Important video. Peter R. de Vries and Martijn Froon's final (Lost) take on the disappearance of K+L

My blog about this disappearance case: koudekaas.blog...
With a flicker of doubt in the end. Interviews from April 11th and November 21st 2014. Translated into English by me. Thanks to Juan for finding and sharing this video. Please check my very detailed and comprehensive blog posts for more information and photos regarding the disappearance of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon: koudekaas.blog...
All the translated videos about this case I put in this playlist: • Translated videos abou...
Also check out Juan's videos on the case: / videos

[@gerbil61]

7:25 "So then they would have reached the point at 2.30pm where they wondered : What should we do? Either we turn around and walk back, knowing it will be another 4 hours before we get back. Or we keep walking, in the hope of reaching something." Either we turn back in the certainty of reaching civilization (houses, a restaurant, transport, cell phone coverage) before nightfall, following a path which we are familiar with. Or we continue walking away from Boquete on an unfamiliar path, into a region where the map is blank, in the hope of reaching "something" useful, sooner or with less effort, avoiding some mud and a hill or two and the tedium of retracing our steps - and in the hope of avoiding worse hazards. Yeah, difficult choice Martijn. Certainty vs blind hope. Toss a coin?

[@Kevin-tg4lv]

I could draw a map from google in paper with crayons and never get lost in these jungles, 2 days max to return home, the cellphones are the key piece here, why didn't these girls left at least a message to their families in some form of text if they met certain death from starvation and dirty water poisoning? what kind of animal is capable of killing 2 girls and leave their belongings organized? no signs of struggle, blood, anything, and why the strange photos?

[@adish7275]

Exactly.

[@deliriumbee4678]

The water is crystal clear from the ravine there no poisoned water in El pianista even your guides drink from it

[@NeweyAdrian1]

@@deliriumbee4678 Because their immune system is used to it. Kris was already having stomach pains in the days before the hike, if she drank this water she would get very ill. Which in my case explains why she "possibly" died earlier with Lisanne not wanting to leave her body alone and in one desperate attempt of insomnia made the night photos. Absence of bones is easily explained. they possibly got carried away by a flashfood (dead or alive) , which explains why only little remains were found, the river was known as a crusher and was very dangerous, they possibly did not know this when they were stationary at the river.

[@bladerunner6]

that animal is the worst animal on the planet, its called a criminal human being in search of money

[@susannak1755]

​@@deliriumbee4678yeah I'd drink that water. Natural clear water is not bad, in the jungle far away from cities. The idea that it's "poisonous" is ridiculous.

[@jetpetty1613]

They take comfort in that K & L died a natural death. How do they know this? What evidence is there for this? I know this was a TV show; however, it seems critical analysis was not used by the guests. Where is the evidence for either a natural or an unnatural death? Who can emphatically state one or the other based on evidence?

[@scarletr.7753]

Exactly. If anything, the forensic findings seem to point away from a simple accident. But that is just subjective interpretation, according to many. Seems the interviewer, who is very good usually, really treaded very softly here, careful not to ask critical questions and turning this 'story', as he consistently called it, upside down. Might have been cruel perhaps. But would have loved to hear Peter and Martijns point of view on the intact ball of skin from Lisanne, found 5 months after they went missing. They knew about it by the time this interview took place. But left it out, as most people do. Especially curious to have heard the take from Peter R. de Vries on it, who is so secure in quoting Farc members that a body is all but gone within 5 days in the jungle over there

[@moderngeaisha5113]

What are they talking about, rolled up skin and a perfectly sliced off foot STILL in a boot is not a natural death 😳😳😠😠

[@moderngeaisha5113]

@@scarletr.7753 This intact ball of skin proves everything for me. No other animal could have possibly taken the skin off and balled it up and kept it intact for months only to then carefully place it out in the jungle for investigators to find as if to say tauntingly "I did it and you can't prove it and you can't catch me"... No that is sick HUMAN behavior. 😢😢😢😢

[@scarletr.7753]

@@moderngeaisha5113 I agree. But I do wonder if a 3rd person would have dropped it there or 'found' it there on purpose, 5 months later? Or if it fell off by accident for instance, when body parts were moved around for instance.

[@saltpeter7429]

Does the rolled up skin possibly imply that Lisanne was ALIVE and in captivity when the investigators and her Dad were searching for her? If it was of a very recent stage of decomposition would that imply that she had been killed fairly recently in regard to the finding of the ball of skin? Because she had been meant to be trafficked and things just got too "hot" for her captors to make the deal go down? They had killed Kris early in the kidnapping because she had not been the intended target of the trafficking? Thus bleached bones from a much earlier " Pro" chemical disposal? I am presenting everything in question form so as to not be accused of formulating useless, foolish conspiracy theory. As if people are not allowed to deviate from the lost narrative. If we dont let flow, we could lose an idea that could be of value. I appreciate reading the ideas of people on this comment thread.

[@roberthawes9182]

Amazed that Martijn Froon has chosen to believe the fairy tale that they got lost and passed away in nature looking at the stars! I think he is deluding himself but draws comfort from this theory as it helps him to move on.

[@DePeaceHunter]

U dont know if its fairytail. It amazed me how people acting like they know for sure what happened

[@johnjepsen4243]

@@DePeaceHunter... Their rented room was ransacked the next day by tour guide Feliciano. Fairytale.

[@NeweyAdrian1]

He is just being realistic with all the info they have. There are little signs of faul play

[@larvin6910]

They got lost. Their digital footprint in my opinion prooves they had their phones on them the whole time untill the time Kris pin was entered incorrectly. I agree their may have been some foul play after they were dead with their back pack maybe for the reward money .. but it doesn't make sense that they were murdered. What murderer spends hours in the jungle deep at night taking photos and rings emergency services 77 times then spends hours photoshopping photos. It's crazy

[@brucegough]

​@@larvin6910 it wasn't a jungle. It was a trail used by locals and tourists. Murderer could easily live right along the trail. There were only a handful of emergency calls. Only 2 the first 20 hrs. But just 2 hrs after their last photo. Seems to me either they weren't kidnapped until day 3 or someone took their phones and checked them regularly with calls and wifi searches to make sure there was no accidental cell service. The very few calls placed to 112 and 911 all happened at roughly the same time of day minus the 8th. Whoever had the iphone could not get into it after the 5th which means it's owner Kris was either dead, not cooperating or perhaps too near death to remember or cooperate. Or then again maybe Lisanne had forgotten the password and her friend was gone. I just lean foul play because I can't believe anybody alone with nothing to do for 11 days wouldn't think of leaving behind a video or photo with the 3 devices they had. These women were glued to their phones. Their phone use after 2pm doesn't make any sense. And of course even though 507 is deleted there could have been 200 507s deleted. Before the 90 photos taken 8 days later. It was April 8th and the phones were locked. A murderer couldn't access the camera at this point to delete the photos. And that's why the camera was accessed each day. Someone trying to cover up their tracks.

[@jlvandat69]

Thanks much for posting this, Scarlett and I agree completely with your comments. The two men in this video almost completely ignored the possibility of foul play. I have watched dozens of videos about this case. For some reason, I just can't let it go. Everything I have learned literally screams, "Something bad happened near the summit where they were supposed to turn around, causing them to continue on." There's many important facts that were ignored by these 2 gentlemen, #1 is that the two girls were in very good physical condition and smart. #2 is the condition and location of the remains, which completely discredits the theory of natural decomposition due to climate, etc. I could go on and on. I was not the least bit impressed with these two men, who I am sure have good intent and experience. Whatever happened near the summit caused the 2 to alter their original plan and (I believe) get lost in the jungle, eventually making their way to the small river below. They were smart enough to use the trail if at all possible, or find it if they were forced to leave it briefly for some reason. Someone caused them to leave the trail and remain away from the trail. As i have posted on other similar websites, the backpack is also a key piece of evidence. It was found relatively undisturbed with all belongings near the river. Most probable explanation is it was placed there by (1) the person(s) who committed the murders or (2) an indigenous native who happened to find it somewhere. There's a high probability the backpack was with the 2 ladies when they were harmed, so whoever did the harm was very unsophisticated. Most people with criminal minds would have destroyed or buried the backpack. I just hope the case remains active, in some way long enough to find out what actually happened.

[@noleenpeake2164]

Exactly, everything points towards foul play,I've watched countless of videos,this is just to sooth the families conscience.

[@acejake7500]

i guess it is quite off topic but do anybody know of a good place to watch new movies online?

[@iiLoveAutumn]

To leave a backpack which contains over 80 dollars of cash is very generous for a indigenous in a country where corruption is the very reason because of 🤑. I'm sure the strong currency would make it very difficult for the indigenous to resist, doing everyday hard work for just a fraction of that amount of money. No; an indigenous can be ruled out.

[@BackpackerCoach]

I totally agree with you Jeff and Scarlett

[@brucegough]

​@@iiLoveAutumn Maybe not so generous if it originally had say $1000 in it to start with. Plus their organs can fetch 15 to 20 times as much as $83.

[@Rikimaru861]

I think that the girls were kidnapped, like majority of people here. I made two theories, the first one is that the girls went on the trail , reached the top and then they sensed that someone, or some people, were following them. So they decided to continue further on the trail, eventually ending up on being caught by the criminals. The second theory , based on the fact that some people may had seen them later that afternoon back in Boquete asking for a taxi or bus and waiting at the bus stop: they came back, and were meeted by some people that bringer them on the hot spring to take a bath ( Scarlet, do we know when the bath photo was taken and what day it was?) assuming that the two girls were them, which I think they was. This would explain the fact that they are duck into the water, because they didn’t have costumes for this unplanned bath and they simply swam without the bra’s founded folded on their backpack. But again, these are all assumptions, the night pictures for example, are a complete mystery, the possible tampering of such pics and the strange deaths occurred at the supposed guys , the supposedly dismembered bodies of the girls make me lean towards cartel or gang related kidnapping gone extremely wrong..... and they just wanted to get rid of the bodies using acid to dissolve the corpses..... this really sended me shivers down my spine, but unfortunately there have been cases in the past of such crimes here in Italy, almost all were criminal organization related. You’re doing a great job Scarlet and I am reading your blog, keep up the good work Marco

[@scarletr.7753]

I agree Marco, also with the two main possible theories. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. And thanks for your kind words. The bathing photo was unofficially leaked, by the same person/people who also leaked the diaries and night photos. There are no hard facts unfortunately, other than it being named 'photo Sabroson'. That is the name of a local restaurant and a son of the owners has been implicated in thge disappearance, but nothing definitive. He may have taken the photo, which was already named in gossip in April of 2014. Things point to it being found on the phone of Osman Valenzuela, who is also pictured in the photo (black cap on) and who was found dead on April 4th of 2014.

[@Kylieahann]

If they were kidnapped then they wouldn't have had their phones in the days after where they were trying to call for help. I don't believe they were kidnapped at all.

[@johnair1]

@@Kylieahann To make it look like they got lost in the forrest the kidnapper had to Mae fake emergency calls. If you look at the times for the first 2-3 days ist almost at the exact time which means that they set up an alarm reminder to when call again to not forget it. If you are in the jungle you will try everything (Sms, Notes, Several calls) *BUT* this did not happen. Also they would take much more pictures.

[@johnair1]

​@@scarletr.7753 Good theories. However looking at the evidence its very unlikely they went to the hot spring the day they disappeared. Maybe earlier 1-2 Days or by force after the 1st. The thing is they went to the top did a lot of pictures and in one of the last pictures on the way down you can see one of the girls looking slightly irritated and scared when Lisanne took the pic. After this i assume they might have taken a Photo of those that followed threatened them hence why it got deleted (#509) maybe they also took a few more which were all deleted and then when the new ones after a week were taken the camera automatically started at 509 again. After this there Camera was taken away and probably at the same time they tried to make a SOS call before the Phones also were taken. I assume they were pushed by force to a location with a car then pushed into and kept at a more remote location for several days alive. I also think it was done by the Gang around Gonzales and other friends and bc they are linked to bigger personas who are active in Drugs, trafficking etc those were afraid of all the media publicity hence to cover it up they tried to get rid of many as possible who could unmask them. Its quite a sad story but that would also explain why several people around this case did not survive. Those people then also placed certain things deliberately to make it look like an accident in the jungle so that the media will stop investigating. They knew exactly that if they don't do this people and government will ig deeper and there while business was at threat. This theory makes sense bc of all the evidence that was presented.

[@pyruvicac.id_]

​@@johnair1ikr!! Honestly have a very hard time believing intelligent young women would try to call 112 in Panama.. makes no f#cking sense to me.. I feel they returned to town after sensing being followed on the trail and somehow got snatched by the person they went into the car with....

[@johnplaid648]

The two looked at their watches and saw that in order to return to their room before dark they must begin their return at a certain time. They were not fools. They were kidnapped and murdered. Panama does not want to lose tourist revenue.

[@SimpleLifeAlways81]

Henry killed those girls and the dad Feliciano covered it up for him.

[@bladerunner6]

you are spot on bro

[@catherinebrau3523]

They were haunted and murdered and dismembered, poor women, a an haunting cold case

[@bladerunner6]

very unfortenately that is probably the truth

[@adish7275]

The brother is talking nonsense. No one will say to themselves let's just keep going in the jungle in Hope's of getting somewhere instead of turning back, even if it a three hour hike. And if his sister wouldn't like the trail, well that's more reason to turn back. Also, there is no logic in thinking "we dont want to spend the night , so we will go off trail into the jungle " they would have been in a hurry to get back , and probably even make it on time. I cant believe he can be this illogical.

[@davidmullen6011]

There is no easy answer to this, no way to know the truth. But I have to say when I look at their progress to the top of the mountain I see them working very well together, they are sharing the backpack and the camera, they are aware of their surroundings all the way up to the top, and I have always had the sense that the original plan was only to get to to top, then return back down. But for whatever reason we see Kris Kremers racing down the other side, always well in front of Lisanne, she isn't sharing the backpack or camera, and it is all rather worrying as it looks as if Kris is bull-headedly charging onwards all the time while Lisanne is either reluctant or not completely fit enough to keep pace with her. I was having a very interesting chat with someone very well informed on this:kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXfCanScp7CKgck&lc=z23icj5zxmmpclebo04t1aokg2uatag1eb1nyl3eekgirk0h00410.1608820968398276 and he pointed me to a video of some locals walking the same trail Lisanne and Kris did, they walk through the familiar landmarks on the trail but go a little further still beyond where the Kremers did on their walk and show what is just beyond the small meadow they close their own recreation of their daughters walk on. Anyway this video from the locals shows us the area just beyond that point the Kremers stopped their own walk at, and it shows us that there is a huge farming clearance just beyond. There are two farming huts seen, with grazing cattle, the same that were likely seen by the Kremers' in their Answers for Kris video, and as a sight it really makes you think... If Kris and Lisanne made it this far, if Kris was convinced that the trail looped back to Boquete and you accept they would have arrived at this place with the farms and the huge hilled clearance at around 3pm I calculate. It's a huge area, very hilly, it would take some time to carry on through and over it to the other side, and.... I'm having trouble seeing them doing that. Even if Kris was thinking the trail looped around, given the timing and the landscape here, doubt must surely have hit her at this point, and seeing this area.. It's at the end of the video below, well worth watching s it offers an alternative tour of the Pianista trail and takes you further on, the fact there are clearances just beyond the meadow Kris' parents stopped their walk at is supported by aerial maps, but this video below offers firsthand evidence and shows just how uneven and difficult the terrain is. kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZ_JoJ9ngMuIhsWd

[@adish7275]

@@davidmullen6011 I will watch, very interesting. Even if you accept they got lost, why isn't there another picture after that little stream, did they immediately get lost or hurt themselves after that photo, so they couldn't or didn't bother to take another one. how did their backpack get to where it got, and how was it dry? Where are the rest of their remaineds and how did BOTH of them get to an accident that broke their bones the way they broke, like think what a coincidence for that to happen!! The more I think about this case I figure the lost/ accident theory is nonsensical. Also they supposedly took 90 photos at night couldn't they take one photo of themselves or a written message to their parents, couldn't they send one What'sUp message. There is no way this is a lost/ accident case. No way.

[@moderngeaisha5113]

Clever about the battery?! But WHYYYYY would you NOT leave any message in the notes of your phone or text anyone if you could?! Clearly they couldn't!!!

[@callyacaos5339]

People always recite these Missing 411 interviews where experts talk about the illogical behavior of people getting lost alone in the woods. This is true to some point, BUT you mustn't ignore what people who got lost or were in hopeless situations achieved by gathering all their strength that was left. People cut of their limbs to free themselves to reach civilization, drank their own body fluids, ate bugs and worms, crawled on their tummy for miles, people even ate their dead friends to survive. So if you point out typical illogical behavior, don't leave the phenomenal great strength aside other people showed in the same situations. Here we have two mature girls, one of them was already in South America. They had phones and a camera, why should you use it till the 10th of April and then just put it in a bag and die like it was a normal thing to do? Everyone of us would have tried to send a text message of any kind, or record a short video of our situation, IF we would be in control of our equipment. The only reasons not to do it are 1st you went insane and forgot how to use this stuff, 2nd you lost them and so the access to do so, or you are hindered by something/ someone to do so. There were numerous cases worldwide where kidnappers allowed their hostages to use their phones for a purpose they wanted them to. And the hostages did as they were told. This would explain a lot in this case. Remember all the phone calls and text messages from people on September 11th 2001? A lot of people did not know it was the last of them before they die. Keep that in mind, if you theorize about westerners with phones and cameras on their body in such situations. This was not an accident, not with the indications and more information we have today. This was a crime and the criminals are still around and will do this again if they feel the need for that, because they got away with it AGAIN. And that is the worst that could have happen to Boquete and Altos de Romero. This will spread and people will negatively associate this region with this story.

[@digigeni3108]

The parents clearly demonstrated that the first emergency call was made way before the river and monkey rail bridge where the bones were found. If they were capable of moving and not disabled by injury (what was the emergency?) they would have gone back, if they were being stopped or forced they would have carried on if at all.

[@digigeni3108]

This seems to have been resolved by the unspecified female witness statement who knew Gonazalez son - Henry Eliezer Gonzalez(suspect). Makes more sense and explains the missing data via a local gov cover up!

[@gronz]

Why does Peter always have the opposite opinion of what really happened? He seems stupid, but probably isn't and has obscure reasons to avoid the possible real scenario,

[@setzunajeansummers2322]

It is so sad that these countries are so poor that the police are not only corrupt but that hardly any money is available. When something happens to locals, they get little help because the equipment is simply missing. Then there are tourists from rich countries and they are helped. Hope that will change. We must fight poverty. This will solve so many problems. Everyone should get the help they need.

[@scarletr.7753]

Did you know that the parents of these girls from the rich country of the Netherlands funded a lot of the research themselves? They set up a fund at home and used that money for a lot of the search operations. Not all of them, and the media circus forced the Panamanians to also come up with helicopters and sinaproc, but it has been said and written that whenever the parents arrived in Boquete, the searches were started again, but after they left again, nothing more was done. For what is worth of that info. But in 2014 alone 50-something people disappeared in that province and in Boquete and surroundings there are many dozens of missing person's cases. But like you say; when it are poor girls and when there is no international media landing for reports, there is hardly anything done to find them. Poverty is one aspect but do not overlook the aspect of corruption. You even have it in some European countries, it is not solely due to poverty but also has a cultural element to it, sad to say

[@nedmerrill6228]

Would be interesting to hook tour guide to a lie detector.

[@goonerash]

The problem with that is there is no hard evidence gained, if he is telling the truth it doesn't rule out foul play, if he is lying about something then you need more evidence for a conviction...!!

[@nedmerrill6228]

@@goonerash evidence is all destroyed. This would be just for family at this point.

[@SimpleLifeAlways81]

Henry killed those girls - zeroooop doubt

[@acb5245]

@@SimpleLifeAlways81 I agree.

[@pablofsi]

If you think about it well, the fact that they didn't send text messages is a clear indication that they were being kidnapped, because text messages stay there as proof someone that has access to the phone could read, while call attempts don't leave traces.

[@moderngeaisha5113]

Oh come on.... Disoriented to that point when your life depends on it and you've been entering the code for days probably years?!! Nahhhhhh

[@scarletr.7753]

Yeh, pretty sketchy explanations by this crime reporter, I agree. He has no clue, never even visited Panama or that Boquete trail, so he is just making theories up as he goes I think. One clear trail to follow, but they supposedly wanted to go down faster by going off trail into completely unknown territory? The videos of the Pianista trail show that it makes no sense to go off trail, certainly not for casual daytime hikers like Kris and Lisanne in shorts and sleeveless tops.

[@larvin6910]

I think he has to think and accept certain things to cope. Im obsessed with this case wanting to know what happened cabt imagine what its like for famoly ❤

[@brucegough]

That brother is totally naive or someone with powerful connections has threatened him. Nobody with a phone and a fully charged camera in the jungle for 10 days forgets to use it to leave a message behind. Perhaps the police ask families of murder victims to pretend the case is closed so that criminals will slip up thinking they got away with it. That's the only explanation I have for this guy's daft conclusions.

[@liou1369]

There was a tv show called Break Free, about Lisanne's last trip where she did not come home from. I believe it was her niece who said, that it gave them peace of mind to think about it this way. I believe it is just a way for them to cope with what happened. Kris her parents did an interview a couple of years ago and you can just read between the lines that they are still not sure what happened and still have a lot of questions. But what is the point for them, Panama listed it as an accident, case closed.

[@LaRagazzaNellOmbra]

I'm surprised they didn't talk about the backpack found many km away in such perfect conditions, and the shorts of Kris laying in a rock. I would have liked to hear their thoughts

[@scarletr.7753]

I agree Martina.. Some very odd things have not been discussed indeed. I wrote this on my blog about this interview in the video: My feeling is that this is a good interview, by one of our finest interviewers. It's all subjective, but I sensed some doubt with Jeroen Pauw, when Martijn and Peter detailed their theories. I feel that Pauw has been treading carefully, because he could sense that Martijn and the Froon family get a lot of peace of mind from their theory of events. But that he himself is not so sure about it all. He seems to find it also peculiar that none of the girls left a goodbye message or even a draft message. Or that there were so many wrong login attempts. The peculiar state in which the backpack was found wasn't discussed for instance, and neither the unnatural early state of decomposition in which Lisanne's foot and ball of skin were found, compared to the bones of Kris. As for Peter R. de Vries; he has done very good investigational research in the past. One case in which he shined for instance, is the trapping of Joran van der Sloot, in the Natalee Holloway case. But I have the feeling here, that he isn't just talking along with Martijn Froon to please or coddle him. But that Peter truly believes by now it was a tragic accident. I am underwhelmed personally by his argumentation and broad assumptions. But opinions will differ on this.

[@johnair1]

@@scarletr.7753 I dont know but the logic reasoning (with all respect) does not really make a lot of sense to me from those two guys in regards to the event especially the brother. He is completely off which is understandable siren its a traumatic experience nevertheless as the interviewer said in the end the kremers have a mother view and they are right. Its 100% clear others were involved let alone the backpack neatly place in mint condition with the phones being in plastic. We all know that the phones were switched on and off to make it look like they called for emergency but you can also do that without a pin i believe. Their belongings were taken away form there on april 1st and then the kidnapper were acting a certain way to support this "get lost claim". I hope a witness or someone comes forward and its revealed but as far as i know a few came forward so i guess 90% people can figure out.

[@jesuslavy6900]

I think they were picked up by the same taxi driver. It is very common in those countries. They even give you the card to contact them after that. He showed up again with other men. They were invited to swim. They girls felt intimidated and started calling the emergency line. They probably reject the guys and the rest you know.... My other theory. It is easy to get lost anywhere. I used to live in the countryside in Colombia and I got lost several times in a very small mountain, and there were not big trees in that area, mostly grass. I stopped to eat rasberries from a wild tree and then I forgot what direction I was going. I freak out after a while and I started running down the hill and I end up on a road. Thanks God the road took me to the place I was going . Everything around looks the same when you are up there. Another day, I was going with my older sister, we heard someone coming very loud and we hide. Then, we couldn't find the path again. So, I am looking at that mountain and the huge threes there, you can easily get lost, specially with so many trails. Also, if they tried to cross the river, and they were weak and enjured, they were carried by the current very easily.

[@ll3100]

So manny asumptions. Because they found the backpack with certain items. Doesnt mean, that they hadnt brought annything else. Like maybe Some sandwitches. For instance: If i were to go on that same hike with a friend, WHY would you bring just 1 water bottle and not 2 ??? So If i had to gamble , they had 2 water bottels with them. Just because there was only 1 empty bottle in the backpack, DOES NOT automatically mean, that is all they had.

[@ll3100]

Seriously they could have brought 5 water bottles. How would we know. But still Every single media outlet tells about How they only had 1 bottle of water.

[@Bella.216]

I agree with you on that, I also believe that people want to always over analyze everything, finding something that is not there. It's most likely that Kris died in the first 2 day's, Lisanne was alive much longer. I think it was Lisanne desperate trying to access Kris's pin, she was becoming delusional and weak. We know her foot was broken and she couldn't just try to go find help. I believe that they most likely had a small amount of water and food. My belief is that they clearly tried to go across that river with the cable bridge and were both hurt. I think Kris was hurt worse and her being in the water made her hair look very clean. I think her shorts were on a rock was probably wet and needing them to dry out. We seen there bra in back pack, they probably were wet and they took them off to dry. Body's decompose very fast in that environment, the other bones were most likely carried away by animals. Lisanne foot was enact because she died much later, Kris her bones were bleached because the sun. If it was a killer they would have found nothing. People want to believe the worst, it's clear that Kris was adventurous, I think she wanted to go a bit beyond the normal trail across the river. I wish people would stop trying to find something sinister, and let the poor family be at peace.

[@scarletr.7753]

There were at least 2 water bottles there, you are right. In one photo Kris is seen holding two in front of her (491). The source for this one water bottle is that only one was pictured with the bag, after it was found by local people. They sent this photo to the media. And the policeman who made an inventory of the bags content forgot to write down even that one water bottle.... That's how easy misinformation can start rolling unfortunately

[@bladerunner6]

wie weet hoe het nu echt is gegaan, ik luister met aandacht 10 jaaar later, serieus

[@iiLoveAutumn]

Sorry, but this is no other discussion than ppl do in their pub... I see no difference compared to KZbinrs who want to make an entertaining video about this case. Mister De Vrijes surely enjoyed the publicity.

[@scarletr.7753]

I understand that the relatives themselves really wánted this to be a case of an unfortunate accident or getting lost situation. You can bend the facts known in this case to left or to right, to some extent. Leave details out, to feel more confident about your scenario of choice. But for De vries to do the same thing? No I wasn't impressed either. He did some very good crime reporting and investigation in the past, that's why he became so well known in the Netherlands. But at some point he also seemed to want to be the expert always, in every case. Here he didn't even do the minimum of research himself. Didn't go to Panama, never been to Boquete (John van den Heuvel did, and I rate his info in this case much higher). De Vries also had a preexisting assumption that it had to be an accident, because 'what criminal allows them to keep using their phone'? He did not know however who handled those phones, as we til this day have zero evidence that it was them; strange fingerprints found on the devices weren't linked to anyone, there was no database used and the fingerpribnts of people helping in the searches were never documented either. A right shambles. There were no personal messages left behind on those phones; nothing written or spoken in Dutch that would for a fact prove that it were Kris and Lisanne who last used those phones. And yet de Vries was certain it was all an accident. Really a bit of an embarrassment, his performances on tv regarding this case.

[@iiLoveAutumn]

@@scarletr.7753 Ridiculous how he tries to dismiss the argument of them not trying to send a message, because "what's the point in doing so when they had no connection", but later says that it decreases the crime theory because "who would let them keep their phones so they could try to call ER?". He's just full of himself and contradicts himself. I think every single idiot over there knows that there is no cell phone reception there. Also; since we know that photos were staged through photoshop, it is even more likely that the person who did the 911 (112) calls was bright enough to know that it leads investigators to a wrong trace, simply because it's in the phone-call history.

[@patriciaensey8601]

TWO PEOPLE . NO BODIES . Not a thing to show how they died only assumption or possible.

[@meloneyparker]

They went to the pharmacy on April 2nd . Aren't there ccv images proving this? And witnesses saw them leave the language school on April 2. This theory about hiking at 3pm on April 1 and getting lost or hurt is BS.

[@scarletr.7753]

Hi, the cctv footage that was reported to exist of them, of a local supermarket, was overwritten before police could use it, according to the owner of the langaueg school... The pharmacy visit was on the morning of April 1st. But no footage of it, aparently.

[@moderngeaisha5113]

This story is so freaking cra I truly truly wish someone would finally tell us the truth one day 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@cubismic]

Vielen Dank, dass dieses Video wieder zu sehen ist ! Ich schreibe auf Deutsch, ich hoffe, das ist ok für dich , Scarlet !? Es gibt eine Sache, die ich sehr merkwürdig finde: Die Familien der Beiden haben inzwischen die Unfalltheorie akzeptiert,und wollen sich nicht mehr zu dem Geschehen äußern.....was mich aber sehr wundert , ist, dass anscheinend niemand von den Bekannten und Freunden der beiden Zweifel hegt, dass es doch kein Unfall war.....niemand schreibt irgendwo etwas, niemand äußert Zweifel, es sind ausschließlich Außenstehende , die den Fall " am Leben halten ", und die Gerechtigkeit und Klarheit suchen. Ist das nicht sehr komisch ???

[@romantico6355]

CUBI SIMIC Bin ganz deiner meinung da sind viele komische sachen siehe Kanal von Juan Perea y Monsuwé der rucksack den sie ordentlich gefunden haben dann das Foto von Kris Haaren nach so vielen Tagen wie frisch gewaschen ! Traurige Geschichte, ich war selber 5 mal in Südamerika man sollte im dschungel immer auf dem weg bleiben das ist klar aber selbst wenn sie ein Unfallhatten sie waren zu zweit! Aber eins hab ich gelernt in meiner zeit dort 99 % der leute sind super herzlich aber triff nicht den einen % liebe grüsse

[@cubismic]

@@romantico6355 Ja, dieser Fall ist so undurchschaubar und seltsam, wie kaum ein anderer.....aber deswegen wird auch so immens darüber berichtet, ich habe den Eindruck, dass es immer intensiver wird, was natürlich nur von Vorteil sein kann....bei Juan Perea y Monsuwe schaue ich auch beinahe täglich, es ist ja fast jeden Tag was Neues zu dem Fall bei ihm zu finden...morgen um 17:30 soll es einen Livestream mit ihm geben...ich war noch nie in Südamerika, und mich zieht dort auch absolut nichts hin, aber es ist bestimmt so, wie du sagst, und wie wahrscheinlich überall auf der Welt , die Mehrheit der Leute ist herzlich, und ein paar eben nicht........und Letzteren sind Kris & Lisanne wahrscheinlich leider begegnet...:-( LG !

[@romantico6355]

@Cubi smic das sagt mir meine intention leider auch sehr traurig. Hatte die Story vor Jahren mal gesehen und erst lezter Zeit beschäftigt mich der Fall wieder aber sejr intensiv was denkst du an was liegt das dass der Fall alle wieder so beschäftigt?

[@cubismic]

@@romantico6355 Es ist das Irrationale an diesem Fall, das so fasziniert und wohl fast jeden, der auf diesen Fall stößt, lange beschäftigt. Entweder, man hört kurz von diesem Fall, und vergisst ihn wieder, oder er lässt einen nicht mehr los. Es scheint absolut nichts logisch zusammen zu passen , und so entwickelt jeder sein ganz eigenes Szenario darüber, was wohl wirklich geschehen sein könnte. Die Fotos haben natürlich einen immensen Anteil am Wahnsinn um diesen Fall, man sieht zwei unschuldige , glückliche Mädchen, dann alptraumhafte Nachtfotos, und jeder fragt sich, was um alles in der Welt nach den Fotos auf dem Gipfel passiert sein könnte, wie es nur zu dieser Tragödie kommen konnte, die im Tod der beiden mündete.... :-(

[@jorgovonhottenrode3598]

Oft denkt man viel zu kompliziert obwohl die Lösung eigentlich simpel ist das ist wie mit den Verschwörungstheorien.....es gibt einiges was gegen ein Verbrechen spricht Organhandel würde ich z.B. definitiv ausschließen im Urwald europäische Mädels entführen um an deren Organe zu kommen ? Die müssen sofort gekühlt werden etc. alles viel zu umständlich. Dieser Tourguide hat damit auch nix zu tun tlw. wurde der falsch übersetzt und wer weiss wer die nachträgliche schlechte Bewertung im Internet ihm verpasst hat....der Bruder hat doch auch gesagt das er seine Schwester kennt und das sie schlecht zu Fuß ist....Lisanne hat Asthma und hatte angeblich gesundheitliche Probleme in der Zeit....Leichen verwesen bei dem Klima wirklich extrem schnell ich kenne das von Tieren nach wenigen Tagen ist nur das Skelett übrig und oft liegen die toten Tiere jeden Tag woanders weil andere Tiere da dran waren....ABER letztendlich wird man nie die Wahrheit erfahren den finden wird man nach den Jahren nix mehr und Zeugen gibts auch keine....die Familien haben das einzig richtige getan und damit abgeschlossen um in Frieden Weiterleben zu können....

[@bufordpusser423]

Poor guy knows foul play was involved he knows his sister and her freind where murdered but he also knows that the truth will never come out he knows the criminals are well protected in that corrupt country so he just accepts the lost in the jungle and died by the elemnts scenario.

[@scarletr.7753]

I have a feeling that Lisanne's family have found some resignation in the belief that it was all an accident. Also because the Dutch and Panamanian officials say so, and someone like Frank van der Goot and here Peter R. de Vries, not the least people.

[@arthursoesman]

Again! Peter R gate keeper of the dutch government and (foreign affairs) And martijn froon, sorry to say so but how naive a person can be!

[@scarletr.7753]

Yes. Very disappointed in Peter's performance in this case. He did good in the Natalee Holloway case but this has been an absolute blunder. He didn't even go to Panama, he knows far less than someone like John van den Heuvel for instance. Who... believes it was foul play. John over Peter any day

[@falsenotefest]

The girls didn't take photos for 2h30 between photo 508 and the first call to 112 - No photos either for 7 days. And no messages for the families. And Lisanne put the camera and the two phones in the bag to preserve them before passing.... Yes, an accident both in the same place. Love is without lies.

[@kristienderyckere7850]

Whay look no body on tis vidio on yotup whit the car witht 5 young men and the two girls 2014 look after tis men for kris and lisana so beatifull girls tinking

[@amaiyagrace]

People have said that one of Feliciano's men was seen wearing sunglasses identical to one of the girls' sunglasses but didn't have those kind before them. And then, after the girls died, one of these men were seen wearing pink Lisanne's bracelets. If it was one of Feliciano men, it was before they were murdered. But if it is Feliciano, if he is now wearing pink bracelets, those were Lisanne's proving murder.

[@kristienderyckere7850]

way sit the two girl in the car naer panama wiht 5 young men 2014 way look nobody this car whiht 5 men it is stranger thinking me

[@anneking8980]

Peter clearly didn´t want to get involved in this case. He did not really look in to it and left it with the assumption of it being an accident in the jungle. Why the brother believes that I don´t know, maybe he couldn´t cope with it any longer and therefore put it on an accident also. What I see from the pictures is that in the last picture of Kris by the river, you can tell by the look on her face something had changed. There was no immediate danger yet but you can see that look of; what´s going on.....

[@timespaice]

Yep that s the wasted look. They went after the mirador because they trusted ppl which bring them there, they probably argued them that they ll go back faster to boqueta this way. In this photo I belieave that kris is realizing that it s not the correct way and that those ppl are fooling them.

[@froggylegspeople]

Well, that was shocking. Listening to Peter R. de Vries having his mind made up.

[@scarletr.7753]

Shocked me too. In an earlier interview (short one by Een Vandaag) he at least kept some options open still, but this was a confusing media performance based on all sorts of unfounded assumptions. He never walked that Pianista Trail but talks about short cuts, never taking into account they wore shorts and the Pianista trail goes over a mountain. Short cuts lead you straight down slopes and are madness to even consider with one clear, non muddy that day trail right ahead of you going straight down. Also disappointed with the 'bromance' vibe these two gentlemen had, feeding off each others assumptions and reinforcing them, when Peter could have posed some more critical questions. For instance about the ball of skin, found in late August (no mentioning of it; it just gets completely brushed away in the media for some bizarre reason), or the lack of animal claw or teeth marks on the bones. He of all people should have highlighted that the properties of people of possible interest were not inspected and checked for traces. He just brushes over a lot I think, disappointing performance here. John van den Heuvel was much stronger when he covered the case.

[@seancidy6008]

Before van der Sloot killed a girl in Peru and showed himself for what he was, de Viers apparently found it plausible that Natalie Holloway had a seizure, and her body was merely disposed of illegally as van der Sloot was caught saying in a string operation de Viers orchestrated. So in the case of Kris and Lissane, de Viers's particular mindset would be predisposed to the idea that Kris and Lissan died more or less accidently but someone with them at the time or discovering the deaths soon after covered up what happened. De Viers secretly believing such a scenario would explain why he did not take the state of the remains and possession as proof of a double homicide,

[@froggylegspeople]

@@seancidy6008 Unfortunately Peter R de Vries was shot on 6 July 2021 and died 15 July. May his soul rest in peace…..

[@seancidy6008]

@@froggylegspeople A bit more paranoia and conspiracy theorizing and a little less of a common sense pose would have extended his life.

[@froggylegspeople]

@@seancidy6008 I’m not sure about that, his motto was: 'On bended knee is no way to be free' …..

[@davidmullen6011]

I think, playing devils advocate here, that you have to put this televised debate into its context - conducted in November 2014 and in the wake of the the announcement not long ago on June 19th that remains had been found. Whether the Froon's were aware of the further remains found in August I am not aware, but when you put these events into the same perspective as other news reports at the time just after the remains were discovered you see Guide F (who can be said to have intimate knowledge of both backpack and the finding of remains) is there in front of the (Dutch) Media steering the narrative to the Cable Bridge and an obvious disaster there... of which the camera contents support with all those night photo's. So Peter De Vries and Lisanne's Brother don't have anything other than that narrative to go by, and the obvious reality that the Cable Bridge is the center of the final disaster to befall the two, and it is all rather cut and dried based on that. With this narrative being held up by both media and Panama, with so _much_ suppressed at the time by the authorities, It is only much much later that any better overview can be undertaken and the overall evidence judged on a less immediate level than they had available to them at that time. I refuse to judge either of these two gents, I can disagree certainly, but I will respect their views. In the end the whole thing is a mystery, and to the Froon's it likely doesn't matter either way as their Lisanne is still gone, and perhaps better not to dwell on the how and why of it. I understand that view perfectly.

[@scarletr.7753]

Yeh but on the other hand, this is a very late interview and by late November all the bone remains were found, the ball of skin was found (that was late August already), everything we know now was already known back then. Including the night photos. They have the same info here as we have now, even the swimming photo was already known to the Dutch Prosecution in 2014. I feel the Froon family was just convinced early on that it was all a tragic accident and the officials from both countries fed into that story. Like they still do today. Basically everyone followed the provided narrative, with the exception of the Kremers family. And they were treated like troublemakers. Peter R de Vries and Martijn had all the puzzle pieces we have now, they could have made some critical footnotes with the ball of skin, to name something. But when you sincerely believe it was an accident, then all the little nagging details that do not fit in with your theory, are just cast aside as 'some of those things that will never be explained'. True, of course there is a lot to understand about settling for the official story. It certainly gives more peace of mind than imagining a kidnap scenario and at the end of the day their guess is good as mine because not one theory makes complete sense...

[@davidmullen6011]

@@scarletr.7753 I agree with you on the basis of us having been immersed in studying all of the (contradictory) evidence collected over the moths and years, but can appreciate that their understanding of events is based on the there & then, and some (at the time) convincing evidence of an accident at the cable bridge. I don't criticise or judge them therefore, even though Lisanne's Brother seems as trusting and innocent as she was. That is his character, and his right to view. ------------ The Kremers on the other hand are at the opposite extreme. Questioning and suspicious of what they are being presented with. And that is _their_ perogative, one I share naturally, as over time Hans Kremer's observations and suspicions at the time of a possible 'cave' being the place the night photographs were taken in seems to have a good deal of weight to it today. It does strike me that he had done the work with these photographs very early on and (I suspect) had quite likely deduced these were likely not taken by that cable bridge. If you accept that, then you do wonder whether his courting of the Guide in that 'Answers for Kris' recreation might have had ulterior motives to it, only he could answer that, but he does strike me as a _very_ astute and observant man, and if he ever does get to writing that book he admits to having in his head it would be revelationary I think... If you accepted that the night photo's are not by the cable bridge, and that that camp is elsewhere, unconnected, then you have to ask how and why it is the two end up dead and dismembered along that particular stretch of river. You can imagine one falling while trying to cross the bridge yes, but the other? The other would presumably try to get down there to help her friend, and.... what? Drag her to the side under the bridge? Where they eventually both die together and eventually get swept away by a river flash-flood? I am not convinced. And I do wonder whether Hans Kremers is.

[@scarletr.7753]

@@davidmullen6011 Good analysis. Each of the two families handled things the way that came naturally to their nature and views on things and we can all see for ourselves that they had pretty different approaches. Which is probably why they parted ways not long into the investigation. Some will feel more affinity with one families' approach, others with the other. People are just different. Just like some people get enormous strength, meaning and stability from their religion, while another simply cannot believe, no matter how hard they try. I think that if Hans Kremers was weary at that point of the guide, then it may be no coincidence that after the editing process, that sentence where the guide says something about Not Telling them About .... has been kept in the end video. He more or less caught something on tape that has been flagged literally dozens and dozens of times as suspicious by Spanish speaking people who viewed the video. And kept it in the end version. The main thing that sticks out to me, until this day, is how people can take it for normal fact that two tall western girls, desperate to be found no doubt, were overlooked for 6 whole weeks, but a rolled up ball of skin wás found. How their remains were found nearby Alto Romero, habitation, but nobody saw them and they never asked for help, supposedly. Why they would leave all their belongings in a backpack at said civilization, but could not be saved themselves. And you are correct I think that 2 adult people would never cross a cable bridge at the same time. Doing it by yourself is already daunting enough, if we are to believe the local guides and Betzaida Pitti.

[@davidmullen6011]

@@scarletr.7753 ...but nobody saw them and they never asked for help, supposedly." -------------- I like your points! I don't _want_ to keep bringing up that Guide, it seems discourteous to keep pulling him in, but the fact is *he* is the one who inserted himself into this disappearance at nearly every single step of the way, and in as much as anything I can't get away from that reality and the fact that out of all the places the two friends and their backpack could have been found it is... Alto Romero. Not just that, the backpack is handed to HIM, and he hands it to the Police, and he then leads to finding the remains and the 'accident' site, and as if all of that isn't incredible enough he is there in subsequent instances and after keeping central to the police investigation he is then keeping close to the families when they return to Panama in the following months and years. It is madness watching this. Indeed I noted with some interest in the 'Answers' for Kris' video there was a very brief instance where he darts into shot and has a camera in hand, fooling about! I thought it was at the meadow area as Hans Kremers discusses the girls progress and the photo's recovered on the camera, but I can't find it on your translated version. It was curious because the moment he came into shot with that camera, fooling about, the shot cuts immediately away... which is obviously deliberate from the Kremers. I can't find that very quick shot, but you do see him with it back on the summit with it in hand however. I do have to wonder - _Why_ would this Guide have a digital camera? Not for the views that's for sure, he sees them nearly every day. I do wonder if the Kremers found it all a little odd as well.... A celebrity. He enjoys that status clearly, but he also enjoys a considerable amount of power, wealth, and influence among his own towns-people. I can hazard a guess why that is, with his knowledge of 'secret' paths and from what the investigators of that documentary film last year note about the village's central point to certain travellers passing through on their way from A to B. And back again.

[@scarletr.7753]

@@davidmullen6011 Yeh it is very slippery terrain, this guide. I would not expect that he would be so brazenly out in the open, pushing for the camera if he truly were involved directly. But reporting on this case or on all the media coverage of this case, it is simply impossible to keep him out. If only because he shows up very time people arrive there with a camera, including Dutch news teams. He is interviewed in virtually every interview, he shows mostly everyone around (although some reporters also chose other local guides). When you bring up the moment it was discovered that the girls were missing, you come back to him; he discovered it first and he searched their room and he went to the local police; he was one of the first to go look for them before Sinaproc did. And so on. Doesn't make him a suspect though. Is this the moment you mean, when he is fidgeting with a camera in that tunnel of walls and moss just behind the summit? kzbin.info/www/bejne/mXfCanScp7CKgck (minute 22:54 in the video)

[@omara3537]

peter de vries rip has seen many crimes and missing people he has solved a lot off them as well. he knows what he is talking about he is leaving the options open and not staring blindly hen people make assumptions like you can't get lost there

[@sozzyhunter]

her brother seems not to be intelligent enough

[@SimpleLifeAlways81]

He is talking bad abt his sister cuz of what she wrote in her diary. He’s embarrassed.

[@specialoperationsservices3696]

Great videos Scarlet , god Bless You

[@bladerunner6]

today i looked back at the interview with pauw and witteman with the brother and uncle of Lisanne. The uncle of Lisanne is a former police officer/detective. He stated that in the area are 3000 or 4000 houses and retired people live there from America and so on. However when i see the photos of Kris and Lisanne on the Pianistra trail i could NOT spot ONE single house, how come

[@bladerunner6]

Scarlet jij bent nederlands en ik dus ook, wat is jouw mening na al deze tijd, vertel het hier

[@scarletr.7753]

Hi, ja ik schrijf nog altijd op mijn blog over deze zaak. (koudekaas cold case). We hebben niet alle informatie voor mijn gevoel, dus het blijft nog altijd een kwestie van interpretatie. Maar ik ben er van overtuigd dat Kris en Lisanne vermoord zijn. Er zijn allerlei theorieën vervolgens mogelijk. Maar voor mijn gevoel zijn ze gevolgd op dat Pianista pad en zijn ze voorbij de top overmeesterd en gekidnapt.

[@Jay-ly4jj]

@@scarletr.7753door wie?

[@scarletr.7753]

@@Jay-ly4jj ja dat is lastig te zeggen met enige zekerheid. Er is geen goed onderzoek naar gedaan toentertijd, dus dan is het lastig om iets zeker te weten vanaf de andere kant van de wereld. Maar ik geloof dat Jeremy Kryt op het juiste spoor zit. Dus de lokale bende.

[@computerjantje]

Scarlet, get a life. You just love it if this all would be a big coverup. a conspiracy. Or maybe you just like so many others just want viewers and then a conspiracy is always better. Peter R de Vries is of the best analyzers of exactly these kind of "out of the normal" situations. The fact that you doubt him and even during the translation already find the need to give your own counter opinion says enough.

[@scarletr.7753]

Hi Jantje, and what about John van den Heuvel then? He believes the total opposite in this case. What does that make him, in your valuable opinion? Peter R. de Vries was a great guy and did a lot for cold cases in the Netherlands. But in this one he missed the mark imo. You can disagree. I want viewers? For what, revenue? I haven't monetize anything and make not a single euro cent from all the work I did, writing my blog series, translating existing videos in English. What is your contribution to cases like these? Leaving sour comments behind?

[@marcusdolby1]

To the poster of this video: You are wrong. These girls didn’t die at the hands of some sinister person. They died from misadventure and somehow got trapped in the jungle.

[@sherrybrown310]

B.S.

[@anneking8980]

Peter clearly didn´t want to get involved in this case. He did not really look in to it and left it with the assumption of it being an accident in the jungle. Why the brother believes that I don´t know, maybe he couldn´t cope with it any longer and therefore put it on an accident also. What I see from the pictures is that in the last picture of Kris by the river, you can tell by the look on her face something had changed. There was no immediate danger yet but you can see that look of; what´s going on.....

[@scarletr.7753]

Agreed. I wonder if Peter's police background played a role here as well. I sense this thing about wanting to believe 'the authorities', because questioning them would instantly make one look like a 'conspiracy theorist' and everything that sticks to such a tag. Luckily over time, more and more people have gone out to investigate and with everything we know today (also through people like Jeremy Kryt) it are the people who staunchly believe the official (unproven) narrative who look a little bit silly. Imo.

[@gerbil61]

You cannot base an explanation (a theory) on your interpretation of one facial expression. My own interpretation here is that Kris, looking at Lisanne, is thinking "Should we go further, or turn back?" or "Are you limping?" Nothing more sinister than that. ....There are more options than the extremes of (1) they were naive and reckless and simply got lost or (2) they were murdered on Day 1 and the phone and camera activity was all faked.

[@ainsleystuart1234]

What an amazing brother !! God bless you

[@roberthawes9182]

What I find most amazing is that he has chosen to believe the fairy tale that they got lost and passed away in nature looking at the stars! I think he is deluding himself but draws comfort from this theory as it helps him to move on.

[@ainsleystuart1234]

@@roberthawes9182 agreed and I think he wants his parents to be at peace as well and not think of the awful things that happened to their daughter and sister. Bc obviously the government did nothing to help them with getting answers.

[@anneschmitz9813]

Hoi Scarlet ik volg dit al zolang als het speelt, ik ben er nog steeds niet uit. Ik heb tientallen video's en blogs gevolgd en na zoveel jaren weet ik net als iedereen nog steeds niet wat er echt gebeurd is. Ik waardeer het vele werk dat jij en ook Juan in deze zaak hebben gestoken. Ik neig na zoveel jaar naar een ongeluk/verdwalen, maar sluit ook niet uit dat er misdaad in het spel is. Er spelen natuurlijk nog veel vreemde dingen, Feliciano die tijdens de wandeling met Kris ouders zegt sst niets over zeggen tegen een andere man...de rugzak, de vele overlijdens van betrokkenen, tegenstrijdige verklaringen van ooggetuigen etc Aan de andere kant ben ik ondertussen overtuigd dat Azul de hond nooit met ze mee is gegaan, en ik denk ook niet dat het Kris en Lisanne zijn die aan het zwemmen zijn met de jongens. Ik hoop vooral voor de nabestaanden maar ook voor ons allemaal dat de waarheid ooit aan het licht komt.

[@scarletr.7753]

Hi Anne, bedankt! Ja ik deel je mening over Azul. Als de hond met ze mee was dan hadden we zeker één foto op hun camera gezien van de hond. Hij is op geen enkel moment vastgelegd op camera, terwijl de Answers for Kris video toont hoe dicht Azul bij de mensen bleef lopen die hem meenamen. Gold ook voor andere bloggers/vloggers/reizigers die de Pianista Trail liepen en Azul er troffen. De zwemfoto is in mijn optiek wel degelijk authentiek en toont Kris and Lisanne met twee lokale jongens die binnen een jaar allebei vermoord zijn (Valenzuela and Murgas). Heb je de recent uitgebrachte podcast serie van Jeremy Kryt al geluisterd? Echt heel erg interessant. Ik heb de afleveringen ook op mijn blog samengevat: koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-travel-channel-episode-on-kris-and.html

[@anneschmitz9813]

@@scarletr.7753 dank je wel ik ga luisteren, dus jij denkt wel dat het de meisjes zijn op de zwemfoto, ok ook daar ga ik mij verder in verdiepen, ik weet dat 1 vd jongens deze foto op zijn gsm had, vond hem alleen zo onduidelijk, maar ik houdt alle opties open, thnx en ik blijf volgen

[@scarletr.7753]

@@anneschmitz9813 Ja. Ik heb fotovergelijkingen gemaakt en ik geloof absoluut dat de vrouwen in de zwemfoto Kris and Lisanne zijn. De gezichtsdetails kloppen volledig en in Panama lopen niet duizenden vrouwen rond met rood haar en lichte huid. Wanneer die foto precies gemaakt is, dat is lastig in te schatten. Maar ik ben er van overtuigd dat ze Osman en Henry en hun clique ontmoet hebben en dat er in die schakel iets goed is misgegaan.. Fotovergelijking: 1.bp.blogspot.com/-hoN7h-jtIiE/YNy6QnsFOcI/AAAAAAAAHts/IMbPiviti0o-M0fRUhUe4bTkuSufJJAbwCLcBGAsYHQ/w640-h566/z%2Bcomparisons.jpg

[@anneschmitz9813]

@@scarletr.7753 Hallo Scarlet, wat een geweldige podcast was dat, en ook de foto vergelijking, vooral Lisanne's gezicht, je hebt mij overtuigd dat het idd de meisjes zijn.... De podcast, alles lijkt te kloppen, zelf heb ik wel gedacht dat ze met de jongens ergens heen waren gegaan, dat het leuk begon maar uiteindelijk uit de hand liep, de jongens waren op sex uit, hebben de meisjes verkracht en ik dacht eerst misschien hebben ze Kris en Lisanne daarna in een onherbergzaam gebied gedumpt waar ze amper bereik hadden en zonder eten en drinken snel zouden sterven. Maar eigenlijk na het luisteren vd podcast denk ik dat ze inderdaad zijn vermoord, Henry lijkt mij een psychopaat en tot alles in staat, Feliciano's vreemde gedrag kan dan ook verklaard worden, hij probeert zijn zoon te beschermen. Ik denk vaak aan de meisjes, zelf ben ik begin jaren 80 alleen door zuid Europa gereisd, en ook met een vriend van 17 liftend door Engeland... Ik ben goede mensen tegengekomen, en kan het nu, 40 jaar later navertellen. Bedankt Scarlet voor de verwijzing naar de blog en de fotovergelijking, ik heb er veel aan gehad.

[@scarletr.7753]

@@anneschmitz9813 Dank je Anne en goed te lezen dat je de podcast ook met zoveel interesse beluisterd hebt. Ik vond hun verhaal zeer overtuigend ook. Niet alles valt compleet op z'n plek, want ik vraag me dan toch af waarom de meiden niet gehoord zijn door anderen als ze écht naar dat huis van Cuervo gevoerd zijn: een huis in een buitenwijk, met buren. Ook is het onduidelijk waar die zwemfoto dan past in het verhaal; Jeremy en Mariana hebben het niet over die foto in hun podcast. Maar hij is el op de telefoon van de vermoorde Osman Valenzuela gevonden, voor zover ik weet. En de foto is gemaakt op een plek bij de rivier, relatief dichtbij Alto Boquete, waar Kris en Lisanne verbleven. Het kan gewoon geen toeval zijn. Jammer genoeg zie ik deze podcast geen doorbraak forceren bij het openbaar ministerie in NL of Panama. De zaak zit op slot. Gelukkig heb je zelf hele goede reiservaringen opgedaan (al waren er in de jaren '80 natuurlijk ook al seriemoordenaars en potloodventers en wat niet meer zij). Ik heb ook veel gereisd en ben ook echt wel eens in lastige situaties terechtgekomen toen ik de leeftijd van Kris en Lisanne had. Soms lopen dingen gewoon gruwelijk mis...

[@seancidy6008]

Her brother appears to take comfort in the belief that Lissane was an idiot, and as a consequence died slowly over several days! Peter 'R' de Viers was truly an idiot. Just goes to show that talking nonsense goes a long way to shortening your life. I think Willem Holleeder was behind de Viers's shooting, not the Moroccans in a drug trial as everyone thinks. Hollandeer's style is to be non-obvious and this trial would be the perfect camouflaged opportunity for him to take it out on de Viers for making a fortune on books and movie options about Holandeer, but not be blamed. Something very similar happened to Gérard Lebovici, who made money off of books about Jacques Mesrine.

[@scarletr.7753]

It is a shame because I did miss some more critical questions and assessments here in this interview. It is the easiest option, but we should not forget that there is no hard evidence for one OR the other. Now it seems like people believe that it was an accident by default, unless someone bring in the hard evidence that it was something else. But that's not how it works. Yeh could be. Holleeder could drink his blood, so to speak. But we cannot ignore that Peter R de Vries very recently had joined the Marengo trail by becoming an advisor of the crown witness. Who's brother and lawyer were already executed as well. It does seem to fit in more with that link, but who knows. Indeed, it could have been Holleeder or someone else who gave the order for this, making it look like a Taghi retribution.

[@seancidy6008]

@@scarletr.7753 I disagree, if you wake in the morning and there is snow on the ground, you have hard evidence it fell from the sky, although you have no direct way of knowing by people have told you they saw it falling.. If it was true that Lissane had written in her diary that F was creepy weirdo who groped Kris during their meeting of 31st of March, that would be far less convincing evidence of him having murdered them both the next day than him finding both boots 48 hours apart ever though they were widely separated, and in a far off place they had declined to go with him tp. There are people doing life in prison on far less objective evidence.

[@scarletr.7753]

@@seancidy6008 No, that was claimed initially to have been written by Lisanne in her diary, but if true then this was removed from the diary. Because we have seen and published the actual entries, and translated them in English, and in reality it then became clear that she never mentions this guide at all. Kris neither. Honestly, everything that makes this guide suspicious would not even classify as indirect evidence, in most courts. He could have simply been the good Semaritan, his defense lawyer would then say. 'Look, he cried on camera. He was simply trying to help'. He did grope some women, they testified this to Jeremy Kryt and another wrote a tripadvisor review that he touched her multiple times while they were alone in the jungle on a tour and when she told him not to, he joked (threatened?) that he would cut off her legs with his machete. Again, not evidence that he did so to Kris and Lisanne.

[@seancidy6008]

​@@scarletr.7753 The Nose would disagree with you, because the court held that Holandeer telling an untruth about not meeting the hitman R was powerful evidence that Holandeer was guilty. F told a deliberate falsehood about meeting Kris and Lissane. That and the circumstantial evidence was enough to arrest, charge and hold him while investigation proceeded. His interrogation would yield some results; they have their ways. For someone who was not even interviewed as a suspect, there is a massive amount of evidence against him. And other witnesses would have been found, Eileen could be very damning indeed if she testified. They just did not want him.

[@seancidy6008]

@@scarletr.7753 It was actually Peter R de Viers who got Holleeder to admit in a phone conversation from prison in 2011 that he was partners with Soerel and Hillis, The Nose was arrested in 2016 for trying have de Viers killed. The admission to de Viers of being a crime boss along with Sorel and Hillis was the main basis for the court accepting that he actually had commissioned multiple murders, and was not merely BSing. Hence de Viers played a very big part in getting Holleeder imprisoned for life in 2019. In the Moroccan drugs thing de Viers was merely a PR man for a witness. I am more and more inclining to the idea that it was Holleeder that ordered de Viers death. Revenge eaten cold.