In Defence of Joseph Sugarman | BoJack Horseman

[@ArianaAlexis]

If you like this video, you might also like this one I made exploring when exploitation is ok in film and television told through the lens of true crime and the Netflix Jeffery Dahmer show: kzbin.info/www/bejne/iJ7MdqecmqyWb9E Or this one looking at how Spirit Halloween takes advantage of the dying suburbs: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Znyck6CqiNGrabc kzbin.info/www/bejne/iHyymapug7-jjsk Or here is the In Defence of playlist if that's what you're into: kzbin.info/aero/PLqStSJhv1GeS_4n1Fw7I-mbgo1s_QDtFF

[@AndrewPatterson-xq4qk]

thank you for this, not just for defending him, but also for defending those from a different time. most people just try to do what they think is best, whether it is right or wrong. "love the sinner, not the sin", we are all human.

[@Lauren007E]

Now defend butterscotch lol, the architect of his own and everyone else's misery

[@rachellarris2305]

Part of me wanted to go, “who hasn’t watched BoJack Horseman 7x and counting.” But then I thought: what if she’s also got a necklace with the left-side of a family crest?

[@alenasenie6928]

I have to say, I never thought of Joseph as a cruel or uncaring man, at least not after I saw the episode where Beatrice remembers her childhood, for the time and society he was from he was fairly progressive, after Honey can't take care of Beatrice he steps up as a father and cares for her, with his money and the society he lives in he could have just hire someone to replace the mother role for Beatrice, but he covers it personally, while working, basically as a single father in the 40's, he speaks with his child about what happens to her in school, he comforts her, etc. We also saw that Beatrice found he was mostly right in her eyes at the end, if she had listen to him she wouldn't have ended up with Butterscotch, and, as you said, even then he supported his wife, giving his son in law a comfy job, that Butterscotch used to cheat on her repeatedly. I really liked your video, I will see more. I also liked how you described morality, is basically that, part of the evolutionary process, and as evolution, we all have this trait a little different, some waaaay different, but we, as a species, have some tendencies.

[@silveri7712]

I that a Molly Doll? I love it!

[@Just_some_dude_guy]

It’s worth to point out that although Joeseph hated butterscotch, he gave him a job and aided both of them financially for years, till the end of his life

[@rallo2964]

Who cares. He’s a feminicide

[@GravyBaby420]

I think the nail in the coffin for the way that Beatrice turned out was Honey telling her not to love anyone as much as she loved Crackerjack

[@TheLegendOfAnastasia]

I wish I could like this comment twice. Also love your username

[@syrusangi8743]

Tbf, this was her post-lobotomy. Safe to say she wasn't in the right mind

[@GravyBaby420]

@@syrusangi8743 Of course, I assumed that was implicitly understood

[@Valentinianist]

And under the whole ‘don’t love anyone because you’ll get hurt’ thing, I wonder how Beatrice felt when her mother’s life broke down because of the love she had for her son, instead of trying to get better for her daughter. Like Honey didn’t love Beatrice enough to want to recover

[@aikaameya3930]

Imo its the scene where Joseph burns Beatrices things and her doll. He seems to imply, or at least she inteprets it this way, that if she keeps being emotional she will end up lobotomised like Honey. Not only does this cause her to keep Bojack, which binded her to butterscotch who probably made things worse (not that shes any sort of saint in that marriage either but still) but it probably caused her to be more cold and harsh, like we see her before she meets butterscotch. However she doesnt actually seem averse to love. She seems to want to love butterscotch, and maybe did at some point, she seemed to gain some affection for Creamerman and she seemed to want to love Bojack, so what her mother said didnt have as much a permanent impact like we think. If he never burned her things and frighten her, I think she could have turned out differently if given the chance, but I think the fire really sealed the deal on her personality and fate. Tho I do think the honey scene was important, I do think bestrice had a chance if that was the only thing that happened to her

[@nathanseper8738]

Joseph Sugarman was a character that haunted me because he embodies the evils of that past that hide in our nostalgic imaginations.

[@dream6562]

There is no evils of the past just what was acceptable then and what is acceptable now, future generations will say the same about us and their future generations will say the same about them

[@magicman3163]

@@dream6562the future is going to be more like the dark ages basically more like Dune or starship troopers the only reason everything is Millenial and gay is because it’s stagnation and rot this century

[@matti.8465]

​@@magicman3163 Gay is a sexuality not a society thing

[@gggallin8279]

@@magicman3163how do you come to the conclusion that a type of sexuality play into the decay of society? What is slowly rotting away society is the rampant consumerism which replaces every kind of meaning by the illusion of fulfillment through gaining more and more material things. We‘re caught in a cycle of getting advertised some product that’s promised to enrich our life, accumulating money to buy said product, realizing that a product won’t bring us the fulfillment we thought it would and then search for the next quick high

[@hollowwoods7130]

If you think gay people gettijg more rep is "darkness" You've never actually suffered ​@magicman3163

[@Adelinawrites]

I just realized that Sugerman / Creamerman merger would likely result in some kind of ice-cream production, and Beatrice loved ice-cream D: I'm crying now

[@fistbowl1848]

WHY WOULD YOU TELL US THIS 😭😭😭😭😭

[@jacksont9455]

She never had it. But I’m sure if she had married Creamerman, she would have tried it

[@greensciencegeek]

Shit…

[@sketchyjulia]

Oh yea Joseph brought it up and was like “think of all the free ice cream you could, uh, serve to other people!”

[@fistbowl1848]

@@jacksont9455 didnt she have icecream after wwII ended?

[@sydm5237]

I think Joseph is a good example of how sometimes, our parents aren’t bad people. They’re just living by how they were raised and it’s difficult for them to understand the radical changes of the modern era. It’s not an excuse, of course. But Joseph was working with what he had, and still did his best given the circumstances.

[@AshIzDead]

yeah but at the same time following the example of their parents abuse and not breaking the cycle makes them a bad parent, you can understand why they act how they do without justifying their behaviour

[@jurel-enlatado1]

"As a modern American, i was never taught to handle a woman's emotions, and I shall not learn." He didn't do his best. He could've been better and chose not to.

[@sydm5237]

@@jurel-enlatado1 Very true. He outright admits here that he will not change for the betterment of his mourning family. I guess when I say he did his best given the circumstances, I was thinking about how he still had to be the decision-maker, given the time period, how he was raised, and him being the man of the house. They were in a time when Honey’s mourning and hysteria was just boiled down to Being A Woman Disease, but it still doesn’t excuse Joseph’s future actions and behaviors.

[@dalegaliniak607]

This is a fact that I've had to come to terms with since having kids of my own. It's was easy to attack my parents for any missteps they may have made along the way, assuming they should have known better, but after being put into the same role, I realize that parenthood is really really hard, and no matter how hard you try at it, you are going to make mistakes, whether because you didn't know better, or you were working under the assumption of what you were trying to do is right. This is especially true, considering my parents were a good fifteen years younger when they had me than I was when I had my first child. They tried their hardest, and that _is_ enough.

[@citriosis]

While I can mostly agree with the good people, bad parents line of thinking outside of this context, Joseph outright admitting that he won't make the effort to change kinda throws a wrench in that for me.

[@CosmicChaiLatte]

He unknowingly ruined 3 lives when he denied his wife the ability to grieve.

[@zestyt2059]

good way to put it

[@MaddysinLeigh]

I would say more than that.

[@lorddude123]

he had no way of knowning, the whole family were victims

[@sketchyjulia]

Not that her life was ruined but Hollyhock was definitely affected too

[@blakewoodward7305]

I would argue that he actually tried to provide a way for his wife to grieve. Because he thought he had to be a provider. He just was very very wrong in both his presumed role, and the method he chose.

[@Lffewgj]

He’s a product of his time, doesn’t excuse the bad he did but it explains it.

[@danielturczan2485]

He was also taking the best possible action for his family at any given moment.

[@purplevoncreep9920]

@@jurel-enlatado1 Every single person isn't a product of there time in the context they're using it for, " believing it does erases the fight" in one of the most privileged takes on the planet, like its actually astounding you think this is a take lmao

[@purplevoncreep9920]

@@jurel-enlatado1 A privileged take, being part of a minority group doesn't stop that, "Oh we know now x is bad so the fact they didn't is wrong" is such a simple minded blind take its laughable, no one is personally attacking you when they are saying he's a product of their time calm the fuck down

[@purplevoncreep9920]

@@jurel-enlatado1 nice victim blaming though im glad the entire aids epidemic was the fault of the victims for the lack of research, social understanding and support, because today in 2023 we have a better understanding of things

[@purplevoncreep9920]

@@jurel-enlatado1 I'm saying that you implying the lack of knowledge and social understanding is solely the fault of the person regardless of their time period is victim blaming to other situations. Ie: aids

[@_cherry_soda_]

Another thing to mention is that he never abandoned Honey. Often, patients like Rosemary Kennedy would be hidden away to spend the rest of their lives in nursing homes or asylums. But Joseph kept Honey home. He had the wealth to put her up somewhere, but he didn’t. This shows that he does care about Honey, he just can’t express himself well.

[@danielturczan2485]

Consider how Beatrice's choice to ditch her party and hook up with a random party crasher, all because she knows better, impacted her life. She would have been far happier and more fulfilled if she listened to dad's advice.

[@nexus5253]

The one time he was actually right. That’s gotta hurt.

[@tainamichelle2683]

​@@nexus5253 Beatrice even admitted that she should have married Corbin instead of Butterscotch. And she definitely knew that Corbin would've shown her kindness and would've done a better job at providing for the family.

[@FilmmakeroftheFuture]

Yeah, I took into account the fact that he offered his son-in-law a job as well. Especially because some people would simply disown their daughters for getting pregnant without marriage.

[@nexus5253]

Also consider that bojack visited the lake house as a child. Joseph likely still kept his distance as he saw bojack as the same reminder of a bad decision his parents constantly saw in him.

[@saml302]

I've never clicked on a video thinking so confidently "yea, no way they pull this off" and been so wrong

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

Please re-watch this episode, LISTEN to the dialogue, and tell me you think Joseph tried his best. From scene 1, he’s chastising his wife and “jokingly” threatening her with lobotomy for being a free-spirit. “That’s the half I’ll let you keep”

[@saml302]

@@BradsGonnaPlay watch her video again. also, maybe if you feel this passionately abt it maybe take it up w her.

[@frimi8593]

@@saml302"it's the jew's fault for peeving off hitler so bad" went completely unaddressed

[@emmyciyat9904]

​@@BradsGonnaPlaythat's foreshadowing, not a threat.

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

@@emmyciyat9904 It’s actually both… since he wasn’t joking AND he was the willful arbiter of the decision.

[@Familliarsurroundings]

I love that you brought up the fact that he was trying to help her by getting her lobotomized. He truly loves her, and it’s not secretly implied that he regrets the actions

[@AlexanderSwan-f2d]

Where’s that implication?

[@_Puppe]

he actively (allegedly) cheats on her with his secretary through implication he did not "love" her, even if he thought he did. he is mainly a symptom of being rich in a patriarchal capitalistic society that deemed any unstable women unworthy of help or anything for that matter (i haven't watched the video yet i hope this doesnt sound angry i just saw this comment and wanted to add to it)

[@alllittlethingzz]

@@_Puppesad thing was that cheating was the “norm” back in the 40s

[@Valentinianist]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@_Puppe and you may be aware that ‘unstable, mentally ill’ women were locked up in sanatoriums or even ‘disappeared’. Lobotomies in those times were truly believed to help people, not just women, to live a normal life and heal. If Joseph wanted Beatrice gone, she would’ve been sent away. He was trying to help her, mental healthcare just sucked back them.

[@ColorfulCryptid]

That was not Joseph that was Bojacks dad, Butterscotch. @@_Puppe

[@forestgrump4723]

Honestly I bet her dad woulda let the girl have a freezie pop. I feel like Joseph Sugarman tried to fight discomfort with humour. He had a saucy back and forth with his wife that was pretty cute. He talked about flirting with his receptionist but I don’t think he was serious because who openly talks about infidelity in front of their children? I think when he said “I was never taught, and I will not learn.” He was trying to make the situation lighter. He was trying to joke and raise his wife’s mood like she could go “haha my stupid husband”

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

His comedic dialogue and exaggerated “old-timey” vocal delivery was an intentional writing/directing choice to amplify the bigotry and out of touch attitude of American men at the time. He’s not self-aware- in fact, the humor is that, paradoxically, he KNOWS he’s not self-aware

[@nathancollins1715]

​@@BradsGonnaPlayExactly. Every character in Bojack "says the quiet part out loud" at some point for the sake of humor, but for some reason only Joseph gets shit for it. People need to realize that at its core, BH is a comedy, and sometimes characters say or do things that are wildly unrealistic just to make you, the audience, laugh.

[@BrightWulph]

@@nathancollins1715 Joseph only gets shit on for it because he's a " rich *white* American man" (white being debatable here as his coat colour is actually dung) so its seen as ok to attack Joeseph because of that *link* to being a rich white man. Where characters like Bojack get passes because they're perceived as not being *white* (Bojack being bay, Beatrice a palemno, Butterscotch dapple grey and Hollyhock and Crackerjack being chestnut).

[@pensandshakers]

@@BrightWulph Bojack isn't thought of as white? Ignoring that they're all bloody animals, he isn't thought of as white? I realize this sounds really dumb, but with his past as a sitcom star and his family lineage, I assumed he was supposed to be a mediocre white actor.

[@indrekkivirik472]

I think the "I wasn't taught, and I will not learn" line is a bit too on the nose to be taken as something a character like Joseph would literally say, my interpretation is that it's just the writers pointing out the low standards for emotional intelligence at the time, through Joseph's mouth.

[@ronaldbeason4566]

Is nobody else gonna mention the scene when Beatrice gives Bojack an old painting and speaks of her father as “a man who knew what marriage meant”? She didn’t have dementia at that point and showcases that Beatrice saw her father as a supporting figure in her life even though he did traumatize her in her childhood. She respects that part of her father but doesn’t always admit it

[@mullerpotgieter]

The man pulled her and Butterscotch out of the gutter. She idolized him

[@artemisarrow179]

Another aspect people forget is that Joseph and Honey would have grown up in the height of the Great Depression/Post WWI and being predisposed to aversion to financial risk

[@salfa_tina]

Joseph was actually a good father, considering the bare minimun that was expected from men on his time. He stepped up to take care of Beatrice, sent her to college (for the wrong reasons though), and supported her daughter's useless husband giving him a good job he didn't deserved. But the thing that sticks with me the most is that, from his era, it was expected that he remarried and started over after his son's death, tossing Beatrice aside for a new family. But we don't see any sings that he remarried or even dated. He could've put Honey on a psyche ward, but he kept her around the house despite not being able to do anything, and was somewhat close with Beatrice until she became an adult. I don't hate him for being sexist, because it was common on his era, we can't judge old time characters with current criteria.

[@antithoughtpolice7497]

Good God, you are thoughtful

[@md-vq8sp]

Also if the other horse from the ball was her mother he's basically looked after his wife for at least a decade to 15 years which some people would see as a wholesome act even now. especially depending on how severe the lobotmy was she would need everything done for her to surivie that long.

[@lockerbuddy2039]

I disagree immensely with this comment but I get your points. Hard to

[@ОлегПономаренко-н1я]

we can judge people from the past based on modern criteria. you don't need to live in 2024 to figure out that beating up a man with a whip while he cries and begs you to stop is evil. you being from the era when such stuff was ooookayish doesn't excuse you at all

[@Panda-gx2rs]

​@@ОлегПономаренко-н1яtrue people would justify raping children because in the "old times it was normal" and they actually do that it's disgusting

[@eatingyourhands5129]

He was just a dad, sorta just acted like a dad did back then. Not many dad's where great back then 😭

[@j.j.hector735]

At least he held Beatrice in his hands when she fell and took care of her illness, that’s way more than Butterscotch could’ve done to Bojack

[@blacksesamecandies]

@@j.j.hector735 Joseph showed Beatrice more love and care than she ever did for Bojack.

[@justjoshua5759]

Exactly. Ppl don’t understand that he wasn’t malicious just painfully ignorant and emotional stunted. Of which makes sense considering who he is and the time period. Butterscotch is honestly a worse person and father than he is since his stuff is malicious or selfish laziness

[@testosterone912]

wouldn’t say not great it’s just the way the time was for instance ppl literally had slaves cause it was so called natural even before america was discovered slaves were crucial for structures pyramids everything was bc of slaves and men and women were barley knowledgeable about mental illness so they had other alternatives not knowing they were doing something far worse than w ahat they had hoped not their fault just the time

[@francescominoguarino827]

I actually argue that he was a better father than Beatrice ever was (not a high bar, but still). Sure he was bad and mysoginistic, but it was mostly a product of his times, and in some ways he thought what he did would benefit his daughter (he still had his own self interests in mind, but still). Beatrice was cruel to Bojack just to be cruel, she genuanly hurt and damaged him fully knowing what she was doing

[@Neku628]

Honey's manic episode also put her sole surviving child, Beatrice at risk.

[@BradsGonnaPlay]

… and that justifies screaming at his wife, blaming her for her son’s death, getting physically abusive by throwing things around her, and then using her emotionally vulnerable and intoxicated state to convince her to do an irreversible procedure to her brain?

[@joshuawillingham6363]

If someone was shown to be an active threat to the life of my child, I would do whatever is necessary to protect them. He didn't exactly have a plethora of good options.

[@nathancollins1715]

​@@BradsGonnaPlayIf someone endangers the life of my child, you'd better believe I'm screaming and throwing things around them, I don't care who it is. If it's anyone other than my spouse, I'd get physical with THEM. His actions in that moment are perfectly understandable, especially right after losing his other child. Also when did he blame Honey for Crackerjack's death? That never happened.

[@roble8943]

​@BradsGonnaPlay Not the lobotomy and physical abuse, but the screaming and rage is reasonable. Like if your dad almost killed you and your mom starts chewing him out imagine the audacity of someone telling her "Hey, no need for yelling".

[@shivandragon1651]

​@BradsGonnaPlay that was acceptable back then though, it wasn't unordinary, it was very recently where we started getting more into how a relationship should work and how people should interact, not saying it good but it wasn't unusual for the time and he comes from a very different outlook on life one that we could never imagine, the war the depression ect. He had trauma and didn't know how to deal with it.

[@justsomeweirdo3078]

I'd like to add that when Beatrice gave Bojack that portrait she told him it belonged to his granpa "a man who understood what marriage meant" or something along those lines. We also see her tell Butterscotch in the middle of an argument "i should have married Corbin Creamerman" Which goes to show that she does believe her father wanted the best for her too.

[@mikehunt7810]

I agree regarding shouting at her. If someone drove a car drunk with a young child in it, we would call them negligent. In regards to the lobotomy, he was told by doctors it would help.

[@imdankarlin]

You did the damn thing, Ariana. Extremely well done.

[@Just_some_dude_guy]

Joeseph does remind me of my grandfather. When my father was young, one of his brothers died. My grandmother got in this really deep depressive state (she didn’t leave her room for years) and my grandfather spent all day on work. He did, practically, support her. He was there and did all she needed, but only physically

[@CoraCora-rj7vq]

He probably tried his best but wasn’t raised to talk to her properly and felt just as helpless

[@BrightWulph]

​@@CoraCora-rj7vqThat would have been the worst part, knowing that someone he loved was in pain but not knowing how to help them emotionally and just having to wait for them to "snap out of it."

[@AprilToy-z2l]

The fact that Joseph was told “boys don’t cry” as a child makes sense why he said “womanly emotion” Can’t wait for the Honey Sugarman video

[@garyz904]

As this series goes on, there will no bad person in Bojack Horseman eventually.

[@andrejnawoj8471]

Dare I say, maybe there aren't "bad people" in general, maybe there are just individuals making the best choices they can in the circumstances they find themselves, and sometimes those decisions end poorly for themselves, for others, and outcome trumps intention of course but ill-intention is rarely the sole reason for bad outcomes.

[@ЛевРизванюк]

"There's no such thing as bad guys and good guys! We're all just guys! Who do good stuff, sometimes. And bad stuff, sometimes. And all we can do is try to do less bad stuff and more good stuff. But you're never going to be good! Because you're not bad! So you need to stop using that as an excuse."

[@jacksont9455]

Paige Sinclair. Not because of her shady journalism tactics, that is understandable from her POV. But her voice. Objectively evil. Irredimible

[@kidokoala]

Bojack, himself?

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

You say this as though you're willing to look past Sarah Lynn's unfortunate circumstances and demise. How oblivious.

[@cmh8241]

I wouldn't call him a "good guy," but now I can see how he isn't a "villain."

[@laugebylovnielsen8777]

I agree with you, he is not a "good guy" he is just a guy. Just normal for his time.

[@RaptorJesus]

@@laugebylovnielsen8777 Arguably even a little better, given how he treated Honey before...well, y'know.

[@lavenderteaz7793]

This really clears up his character, also it leads me to think that he was just doing his best, in this context of defence. The lobotomy was one of the only “cures” known and he did it because honey asked, he tried to help and regretted it because he didn’t know what would happen when honey got one.

[@tottallyok]

This is what I love about shows like Bojack - they give every character motivation and context. Yes, in Beatrise’s memories, he appeared as a villain and he did traumatize her. But he was just a man doing what he thought made sense at the time. He made many mistakes but he never wanted to hurt his own family.

[@nexus5253]

What separates a show lien bojack from most shows that try to analyze or redeem their villains is that they make clear these people went through horrible things they didn’t deserve but that will never justify them being awful back because of it.

[@alexandriahunt6058]

I honestly never hated Joseph. Was he problematic? Yes. But his actions weren't fueled by hate or spite or anything like that. He just didn't know better. Plus, I'll be honest, if my spouse got shit-faced in a manic episode and nearly killed our youngest child, I would have flipped out too. I work in a school, and one of my coworkers just stood by, watching two kids fight (I'm talking hair-pulling and slapping and grabbing each other at the neck), then threw up her hands saying: "I'm not dealing with this," and walked away. I wanted to give her a piece of my mind over that level of negligence.

[@BrightWulph]

Oh yeah, I never hated Joeseph either. I understood he was a "man of his time" and his behaviour was being tainted through Beatrice's dementia and childhood trauma, ofc he'd look bad in comparison to a modern audience. It's why I like watching old sitcoms from the 60s or the 70s (and period peices), it's a fascinating glimpse into the past and to know that a lot has changed since is comforting.

[@RandallStephens397]

ngl This helped me recontextualize some shit from my childhood, and I think I understand my dad a little better now. I needed to hear this. Thank you!

[@ThiccFurryBoi34]

Oh care to tell us what you realized?

[@RandallStephens397]

@@ThiccFurryBoi34 I mean, it's more or less Ariana's whole thesis: Joseph Sugarman was the product of a conformist upbringing and he never had the benefit of being socialized to deal with painful emotions in himself or in other people, most tragically so in the people he loved the most.

[@mia_f]

Same!

[@brents6993]

Waiting for: In defence (sic) of Greg, the guy Mr Peanutbutter met at a gas station that one time.

[@ThatIcelandicDude]

Next up: In defense of Butterscotch Horseman.

[@radpea7500]

hard but doable

[@distort10n]

I wish we had seen more of his backstory, all we know is that his mother died when he was young and he would tell girls he was flirting with that they reminded him of her.

[@morganburt2565]

i feel like his action are way less explainable by universal morality. he’s kinda just a selfish ass

[@ThatIcelandicDude]

@@distort10n I suppose they propably would have explored him eventually if the show wasn't canceled prematurely.

[@GirtheAlienGoldfish]

The one good thing about him that I can say is that he was willing to step up and care for Beatrice after he got her pregnant.

[@Serryy]

I think its very weird how people watch Times Arrow and take away from it that Beatrice has her own childhood trauma and the cycle of abuse and ladida, but then go on and absolutely vilify Joseph and Butterscotch. If Times Arrow showed one of their stories instead of Beatrices, im pretty sure people would feel bad for them and completely ignore that Beatrice might have had a traumatic youth as well.

[@jayfireanimations]

As someone who's watched the old sugarman place more than any other episode in bh, i really like that analysis. Even though i felt really bad for Honey, she nearly killed their only child, who was around 6 at the time. You can understand his anger in that scene, because if your only child was nearly killed quickly after your first died, I don't think he'd be able to suppress his emotions, especially with how young she was. And the lobotomy thing is so real; it was normalised to do that to people struggling with mental issues, like nowadays how we just put them on drugs which really dulls people down. yeah sorry for the huge rant like comment but NO ONE i know irl has even heard of bh and won't watch it 😭😭

[@EeveelutionStorm]

Unfortunately the burning of items was also common back then after disease. I had a Kit Kittridge book from American Girl and during one of the short stories in this collection, Kit and her friends had Scarlet Fever and their nurse burned their belongings when they got well. Often times, items like books were baked to 'kill' disease because no one fully understood that just WASHING THINGS REGULARLY kept them clean.

[@chelscara]

While some drugs are definitely over prescribed, I’d like to vouch for the fact that when you do get on helpful meds, your life changes for the better! I am not a monotone one note zero because of my adhd/depression meds, I am just not ruled by my emotions and can change tasks in short notice without having a breakdown. So I think that’s a good indicator to know if you’ve been given the wrong prescription. if you feel dull and lifeless, talk to your psychiatrist about something else. If life just starts becoming easier to handle, it’s probably the right ones. 😅😂

[@slimebunny5700]

I wonder if we'll look back on the stuff we do currently like we do with the stuff in the past

[@multilefaiye7041]

HONEST TO GOD THIS WAS SUCH A GOOD DEFENSE. i think this is an interesting perspective to view the character of joseph through and much MUCH better reflects the nuanced nature of most of this show rather than simply saying "joseph was a villain who ruined his family." this gave me a lot to think about and was really well presented.

[@Prince_Of_Fish]

you did a good job here, touching on some good points. its always irritated me how, when viewing morality throughout history, modern people sit on a high horse and neglect the context and norms of the time. 100% there will be common beliefs and/or actions we maintain today that will be considered horrifying in 50 years.

[@mullerpotgieter]

God, can you believe someone owned slaves in an era where slavery was normal and they'd been told slavery was okay their whole lives? What jackasses /s

[@raineteeth]

I know this might be a nitpick considering the show treats it as a throwaway joke in the episode about the setting, but Joseph makes remarks about complimenting his secretary's tight sweaters and keeping her self-esteem afloat in the final argument, which upon first watch gave me the impression of him having an affair or at the very least that he was actively flirtatious with other women back at work. I might be looking at him in bad faith, but I still am a bit under the impression that even if he was a man who ultimately wanted to good by his family, he was also a selfish prick at times, prioritizing himself

[@yukarilolz]

Yo not nitpicky, its clear the writers put the line in for a reason, i think on a first viewing everyone assumes he's cheating, but after a while the line just felt so ridiculous that i almost don't think he was cheating. Cheating or not, i think the line is supposed to imply that for Joseph his family is not his priority, but the veiwer can decide what he is chosing over his family (could be cheating, or he just wants his work life to be good)

[@riverajustinmarks.]

We never saw him actually cheat on his wife even after she was lobotomized so I doubt he was actually cheating.

[@antithoughtpolice7497]

I think his biggest crime is not questioning the morality around him, but most people don't do that before, and after, their time frame. Most people are NOT these amazing free thinkers they think they are. Like all these pop punks that think they're unique, but how many others like that?

[@Ash-vu1et]

"i know it sounds horrible. DON'T YELL AT ME" got me 🤣

[@Berziefireheart]

Bro I never got angrier in a second than here and now. You're pure chaos

[@Berziefireheart]

Jesus you actually did it! Thanks for your video❤ Hob bout a defense of Silko from Arcane? Sounds impossible but you just did Joseph Sugarman so...

[@yummydragon8533]

​@arnaudvenditti9169 silco is a lot more defensible i think, especially in the parenting angle

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

Look, my issue with "not judging people in the past" is that harm is kinda universal. If I punched you in the face in the 1800's then did it in the 2000's, they BOTH feel like getting punched in the face. Slavery was ALWAYS slavery. Shit didn't magically hurt less just because it was more likely to kill ya and there was less people around to notice what happened to ya. When it came to his wife's "treatment", he was told by MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS that they knew how to fix it. And that shit STILL gets people hurt today! He lived in a time before Google, before most medical malpractice laws, AND a time before even television was invented! I don't excuse him being an adulterer, that was ALSO frown upon back then. I don't excuse him getting physical with his wife or ignoring pain, people still grieved and felt pain back then too. BUT, I will say the blame falls on the doctors who told him that they could "fix" his wife. He doesn't even like the outcome so I HIGHLY DOUBT he wanted it. Something tells me he kind of liked his wife the way she was BEFORE shit went down. That I will acknowledge. Because he's NOT a medical professional and therefore can't be expected to know better than them. His wife was CLEARLY going through something and wanted to be "better". He did what anyone woukd do and take her to a doctor, whose job IS to "fix" people. I'm still blaming him for being abusive tho. Because again, even back then shit like cheating on your spouse was seen as wrong. AS LONG as monogamous coupling has happened, it's been seen as a dick move. He's a product of his environment AND his own decisions. He chose to do things like cheat and he ALSO chose to try and get his wife treatment. He's not literally Hitler BUT feminism and other shit existed back then too. If you asked beaten housewives back then if they enjoyed being beaten, they would say no. And if you asked if it hurt, they would say yes. There was even a trope of "the nice gentleman who would never strike a lady" in many older stories. They knew people didn't like being treated like shit. They also knew slaves didn't like being slaves as well as other VERY obvious facts. The nuance here comes from a lack of access to education and proper medical care, NOT the idea that his abuse was somehow any less abusive back then OR more necessary. It wasn't and empathy has always been a thing. So has communication and respect, just people EVEN TODAY suck at those things and are not as above people of the past as they might think.

[@ColorfulCryptid]

He wasn't a great dad or person but he certanly wasn't as horrible and abusive as people think. There are no villians in Bojack Horseman, that's kinda one of the main points of the show that many people forget.

[@tlsma.6192]

nah bojack himself is a terrible person 💀

[@susiem.2068]

There are villains. It's just that often in this shows, the villains are the characters themselves.

[@cherrytonshawty9120]

They weren't exactly wrong about the scarlet fever thing either. I'm no medical expert, but if somebody with the disease came into contact with, well, damn near ANYTHING, it could put others at risk of catching the illness and dying because of the contagions left behind by the infected person. Which is why they burned things. Smart move on Joseph's part, actually.

[@RaylinKHD]

Thats the problem with looking into the past things were different. Hindsight is always 20/20 and people often refuse to acknowledge that

[@leopardsun]

This is the beauty of BoJack Horseman. Every single character in the show, from the seemingly one-dimensional evil Joseph Sugarman to the seemingly innocent and kind Mr. Peanutbutter, is a complex morally gray character with countless personality traits to analyze. I love this show.

[@moodylittleowl]

I am so happy for this video - because I never thought he was "the devil" of the show. He messed up but he was unprepared to deal with his own, his wive's and his daughter's emotions...but considering these times he did pretty ok-ish

[@hollyswoods]

I kinda love how he says "yes especially your baby"

[@focampo5672]

Waiting for that "in defence of Clay Puppington episode"

[@ghostdragon5735]

The wife kind of was the issue but I would like to see that one

[@YouHadMeAtHalo]

@@ghostdragon5735i don’t think you could defend either of them

[@jessilynallendilla5014]

there was that episode where his mother absolutely spoiled him rotten after like a dozen miscarriages then he pretended to have shot himself as a prank causing his mother to spiral and kill herself which caused his already distant father to blame him and become cold and abusive then later in life Bloberta turned him into an alcoholic

[@uniraffesaur]

I’m absolutely here for this video. I find Joseph a really fascinating character to analyze, because you’re right: the different social conventions of his time vs ours make a massive impact on what’s considered moral to each of us. And you can’t quite judge the people of the past based on the morals of the present.

[@raggedyanarchist]

Awesome take. I think about this a lot. I think WAY too much about this horse-cartoon, but I digress. They were able to take a character like Beatrice, set her up as absolutely vile (and she was), then make the audience sympathize with her deeply. I've often wondered if the same would have been done for Butterscotch or Joseph had the show gone on a few more seasons. Joseph is terrifying, but generational trauma was masterfully written into his character. You just never get to see it justified as explicitly as you do in Beatrice and Bojack's flashbacks.

[@quocanhnguyen7275]

You know it's a banger video when the video starts with the discussion on the nature of morality

[@KnucklesxReala911]

love this video, sometimes i have hard time in fandom spaces when a character appears that clearly has to be seen according to very specific circumstances, time eras, and even more if the media has sometimes some level of meta/surreal aspects, like how joseph says "i was never told to manage my emotions and i will never learn" we probably have to see that as more of a personal though being said out loud for the gag to work, but it also is meant to explain the current circumstance by saying he is a MODERN man, is kind of in the same line of honey telling baby beatrice that ice scream is a boy's snack and she should suck on a lemon with sugar

[@quocanhnguyen7275]

NO. FUCKING. WAY!! What's next? In defence of Thanos?

[@ArianaAlexis]

Funny enough, I already made that video early in my KZbin career. Its not up to my standards now but here you go! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aZ2ofWaYhdWgacksi=4aaxtfIrPeiONijB

[@quocanhnguyen7275]

@@ArianaAlexis Haha good video!

[@Romo9308]

I had never seen one of your videos and when I saw the title I thought it was impossible, actually pulled it off! Respect.

[@cheekyguza]

The whole Bojack family is the picture of ' Being a Product of time and surroundings ' they lived in, as was Sarah Lynn. Then we get the opposite with PC, Diane, Todd maybe even Mr. Peanutbutter ( when he's talking with Diane and has a realisation - I was always US in the relationship, now I'm learning how to be ME) And that's one of the reasons the show is 👌

[@junipermoss4537]

for me it's gotta be joseph's unapologetic and proud embracement of everything wrong with the culture of the time. he explains his actions in ways that make him look completely psychotic for not wanting to change. "I was never taught, and I will not learn" says everything about him. because it shows that he's aware of what's wrong with him, but he's an active agent in his own ignorance.

[@kweeksw]

I empathize with Joseph having been in a similar situation to Honey. I was given a medication as a child that was supposed to make me "all better." What it actually did was make me physically ill and emotionally depressed so i was just quiet and not causing a fuss. We found out later i was allergic. My mom didnt want that suffering for me, but forced me to take my meds because the doctor told her it was what was best for me and she trusted him. And while im traumatized from the situation, i cant blame my mother because she did the best she could with the information she had at the time. I just got lucky my situation was reversible, unlike honey.

[@jefferyjones8399]

BoJack Horseman is a great show in that it presents its characters and situations as complex. There's nothing black and white. The cartoon with animal people presents its characters with more realism and complexity than a lot of live action shows and movies.

[@benc.5558]

I think that this sort of analysis will always be constrained by the fact that we *only* see Joseph through Beatrice' perspective. There's a whole person in there, and we can see glimmers of who that person might be, but largely we see only the effects, not the causes, which limits our perception. There's something to be said for the fact that the only two emotions we ever see Joseph display are his usual benign geniality, and, occasionally, anger. We don't see his grief over losing Crackerjack, and we don't see his fear over almost losing his wife and daughter except through the lens of anger, and we don't see his grief over losing the woman his wife had been pre-lobotomy. Those aren't emotions that he displays to his daughter. He will have been taught from a young age: no one gives a shit how you are feeling. Your job is to man up and do what needs doing for your family. He will have been punished in a thousand little ways for displaying any real emotion other than anger, and rewarded for displaying his mask of calm, stoic geniality. You can't undo that kind of social programming overnight, or just by wanting to. Still, that only goes so far. Yes, he does display in many ways that he does care about his daughter and want what's best for her, and he does attempt, as far as he's capable, to step into the maternal role that Honey can no longer fulfill. But if he makes any real attempt to understand where Beatrice' seeming "ingratitude" surrounding the debutante ball is coming from, we don't see it. The video makes a lot of good points, but the essayist goes a little far in describing him as a "good guy." He has good intentions and an inadequate set of tools with which to express them, but he doesn't seemingly go out of his way to expand that toolset. End of the day, when he says "I was not taught, and I will not learn," we can recognize the tragedy of the former without letting him off the hook for the latter. The lobotomy wasn't his fault. He did nothing more than what we're all exhorted to do when it comes to climate change denial or COVID spread mitigation: listened to the experts. But when it came to handling his adult daughter, he did precious little as far as recognizing her as a subject matter expert in her own life and listening to her. He's callous, defensive, and dismissive, and no amount of "he's a product of his time!" can change that.

[@nexus5253]

I like how they leave it vague as to whether Joseph truly cared about his family and was a product of his time, a cruel sociopath who cared more about status than the people in his life, or likely both.

[@theretrodragonyope]

People excuse Honey's breakdown that almost killed their kid, because 'she lost her son,' like okay... that was his son too.

[@nykki21]

Glad the algorithm brought this up. I have seen the entirety of Bojack almost the same amount of times but never thought to have this take. Thank you!

[@gracecaldwell3502]

joseph as a character is one that has haunted me for years in a way that very few other characters have. when you're looking at generational trauma and are going back 50, 60, 70 years, so much of the "seed point" as it were for the trauma that affects you so far down the line is absolutely untangleable from the time it took place in. divorce wasn't okay in the 50s, so your grandparents hated each other, so your dad is bitter and resentful as an adult. women's emotions were shamed, so you learned to never be vulnerable, so you were never able to support your horse son. it's why time's arrow and the old sugarman place are my absolute favorite episodes, and that includes tvfhd. society and time are so meshed with who we are and who we turn out to be and joseph, god knows he's flawed, but he does an amazing job of depicting that very bittersweet fact.

[@Fruitjuiceandbananas]

Joseph isn’t a bad person, he just made bad mistakes.

[@Gengar227]

This video is fantastic, you make incredibly good points

[@sydneywest1623]

Gotta be honest 7 times is almost enough times I’m doing lap 8 now

[@HopefulDarkness]

As a Canadian who pretends to be American by spelling favourite as favorite or flavour as flavor, thank you for pointing this out!

[@lovexnxpeacexox]

This video has floated around my recommended for a while now and I couldn't bring myself to click on it. Wow, I'm glad I did. You're awesome. You intellectualized his character perfectly.

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

I have a hard time grasping the concept of humanizing the source of so much pain and trauma. It feels like I'm experiencing that pain all over again.

[@ozthebeeman]

Something I often hear people talk about incorrectly is that the whole weight problem Beatrice experiences, was due to her father's old school believes, but in reality he was more supportive of her weight, it was her mother that instilled these horrible norms onto her, which ofc led her to instill those onto hollyhock

[@AdaminTranzit]

both of them had tehri faults imo

[@greenghoul157]

Joseph reminds me of my grandfather that left my grandmother and 5 children after she wanted a job, she was a chronically depressed hoarder throughout her life and didn't take care of herself, the story of my great grandfather is so dark that I can't share it here

[@eles_quintero]

Ok but when you said "It takes more than a couple angry conversations to change someone's ways" I felt that

[@cameronspalding9792]

@1:36 In the UK: we also spell defence with a ‘c’ not an ‘s’.

[@YouHadMeAtHalo]

@georgelongley8078?

[@nevaehhamilton3493]

​@georgelongley8078 aren't you the wild card

[@Aaron-ln3ht]

this video was so incredibly insightful. i never would have thought of it, as someone who has watched bojack around 5 times. super well done.

[@crocoshark4097]

You want a REAL challenge? Defend Butterscotch Horseman

[@tiffanyblack505]

This is such a good take. Most people aren't inherently bad, they just do what they can with what they have at the time.

[@tabbie4twenty]

jellied beeAAANnnsss this made me cry in the best way. You've done the impossible and I appreciate you so much.

[@ethanfriedburgars2566]

Ugh what a perfect little video essay

[@jasperspearl2768]

The thing we must understand about Beatrice's memories, is that she's a unreliable narrator. The biggest example is of her former maid.

[@emmcenna619]

I love your analysis of the BoJack characters so much, I'd love to see you do videos about the characters from Morel Orel and Venture Brothers.

[@ericlygaming2167]

It’s very easy to hate the man without a second thought but once you do actually think about it, imagine being the only "sane" person in the family (not counting Bea since shes a child). After losing his kid, and basically having to take on both parental roles while also having to be the breadwinner. Personally dont know if i have it in me myself to keep going after all that.

[@Ammoroth9]

I'm so happy you made this vid. I love the Bojack series and I've probably seen it about 5 times but you gave me a lot of new nuance to Joseph.

[@TRyanLearnBikes]

It's always a pleasure to hear your perspective and witness your brilliant editing style .You are quite impressive, to say the least

[@lapetitefleur3482]

This has always been at the back of my head and I've only watched a total of 20 clips on KZbin reels lol

[@St-Vivec]

You slayed this topic omg. Beautifully done 👏

[@Legacy-sw7bv]

It's easy to judge someone based on what you know because when you fully understand something, it feels obvious. It's hard to judge someone based on what they know because you can never fully be in their mind.

[@wowhow8401]

At this rate you’ll somehow find a way to defend Walter White

[@cristiadu]

walter is better than joseph sugarman

[@andrewdickhout6289]

This guy hasn’t finished the video yet!

[@andrewdickhout6289]

@@cristiadu here's a guy who hasn't finished the video yet

[@nexus5253]

Can we also take a moment to acknowledge this is probably Matthew brodrick’s best voice acting since the lion king?

[@AestheticGamer]

I had this discussion with a couple friends who were watching BoJack for the first time and my second time watching it. Joseph does irreparable damage, but he's not malicious, the horrible things he does stem from the time period he's in and just general shittiness of older America, old medical beliefs, old social pressures, etc. It obviously doesn't lessen the impact it had on Beatrice, and we see that clearly in Time's Arrow especially, and it gets us the audience to very much understand where Beatrice is coming from to BoJack and makes her far more sympathetic than the series up to that point would make you think. But I think the writers were also aware this is a "systematic" problem, BoJack see's the worst in his mother, Beatrice see's the worst in her father. We only get to see her Joseph through Beatrice's eyes, similar to how we only saw Beatrice through BoJack's eyes before that episode. And I don't think the point of the writers was that Joseph was the evil of their family, it's more about a bigger theming in the show, including how the times affect people (BoJack himself being in the whirlwind of modern Hollywood a bit similar to how Joseph was in the firm strong beliefs of early America), and how toxic both of those spaces can be. Among many other things, of course.

[@coolchannelat]

I fucking love this channel, and I’ve already just now found it. I was just casually watching this video (I’m kinda in my Bojack Horseman obsession rn), and I decided to go to the channel. I went to the popular videos, and saw that this was the channel that made the Hey Ya video I watched like last year. I kept scrolling, and saw both a Midnight Gospel AND Clerks video (which are 2 of my biggest hyper fixations of all time)

[@HopefulDarkness]

Love this video because I was always anti Joseph Sugarman due to the biased lens of generational trauma, but then what you said resonated. The reason why people can turn out successful and happy or fail and become depressed can be affected by their upbringing for sure, but at the end of the day, they have the power to chose which aspects of their life they want to focus on and how that will affect them when they grow older…. It also resonates with me because my parents can be perceived as bad parents when I think of the trauma passed down from theirs onto us, but they’re in reality good parents who loved and cared for us in their own way and continue to try and be better even though they make mistakes in their approaches sometimes. Personally, just reminds me that the negatives were what I focused on instead of the positives. Thank you for helping ground myself.

[@LRCh_]

¡¡¡CHALLENGE!!! ..."In Defence of Butterscotch Horseman"

[@cecilereyna]

I get your point, but he's the true monster of the show. I don't hate Beatrice or Bojack despite of being jerks but Joseph? damn he's disgusting.

[@AdaminTranzit]

btw I dont hate any character really otehr then prolly buttersotch but josphen I believe has done waaaay less bad things then bojack or maybeee beatrice.

[@wisehead1830]

You really approached this with levity. I was pleasantly surprised.

[@matteodanelli8499]

You didn't defend his implied cheating on Honey but then again it was kinda a common thing

[@forestgrump4723]

I mean, he openly talks about flirting with his receptionist in front of his kids…. I’m sure it’s a joke. After all we don’t hear about Bojack having any aunts or uncles do we?

[@matteodanelli8499]

@@forestgrump4723 well that's true but he didn't knew about hollyhock existing , It could be a joke but also could be not a joke and maybe he Just didn't get her pregnant

[@ArianaAlexis]

I should have addressed it, but it was also a common thing back then for men to make sexist comments to women as just part of conversation under the impression that it’s polite. How many times have you heard “you should smile” or another comment on a woman’s appearance from older men. Again, it’s not right and extremely misogynistic but it’s again, a sign of the times.

[@matteodanelli8499]

@@ArianaAlexis yeah i figured It was because of something like this anyway really cool video!

[@mullerpotgieter]

@@forestgrump4723 Probably because what we would consider sexual harassment today was just friendly banter back then

[@Lomadren]

Saw the video title and was drawn in, justify this shipwreck of a horseman. Edit: Alright, you got my sub. I liked your breakdown, being a simple lens shift. Great video.

[@kenzieeautumnn]

me personally i've watched bojack horseman 13 times

[@itshel2677]

I forgot about the scene where Joseph expresses his regret about the lobotomy and I honestly think he believed it was the best thing to do until he saw what it did to Honey. Him yelling at his wife after the car crash wasn't the right way to handle the situation of course but I can't blame him for it either since he must have been pretty shocked at the moment. Marrying Beatrice off to some other rich guy is probably the hardest thing to defend but I can understand his thoughts behind it looking at the values people held at the time. About the sexism... yeah he's sexist and saying that almost everyone was at the time doesn't make it right. People usually try to do what they think is the right thing and saying that someone is "evil" or a bad person isn't entirely accurate. I'd rather say that people have wrong priorities or wildly different world view from myself. That doesn't excuse the way people act but I believe it's a better way to interact with other humans and way to come to some understanding.

[@cristiadu]

I gotta be honest and say this one in particular wasn't sold to me. I think the fact he never learned to deal with his emotions doesn't excuse the fact he could've done better and actively never did, even Beatrice with all the trauma she had did have a moments of reflection where she did do the right thing, he never did the right thing, from start until the end, he is like Butterscotch, just a selfish man with selfish desires.

[@blacksesamecandies]

To be fair,I think Joseph was a better man than Butterscotch or Bojack. Granted he wasn't the most progressive of people, but I don't think he did anything really horrible. As it was stated, Honey asked for the lobotomy and Joseph had no idea it would do *that* to her. She was still taken care of by him in spite of it. He just said some backwards things, was emotionally unavailable ect. Butterscotch cheated on his wife, was verbally abusive to her and his son. Was a drunk and encouraged his son to pick up the addiction. Bojack has a long laundry list of awful things, including attempted murder, wreckless behavior while under the influence, blackmail, verbal abuse and some very sus relationships.

[@justjoshua5759]

I think you’re forgetting that this man in the 1940s isn’t going to be in the best environment to develop emotionally and not understand that it necessary past keeping his family as “presentable” awful but you’re really underestimating the power of the time period and how everything he was doing was seen as relatively normal.

[@wombat4583]

@@blacksesamecandies Joseph was also cheating on his wife so he's not better than Butterscotch in that regard. Both even do so in the workplace.

[@ThiccFurryBoi34]

@@wombat4583I think that was a joke personally i mean he clearly loves his wife and didn’t really seem like a guy who cares about sex just the future of his family

[@ronan5642]

You don't have to forgive him, that's not the point. But you cannot tell me that everyone else wasn't the same. You're looking at this in a lense of the modern era. One of OP's points was a very real instinct in humans to conform.

[@mehlover]

Colored me suprised with this good defense. Also great reminder of bringing up "people aren't good people or bad people, but are just people. And they can do good or bad things." Plus a person has to want to and do better, which can feel thankless. Unfortunately Joseph was a product of his time, doesn’t excuse the harm he's done. But it's freakishly scary to look at the culture and society at the time and then learn to do and be better.