in the classic Frost Giant adventure. Only downside is against undead who shouldn’t be or outright aren’t susceptible to mind spells. Automatons as well.

[@mikedeck8381]

Have to agree with what some people are saying, that 2e, the introduction of the specialist mage and other rule changes were regarding illusions were an improvement. The 1e rules in this instance really depend on the skill of the DM. 1e was a a game that in general depended on the skill of the DM. 2e on the other hand could gloss over the DM being a little weak.

[@rodneykelly8768]

One option for dealing with players that constantly try to disbelieve everything, is to allow them to attempt to disbelieve. If they secede, them they have no defense against the very real damage they are taking.

[@kentonkilgore317]

You mention that you think that AD&D tops out around 12th level. I'd love to see a video about the adjustments you've made to the game for playing high-level characters.

[@CaptCook999]

Let's look at Illusionists spells for a while. This may take me a couple of posts. Level 1 Phantasmal Force= a level 3 MU spell Level 2 Blindness= a level 3 Cleric spell and is permanent unless dispelled= a level 3 MU spell or a dispell Illusion as a dispell magic spell. Or the illusionist can end it when desired. Deafness= as Blindness but no Cleric equivalent Mirror Image= Gains 1 more image and lasts 1/3 longer Ventriloquism= Longer range and duration Level 3 Dispell Illusion= dispells any phantasmal Force & works as a Dispell Magic on illusion/phantasm spells cast by an Illusionist Fear= a level 4 MU spell but with no material component Paralyzation= permanent and has no equivalent. Takes a dispell Illusion or dispell magic to end or caster can end at will Level 4 Confusion= level 4 MU or level 7 Druid Emotion= has one effect which is equal to the level 7 Cleric spell Symbol Phantasmal Killer= closest similar spell would be the level 7 Druid spell Finger of Death Level 5 Chaos= level 7 Druid spell confusion but effects ALL in area Shadow Magic= does 1 point of damage per level to each affected (minimum 10 HP) or as per the spell used if save is made. A Magic Missile spell would have 5 missiles and would actually do more damage to 5 individuals failing their saving throws, go figure Level 6 Demi-Shadow Magic= as Shadow Magic but 2 points per level (minimum 24 HP) Level 7 Prismatic Spray= similar to the level 9 MU spell Prismatic Sphere but it can be aimed at a group instead of enemies moving into the sphere, which they probably wouldn't do My next post will discuss the Level 1 MU spells so check it out.

[@maecenus778]

I like the idea of illusionists but it really depends on your DM on how good they are. My current DM seems to like illusion spells so my Phantasmal Force spell, for example, is able to do some amazing things!

[@glenncox9128]

Paladins get Cleric spells, and Rangers get Druid and Magic-user spells. It was officially decided (in Polyhedron or Dragon magazines?) that they don’t use them at their current fighting level, but as 1st level at whatever level they gained the ability to use them, and increasing from that point. I don’t know whether this should apply to Illusionists who gain 1st level Magic-user spells at 14th level. The other question this opens up, is whether this ability (considering Paladins, Rangers, & Illusionists separately and specifically) allows them to use scrolls or magic items of the spell classes in question. The rules do detail at least some of this (Rangers), but I think some questions were left unanswered. It’s something to consider.

[@retrodmray]

Would really love to hear how you've adjusted for high level play like you say here, sir! 🤓👊

[@page121tabletoproleplaying4]

I can do a video on that.

[@duanevp]

Illusionists wouldn't require constant negotiation with the DMG if the descriptions of the Phatasmal Force spells were properly/competently written - especially with the broken idea of how to deny targets any saving throws. That funky "have to disbelieve to be permitted to save" isn't a general rule for handling illusions - it's strictly applied to those spells. It becomes a problem by their descriptions of how they work being SO open-ended that they virtually don't have any limitations but what the DM puts on them. They can even out-perform much higher level and more restrictive illusionist spells like shadow monsters and shadow magic for mimicking monsters and spells with no advice whatsoever to the DM how to prevent those abuses. The other issue I always saw come up is more the wildly mistaken conception of the class as a whole that players are given. They want to use illusions to KICK ASS, and that just is never what the class was designed to do. They have SOME limited damage-dealing spells, yes, but overall a player should NEVER EVER be desiring to play an illusionists if they want to blow s*** up. Their spells are designed to utilize strategies and tactics of deception, confusion, misdirection, delay, obfuscation, concealment and disguise, NOT direct damage. If you as a player don't want your characters influence to be vastly less flashy and in-your-face then you need to forget the idea of being an illusionist and just be a magic-user. That alone helps 1000% with how a player then tries to use those open-ended Phantasmal Force effects, and leads to vastly less justified opposition from the DM as to what the illusionist PC is trying to do and how they are trying to do it.

[@stevehall5000]

i'm not an mu guy but one of my most powerful characters was a f/ill, I did have fun early in his career coming up with ised onllusions but it quickly became more of a hastle and I just focused on the fighter aspect

[@AlanSmitheeman]

Gygax really messed up on the area of effect. It should be listed as cubic feet, not square feet. Square feet is two dimensional - meaning the illusion would just be on the floor or a wall like a TV image. Cubic square footage for area of effect includes all three dimensions (length, width, and height) to make the illusion truly three dimensional in appearance. Also, the base area of effect (starting at 40 sq feet plus 10 per level) really isn't that large. A 50th level illusionist would only be able to create a square footage area of effect with only 540 square feet (40 sq feet base plus (10*50) equals 540 square feet. That's about the size of a studio apartment. So the 50th level illusionist couldn't even create a large phalanx of orcs or even a big dragon. Finally, Demi Shadow Magic and the related spells have full damage effect if the targets fully believe the illusions. If they make their saving throws, THEN the damage is the percentage that's listed in the respective spells. Overall, I agree with you that the Illusionist class is given short shrift, is under-developed, and has a comically low number of spells compared to all the other major spell caster classes. I would argue that Spectral Force is the bread and butter Illusionist spell because it encompasses both Audible Glamour and Phantasmal Force.

[@KhanTrav]

I started playing back in 79 or so and I have never seen a player run one ever.

[@The_Custos]

Run two games now. One thief illusionist.

[@Davidballway]

Going say I am enchanter or conjuror

[@MsGorteck]

Since there is not a Write spell for Illusionist how do you do scrolls? You told me in anouther response that you require MUs to know Write. Are Illusionist allowed to write scrolls in your campaign? Are they allowed to create magic items? Potions? It might be nice to do a follow-up on this class addressing some of the 'not thought out' parts of this class. I have always thought this was a poorly designed class. Thank you again.

[@philotomybaar]

I’m not sure where the idea that magic users and illusionists get bonus spells for high intelligence comes from. This would be very unbalancing, but if it’s in the books then I’ve been playing wrong for more than 40 years.

[@page121tabletoproleplaying4]

That's a house rule I've used for years.

[@philotomybaar]

@@page121tabletoproleplaying4Thanks for the response.

[@Elkantar_Rostorgh231]

Ah yes, the progenitor of the Specialized Wizard aside the generic mage. I always wondered if 1e had other Specialized Magic Users like Necromancers or Conjurers, or if Illusionist was the only one.

[@MsGorteck]

I think the illusionist was for 1st edition the only specialist class.

[@Elkantar_Rostorgh231]

@@MsGorteck I mean, there must've been another spec wizard type class in a Dragon Mag prior to 2e, otherwise in 1e that only leaves the Wu Jen as the only other wizard type class.

[@MsGorteck]

@@Elkantar_Rostorgh231 To be honest, I forgot about the Wu Jen. Though I would have thought they just self-imposed rules for living/mental preparation as opposed to being a specialist class. But it has been so long since I've read D&D Orential Adventures that I don't know. I do know that if you were to have self-imposed upon yourself only using one type of spells in AD&D 1st you got no benefit; if I have forgotten something please enlighten me.

[@kuriboh635]

Quick question. Have you ever let players play classes from dragons, or do you not like that as an idea?

[@page121tabletoproleplaying4]

Yup. I'll be adding to this series with some of the NPC classes that are played at my table.

[@kuriboh635]

@Page121 Tabletop Roleplaying Games that will be awesome. My wife first cherecter was actually a witch from an early dragon issue and she loves it

[@page121tabletoproleplaying4]

@@kuriboh635 The Witch is one of the NPC classes I'm going to look at.

[@aubreymorris9183]

Go read the color spray spell. You seem to be an as written type of guy on the subject of spells. No save under lvl 6 vs this. It's not a sleep spell but it does have some of the same teeth. Agreed it's a shite class though. IMO it's the best spell at lvl 1 if you are an illusionist however for offense.