In defense of Catelyn Stark | Game of Thrones/ASOIAF

[@scarecrown7s]

If you look at it, Catlyn is the reason for Jamie's redemption. Her hope that he still had honor really gave him a chance to prove it. And he still holds to it.

[@incanusolorin2607]

I agree that she was the reason for his redemption, but solely because she introduced him to Brienne. She didn't trust him at all, and believed that Tyrion, not Jaime, would be the one to fulfill the agreement and exchange the hostages.

[@sinthoras1917]

He still is not yet redeemed

[@Langeng1]

@@sinthoras1917 pretty harsh, saving the inhabitans of kings landing and possibly unintentionally the world, in form of pushing bran from the tower connecting brand to the 3 eyed crow.

[@sinthoras1917]

@@Langeng1 Jaimie intended to murder a child, not to create the 3 eyed raven. To give Jaimie credit for Bran becoming a warg is morally so assassine and bankrupt, I honestly can't believe you said that

[@hypatiakovalevskayasklodow9195]

@@incanusolorin2607True she even says it when she releases him

[@Rhoxmaster316]

i turned my mother onto asoiaf, she never liked the show but absolutely devoured the books. This was many years ago but i remember she was halfway through A Feast for Crows when we were talking about Martin and i noticed that she was referring to Martin as a "she". When i corrected her she insisted GRRM was a woman. I said, "nope, he's a fat old man." she was in disbelief. She said, "i simply cannot believe that a man with no children created Catelyn Stark. What an incredible writer."

[@Bookborn]

She is meeee lmao I mean I obviously knew who Martin was but every once in a while I sit back and just literally cannot believe he can write all these experiences he’s never had. It blows my mind how much he understands people and situations.

[@OrangeHand]

Interviewer: "You write women so well, where does that come from?" GRRM: (sheepish) "Well... I've always considered women to be people."

[@rafaelblake7278]

Same with Sansa. I keep telling myself when i read her chapters: there's no way an old man like him could do a fantastic job at writing a 11 y.o girl in love with head full of sweet things and dreams? This is insane.. 🤣

[@j-rey-]

That's adorable 😂. I am imagining your mom: " 'A Game of Thrones,' by George R.R. Martin. Hmm... 'George'... she sounds hot."

[@rickard3137]

George could pull of a spectacular ”Your mom” joke here

[@iSamwise]

A person said you’re a horrible mother for liking Catelyn but their favorite character is Tywin?? That’s peak comedy. I swear the love for Tywin is all because of Charles Dance. He’s such a charming actor and brought a lot to the show. In the books there’s very little redeeming about it. Arguably one of the most evil characters in the series.

[@Bookborn]

I definitly think actors can influence how people feel about characters - I'm told the chemistry between Momoa and Clark is the reason that people "shipped" dany/drogo so hard, and the fact that the actor for Yigrett was so great made her just even more amazing on screen. So, it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of Tywin love comes from that. I've also heard that people prefer tywin to catelyn because tywin isn't "pretending to be a good person". I might not agree with that sentiment, but I Understand the idea of it - Tywin is clearly a villian, so liking him seems easier than someone who is trying to be good but is deeply flawed.

[@ninakrishnamurthy6674]

I think another reason why Tywin in the show seems more likable than Tywin in the books is that in the books, basically every scene where Tywin appears happens in a Tyrion chapter. We simply do not get to see Tywin at his best; we only see him at his worst, i.e. abusing Tyrion. Whereas in the show we get Arya as Tywin's cupbearer and the cool quasi-mentor role he takes on for her, which is one of the best things in GOT that's original to the show.

[@watcherofwatchers]

I don't think Tywin is an evil villain - he's just doing what most other characters are doing in this series - playing the game of thrones and looking out for the best interests of his house. He's in opposition to the Starks, so many people consider him a villain, but he isn't evil. Joffrey is Evil. The Boltons are Evil. Tywin is ruthless, but calculating and considered. He's not evil; there's a difference. This series is so good because there are very few purely evil characters. Instead we have characters that are in reasonable (within the world) opposition to each other, and they (mostly) make rational, self-interested decisions that creates conflict and drama that feels so real, because almost everyone involved has some sort of valid point from their perspective. The politicking is interesting and the core of this series. It wouldn't work if everyone but our favorites were just evil villains.

[@ashighashonor14]

@@watcherofwatchers Tywin committed the worst atrocity in peace time with murdering and drowning two entire houses, their servants and people. He unleashed Gregor and Armory Lorch on King's landing, sent Gregor to murder, rape and steal across the Riverlands, and was responsible for the Red Wedding but technically avoided the sin of breaking guest right by maintaining 'plausible' deniability and blaming the Freys. He's personally evil too! Made his father's mistress take a walk of atonement through Lannisport, gave poor Tysha to his guards to be assaulted. He threatens to kill Shae if Tyrion doesn't stop seeing her but he's a hypocrite because he clearly was the one who had the tunnel from the tower of the hand to Chataya's brothel built. Plus if you read the World of Ice and Fire its pretty clear he would have been behind rolling back protections for the smallfolk that Aegon V was trying for years to implement, during his time as hand. Definitively the most evil character in the series, aside from Euron! The Boltons and Joffrey WISH they were that evil.

[@nont18411]

@@watcherofwatchers Joffrey is evil because he was raised by Cersei, who was raised by Tywin. The only reason that makes Tywin “not evil” is that Charles Dance is such a charming actor.

[@nachofilament294]

I think people have a strong reaction to Catelyn Stark because a lot of her flaws are "too real" - her flaws are closest to what people would actually experience in the real world. Very few people have experience with serial killers, so Joker and Hannibal Lecter become the "fun" villains, the villains everyone loves to hate. A lot of people have experience with their mom or other maternal/authority figure making mistakes or having a moment of anger/malice that was misdirected towards them or they had bear the brunt of the consequences of. So Catelyn, and other characters like her, become the villains that people just hate.

[@Bookborn]

This is a great and super interesting point. We don't generally know killers or feel we'd fall to that flaw ourselves. Catelyn's flaws are very real. I actually sometimes wonder if people would be as magnanimous as they want Catelyn to be, tbh

[@nachofilament294]

@@Bookborn "I actually sometimes wonder if people would be as magnanimous as they want Catelyn to be, tbh" I think that may be part of it - some of the backlash could be coming from people who do the same thing, those who have a history of misdirecting anger and resentment towards someone who doesn't deserve it. That comment reminds me of all the times I've seen people who really do not get along with someone else who is similar to them; plus, I've noticed that the people who clash with others this way tend to clash with others who have the same negative qualities as they do and not very many of the same positive qualities (or negative qualities that can be spun in their own head as a positive). Now, this specific behavior I just described has to do specifically with how real people interact with other real people, but I would bet there's something similar going on with how real people interact with fictional characters.

[@incanusolorin2607]

@@nachofilament294 I think it's just misogyny 😅

[@bookswithike3256]

Perhaps, but I don't think Tywin lovers get to make this argument though. Sure he's exaggeratedly evil in other ways, but some of his greatest sins to the reader are abusing his children (all of them).

[@lexyruse603]

​@@incanusolorin2607 You know people are allowed to dislike a female character without it having anything to do with misogyny why? Every single time I see these in defense of videos and it's a female character there are people who blame misogyny. Or maybe the character simply just isn't for them

[@ComicRaptor8850]

“That doesn’t make it fair, and it doesn’t make it right, but it makes it understandable” If only more people understood this

[@MarieCurtis92]

When people want to hate, there's nothing that will stop them. They've already made up their minds. Empathy out the window.

[@hunacean]

Honey wake up! The much anticipated Bookborn Catelyn video finally dropped.

[@Teratoma..]

"The person who said I must be a bad mother for liking Catelyn told me their favorite character is Tywin." Hits so hard holy fuck

[@Bookborn]

They didn’t realize it but they gave me a little gift with a bow on top

[@nont18411]

More like their favorite character is Charles Dance, not Tywin

[@theanarchistcook]

Honestly that tracks so much. I'll bet a lot of these people are in the "hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create soft men" crowd.

[@pyramidion5911]

I know a bad mom that loves Catelyn Stark 😅 she's crazy as hell too

[@pyramidion5911]

​@@theanarchistcookand its always the whiniest weakest guys saying that

[@readbykyle3082]

I know how important this video was to you and you knocked it out of the park. Catelyn is an extremely nuanced and complex character and I'm glad she is one of your favorites.

[@Bookborn]

I like how the nicest thing you can muster yourself to say about catelyn is "i'm glad she's one of YOUR favorites"

[@readbykyle3082]

@Bookborn I'm so sorry did you miss where I said she is nuanced and complex? 😂😂😝

[@Kasamira]

The “Warning” at the beginning is more like Bonus! My greatest frustration in fandom is when multiple media are conflated (often to criticize characters unfairly through the guise of rounded critique) and this often happens with Cat. Her show character is introduced with entirely different wants/motivations than book!Cat. Book Catelyn is a political animal, an institutional figure that believed in the system- she’s a tragic figure because she lives long enough to see how inherently unjust the system she upholds is. Robb: I might have been able to trade the Kingslayer for Father, but . . ." Cat: ". . . but not for the girls?" Her voice was icy quiet. "Girls are not important enough, are they?" In death, as Lady Stoneheart, she’s transformed into something Cat never would have recognized. A revenant that seeks to pull down everything she valued in life. Only one thing remains unchanged- she wants her girls, she wants her children back. But would they even recognize what she’s become?

[@Bookborn]

Excellent analysis here

[@Kasamira]

@ thanks! ♥️

[@Bluerock121]

I am DYING for Arya to meet Stoneheart. I think it would be the perfect way for Arya to get off of her revenge kick, to see what it’s done to her mother, a literal revenge zombie

[@Okkotsu86275]

Regardless of whether you love, like, or hate her. Caitlyn is a very well written female character.

[@Bookborn]

And the best point of all is that you can say that about every single character in ASOIAF. Doesn't matter if you hate them or love them, they are all incredibly nuanced people who feel real

[@Okkotsu86275]

@Bookborn Very true indeed, that is what makes the ASOIAF franchise so good. Damn near all the characters, both male and female, the good, the bad, and in between are so well written with a good amount of nuance.

[@seewolf3333]

Awesome! I'm not even a Catelyn fan and I was SO looking forward to this video. Gotta say, your ASoIaF journey really rekindled my love for the franchise and ramped up my desire to do a complete reread myself. Thank you so much!

[@Bookborn]

These comments mean a lot to me. Thank you!!

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Sidenote, it is WILD to me that people point to the kidnapping of Tyrion as the cause of the war. To my mind, it was always Petyr that truly started the war. Like, it's not just because he was behind Jon Arryn's death, it's specifically because he had Lysa SEND that letter. He knows Cat, he knows how much animosity Ned already had for the Lannisters and how much he loved Robert. Why else send that letter if not to provoke them into some kind of action? It was going to happen, kidnapping or no.

[@Bookborn]

YES, I didn't even fully explore this topic but like clearly it's Petyr's fault lol. Like I think it's more that a) we get that reveal later after people's perceptions of Cat are set and b) Cat's actions were more visible so it feels easier to blame.

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

@Bookborn TRUE, we don't fully understand how much Petyr influenced the entire story until well after the red wedding - this makes total sense, especially if you're the type of fan that isn't into frequent re-reads and analysis (I lost count of my re-reads at this point I'll be honest, it's likely over 100 now) the letter and the catspaw are so far from your mind by Feast.

[@halokiller031]

Of course it was going to happend, just not so soon. She took the first open hostile action and thus started the war.

[@tongtong4077]

Also, what really kicks off the war, more than anything else, is Littlefinger betraying Ned and having him imprisoned then executed (well, for the latter part thats on Joffrey). After that, Robb calls his bannermen and the Baratheons start levying their armies, and the Lannister-Tully conflict essentially spreads to all Westeros. Sure, Catelyn made a blunder by kidnapping Tyrion, but that would probably not have changed much to the aftermath of Robert's death.

[@LaneGamesYT]

Not to mention that even without Littlefinger doing what he did, there were a million ways war still could have broken out anyway. The Jamie-Cercei incest wouldn't be a secret forever, Cersei would probably still murder Robert at some point (with his brothers inevitably butting heads because of it), Oberyn would come for revenge at some point, Danaerys coming back to Westeros at some point would be met with resistance, as well as Young Griff. Euron, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey would all likely make bids of power in some form. Turmoil and probably war was coming from a lot of places, and could have broken the dam from any conflict. To narrow it down to Cat specifically is crazy, and feels really targeted by more misogynistically mindsetted people. Cat is no more to blame than most others, and a LOT less than quite a few.

[@EasytheGoon]

my favorite moment in the show and the books, is when Catelyn arrests Tyrion Lannister. The power of a name and how she wielded that power was brilliant.

[@xCrownos]

Also her worst decision in the series from a strategy standpoint

[@Bookborn]

It also plays into a theme I love in ASOIAF: loyalty and how it plays out, especially in the north.

[@fly8668]

@@xCrownos very reductionist pov

[@micaelagonzalez71]

Goosebumps! Terrific scene in both book and show. (putting aside the terrible outcome XD)

[@gokbay3057]

@@fly8668 I dunno about that. Look, I understand why she did it and it doesn't make her evil or the cause of the war but it was still one of her worst decisions. Did it have any positive effect? At all? Tyrion gained Bronn and the Mountain Clansmen out of the whole event while Riverlands suffered from the Lannister attack (which they would when the war came but they might not have been caught so unaware if the Tyrion kidnapping/arrest had not happened. Or the Northern army might have been ready earlier/already in the South when Westerlanders attacked).

[@kendershot]

Lady Stoneheart is a great example of how Martin can give you an amazing moment of what you thought you wanted, and then pull the rug out from under you. You're sad about the Red Wedding? Cat is back with a vengeance! (but Berric has to die and she is now a revenge-monster). You want some dead Freys? Great! (but it's at the expense of the BWB). Cat-Breianne reunion? Yes! (but she's going to make her to kill Jamie).

[@Bookborn]

EXACTLY! Perfectly stated

[@sammcclure1553]

An author having a character experience a distortion between what they think they want/need and what they actually want/need and having that be a part of their character arc/emotional maturity journey is super common. I've never experienced another author that could make me question what I, as a reader, wanted for a character. Even the characters we come to despise find a way of having us root for their redemption (Jamie and Theon, among others) and the characters who we'd consider good commit evil, heinous acts (It's often glossed over but Tyrion is an objectively HORRIBLE person in Dance). I've never had an author make me question my own morality and its' source more than GRRM, and I don't know of any higher praise to give an author. I'm not that hard to entertain, if you can make me stop in the middle of a chapter to question which of my life experiences are making want something good to happen to a character that's done objectivley terrible things, you've accomplished something.

[@gokbay3057]

She'll probably be blind in her vengeance against the Freys as well (there were good Freys totally uninvolved with the Red Wedding. Indeed a few were even close with Robb and specifically not in the wedding). We will probably see her kill innocent as well as the guilty.

[@anonymousname5860]

This is probably one of my favorite ASoIAF videos you’ve made. I actually have agreed that much of what Catelyn does is completely in character and that she is more clever than some people give her credit for. Edit: it is buck wild anyone is making real life claims about your parenting style based off characters in a fantasy book, for entertainment.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah, I tried to make it clear that I don't think all catelyn haters think like that, but I still can't get over that someone had the gall to comment that 😂

[@freazeezy]

If Catelyn was sitting peacefully eating crackers I swear to God people would criticize how she was eating instead of being perfect. People shut their brains off over Catelyn. Great point about her Wisdom as well. She always backs up her arguments with historical evidence when the guys around her are making the same old mistakes. And she absolutely would have prevented Ned's death if she was there! Never thought about it that way but you're so right!

[@Bookborn]

This made me lol

[@pyramidion5911]

All she had to do was stay in winterfell

[@ranica47]

All she had to do was return to Winterfell and raise the banners like Ned asked her, line Moat Cailin with archers like Ned asked her but instead she captured Tyrion based on no evidence and started the war of the five kings. She always believes that she's knows better. Never liked her chapters and the show totally changed things to make her more likeable. She was the one who wanted Ned to go to KL and take the job as the Hand not the other way round. She was definitely more ambitious than Ned which influenced a lot of her decision making. She also swallowed Littlefinger and Lysa's lie that the Lannisters had killed Jon Arryn.

[@ranica47]

How would she have prevented Ned's death?! That's wishful thinking.

[@ranica47]

I don't attack her based on her gender, neither should she be equally defended because of her gender. Nobody expects her to be perfect like you claim but she makes a lot of bad decisions.

[@user-yb2if8jz2o]

What I love about both Ned and Catelyn is that their influence on the story far exceeds their respective endings in the show. Stark and Tully are names that command far more admiration and respect than Bolton and Frey could ever hope to, and beneath the realpolitik of the North and the Riverlands it certainly seems a lot of book characters feel the same.

[@Bookborn]

YES YES YES! I have notes about this for a loyalty video I want to do someday.

[@nont18411]

Meanwhile, the North in the show has no issue serving under the Boltons. No grand northern conspiracy what so ever. In fact, they hate House Stark for “leading them to die” that they refused to help Jon and Sansa but are thankful of House Bolton that killed and oppressed them in the first place that they gave Rickon to Ramsay as a bargaining ship against the Starks. The North in the show is even more traitorous and spineless than the Lannisters in the South. In the books, the North remembers. In the show, the North kinda forgot.

[@V_i_vi_an]

@@nont18411 Some for the riverlanders and their hatred for the freys. The freys and boltons downfall will be sweet.

[@bookswithike3256]

Don't forget they also command more admiration and respect than Lannister. After Tywin dies, the Lannister powerbase completely collapses because no one was ever truly loyal to Tywin, they just feared him. Whereas they view his children as tools to manipulate.

[@V_i_vi_an]

Amazing video. Cat has always been in my top 5 of favorite ASoIaF characters and it's hard to see people calling me names for just liking the character or trying to defend her. People hate Cat more than monsters like Tywin and I've always thought it's pure misogyny.

[@BobPantsSpongeSquare97]

In the past few weeks I decided to reread the books after having only read them once starting in 2016. I was more taken back and I guess more understanding of Catelyn, because my mom is currently dealing with her own heartbreak which Iv been supporting her as she goes through with it. And a lot of what Catelyn says and goes through in her grief feels more relatable with how she is heartbroken over Ned but wants the fighting to stop in order to win back her daughters. Also in her POV when she is frustrated about having to look strong in front of the northerners so not to impede on Robb and especially when she laments about always being dutiful but it felt like it came to nothing

[@Bookborn]

I do think my experience of ASOIAF is very colored by reading it in my mid 30s. I can imagine having read it much younger would vastly change my opinions on characters… it’s the kind of series I’m sure as I reread at different ages I’ll come to understand different perspectives more

[@TheNerdyNarrative]

I know you haven't seen the show - but I have and I'm STILL super salty that they didn't full explore her plotline from the books. I was *so* excited to see how they depicted her after the Red Wedding and ..... they didn't. They just let her die. WTH Fellow Catelyn Stan here :D

[@Bookborn]

It shocks me they didn’t do lady stoneheart. Just for the shock factor ALONE it would seem like they’d want to…

[@TES-541]

To be fair, how would they? They needed to do even less of books 4 and 5 than they did. They only had limited amount of time, and they could have collaborated with George on perhaps how to limit some of the already mediocre Dorne and Ironborn plots in the show. In the books they're fantastic, but when they finished season 4, knowing they'd only do four more seasons, they should have immediately been trying to narrow the story to a satisfying and properly paced conclusion than expanding. Books are way different than TV. Thank God they didn't do even more of those plots (Quentyn, Arianne, etc.) They would have been disasters on screen.

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Iirc, didn't the actress express relief and agreement in that arc being cut? Not that it's any excuse and I wanted to see it so badly, but I remember reading that the red wedding was so painful for her to act that she was sort of relieved to not come back. A shame really, she was brilliant.

[@mymaynee5963]

@@Bookborn They said they cut her because they wanted Jons ressurection to mean more

[@bookswithike3256]

@@TES-541 Ending Thrones at season 8 was not a premeditated plan. HBO and George both pushed them to do more and they declined. So no, it has nothing to do with time constraints.

[@Flammewar]

This is the second longest I've waited for a specific ASOIAF content right after Winds and it's finally here :D

[@Bookborn]

Let's hope this is a good omen for Winds then 🤪

[@mrshook145]

you can't change my opinion because I ALREADY AGREE "She wanted to get up and go to him, but Bran was still holding her hand and she could not move" is such a powerful line, it really expresses the frustration of not being able to be there for all her children at once

[@CostaKangaroo]

I also really loved reading Catelyn's POV, it was always such an interesting perspective that you don't get to see often in fantasy. Thank you for this video, really well-structured points!

[@timholland1764]

#teamcatforever. You are so so so right about so much. Off the bat, if someone calls you a bad mom and Tywin is their favorite character, they are a sociopath. He is a mass murderer who sucks at his job. Rule by fear is literally why his entire house has crumbles by the end of ADWD. He is an interesting study of this, but objectively a BAD person and A bad leader. Other thoughts: 1.) The thing that separates ASOIAF from other series is nuances of characters. From Cat to Sansa to Jamie to Theon to Arya, they all make good and bed decisions. They feel sooo real. That's what makes them great. 2.) When i first read this series, i was a relatively new dad - i had a 2 year old and 4 year old at that time. I immediately fell in love with Cat, she reminded me of so many good qualities of my wife - smart, fiercely defends her kids, loyal, caring, but not perfect. Who is. 3.) You are being nice and not saying it but the reason that fans hate Cat (and Sansa) but not Jamie, Tyrion, Theon and especially effin' Tywin comes down to misogyny...sorry, it's true. 4.) Totally agree about Stoneheart, she is a spirit who personifies literally the worst moment in Cat's life so is bent on revenge. Keep up the amazing work.

[@Bookborn]

Love and agree with all your points! People are certainly more willing to forgive flaws in men they would never forgive in women, and it always reminds me of a quote from a great non fiction book “Invisible Women”: it essentially said stories about men are seen as universal while stories about women are seen as niche, despite the fact we make up 50% of the population.

[@pyramidion5911]

After several rereads and thinking about the series as a whole, I am starting to suspect that the Catspaw played a role in the making of Lady Stoneheart. Its so much to get into but there is a lot going on in this series under the surface and you have to start tumbling down the rabbit hole to understand.

[@18Themega]

I feel like people always forget what happened after Catelyn let Jaime go. Rickard took men and killed two kids. Rickard loudly wanted vengeance for his sons. Catelyn probably acted knowing that if Jaime died her daughters would be killed and any chance of a truce would be destroyed.

[@boromirstark9]

Thank you for finally hitting on a keyword that I notice ppl don't mention enough in ASOIAF and that's TRAGEDY. If you know anything about human conflict you'll know that more often than not, the 'blame game' can become very futile, if not outright destructive. Martin's characters are often hailed but I also think he does a very compelling job at constructing complicated webs of tragedy for them. Personally, it's the plot line which Catelyn herself has both created and been subject to that I find most unique and interesting. Her chapters and POV during the war are some of my favorite. Even on par with Davos. But yeah, the point of ASOIAF is not to judge characters or even defend them, but rather to try empathize with their situations, for good or ill. It's intentionally sad at times. Well-made and funny video! Keep up the fun work!

[@Bookborn]

Yeah, I think people often mistake the tragedy for the grim darkness. I always maintain it's not as dark/hopeless as a series as people credit it to be, it's just that tragedy is around every corner. Idk, it's a subtle difference haha

[@boromirstark9]

@Bookborn You're totally right and it's a difference I myself have never really thought deeply on. Properly interpreting the darkness of a book, so to speak, could mean the difference between Shakespeare's timeless tragedies versus Abercrombie's bleak and sterile nihilism (I actually love Joe Abercrombie very much but idk I think you catch my drift with my exaggerated example lol). I'm not as well-articulated as you are but I will concede you've gradually convinced me the series is less 'grim' than I initially believed.

[@mil_enrama]

I wonder if people have a more visceral reaction to Catelyn because her misdeeds are more relatable. The other characters' misdeeds are so great that no reader can compare them to personal experience. But many people have had bad relationships with their mothers. And many people on the internet are young adults who are probably going through that phase of defiance to their mothers. They see her making decisions that end up backfiring, or giving Rob advice, and they think of their own "overbearing" mothers.

[@Bookborn]

I actually think this is a really interesting point and probably a factor for many. Easier to weirdly forgive big, over the top flaws (like pushing a kid out a window) than the flaws that we actually see and experience

[@gokbay3057]

Kind of an Umbridge effect I guess (I am not a HP fan, but that's the easiest example that comes to mind).

[@stoneheart8231]

Is that really true though? I think the average person is just as likely to suffer sexual assault or rape, yet male characters who commit these vile acts aren't hated anywhere near as much.

[@rhinoceros2469]

The main thing that frustrates me about Catelyn haters berwting Catelyn for kidnapping Tyrion is that in the inn Catelyn was trying to ignore Tyrion! She was completely ready to ignore him and walk out. Not only that but on the way to the Vale when Tyrion had the perfect chance to explain to her that he had no involvement with killing Jon Arryn and that he even made the saddle for Bran, he started making sex jokes about Catelyn and Petyr and alienated her even more!

[@Bookborn]

Yeah that's the thing that really gets me. She didn't PLAN to do it. It wasn't premeditated. It was a panic move.

[@acg3934]

Bro, if someone kidnaps you, you can make all the sex jokes about them that you want imo

[@ignaciocamps]

Well, reallistically Tyrion couldn't have done much better in the Vale, since Catelyn was dead set on at least getting him to the Eyrie to hear what his accuser and her sister Lysa would say (not knowing how crazy she's become), and once there her word would be final since she's the regent. And the jokes did win him Bronn, which he desperetaly needed.

[@j-rey-]

She still didn't have to kidnap him. Tyrion was surprised to see her, but wasn't suspicious of her and was still friendly. She could have just said that she was at the inn because she was visiting her sick father before he died, and that she was on her way back up north. Instead, she did the dumbest thing possible, ignoring Ned's requests of her to ready the North for war, kidnapping Tyrion, and putting her whole family in King's Landing in danger.

[@incanusolorin2607]

@j-rey- in her eyes she was kidnapping the man who sent an assassin to murder her son. Would you let the man who tried to kill your son go?

[@Atrulion]

I LOVE YOU for putting warnings in our faces! I always go into a video with questions such as spoilers! I am currently at the end of the third book, after *that one wedding,* so I thought perhaps I might be safe, as you might not spoil ahead. Thank you so much for letting me know!

[@Bookborn]

AH MANNN you've got so much good (well by good I mean devastating) stuff ahead. I loved Feast for Crows sooo much....

[@sammcclure1553]

I absolutely can't recommend highly enough moving to the Dunk and Egg novellas after finishing Storm. I went straight into Feast and I wasn't ready for the change of pace and ended up being super disappointed in Feast, which very well might be my favorite to re-read.

[@Bookborn]

@@sammcclure1553 ohhh actually yes listen to this, this is what I did lol I just forgot. Dunk and Egg is also a nice "happier" break after ASOS (not that it's happy. I said "ier" lmao)

[@dantesinfernape]

Been eagerly awaiting this! I like Catelyn too. She got duped - her sister lied to her about the Lannisters re: Jon Arryn, and Petyr lied to her about the knife. She trusted her family and childhood friend, and they fucked her over.

[@jjjjjjjjjj11ify]

My head canon is that before Ned's execution, Littlefinger said something to Joffrey along the lines of "A strong king can't tolerate treachery." Then bribed Sir Ilyn Payne to execute Ned as quickly as possible before Cersei or any Council member could interfere. Because what was Ilyn doing there anyway? Ned was suppose to be sent to the wall. Cersei, Varys, Pycelle and the High Septon all wanted Ned alive. Had to be Littlefinger.

[@sammcclure1553]

There's a theory out there that Jaqen was hired by Littlefinger to kill in Ned in case this exact plot didn't go as planned. He mentions knowing how much hiring Faceless Men cost. Tyrion can't seem to figure out where all the Crown's money went. There's a fair bit of smoke there. I don't think we'll ever find out, as the character closest to Littlefinger is Sansa, and he's certainly not going to admit to plotting to kill her father, but I like the theory.

[@pyramidion5911]

Its one of the moments where a whisper changed everything. This is why it's important to read the series at least two or three times before starting to piece it all together. Most people have no clue about the westerosi hit squad that's been operating behind a lot of the events we read about including Bran and Joffreys assassinations.

[@Wolfram-Hart]

I started reading the books around the same time you did, so these videos have been very fun to watch as they've come out. I was never a Catelyn hater, and I tended to really like her chapters. (though I will admit that sometimes I felt that she was the least interesting person in the room, with the likes of Robb, Tyrion, Jaime, Renly/Stannis as some of her scene partners, but maybe that's because I'm not a mother!). That being said, this video has increased my appreciation of her! In particular, the points about the portrayal of motherhood that you were making helped me a lot! The idea that she represents both the loving devoted mom, and the 'evil' stepmother is really cool, and I didn't think of it that way! Wow! Thank you for helping me enjoy this already wonderfully written character! I hope even the haters can agree that her chapters are more interesting than Bran puttering about Winterfell with the Freys!

[@NaritaZaraki]

Chef's kiss, no notes, 10/10!!! Loving Catelyn AND not liking Tywin is a truly tiny corner to stand in in this fandom but I am standing there with you. ^_^

[@Bookborn]

Hehe I don’t dislike Tywin as a character - I think he’s fascinating and well written- but yeah he annoys the heck out of me 😂

[@NaritaZaraki]

@@Bookborn Same! He's an incredibly well written character. He would also not make it into my top 30 characters if I tried but that's between me and the books 🤣 More than anything, I'm just constantly bumping up against how much of a hot take it seems to be to not absolutely love Tywin. The pushback makes me aware of the same kind of disconnect I feel between how Catelyn and Sansa are actually portrayed in the text, and how they are largely perceived/received. Except in reverse in Tywin's case.

[@timholland1764]

Legit my favorite character in the series. She is so well written and while she makes mistakes, these are 100% understandable and add to her depth as a character.

[@Bluerock121]

So excited! I love Caitlyn. I can understand why other people don’t, but what I don’t understand is people who say shes poorly written or that she’s any worse of a person than any other morally grey ASOIAF character.

[@Bookborn]

Yeah I think that's the argument I like least. I don't care when people dislike her, but some people say with their full chest that she's the worst person in ASOIAF and like... please ☠

[@nrran6835]

She isn’t even a grey character. She does 2 things poorly, Jon and not preparing Sansa for her life as a noble woman and what that ACTUALLY entails. Neither of those things are EVIL, necessarily. I also won’t defend her treatment of Jon, but I can’t say for sure I wouldn’t act the same way if I were in her shoes.

[@sierotkamarysia4199]

The fandom has a misogyny problem that they don’t want admit to 🙅‍♀️ Especially the TV show fandom - if female character isn’t a badass but is bad or make mistakes she tends to be treated worse than ,,morally grey’’ (a lot of them are just straight up evil) men that have ,,epic’’ scenes.

[@bookswithike3256]

@sierotkamarysia4199 To be fair, the writers of the show also had a misogyny problem.

[@lexyruse603]

​@@nrran6835 I mean if you were in the situation cat was in I would hope you would leave instead of taking it out on a child. I have an issue with people who forgive their cheating spouses but place their anger towards the child. Granted I don't even hate Catelyn. I didn't even know she was widely but I do think mistreating children is pretty evil to me.

[@julianivanov1139]

love this! it's amazing how often i listen to someone speak about the the asoiaf books / world and get shown something new that i hadn't fully noticed or realized about these characters and this world!!! thank you!

[@tobydorman3998]

BIGGEST CATELYN STAN, ULTRA BASED, NEVER WRONG

[@CHB535]

I loved this video so much. While catelyn isn’t one of my favorite characters, she often has some of my favorite chapters. One of my top 5 chapters of the series is the one where she is reminiscing about her father and caring for him at his bedside. I don’t remember what book it was in, all I remember was that I was so teary-eyed by the end of it

[@nateh9917]

This was one of my favorite character analyses of asoiaf I’ve ever seen (I’ve seen a lot lol). I’d love for you to do more videos like this about other characters or topics (I know you’ve mentioned loyalty as a topic which would be so cool)

[@rabbithaze9707]

I've seen someone say before, and I agree. That the decision from Martin to have the classic fantasy story of " the boy king at war for justice/vengeance" from the perspective of his Mother is like one of the absolute best decisions that the series makes. The fact the character is like a whole person with her own thing just adds on top of and deepens what is already fantastic fantasy writing.

[@SoCalSon395]

Catelyn hate to me goes in the same category as the weird people that hate Skylar White and Betty Draper because they're annoying. Catelyn is not a fun character, she doesn't really enable the characters around her that we like like Robb, Ned, Tyrion, and Edmure, and she doesn't have sex appeal, and if you don't tick those boxes there's an unfortunately very prominent and vocal subset of people that will always hate that kind of character. I love Catelyn, and I think a lot of the people who dislike her don't like the way Catelyn's story challenges them to reconsider their preconceived notions, and you're exactly right to say she'd be so much less interesting if she didn't challenge readers in that way.

[@Corlwow]

She is my fav character from both the books AND the show. And i know it’s show specific - but Michelle Fairley deserved an emmy for a certain season.

[@Sheija]

I actually think Robb’s letter is set up to cause exactly the kind of conflict we see in the Blackfyre Rebellions. Not because Jon or any of the Starks will turn on each other, but because of their supporters. Rick on is only a child but the Manderlys and whoever else backs him may see Jon in a similar way to Catelyn - especially post-resurrection. There’s even the rumours that Daemon Blackfyre didn’t want to start the rebellion but was forced into it by his supporters.

[@Fenix-lr6ez]

Honestly, there's no time for that. There might be some pushback against Jon by some houses like the Manderlys, but having a northern civil war on who should be the next king of the north would just take too much time. My bet is that there will be some tension between Jon, Rickon and Sansa and their allies (the wildlings/remnants of Stannis' army for Jon, the Manderlys for Rickon and the Vale for Sansa) but that it will disappear whenever Robb's will is made public. I doubt any house would continue to go against Jon after knowing it's what their last king decreed.

[@nont18411]

@@Fenix-lr6ez I think the central figure in this conflict is Littlefinger. He might be able to ruin the relationship between Jon and Sansa in some form and get some of the Northern lords killed but once he died, the conflict will be over to prep the remaining players for the long night.

[@BagelBBagel]

Honestly, Catelyn is a character that was never a personal favorite of mine in the show when I first watched it. In the books, though, her internal monologue and the way we see the cogs turn as she makes the decisions she does, even the bad ones, really let me appreciate her character a lot more. Her POV chapters became some of my favorites, particularly in A Clash of Kings.

[@lovenaartjies]

This is such a good video about motherhood in fantasy, in particular, excellent job! Related: for an extraordinary depiction of motherhood that offers a nuanced, depth-filled perspective on the entire topic, I would highly recommend Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang. Edit: Hahahaha! Nevermind on the above, which I typed early on in the beginning - you already have the plug.

[@Bookborn]

Hehe yes I am obsessed with that book. Wang did an incredible job

[@yetipotato8567]

I belive Cat was the most content just being the noble lady and a mother to her children. She might be a bit lonely surrounded by grumpy northeners but she clearly loves Ned and the children and se clearly was in a verge of really forming her own noble ladies court with Sansa and slowly warming northeners. Resentment for Jon was the only snag in her life. Then the actions of the series force her to act beyond her station. Lysas message was bad news, Ned leaving, Bran almost dying almost breaks her. Then with the scheming and travelling she really is a fish out of water and she makes some but undestandable bad decisions but also she does her best.

[@RaulRamirez-se9qo]

Great points!! I agree with a lot with what you pointed out. Maybe no so much the kidnap point, since I believe that's what motivated Jamie to attack ned and tywin to attack the Riverlands, so while there were other plot points that would have lead to it, the kidnapping was still the biggest factor Other than that amazing video and good to show her to the fullness of her character

[@bataille23]

Excellent video. I just listened to GoT on audio over the holidays. The early chapters of Catelyn and John were rough, but I think all of your points here in the video are fantastic. I also really like your analysis of Cat and Tyrion. Cat taking him hostage, I 100 percent agree with your take on it. I also feel like at that point Cat does not realize how her Sister has changed. The whole trek to the Eyrie and the fact that Tyrion is given a weapon and then takes over his imprisoned by the sister who thinks that Tyrion killed her husband is like a runaway train all from a momentary decision of circumstance. A lot of the events in GoT are similar where we see the “Gardener” style of writing that Martin does. Westeros is totally a run a way train the whole time. Ha ha ha. That is why I love it and the complex characters and unique perspectives he brings to the genre.

[@Bookborn]

Catelyn's discovery of how Lysa has changed is just CHILLING. Honestly, one of my favorite clips of the show I"ve ever seen is the opening scene of Cat bringing Tyrion into the room. Everyone acts the HECK out of it, and Catelyn's actress does such a good job of making her face go "oh no. oh no oh no oh no"

[@travys91]

She is my absolute favorite character from the books. loveeeee this video so much.

[@deldel5204]

In the show, the Karstarks we’re going to kill Jamie the night Catelyn freed him. Nobody ever brings that up. People act like she freed him only because she wanted to get her daughters back. That was a motivation, but she freed him because he would be completely useless if a bunch Karstark men killed him for revenge. At least by freeing him under the watch of Brienne you have a chance to get the girls back.

[@nont18411]

You mean he would be completely “useless”?

[@deldel5204]

@@nont18411 I just noticed the typo. While you’re here though what are your thoughts on Catelyn freeing Jamie?

[@liamfreeman6197]

People always forget this, they act like if cat didn't release him then he would still be a prisoner for rob to barter with. No lol he was a dead man at least thats how the show portrayed

[@pyramidion5911]

Yeah but the show is always secondary to the book. The show was a mess of people trying to make changes and the books are Grrms actual vision for the series. Without Grrm you don't get asoiaf, its not some simple fairytale that anyone can come up with. He is a master of writing and the books are nothing short of brilliant.

[@LouisLedder]

Love your ASOIAF videos and have been waiting for this one for a long time. When I first read the books as a younger man, I definitely had an initial negative reaction to Catelyn based on her behavior to Jon, but I’d definitely come around on her through re-reads. I think she’s one of the most politically astute characters we see, despite lacking a lot of information.

[@isa_txo]

Catlyn is so well writen, she feels so real, and I think most people in the fandom over exaggerate how badly she treated Jon, in the books there is only one scene where she is cruel to him (and it is because she is grieving Brand) I'm sure she was cold with Jon during childhood, but Ned would never have allowed her to mistreat "his son." On the other hand, Jon has no traumatic memories because of Cat. All he remembers are good times with his siblings. And it's not that George refrains from relating traumatic memories in most of his characters.

[@davidalbee5039]

I finally finished my reread of clash of kings this week, and Catelyn has become my absolute favorite. Partially cause of your first read through, but also I found myself almost crying multiple rimes in clash, she’s arguably I think a mirror of who Arya will be - a couple things said in clash I absolutely love Catelyn’s feminine and masculine duality. Where I am in Storm of swords is where she realizes her father’s treatment of her sister and my heart broke. Cause I relate to this perspective with my parents - not something that dramatic as with them, but just the realization that they were younger, had their own lives, etc

[@davidalbee5039]

Also, the way she talks about Arya in Storm of swords, she absolutely absolutely loves her!

[@mr.alfredo9252]

The chapter of her at the Whispering Woods is one of the best chapters in the first book, and the "not my hair. Ned loves my hair" line is one of the most heartbreaking in the series.

[@ayanna6327]

I love both Jon and Catelyn - and it's so tragic that they never got along because they actually share quite a bit in common in that they both cherish their family, are willing to make sacrifices for them, have a strong sense of honor, duty, and are prone to pettiness at times. They're also both brooding characters with a lot of intrigue in their inner monologues.

[@Leif_of_Kasper]

0:00 "I have not seen the TV show" That's beyond our borders. You must never go there, Simba

[@TruePerception]

To be fair, Ned should have informed Catlyn about Jon. Granted, he barely knew her at the time of Jon's birth, but he could have taken her into confidence later.

[@JackSchitt-p9t]

Does Cat show herself to be worthy of that trust? I don't think so. Ned did not love Cat when he went off to war, but he loved his family and he loved his sister. Ned prioritized the protection of his sister's son over the wife assigned to him for political reasons.

[@Quark214]

They barely knew each other, Cat had a crash on Ned's older brother, Brandon. And in the books at least, Cat actually found Ned fairly disappointing at first compared to Brandon. Keep in mind, Ned's a very average guy, average in looks, size, combat skill. He's not at all strapping, rowdy or handsome in the same way Brandon or Robert were. Also, Cat being indifferent to Jon was Ned's way of getting Cat to play her part in protecting him. Telling her would have resulted in either: Cat hating him even more, since she'd see him as a liability and a threat, or not hating him or even being indifferent to him, which would also raise some questions. Oh, and in restrospect telling Cat would have been horrible, Cat trusts Lysa. And she could reveal it to her, who in turn would reveal it to Littlefinger, and from there let your imagination run wild.

[@thecollector6746]

There is no excuse for Catlyn's behavior towards Jon. NONE.

[@Quark214]

@@thecollector6746 Why? For the most part, she was completely indifferent towards him. This one time she is mean to him, and tells him it should have been him is when she is in great distress, and after staying up all night caring for Bran. Unlike a woman in our world in our modern day, Catelyn can't just file for a divorce. Even by Westeros standards she is not expected to care for Jon. Highborn women are not expected to care for their husband's bastards. Jon is seen as being a dishonor done to her by Ned. Also, Cat was fairly leniant, Cersei outright states that in her place she would have had Jon killed. And really not just Cersei, paste Olenna's, Selyse's, Lysa's or hell even't Margaery's personality on Cat and Jon would have had a fatal horse ridding accident long before the series stars. There's plenty of dumb shit Catelyn has done like arresting Tyrion, convincing Ned to trust Littlefinger (though i personally can't blame her for that, because 99.9% of Westeros trusts Littlefinger, the show misinterpreted him greatly), releasing Jaime.

[@Quark214]

@@thecollector6746 Except there absolutely is. Catelyn is under no obligation whatsoever to care for Jon. And people seem to not understand how she treated him. Except that one instance where she was distressed over Bran falling out of the tower and being comatose with her staying by his bedside all night. Cat wasn't mean to Jon, she was indifferent to him, which for a highborn lady it's about as good as it gets. Catelyn can't just file for a divorce, like a woman in our world and our times can do. Ned bringing a bastard to Winterfell is seen as an insult and a dishonor to her. Even by Westeros standards, Jon is not seen in any way shape or form as Catelyn's responsability. Cersei event outright states that if she was in Cat's place, she'd have just killed him. She also threatened fricking Robert in his prime this way, with regards to Mya Stone. As far as noblewomen go, Ned is insanely lucky with Cat, give Cat the personality of Cersei, Olenna, Lysa, Selyse or even Margaery and either Ned would have to come up with a different story regarding Jon's parentage or Jon will have a fatal horse ridding accident very early on in his life. I really don't understand this fandom's obsession with hating on Cat for being mean to Jon, what about Alister Thorne, or hell Stannis is at time more of an asshole to him than Cat was. Add in the fact that Jon could indeed be a very real threat to her children's inheritance and by extension to the alliance between the Starks and Tullys. There's plenty of things Catelyn did wrong, arresting Tyrion, getting Ned to trust Littlefinger (granted like 99.99% of Westeros trusts Littlefinger, the show greatly misinterpreted him, he is not seen by others as some scheming mastermind, he is seen as the guy that's mostly there), freeing Jaime. Like being mean to Jon really is not up there, especially considering that it happened exactly once, and it was under somewhat reasonable circumstances given the context and the culture.

[@philruck7066]

Great video, as usual with your asoiaf videos. Cat is one my favorites, too (dont forget Sansa, love her). And I gotta admit: Michelle Fairley is so fantastic in her role, probably the best performance of all the actors.

[@MichaelTargaryen809]

the way I was rewatching your asoiaf reviews the other day and said to myself "I can't wait for the defense of catlyn vid"

[@Bookborn]

I'm glad I could finally deliver 😌

[@MichaelTargaryen809]

​@Bookborn i just got to the point in the vid where someone called u a bad mom for your take. People are psychotic you are such a blessing for existing above petty immature comments like that, some people seriously need to get a life

[@Bookborn]

@@MichaelTargaryen809 tbh comments like that are so ridiculous they make me laugh, not get sad.

[@MichaelTargaryen809]

@@Bookborn a queenly response to foolishness

[@Earth2Stephen]

Thank you for doing this! Catelyn's chapters are imo some of the best in the books. It is another testament to GRRM's skill as a writer to say that even though she isn't in my top five characters, I will both re-read and listen to them on occasion as much if not more than other characters' chapters!

[@sheagaming]

catelyn has always been one of my favorites, i remember watching that order of the green hand video and finding all the arguments to be really weak. i’m glad you made this video. i distinctly remember reading AGOT for the first time and remembered how conflicted i felt about how she treated jon and that helped me realize all of these characters are deeply flawed people and it made the story so much more interesting

[@carythacker8049]

I love her so much omg. She's so great in the books. I've never seen the show either.

[@CNTconnoisseur]

It's just so nice to see a KZbin video with a script. Great script, too. Great job. I'm so used to KZbinrs just doing the absolute bare minimum.

[@nateh9917]

Was rewatching all of your asoiaf again and wondering when this video would come out omg I’m excited

[@N.A.Summur]

Really enjoy this video. Always love your nuanced ASOIAF takes. I never really got the Catelyn hate either and this does a lot, and more, to illustrate why it’s confusing.

[@juancho8265]

Finalmente! No he visto el video todavía pero, por el historial de videos que tienes en tu canal y obviamente por el título de éste, estoy totalmente de acuerdo jaja

[@svetozarbubalo230]

I have ALWAYS loved Catelyn, for mostly all the same reasons you mention here! She is such an interesting, insightful character, and her complexity is one of the factors contributing to that. Catelyn has spent the thirty or so years of her life as a royal in the world of Westeros, and she really feels like someone with years of experience in politics and such. Maybe that's one of the reasons why her chapters are so interesting: through her POV, we as readers get to know so much about the great houses, Westerosi history and the machinations of power in the seven kingdoms. I also really like yout interpretation of Stoneheart. It sounds just like Martin for the consequence of the delayed resurrection to be her being reduced to the few base emotions she felt prior to dying!

[@ZackRekeSkjell]

Thank you for making this video! Catlyn is one of my absolute favourite characters in this series and I never really understood the hate for her. She brings a very interesting perspective to the conflict and she feels so real in her flaws. I’m not a mother myself, but I do see how my mother has such different relationships with me and my sister while still loving us and wanting what’s best for us. What I adore about the writings of George Martin and what I see him doing with ASOIAF, is him showing us how a limited perspective affects the actions of a character. It’s so frustrating as a reader to see characters not having a vital piece of information and making an awful decision based on it. Also, it’s a tragedy seeing Catlyn dying believing all her children to be dead while we know only one of them is. This reminds me how we all make decisions based on what we know and what we believe to be the best for the people we care about, and this is what I’d say is the genius of Martin’s writing.

[@iihastega5972]

I’ve always noted my emotion when I turn the page in ASOIAF and see the next chapters POV name. If it’s Samwell, Daenerys or maybe even Arya then I’m more likely to groan than if it’s Eddard, Catelyn, Cersei or Tyrion. Edit: Also I only realised on my second reading, Catelyn arresting Tyrion sparks off the whole war yet not Robb or literally anybody asks Catelyn why she did that. It’s just some mad flight of fancy that the Kings mum does. Is nobody curious lol?

[@pyramidion5911]

Brienne taught me to never complain about a character that starts out boring

[@sammcclure1553]

Thought question that I'd love to hear others' opinion on: Would Robb's character be more or less interesting if we got POV characters for him? I absolutely love seeing his actions through the lens of his mother and am glad GRRM resisted the urge to make him a POV character.

[@Bookborn]

I have never given thought until this moment about the fact that we never get a Robb pov. FASCINATING. I shall be contemplating this 😂

[@sammcclure1553]

@@Bookborn I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[@TheJManRises]

@@Bookborn an interesting thing to think about is non of the kings during the war of the 5 kings have their own POVs, we always see them through someone else’s eyes

[@hardyworld]

I think a Robb POV would have shown a very intelligent character that outwardly feigns strength and confidence when he's inwardly second-guessing himself constantly (as a result of the combination of being smart/educated and completely inexperienced in the role he's thrown into) while still emotionally being a mother's boy. I think looking at it from Cat's POV gave us everything we needed to know about Robb while keeping his veil of strength in front of the reader.

[@gokbay3057]

@@Bookborn We don't get POVs from any of the kings! Dany is pretty much the only exception (though Ned, Jon (as Lord Commander) and Cersei can be considered "rulers" of a sort).

[@colinplaisance4274]

Thank you! I’ve been waiting for someone to give the character of Catelyn the appreciation she is due. I also love how Cersei and catelyn are mirror images in many ways. Had the Mad King not gone mad, and been jealous of Tywin. Catelyn would’ve ended up Brandon who was more like Robert, and Cersei would’ve ended up with rhaegar who was more like Ned.

[@GallowglassVT]

I enjoy thinking of scenarios where Ned told Cat who Jon really is as much as the next fan, especially given the possibilities it holds for how things might play out if they'd had a mother-son relationship. However, as a writer, I can acknowledge the situation in the book for what it is; as you said, a tragedy, and all the emotions that come with it when I'm not playing third party intermediary on a situation I haven't lived through.

[@TonyB2279]

What caused the war: 1. Cersei having illegitimate kids with Jaime. 2. Jon Arryn, then Ned discovering it. 3. Ned telling Cersei about his discovery to give her a chance to flee. 4. Cersei and her co-conspirators murdering Robert. 5. Ned refusing to back Renley, which would have saved his own life (thus preventing aggression from the North) and might have allowed a marriage to be brokered with Renley that would've given the Lannisters a continued line to the throne. This would've pitted Lannisters and Renley's (and Tyrells) against Stannis, which likely would've resulted in him being defeated much sooner. Years of war averted.

[@Wolfram-Hart]

Those are indeed the causes of the wider succession war, but even before Robert died, the Lannisters and Starks were going to war independently because of the capture of Tyrion (and Bran being pushed out the window).

[@TonyB2279]

@Wolfram-Hart That's not the war that happened though, only one that might have happened if we didn't get the war we did. Only Jaime gives a damn about Tyrrion, and with Tywin and Ned in charge, I think cooler heads would've prevailed.

[@pyramidion5911]

Lol it goes a little deeper than that

[@ancatdal]

I don't have time to watch it right now, but I am SO looking forward to seeing this! ❤

[@bigbk301]

Great video and I really like your ASOIAF content.

[@ericF-17]

This is an absolutely amazing video. Brilliant and probably very validating to a lot of people. Catelyn is a great character. My one qualm would be that I personally feel you implied that Jaime killing Aerys was immoral. It was not. It was, in fact, arguably his "finest act," as he says.

[@AndiEmly]

Never heard of you and Im still liking your video before I watch because I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO DEFEND CATELYN *edit* I watched it and Im subscribing.

[@PistachioDean]

30:42 YOUR LIST! I’m crying 😂 Can you make a similar one for Sansa? Because the fandom is hellbent on blaming a child, when all the adults have done so much worse than an 11 year old girl

[@VinnieMF]

09:12 The egregious part for her was that Jon got to Winterfell before she did. When she arrived there with baby Robb, Jon and his caretaker were already there, so her new home was already "defiled". It's important to remember she didn't hold a grudge against Ned for having Jon. She doesn't like it, of course, but acknowledges it's common for men, especially during war. In fact, she expected him to provide for the child he brought to the world. What she disliked was Ned bringing him to Winterfell. Had Ned arranged for Jon to be fostered by some lord in the North, or given him to a local couple and support them financially, all of that could be avoided.

[@ivanmp3e48]

I think Catelyn's treatment of Jon may be way more practical that people realize. Her safety and position is based entirely on who she is marryed to and her only option of keeping them in the future is ro have a child of hers to rule Winterfell. Even if Jon would grow up loyal to his brothers, that didn't mean his children wouldn't contest their uncles and cousins rights, endangefing her, her children and the grandchildren she may one day have. That's why she was so relieved Jon wanted to go to the wall, it just solved 99% of her problems with him.

[@louthegiantcookie]

A very good point. If Cat was an ordinary person, she might have leeway to treat Jon better, but her position almost demands a level of distance from him. Jon could be the most loyal person in the world, and still be used by other forces to undermine her children. Politics is a brutal business, whether in the medieval age, a fantasy world, or our own time, and sometimes good people get trampled on.

[@pyramidion5911]

Wow

[@ShirleyTimple]

So she was a cold bitch out of a sense of self preservation, that makes it okie dokie😅. I'm sure Jon feels better now lol Btw, you literally described Cersei's motivations while justifying Cat's behavior...🤭

[@yaw1492]

Making the biggest threat to your sons hate you is not a smart decision. Especially when they share the same roof. She's lucky Jon did not hold any resentment towards her kids for how she treated him.

[@KcannyTBO]

Loved the video! I've always thought Catelyn is very interesting just because of what you said, she's very complex and flawed. I didn't know people hated her so much until I heard you mention it and I saw the comments about it and I was really shocked. I do believe it's easier to not like her when you've only seen the show just because of how much they didn't include about her storyline. And I don't mean just the fact that they skipped Lady Stoneheart but also that in the books we get to see a lot of her thought process and it adds so much more depth to her. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, specially since I'm not a mother, even though I can emphatize with her, it's definitely amazing to hear from a mother how these different situations would affect a real mom.

[@Seraphina-Rose]

Our society is so unforgivingly harsh and judgmental about mothers.

[@jennifera.4511]

Like Maisie Peters said, "men start wars yet Troy hates Helen", our society is so enlighted, but she's the Helen of Troy of ASOAIF, everything is her fault apparently. I love Catelyn, the biggest exposer of hypocrites ever lmao Like, your video was an example of how people react when male characters make mistakes/cruel acts/have any flaws; and when women do. They criticize women way more and ignore ANY context. And even so, some (only one) female characters get a pass and a looot of excuses "because of her journey" and how it relates to them in 2025, but Catelyn's journey doesn't exist to these people. The very same people who criticize Catelyn are weirdly the same who call Jon kingslayer for unaliving Dany, the same people who call TV!Tyrion a kingslayer for conspiring against Dany (I bet they wish Catelyn had unalived him in the past instead of capturing him, hein?), the same who praise TV!Rhaenys for being so 2025-minded and accepting Corly's bastard in a medieval-like setting, aka having no flaws lmao

[@TheThezenith]

i reccomended Game of Thrones to my mum a while back, I dont think she ever read book 2 as I dont think GoT was really her thing, but I do remember defending Catelyn with pretty much all of these arguments, when she was complaining about how much she disliked Catelyn in book 1. How she treated Jon really annoyed her. I think maybe it was because in a family where I have half siblings, she may be especially sensitive to how parents treat children who arent their own or something, Personally I love Catelyn she is one of the most wonderfully written wonderfully flawed characters in the books. Her chapters were always some of the best

[@incanusolorin2607]

I love Catelyn too! She's smart (the quick thinking it took to be able to kidnap Tyrion was amazing), kind (not just to her family and servants, but even to the random crew of the ship that took her to KL), and honourable.

[@MrMoadka]

kind unless you’re a bastard.

[@incanusolorin2607]

@MrMoadka I don't recall her being a bitch to Mia Stone. She wasn't kind to Jon, obviously, but interesting characters have flaws.

[@ArustaStarry]

I think the biggest thing people miss when blaming Catelyn for Tyrion is that we-as-readers get to view it dispassionately and think it through. Catelyn was reacting in the moment about "the Lannisters" and Tyrion was right there in a way that Jamie, Cersei, and Tywin were not. She reacted in the moment on the opportunity to force answers out of Tyrion and get revenge...and then once she'd taken that decision, there's no way she could have taken it back. I do however blame Catelyn completely for the terrible decision in releasing Jamie (who wasn't even her prisoner to make decisions on). She had time to think through what she wanted to do, clearly pre-planned the release to some extent, and still went through with it. Even if she was acting as a mother as you say, it's laughable that she would believe that Jamie Kingslayer Lannister would actually keep his vow. In that same scene, he admits to throwing Bran out the window, that he would have killed Robb in the Whispering Wood if he'd gotten the chance, and that he has poop for honor. Why in the world would she be like "you know, this is the guy who'll keep to our deal and save my daughters, yep, let's trust this guy"?

[@tobydorman3998]

Agreed with this critique, though I do think Catelyn sometimes gets unfairly judged

[@Bookborn]

This is what I’m saying lol like I think it’s weird people focus on the Tyrion part and never the Jaime part - that was for sure her worst decision! Iirc tho she was really putting her hope in Tyrion. Even though she mistreated him, she believed he’d send her daughters back which I always find fascinating.

[@Antonio-oc8ub]

Ok I have a ton of things to say on this one I’m going to be upfront and admit it: I didn’t like Catelyn when I first read AGOT. I didn’t get a lot of her character (even if I appreciate her role more in retrospect) and yes I had problems with the decision of kidnapping Tyrion, but for slightly different reasons. In the book they tell me that she is very smart in relation to politics and society (not directly but Catelyn is presented this way) and I do believe, but that decision, as you said, was reaaaaally bad and I just got very annoyed because I don’t think she would have made that decision if she wrestled so smart (even if she was in a difficult position and had to improvise, it seemed even a bit out of character for her), I just had problems with that development. Of course the decision created consequences and while I don’t think she is to blame for everything (specially blaming her for Ned’s death is stupid. Ned caused his own death imo, not even because of the talk with Cersei but because he trusted Littlefinger and yeah big mistake) BUT I do think that she is partially responsible for some things that happened later and the thing is I don’t remember many instances of characters telling her it was really stupid to kidnap Tyrion and that kind of annoyed me. It also doesn’t help that in a big part of the book Tyrion is with her and I liked to read his perspective better so yeah she was not winning me over…. And then I get to A clash of kings and her chapters… are suddenly really good. Like I really wasn’t a fan of her perspective in the first book but in this one it was banger after banger. When she arrives at Renly’s camp and we have this contrast between his people, that are eager to go to war, and her, who has seen what the war does and is devastated by the situation… is magnificent. We get a chapter of her simply going to the sept to pray and it is one of the most beautiful chapters in all of ASOIAF. You didn’t mention but her faith is written in such a phenomenal way I adore it, and this chapter was one that made me so emotional. I’m obviously partial to Tyrion’s chapters in Clash because obviously but I have no problems with calling Catelyn’s perspective my second favorite in that book, I was shocked by the level of depth, the level of emotion and how masterfully she was written in that novel. I also adore how important she is as a perspective in that book because we obviously have the “Clash of kings” and it is extremely important thematically that we don’t experience that clash through the perspective of one of the kings, that’s why we have the perspective of Davos instead of Stannis and Catelyn’s instead of Robb’s, and that is also done in a great way. Also obviously her chapters in ASOS are amazing and I think people sometimes forget to mention that the Red wedding chapter is a Catelyn chapter and well yeah… best chapter in the series for me probably, I can’t read the last couple of paragraphs without crying, Anyway, phenomenal video. It was really eye opening specially when you talked about the role of parental figures in fiction and the relationship Catelyn has with her children. I hope I get to appreciate her chapters in AGOT more on a reread. Edit: oh also, don’t get why everyone mentions her relationship with Jon every single time, like I get it’s a very big flaw of hers but it was also not the biggest part of her characterization? Like she doesn’t think of Jon as often as you would think seeing some comments. And like by the standards of Westeros she is actually kinda soft, Cersei literally has a chapter where she says something along the lines of “yeah Catelyn Stark was a softie, if that had happened to me that bastard would be dead already lmao”

[@bztheat42]

I actually appreciate this take. She still frustrates me to blisters. And yeah ladystone heart is not at all the same person as cat, just a shadow

[@shinymk6562]

I have waited a long time for this! As someone who started with the show and then started reading the books, I always loked Catelyn, especially once I read the books. Yes, you see more of her bad side in the books, especially with the internals monologues and how she thinks of Jon that isn't too present in the show, (although it is there here and there,) but I still love her character even if I disagree with her treatment of Jon because the inner monologues make her more intertas a flawed but good mother/person and heart, and the whole Jon being her nephew (by marriage) thing makes it all the more tragic as you said. I really hope if we ever do see Stoneheart's end, a bit of Catelyn comes back via her and Jon making amends and her crowning him as King in the North. I don't need, (or even really want) her to find out his true parentage because it would cheapen her forgiveness/apology, I just want her showing mercy to be what allows her to finally rest. Yes she would be distraught if she found out Jon was her nephew and definitely forgive/apologize, but it wouldn't be as beautiful or meaningful if she did out out of her presumed "stone heart," showing that while much if Catelyn did die, there is a bit of her still in there; the person who felt guilt towards how she treated Jon, even if she pushed that confrontation within herself away before.

[@RAWRRAWRRAWR4444]

Complicated faves? Naw, I stan my (relatively) morally uncomplicated king Davos Seaworth

[@aminaa5824]

YAYYYY I was waiting for this video

[@lennyjenkins9931]

Watching videos like these is the reason why i really want to read the Books but the fact that GRRM might never finish them is making me question whether or not I should read them.

[@pingu7267]

I will always defend Catelyn Stark like I always defend Skylar White in Breaking Bad!😭🙏🏻 It's crazy how sometimes people just start hating on a character simply because they stand in the way of their favorite character, like when Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion or emotionally abused Jon. A really great point you mentioned is that people tend to judge a character's actions from the perspective of someone who knows everything that's going on rather than putting yourself in the character's shoes. I think it's important to remember that characters are flawed and will make mistakes when they have limited knowledge of what's going on, and that's why I love these characters cause they actually feel realistic.

[@jettdawe6553]

The video I've been waiting for!!!

[@gayanegasparyan4137]

Phenomenal video 🙌🏻Even if she’s not my favourite imo Catlyn is the most complex and interesting female character George wrote!

[@maddy0119]

We love a deep dive into asoiaf characters. And you're totally right - the fandom's treatment of Catelyn is over the top! Lot's of great points here.

[@agthe8999]

Great video! Happy New Year!!!!

[@PistachioDean]

26:48 YES 👏🏻 but I think A LOT more blame needs to be put on the adults in the room, and not the kids. Joff is still a teenager. It’s crazy how much power Cersei and Rob gave him, allowing him to kill one of the most powerful lords in Westeros

[@ThoreTango]

This constant need to defend your take on Catelyn is so bizarre to me. It's a recurring point in all of these reaction, analysis, and discussion videos. Her hatred for Jon was such a minor part of her characterisation, as I remember it, something explained early on, before kind of moving on, and even something she admits half-way not liking about herself, making it almost relatable. And in any case, it is completely drowned out by the bigger picture of the much larger story! So despite this evil-stepmother-aspect, or maybe even partly because of it, I'd say that she's the "most human" of the POV characters. In a roster mostly comprised of deviants, cripples, bastards, and what have you, she's so well rounded, relatable, and sane. Just have a look at Cersei, whose insanity and paranoia basically infuse every single paragraph of her inner life, and the comparison is laughable.

[@tobydorman3998]

Haha well-written and true

[@Bookborn]

Maybe I didn’t need a 30 min video cuz this comment does a pretty good job at it 😂

[@ThoreTango]

@@Bookborn No please don't get any ideas! Can't let those haters get the final word

[@olivereagle4934]

I think the thing that gives me sympathy for Catelyn's treatment of Jon is that Ned is such an honorable person it seems like his only indiscretion was a personal attack on her and every time he shows his control and honor it is another dagger that makes her feel like she is the only person he has ever betrayed. Jon is the only outlet for that frustration because she does love Ned, and has been raised to put that relationship above her feelings of betrayal.