In defense of Sansa Stark

[@mechistarvily5078]

And one more point to mention: even though Arya's plotline was much physically harder/more cruel than Sansa's, through her way Arya met a lot of characters who protected her in one way or another: Jaken H'gar who helped her, The Hound, Gendry, Hotpie etc. But Sansa had no one to trust and no one to talk. She was completely alone for a FEW years with no one by her side

[@tatumgallahair7729]

Sansa’s plotline was also physically brutal, she was literally beat and stripped in front of the nobility

[@mechistarvily5078]

@@tatumgallahair7729 yeah but I meant that she was always in the castle while arya literally ate bugs just not to starve while traveling in war lands

[@morgan4574]

And pretty much everyone who does want or try to help Sansa is lusting after her, literally still a child. Even the Hound. Just because he probably wouldn't act on it doesn't make it less intimidating and wrong

[@mechistarvily5078]

@@morgan4574 yes I never justify the Hound tbh

[@girlzz3]

​@@morgan4574i can't believe people seriously ship her and the hound like 😭😭 she's literally a baby

[@mrc-rrn]

ah yes, Bookborn becoming slowly obsessed with A Song of Ice and Fire :D like so many of us

[@kityhawk2000]

Nah I was over that 10 years ago when I realised GRRM will never finish it

[@DjdhdNewlowueebqs]

now she will obsess with winds of winter

[@mrc-rrn]

@@kityhawk2000 so? The world is still fascinating and there is a lot to discuss about, it’s not just about waiting for winds

[@secicu]

Indeed! Much approved😆 Another one joins🌞

[@kityhawk2000]

@mrc-rrn lol I had those discussions 15 years ago. I first started reading those books in 1998. There's only so much you discuss without actual content. I'm not someone who agrees with hassling authors or thinking I'm entitled to a book but I'm just over it. GRRM has written himself into a creative cul-de-sac. There are many other good book series which have endings and a lot of new and up and coming authors who I'm more interested in now.

[@Otsego]

Sansa is a tragedy. The fans seem to dislike her because she's all Tully and no Stark. She is everything she was raised to be. The ideal girl for that world. Her role would always have been to marry some noble for political reasons and have her own brood. What she dealt with and survived mostly intact is incredible. Sansa is such a strong person. I hope her story doesn’t go the way of the show.

[@testcase6997]

Sansa is a victim and a pawn. She doesn't save herself and is constantly saved by other people who want to use her for their own ends mostly. She herself is a pretty bad person for lying about Micah, then rewriting history regarding that. And she hasn't really changed, her last chapter is her poisoning her own disabled cousin because Sansa is too dumb to realize Littlefinger is evil. I don't hate Sansa but I feel like the Sansa fans are imagining a different character than what's on the page. Sansa is not a main character. Her arc is learning how to spot when someone is a bad guy and so far she hasn't achieved this.

[@ancatdal]

​@@testcase6997 (WARNING: VERY MINOR SPOILERS) I think Sansa is a difficult character for readers to understand, requiring a lot of understanding of human psychology, and of the themes of the story. Sansa grows up believing in "fairy tales", where justice prevails and you can easily tell good from evil. Where people who do bad things get punished, and good people are rewarded. She has grown up a people-pleaser from a young age, with appropriate skills and interests, and she has been praised and rewarded for those all her life. She's "the good girl", and she's rewarded by being betrothed to the crown prince. Her life until that points fits the narrative of her entire life. When Joffrey shows her an ugly glimpse of his true colours, cracks form. Sansa has to react to that. It's easy to just blame her and be dismissive, because we know Arya is in the right, her and Mycah did nothing wrong, and obviously Joffrey is a monster. But! Here's where it gets complicated if you want to look at character, not morality. Sansa is still betrothed to Joffrey after that confrontation. She tells her father about it, and he doesn't call off the wedding. Sansa subconciously has a choice to make. She can believe, broadly speaking, in two realities. 1) Joffrey is a monster. You can do everything "right", and then have bad things coming to you instead of your "rewards". The world isn't cosmically just. Your beloved father might let you marry a monster, who as husband and king will have complete control over you. You have no control over what happens to you. 2) Actually Joffrey isn't so bad, he only did it because Arya and Mycah were doing something they weren't supposed to do, and Arya attacked him when he chasticed Mycah for hitting a highborn lady. This fits the narrative of Arya as "the willfull, disobedient child" that Sansa has grown up with. Joffrey was gallant to Sansa until that moment. Her father wouldn't marry her to Joffrey if Joffrey was such a monster, her father loves her! Sansa has control over what happens to her, she just has to not behave poorly like Arya does. Same narrative as she has lived by all her life; be good and obedient, and you will get rewarded. I think it's easy to understand why anyone, let alone a child, would be subconciously tempted to believe in the latter, because the other option is unbearable. In the character of Sandor Clegane, Sansa meets an embodiment of cynicism. Sandor knows that the world isn't just. His evil brother Gregor was knighted by Prince Rhaegar. He has served the Lannisters all his life. He was in the Sack of King's Landing at Sansa's age. And he has grown into a man who kills children when asked, when he used to be a boy who wanted to play with the wooden knight; and was literally scarred for life by his brother for wanting that, with Gregor escaping justice for that. And Sandor is moved to tears by Sansa's compassion, on more than one occassion. Sansa clings to the fairytale, even to her own detriment, because the alternative is so dark and frightening. Even when her illusions are shattered at her father's death, she holds on to the belief that "it can't all be lies". Importantly, she doesn't throw away all her beliefs when met with a world that doesn't match them. When Sandor says look at my evil brother, that's what knights actually are, Sansa says "he was no true knight". When Cersei says rule with fear, Sansa thinks "if I'm ever queen I'll make them love me". When met with Littlefinger's ruthless scheming, Sansa starts to think that lies aren't so bad "if they are kindly meant". Sansa has a lot of bad influences throughout her story. What she learns from them is different from what they have each become themselves when hurt and disappointed by life. What is so beautiful about Sansa is that she represents an alternative to their dark cynicism, especially Sandor's. As she moves slowly away from her childish naivity, she adopts a more pragmatic idealism. She hasn't completely escaped from her willfull blindness as a coping mechanism, she isn't a perfect paragon, but she is growing quite a lot in subtle ways; learning how to move about in the "real world", with the challenge being not to lose her way in that. Sansa is contrasted heavily with Sandor. Sansa has Brienne searching for her, probably the closest to a "true knight" in the series; one that defies all the traditional trappings of knighthood, but embodies all the ideal substance of it. Brienne in turn intersects with Jaime, another person who grew from an idealistic child (one that wanted to be Arthur Dayne) to cynical cruel adult (who pushes children out windows "for love"). And the quest for Sansa Stark becomes Jaime's chance at honour. Sansa's story is so integral to the story's reconstruction of idealistic romanticism. ASOIAF isn't a grimdark deconstruction of fairy tales; rather, it asks us to face a realistic perspective on our ideals, and how to defiantly maintain those ideals in the face of a world that is only just of we make it so.

[@testcase6997]

@@ancatdal i agree

[@Otsego]

I have a hard time understanding how the person who believes in the good of people to the point of naivete is a bad person. She's made many questionable choices but not really malicious ones. Her whole storyline with Baelish is watching her corruption and heartbreak play out as she has a literal identity crisis. She only begins to play the game as another person and still only to get by. Even at this point, she has shown She's not very good at it because she doesn't think like them. I will avoid direct references to not spoil things as it goes as far in as the sample chapters for Winds of Winter. Also, I call bullshit. She absolutely saved herself. I think this video really highlights that point. If Arya was in her place, she would have died in days. Sansa is able to navigate extremely dangerous situations just by being genuine and a proper "lady." Is that inherently less cool than swashbuckling? Yes. Still, her skill set is what has gotten her this far. That and her name. She is absolutely a damsel in distress. That's her fantasy archetype. The way George twists it is by having her knights always be the absolute worst and take her from one bad situation to another. In terms of not seeing Petyr for what he is, almost no one does. Ned doesn't either, and it gets him killed. He is also the person who does save Sansa from a real monster. In comparison, everyone seems better especiallyher savior. She also is not entirely sold on him but knows this is her best way to stay alive and learn how to not be the damsel in distress. To paraphrase Aemon, She's killing the girl to become the woman. Which is what is so tragic. Sansa is frustrating, often irritating, and ill-equipped for the dangerous world she resides. No one trained her in combat or subterfuge. Her deadliest skill is sewing. I don't expect her to fight out of anything. I do expect to see her start to outwit and out scheme those who seek to use her. That's her character arc.

[@Bookborn]

Sansa IS STRONG and I'm so tired of people claiming she isn't because she isn't fighting. How horribly sad is her story in Clash and Swords 😭Feeling like she has to say the right thing or else she or her other family will die, the entire thing is tragic

[@ryanratchford2530]

I never understood the Sansa hate. Litrally did nothing wrong besides be a teenage girl. Maybe that’s why so many THOSE people hate her.

[@Vance731]

I hate Sansa early on, but not because of how she is a teenage girl, but because she reminds me of how if I were in her shoes I’d somehow do worse than get my dad killed

[@chancelymon1979]

Sansa's only flaw was thinking she was in a romance novel and taking way too long to realize she's in Game of Thrones

[@i.cs.z]

I think it's understandable. The thing is, if you are an adult reading the tought process of a naive preteen is extremly anmoying. And fictional characters, being annoying is a worse crime than committing fictional violance. A lot if people just can't separate "character is annoying" from "character is bad", and have to invent justifications for their dislike.

[@ImNotLuthien]

I didnt even fucking know there was a whole fandom just focused on hating such a random character. Its hilarious.

[@HobDavid]

It's mainly because the book establishes that it doesn't matter who you are, children will get crippled and good men beheaded if you make a mistake. But when sansa or danny make mistakes, all the people around them die and get crippled, it's like they have a magic shield that protects them from the physical consequences that every single other character has to deal with, in favour of some drawn out spiritual and emotional consequences so they can grow as characters, but understand while they are growing, much more likeable and vulnerable characters died horribly. But I've never thought sansa is responsible for neds death, that was obviously his own fault for not drawing swords when he had the chance.

[@aicchi1234]

I find it absurd how people say that she's all Tully and no Stark just because she's very courtly and has the Tully looks. In contrast, I think Sansa inherited Cat's looks but she definitely has Ned Stark's personality and temperament just as how Arya inherited Cat's temperament but has the typical Stark features. Arya is just as fierce as Catelyn, with the same impulsive tendencies. It just so happens that Catelyn was raised to put duty first and was able to present herself with finesse and courtly manners. But make no mistake; this is the same woman who went on a warpath when her son was injured, the same one who impulsively imprisoned Tyrion. She's passionate and strong-willed, and you can definitely see that in Arya. On the other hand, Ned was very calm and composed. A little bit naiive in the way that he believed that men would act in honor in King's Landing until it got him betrayed and killed. Ned Stark, the Quiet Wolf, who to most people didn't even seem like he had an ounce of Wolf's Blood that the Starks were known for. In comparison to Lyanna and Brandon, Ned was gentle and level-headed, more southron than most would like to admit as he was fostered in the Eyrie. Sounds familiar? Probably because Sansa definitely got that from Ned. People think that Sansa is another Catelyn, but no. She's a Ned who is starting to become more cunning and politically savvy. She's a Ned who's starting to see that people will not act in honor. I like to think that Sansa is Ned's narrative successor in this way; the Stark stuck in the South who gives us insight on Southron politics. Anyone who thinks she's not a Stark just refuses to make the connections because they're too hung up on how she's not a sword-swinging girlboss. Sansa is strong. Just not in the way that people can see.

[@MarieCurtis92]

Thank you!!! I've been saying this exact same thing for years now. Sansa looks like Cat, but is Ned at heart. Arya looks like Ned, but is just like Cat. The sun and the moon, different as night and day. It never ceases to amaze me how blind people can be due to their biases.

[@stoneysept]

I'm four months late but I just wanted to say I've been stewing in Asoiaf lore for a decade now and this is the first original thought provoking proposition I've come across in like months if not years (I've seen it all). What a cool fresh way to look at Sansa's relationship to her father :)

[@Belladonnafeli]

THANK YOU!! I've been saying this forever

[@raionfavorites]

This! OMG THIS! Sansa and Ned are the two Starks that resemble the most. They are both very moral and lawful individuals. They both believe in honor and chilvary, and they are both unyielding beyond reason once they are set on a course of action. In that matter they are pretty much the same person. But when we see Ned being all those things, we think is tragic and heroic, in contrast with Sansa... when Sansa portays the very same atributes we think is selfish, inmature, dumb and treacherous. The only real difference between Ned and Sansa is the way we choose to read them, with a big fat load of misoginy and adultcentrism, just as a medieval society would read them. But we are not in the middle ages anymore... what's our excuse guys?

[@armaniscat]

spot on

[@TheAnimalstrength]

It's very easy to forget that Sansa is a CHILD and does not quite understand the ramifications of her actions until after they happen. After which, she desperately tries to repair it (and it goes awry with Joffrey executing Ned) Theres also not a whole lot to suggest it would've gone differently without Sansa talking to Cersei- Ned doesn't exactly do a whole lot to help himself

[@Bookborn]

Joffreys actions were unpredictable To everyone - and Ned’s death was helped along by several characters, not just Sansa’s. I mean the entire book is sort of how every event leads to it

[@autje1970]

Indeed. Ned is not taken captive because his plan is to send his daughters back North, it's because he directly confronted Cersei with the truth about her children. If anyone signed his death certificate, it was he himself.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

​@autje1970 Ned is not on trial here! For shame! Has he it suffered enough?

[@testcase6997]

the problem with this argument is there are several child characters even younger than Sansa and they're all more mature than her. Sansa is fine. Her chapters are entertaining. She herself as a person is meh. She still did betray her father and her chapters 100% consist of her being manipulated easily by pretty evil people. She's a dumb person. And that's fine! Not every character needs to be smart or capable. Sansa's character arc isn't that important and it's simply about her learning to judge which person is trustworthy or not. So far she is far from achieving this simple goal. Currently she's helping LF poison her own disabled cousin and she feels totally fine with that. People want Sansa to be so much more than she is. She's not clever, she's not good at running a castle or fighting or using her wits to escape a dangerous situation. She's a victim with no mental tools at her disposal.

[@EastWatchQ]

Yeah Ned was grass either way.

[@WillDncn]

How the fuck is Sansa supposed to know that she’s signing Ned’s death warrant when no one but Joffrey even considered killing him? Sansa had no reason or experience to believe that the lawful royal family would fuck them over so harshly. And she certainly has no idea about the questionable claim Joffrey has to the throne. She was a sweet summer child and she was punished for it.

[@Bookborn]

Some people just get it 💯💯💯

[@robwest2813]

Not for nothing but she did know Cersei had instigated both Lady and the butchers sons death after Joffrey got himself jumped by Arya and Nymeria for being a dick. I give her a pass because she was an 11 year old girl dreaming of becoming Queen but the signs were there if she wanted to see it.

[@Gunleaver]

@@robwest2813 Except for the fact that Ned's murder was absolutely counter to the interests of the Lannisters, which is why he confessed in the first place. Even if Sansa didn't make that calculation, your reasoning is STILL grossly flawed. - Ned is a Lord Paramount and Warden, from the oldest once-royal family in Westeros, not a butcher's boy. That MATTERS in Westeros, and it absolutely matters to Cersei. There is no reason to believe that Cersei instigating the death of Mycah has any bearing on Ned's safety. - Mycah was accused of striking the crown prince. His death is hardly a unique idea of Cersei's. The Hound just cut him down as a fugitive, and likely did not need any special orders from Cersei to do so. The fact that zero adults think anything of the killing suggests this is hardly an event that marks out Cersei as different from anyone else. - Cersei had nothing to do with Ned's death, aside from her own incompetence in managing the situation allowing it to take place. She did not order or instigate his death, she did not even want it to happen, and it was arranged behind her back. All in all, whatever conclusions you think Sansa should have drawn about Cersei are utterly irrelevant to the issue of Ned's murder. And she's not even an 11 year old dreaming of being queen, like this is a fantasy or ambition of hers, she is an 11 year old who was told she is going to be the next queen, like it or not, and she is making the best of her fate. Joffrey is not a teenage crush she fixated on for his attractiveness, wealth or entertainment profile, he is the person her king and parents decided she is going to marry. Trying to get on Joffrey's good side is not a matter of gratifying a personal desire for his affection, it is the POINT of her betrothal, to obtain royal favor for her family, and also critical to her personal and political survival and success. When Sansa acts nice to Joffrey she is doing her fucking job, exactly the same as when Robb trains in the yard or Ned beheads a deserter!

[@pickettmandi]

No? Even after they slaughtered her innocent wolf Lady. That would have given me a clue.

[@Gunleaver]

@@pickettmandi "They?" Which they? Cersei ordered the wolf killed, Joffrey ordered Ned killed, against Cersei's wishes. If there is any lesson to be learned from the incident with the wolf, it's that Cersei is a better bet to go to when you want something than Ned. It was her wishes that prevailed at Castle Darry, which tells Sansa that Cersei can make Ned let her stay.

[@mollofamerika]

she has some of he most interesting chapters throughout the series - she's the least outwardly opionated (which is part of skillset GRRM is developing for her, along with acting as a chameleon). other characters don't view her as a threat, so they talk about their thoughts and plots and schemes, and she's very very observant about status and social niceties. she's the most attuned to political status of almost any of the POV characters besides cat and cersei, and maybe tyrion

[@Bookborn]

Yep yep yep!! It also makes her one of the best viewpoints in the story, imo, even if she's not your fav character - she's always at the center of the most interesting politics.

[@pushista9322]

I'm not sure Cat was politically savvy. Her proposition to Renly was hilarious, like, why did you even bother coming?

[@mollofamerika]

@@pushista9322 Cat definitely didn't want to go (chapter 22, Clash, I'll paste the relevant passage at the end) - Robb threatened to send the Greatjon if Cat didn't accept. It was her idea, but she also knew from the offset that it was hopeless and says so multiple times in her inner monologue. But over and over, Cat is "right" politically and strategically - she leads Robb to see that Bolton was a better choice than Umber for leading the foot against twyin (tho that has long term consequences), she warns against sending Theon to Balon (balon might still have attacked the north, but winterfell wouldn't have been sacked), she knew how the freys were and how to handle them (the mistake was not anticipating they'd break guest right, but that literally surprises every other character as well), and on and on. she makes mistakes and draws wrong conclusions, but ... so does every other character in the book (that's the point). but she is keenly aware of alliances, how dynasties keep and lose power, the principles of feudal power, and the natures & habits & histories of the major (and many minor) lords/ladies/houses "Catelyn had never wanted this. She had told Robb as much, back in Riverrun. “When last I saw Renly, he was a boy no older than Bran. I do not know him. Send someone else. My place is here with my father, for whatever time he has left.” Her son had looked at her unhappily. “There is no one else. I cannot go myself. Your father’s too ill. The Blackfish is my eyes and ears, I dare not lose him. Your brother I need to hold Riverrun when we march-”"

[@mollofamerika]

@@Bookborn also it would be really cool to see you do a KZbin collab with @glidus @altshiftx or @interestingnerdclub - if you haven't seen @glidus "fake theories" april fools video from two years ago, it's a hilarious overview of the madness of the fan theory community. also the glidus/alt shift x "iceberg" theory discussions really get into the madness. but it would be really cool to hear you (as a critical literary analyst who clearly has a good understanding of the series themes) in discussion with people who basically only make youtube content about ASOIAF - it would be fascinating to hear a conversation between a fresh perspective and a long time expert (there are so many theories and little details that i had no idea about the first time i read, and would be really interesting doing a deep dive into some of the hidden corners of the story)

[@pushista9322]

@@mollofamerika Cat's chapters are tragic in a sense that she constantly undermines her own better judgement. As a daughter of a bipolar mother I do feel bipolar vibes from Catelyn. With Robb she literally drove him crazy with her passive agressive talk, all the way thinking to herself how she is wrong to antagonise him but she can't stop doing it. Or at the inn she thinks they're not ready for war (duh, Ned had just sent her to start preparations) and the next moment she seizes Tyrion. He is her prisoner but then she arms him ("where are the chains, sweet one?" - ever sarcastic Blackfish). Not to mention the beginning when she sends half of her family to hang out in KL with Lannister murderers (to the best of her knowledge). Cat's tragedy is her inability to keep a straight perspective of her own options and the world around her. She's all over the place and extremely self-focused.

[@nabeelhussain1372]

People forget that a character can be well written and just not appeal to them personally, that doesn't mean the character is bad. Outright hate is wild though. Straight up insane what the fandom feels about Sansa and Cat.

[@Lady_Yunalesca]

I think the different way people react to Sansa vs Arya can actually be seen in an early episode of the show. There's that scene in the first episode where the royal family is having dinner at Winterfell. We have learned that Sansa made the dress she is wearing herself after a conversation she has with Cersei. During dinner, Sansa is clearly besotted with Joffrey and keeps smiling at him from across the table. And Arya puts some of her food on a spoon and flicks the food at Sansa, all over her face and her dress. It's meant to be a funny moment - and it makes me chuckle too, because it feels very little sibling - but it's also an undeniably bratty thing for Arya to do. Sansa worked very hard on her dress, and it's important for her and their family for her to make a good impression on Joffrey and the royal family. But people will watch that scene and think Arya is in the right and Sansa is being bratty for being upset about it. Like, it's literally not a nice thing for Arya to do, but people watch it and love Arya for it because...Sansa likes dresses and princes so she deserves to have food thrown at her I guess. I can't remember if it happens this way in the books too, but the way I've seen people respond to this particular scene really underlies how differently their view Arya's childish/bratty actions vs Sansa's.

[@themysticwarriorgal9465]

Nope people react negatively to sansa BC of her attitude to Arya prior to what Arya did. Arya behaviour was just a kid being a kid. I'm an older sister and sansa behaviour to Arya is further more absurd.

[@Hugo-G]

@@themysticwarriorgal9465 Sansa isn't that much older than Arya. They're like what, three or four years apart? People just like Arya because she's a tomboy. A feminine girl is never going to receive as much respect from fantasy nerds. Sansa was a spoiled little princess, but her parents raised her to be. Catelyn was especially disappointed that Arya wasn't like Sansa, so that attitude influenced Sansa's behavior toward Arya too.

[@themysticwarriorgal9465]

@@Hugo-G 3 to 4 yrs is still much older. People like Arya bc she's a wild fireball. She's interesting that's y people like her. Feminine women do get respect in media even more than tomboys. Her behavior may be influenced by her mom but she knew better. I doubt she even made an effort to connect with Arya.

[@rai2423]

@@themysticwarriorgal9465Feminine women do not get respect in media. They are either love interests or villains. Femininity is very disdained in western media.

[@sdzielinski]

Sansa and Jayne Poole called Arya horse face. That's indicative of the disdain Sansa felt for her. Arya was compared unfavorably to Sansa. Sansa was the perfect child. Arya was imperfect according to the norms she was required to meet. This would confirm Sansa's sense of superiority while causing Arya's resentment. Arya carried that resentment to the end of the show. She even used her martial skills to terrorize Sansa when they discussed the faceless men. The show did not make much of their conflict after season 1. But it was understandable given what had happened earlier.

[@alexnieves]

I love that you missed the entire last decade(s) of ASOIAF obsession and GoT obsession and are doing your darn best to reignite it. I send my deepest sympathy to Mr. Bookborn as he's in for an awful lot of lore and deep dives that I'm not sure he's mentally prepared for.

[@Bookborn]

Don’t mind me just weaseling my way into the discussion two decades behind pretending I’ve been here all along

[@laurablakeauthor]

😂@@Bookborn

[@trashedx]

Sansa has honestly had some of the best development/growth in the books. Hoping George pulls through for us!

[@Bookborn]

Her chapters are consistently the best too, imo, especially since she tends to be right in the middle of all of the politics

[@doomdrake123]

He ain't pulling through. The books won't be finished ever.

[@trashedx]

@@doomdrake123 even if that's the case I'm happy with the books we got :)

[@doomdrake123]

@@trashedx Yeah the cookbook is fun ☺️

[@ericseifert8145]

If you “finish” the story with the show, you really get to see Sansa’s entire arc. While I am amongst those who believe the show writers basically mailed in the last season and messed it up, I believe they were working within GRRs outline and completed everyone’s story arc the way he intended. So RAFO becomes WAFO.

[@Ohotoho]

It seriously frustrates me that these things need to be pointed out to people. Honestly, the vast majority of discourse around ASOIAF is between people who, for one reason or another, refuse to see these characters as people (Catelyn most of all). And it is *so* easy to see them as such! They are so beautifully written! It would be fun (I guess) to engage with this sort of surface-level, no-acknowledgement-of-context reading of the text every once in a while, but it is just so ubiquitous online. Jeez! I needed to get this off my chest :D Thank you for sharing your experience! It is genuinely interesting to me. Wish you all the best!

[@capgangchannel6309]

Sansa has always been one of my favorite characters, seeing the world through her eyes especially in the first book is so different from all the other people. Her magical, fairytale view of the world is exactly how an eleven year old girl would see this world. And the transition from her fairytale view to the real brutal way the world really is is always such a heartbreaking and interesting story to read. I especially love the interacts she has with the hound in the first and second books. The hound tries to make her see how the world really is and tells her that the fairytale she thinks she lives in is all a facade. Also i love how in the 3rd and 4rth books she slowly begins to get out of this fairytale way of viewing the world and becomes smarter and smarter and even starts to learn how to play the game of thrones.

[@Bookborn]

She's honestly probably the story I'm most interested to see how it unfolds in either book 4 or 5, whichever one she's in (4 I'm assuming by your comment!). The poor girl has been through so much, what NOW?!

[@Lurklen]

@@Bookborn Really great points. People forget what it is like to be a child. How deeply and intensely they want things, and how little they truly comprehend consequences of any kind. The book is in many ways about the failings of Ned Stark to truly see how the world is around him. In that way, Sansa is very much like her father, believing in the fairy tales of honour, duty, and law. He has his paper shield, she has her noble heart and ideals. They are both doomed because they can't see what is really happening (something Arya can do, or is at least learning how to do at this point). Sansa is a Stark through and through, too stubborn to break from her worldview and notice the way the landscape is changing around her. As an aside, if I might ask, what is that shirt you are wearing? I can only see the hand holding a sword, but it has piqued my curiosity.

[@vanessaamesty6739]

One thing Sansa haters don't want to admit is that she is exactly like Ned. She makes the same mistakes as him and has the same character traits but Ned is loved and Sansa is hated for it. Ned trust in Littlefinger Ned trust Varys Ned tells Cersei about his intention to tell the truth to Robert Ned disregards Renly's and Littlefingers warnings against the Lannister Ned IS Sansa. Even tho he already lived the thing that Sansa lived in the books (The killing of his father and brother by order of King Aerys) he's still believe in the system and honor, has faith in the world. Farytales and Rainbows.

[@Jonathan-ug9yu]

I went through this journey with Sansa. What’s amazing to me is how authentic Sansa reads. A girl written by George, the oldest and whitest of men

[@ryanratchford2530]

Book fans: I Hate Sansa! She's a horrible person & everything is her fault! Also Book fans: I love Tywin and Cersi...

[@Bookborn]

I had a part with that in it but decided not to stir the pot more 🤣🤣 like crazy to me how the same people who can say they loathe Sansa but Tywin is ok is wild (not that there is anything wrong loving a complicated character!! But there’s some cognitive dissonance in their reasoning lol)

[@CaptainPikeachu]

I also think the reason deep down so many folks hate her is that they know if they were in that world and in that situation, they’d be like her and they don’t like that Sansa reflects what they perceive to be their own weakness, because she doesn’t allow them to live in a power fantasy. People wanna play the flashy cool hero and Sansa’s story is ultimately that of a quietly resilient and enduring survivor. Personally, I have found that the best way to really shut people up about their Sansa hate is to have them play the Game of Thrones telltale game as the oldest sister Mira whose storyline is in King’s Landing. Because once people realize the difficulties of handling the politics and how deftly one has to be to survive, and how even they as grown ups players mess up while playing this game, they get they didn’t give 11 year old Sansa enough credit. Also you pointing out the situation with Mycah and Arya’s role in it is so important because I don’t think that point gets brought up enough in comparisons with her and Sansa. So many people just overlook this bit of hypocrisy because they hate Joffrey and think it’s cool and right that Arya should hit him without thinking about consequences.

[@Arkanyte]

I was always pretty surprised by how much hate she got. Like, maybe early chapters, Sansa, yeah... but she's just a kid who got thrust into the cruel reality of the world. And she did learn and mature, both as a character and a person. Whereas I can understand the hate in the AGOT, her hate in the rest of the series is undeserving.

[@JMH3363]

the kid point while true doesnt really hold tho because they are all kids and arya whos even younger is pretty much a fan favorite. i think most of the hate for her comes from the show anyway where her character is very annoying/ mostly helpless and then overnight turned into littlefinger 2.0. just bad writing from the showrunners

[@Arkanyte]

@@JMH3363 Sansa hate for the show in the last seasons is TOTALLY justified. THAT I will admit. But her book counterpart does not deserve it all.

[@Bookborn]

But Arya is a fan favorite for things I tried to explain at the end - I think there is bias towards her because her actions *feel* so much more modern/ or at least more attractive to modern audiences. Arya acts just as selfishly as Sansa, especially when you consider time period imo @@JMH3363

[@testcase6997]

@@BookbornArya's selfish actions include: 1. Learning how to fight. Something that hurts literally no one and that her father supports her so much in that he pays for one of the best swordsmen to train her. 2. Not enjoying sewing especially with people who bully her (Sansa and Jeyne) 3. Defending a boy who was in the process of having his face mutilated by Joffrey who promised he was about to torture the child. This "selfish" act nearly gets Arya killed by Joffrey. All of Arya's selfish acts are her hobbies which hurt no one or her being heroic and putting herself in danger to save a friend from mutilation and torture.

[@misskate3815]

The early chapters? First appearance: Arya spends an entire chapter pissing and moaning about Sansa and her friends horrible crime of sitting and chatting politely to each other, picking a fight, throwing a tantrum and blaming it all on Sansa. Next Appearance: Arya humiliates Sansa, commits treason(while Joffrey deserved some shit, he’s still the prince), then assaults Sansa before Sansa can even comment on anyone’s behaviour, then Ned murders Lady, instead of Arya’s literal killer pet. By that point we’re half way through the book. For the rest of the book, Sansa is ignored by her father, when he isn’t yelling at her, and has to deal with Arya still trying to pick fights and behave rudely. Sansa is perfectly polite to Arya at almost every encounter, until Arya’s actions lead to Lady’s death, she’s charming, she’s kind, she’s acknowledged as a smart, sweet kid. Even Ned, who treats Sansa like a doll he can play with and put down at will, acknowledged that.

[@mrfoozy47]

I saw a tumblr post that sums it up perfectly: “you think Sansa is dumb for being obsessed with stories of knights and princesses and you’re out here reading ASOIAF”

[@pekahn92]

that's funny and quite a good point. the only difference, I think, is that in her stories, the knight saves the princess and is gallant and true to her heart, while in ASOIAF the knight is usually a piece of shit who murders without question and is basically a well armored and armed crooked cop. But I do like the observation.

[@teenprez]

For sure a lot of Sansa hate comes come from internalized misogyny. It’s really sad. Sansa is one of my favorite characters, I can’t wait to see what she becomes in the future!

[@IbbyMelbourne]

What I don't understand, is when people get mad at a character for making a mistake early on that's clearly going to lead to more interesting plot lines and character growth later on. Especially when that character is an eleven year old girl

[@misternegative4918]

I never understood why people didn’t like her. I loved her and thought her story was tragic. She goes through so much and as the story goes on she grows so much.

[@m3driver245]

I think Sansa is both sympathetic and unlikeable. Both feelings can coexist. I’ve never liked her character but I have sympathy for the positions she’s in.

[@pickettmandi]

She betrayed her father.

[@Glexzy]

how@@pickettmandi

[@pickettmandi]

@@Glexzy she blatantly told Cersi his plans to return the girls to Winterfell.

[@moona3206]

​@@pickettmandiAnd ? Cersei was already against him because he knew about the incest

[@juancho8265]

They tend to forget many things that happened in those moments prior to Ned's death, but something very important that is not taken into account is that nobody, NO ONE really wanted Ned's death, for the simple fact that it was not convenient for them to kill him, they It was better to remove him from the game board by sending him to the wall, not killing him. It was all joffrey's fault. Without him, even with the fact that Sansa screwed up, there would be no death, just sent to the wall. Always on Sansa's side, I love her

[@xavicu8150]

I saw once a video about Sansa being the most relatable character in the whole asoiaf series bc of her love and idealistic pov on fairytales and that the fans hatred to her was truly the most hypocritic trait of them. It was something like that but maaan, so damn right. Amazing video!

[@CarrCab]

I know the video you're talking about, or I've seen one that came to a similar conclusion. Sansa is a lover of fantasy novels pretty much, the character closest to the viewer in that way. She loves the fantasy stories she's been told, just like we love and obsess over this fantasy story. And yet the fanbase overwhelmingly hated Sansa, the one character who, like us, enjoys stories of that period of knights and lords and queens.

[@elijahlavigne7596]

Such a funny and creative intro!! Instantly liked before even having to hear any of the brilliant points you make in Sansa’s defense😆

[@PhosPhryne]

The difference between how Arya and Sansa is treated by the fandom can be summed up with misogyny. Arya is more boy like and masculine, while Sansa is more girly and feminine.

[@PhosPhryne]

I wrote this before I finished the video. Glad you agree.

[@CCEkeke]

Maybe the fact that Sansa betrayed her father to the people who killed her wolf is why many fans hated her.

[@PhosPhryne]

@@CCEkeke you are legitimately stupid if you think that is what happened. Jesus Christ.

[@SoCalSon395]

Light spoilers up to A Storm of Swords: I can get not finding Sansa all that fun in the first book since she's still pretty delusional about the harsh reality of the world, but if you ask me she's consistently one of the best POVs from really the second half of AGoT through the rest of the series. The way she puzzles out the subtleties of her situation is always so fascinating and the constant misfortune she runs into makes it so you can't help but sympathize with her as a child hostage who's had to watch her family be destroyed by her captors and then is expected to thank them and tell them they were right to do it. Imo she's at her best in books 2 and 3, when she's in King's Landing and navigating who she can and can't trust. The scene where she gets the first letter from Dontos and is terrified that it could be a trap is awesome, as is the one where Tyrion rescues her and she outsmarts him so she can go back to her quarters to keep sneaking out to the godswood at night. These little acts of resistance always feel so powerful, and the way she keeps running into adversity despite that only makes me root for her to get out and get home that much more. And then in Storm when she marries Tyrion, you get to see where the fandom splits because Tyrion is such a popular character and Sansa really doesn't like him, justifiably so when you consider he's her captor, but I think a lot of readers don't like Sansa just because she doesn't like their favorite character. It's also just a common pattern for ASOIAF readers to not like a lot of the female characters (other than Arya), I guess because they're not as cool, but I think a lot of times their social status leaves them to be a lot more internally interesting, which makes them stand out even more on a reread.

[@pushista9322]

Yes, about that. When I read chapters about Tyrion and Sansa's brief marriage, I was appalled by Tyrion's inability to start any small talk with her. That's when I fully realized how fandom idealised Tyrion because of Dinklage's charisma. In the books Tyrion is painfully aware of his ugliness and he's a walking knot of nerves and trauma. So when Sansa doesn't develop attraction for him in the first few hours (!!!) he totally gives up and adopts a passive attitude instead of actively planning to get her and himself out of this snake den of Kingslanding as soon as possible. He could totally win her over by discussing his trip to the Wall, his relationship with Joffrey, for god's sake, their shared interest in books! He could have led Sansa to the library, found her a great maester to teach her something, taken her to the Citadel for a visit. And of course he should have slept with her right away, because that was the only way to get in Tywin's good graces and achieve that freedom to leave KL. And this character is specifically praised by the fandom for being witty and empathetic. His interaction with Sansa really showed how traumatized Tyrion had been by Tywin and how he self-sabotaged all along.

[@SoCalSon395]

@@pushista9322 I think something that a lot of readers miss with Tyrion is that's it's not so much his intelligence that defines him but rather his ego. He assumes himself to be smarter than everyone around him and doesn't make much effort to understand what they're thinking or feeling beyond what that information can do for him in the immediate moment. It's no coincidence that all the people he epically owned in A Clash of Kings come back out of the woodworks to condemn him as a murderer in A Storm Of Swords, he makes a ton of enemies, usually just because he's inconsiderate. He also literally thinks when Tywin offers him Sansa that he wants her physically and for her castle, so everything Sansa thinks about Tyrion still being another Lannister is more or less confirmed by where his mind goes. And I think part of that is how the show runners chose to sand off Tyrion's edges, because George seems to think Dinklage was the perfect casting choice and there are definitely moments in the show where you see book Tyrion come out of his performance, but Tyrion is funny and it's easy to get pulled into that and not remember or want to show his darker side. Most people don't even realize he's been so egotistical until book 5 because by then there's very little redeeming about him.

[@pushista9322]

@@SoCalSon395 Fortunately, Dinklage won't worry about these differences too much... "In 2014, he said on The Late Show with David Letterman that he had once tried to read the books the show is based upon, but had found them confusing."

[@SoCalSon395]

@@pushista9322 him and most everyone else who worked on that show lol, we know why George left

[@schizoidahole]

Not even through the whole series and you have more of an understanding of it than people who have read it multiple times. This video is perfect.

[@katlikesgibbon20]

PETYR BAELISH IS BEGGING FOR HIS RECOGNITION!!! I think the fandom at large is forgetting Petyr Baelish’s responsibility in order to justify their horrid misogynist views towards Sansa. Petyr and Joffrey are the only ones responsible Ned’s death. I would also like to add that after Ned tells Sansa they’re leaving, her going to Cersei isn’t her trying to say goodbye to Joffrey (though that’s her rational.) Sansa sees leaving as the end for her dreams, to be tapped in Winterfell with a father who has consistently failed her for the entire book. I love Ned’s character by the way, but I like to look at everything in their relationship from her POV since she’s the one with less power. It’s in the text that Ned; refused to fight to save Lady’s life (which he later regrets realizing the wolves were sent to protect his children,) he never consoles his daughter in her grief (this is emotional neglect) or tells her that surrounded by dangerous actors, fosters negative environment between his daughters because of his obvious favoritism towards Arya and Sansa’s resentment of that, snaps at her a few times, and then he tells her that she’s leaving regardless of her wants and refuses to tell her why. Sansa going to Cersei isn’t her betraying her father, it’s the narrative consequence of Ned failing his daughter and treating Sansa as a pawn (he was the first one to treat her as a pawn btw.)

[@Bookborn]

Ok you’re so valid for this we do need to start including Petyr in all of this. I’m still not sure I’ve fully processed the WILD info we learn about him at the end of ASOS 😭😭😭

[@midorisour2844]

I think we need to add Robert to the list as well. I blame him 100% for Lady’s death. Stick up for your friend, Robert!

[@katlikesgibbon20]

⁠@@midorisour2844 I agree with you that Robert was undoubtedly responsible for Lady’s death since it’s Robert (not Cersei or Ned) who held ultimate power. Though it’s my perspective that it’s less Robert didn’t stick up for Ned, but more Ned didn’t stick up for Sansa. Robert just wanted to be done with this whole situation, and it was Cersei, not Ned, who was more insistent determining Lady’s fate. It’s heartbreaking that Ned didn’t try to leverage his friendship with Robert for his daughter’s sake and that this leads to his regret regarding Lady later.

[@midorisour2844]

@@katlikesgibbon20 True. I wonder if Ned wanted to support Sansa. I felt like Ned really didn't have the power to stand up to Robert. Ned didn't even seem all the interested in becoming the hand of the king in the first place but I don't think he was able to say no. When he finally does stand up to Robert, Robert freaks out and threatens him. I find it interesting that people criticize Sansa for being naive when so many of the adults are just as naive! I mean, Robert led a violent rebellion, took the throne, and then realized that being king is not exciting. Talk about naive. That being said, I love all of these characters so much, including Robert. 😆

[@testcase6997]

No one is forgetting LF being the main villain lol. You're doing this pedantic thing of "um you can't blame the loss of the football game on our team's wide receiver dropping every pass. you do know the other team was trying to score points right?" yeah we know LF is evil, we're criticizing the failures of our own "team" or the protagonists. There's no need to state the obvious that the bad guy is bad.

[@helenrose5383]

Ned was lowkey emotionally unavailable, Sansa instead seek it in Cersei who was 'attentive'. Ned doesn't sit with Sansa and make her aware of how things are going down- both girls are isolated in King's Landing.

[@ВоробьёваАлиса-я4э]

Yeah, I checked the chronological order, Sansa had been histericly desperate about their departure for 3 full days, refused to eat, said to Ned in no uncertain terms that he thinks that his decision is horribly unfair, ASKED for un explanation, acted like a child in desperate need of comfort and reassurance and after three days when she got only neglect and offence of different treatment for Arya she went to Cersei

[@helenrose5383]

@@ВоробьёваАлиса-я4э Exactly...

[@armaniscat]

THANK YOU! I always found it *ridiculous* how the fandom blames Sansa for Ned's death. And I always thought this Sansa hate stems from (internalized) misogyny. Period

[@liiliies_]

Thank you!! This needed to be said! Plus, it's Ned's fault for: 1) Confronting Cersei so openly, before ensuring his daughters' safety; 2) he brought his daughters at court, without their lady in waiting to offer them support and council. No noble maiden ever went to court without a proper entourage to support her! The only figure Sansa and Arya had was the Septa who treated them with contempt and even got drunk and left Sansa without protection, and Ned was nowhere to be found! In comparison to Margaery, it becomes crystal clear that Ned didn't prepare his daughters to court properly. That wasn't Winterfell. That was King's Landin court, a place where he didn't have his own men. Margaery is constantly followed by family and other noble girls who are part of her noble entourage, which has the aim to support and provide council. Arya and Sansa were left to fend for themselves. Septa Mordaine failed at doing her job un multiple occasions: let Littlefinger get close to Sansa, didn't notice Arya went out of her room and didn't even bother to look for her, got drunk at the banquet and Sansa would have had to walk to the castle alone, unguarded at night, if it weren't for the Hound. There's so much to say about this! I hope you'll also do a video about Arya's insecurity (she's not as beautiful as Sansa or her mother, and skilled as them in the feminine arts, so she feels she is inadequate to fulfill her feminine role, so she tries to embody a masculine role as a result?), and a Catelyn one (let's just note how well dhe navigates politics? Since her father was ill, and her brother young, she was the one running things and understsnding all the political factions and implications). I can't tolerate any Catelyn slander 😭💔

[@jazwhoaskedforthis]

YES. Thank you.

[@downwardsaerial2239]

Im a male with stereotypically male interests and i found sansas chapters to be much more riveting and subtle than aryas

[@LuizVieiraPintoNeto]

Oh wow. So fun to watch someone go through all the phases I went when I read the books. I am loving this. Such nostalgia of my first time reading the Song.

[@Bookborn]

lmao yes I wanted to acknowledge in the beginning that it's slightly embarrassing I'm going through the emotions everyone went through a solid decade or more ago but HERE WE ARE.

[@josh10722]

I never understood the hate she got, even in the show. Sansa is a child that adapts to her horrible situation to survive as best she can. even in the show, where in later seasons she can be a bit frustrating, people need to realize she is a victim in many respects and is not deserving of the hate she gets. side note, Sophie Turner is a qt, and the fandom hating Catelyn as they do says all we have to know about their biases edit: not only does the fandom excuse SA victimizers by quoting the time period, they go out of their way to not justify SA victims actions, which is perhaps the most annoying part of it.

[@donttalktomebye]

Sansa is a child, a child who believes in the stories she has been told, and a lot of people hate little girls. she's literally just a stereotypical little girl. plenty of people are just like her when they were kids. they really forget she's a whole pre pubescent, but also targeted misogyny doesnt start at any specific age unfortunately Many people who read the books lack reading comprehension or just comprehension of women.

[@711freerunner]

I've read through the series multiple times now. Last winter I started a book club at work and we read through game of thrones. I was surprised at how much people hated Sansa. I think as time goes on its easier to look back and realize how great of a character she is and not at all to blame for these deaths, especially as you get further in the books. Im glad you came to these conclusions so quickly, but with your real world experiences you explain, I can see why. P.S. you should read for an audio book

[@Bookborn]

I'm not a huge audio book person 😭 I really struggle focusing when I'm listening, so I think I'd vastly prefer just reading it physically. Maybe I could try listening on a reread when I already know the main stuff

[@weepingscorpion8739]

@@BookbornI think they meant that you should record one, not listen to one. And yes, I would agree with that suggestion.

[@Bookborn]

@@weepingscorpion8739oh LMAO you are right! That’s so funny, several people have told me that since starting my channel but I feel like my voice is the worst 😂

[@weepingscorpion8739]

@@Bookborn Oh, trust me, your voice is very pleasant to listen to. So I encourage you to at least consider it. :)

[@pushista9322]

Oh my, a book club at work! Where do you work?

[@SarahAsYouWish]

Having read all of the ASOIAF novels for the first time this year and having never watched the show, I am loving your videos about your thoughts on these books. I think you are spot on in your assessment of Sansa and why she receives such unwarranted hate from some fans. She really is a wonderful representation of what a girl in her position is expected to be, and that garners her no love.

[@Bookborn]

AH someone else who is reading them for the first time!! Glad I'm not alone here 😂

[@pockysoups]

I read ASOIAF for the first time this year too!! It feels so strange being a new fan to such an old fandom lol

[@songoku7530]

@@BookbornSansa deserved all the hate she got

[@limbus66]

I'm a 28 year old guy, I got into the series a couple of years ago. The Sansa chapters are my favourite in the series, especially book one, I've never understood why people don't like them. They're the ones that most harshly confront the massive gap between the stories the world (both ours and theirs) tells about itself and its values, and what those values actually are, which I really love.

[@MadManManderly]

7:37 This is an excellent point. I am from Britain and recently meant the King. It was only a brief moment, but my whole family were awestruck and we were something like local celebrities for a few weeks. And this is now, when the king holds no real power and I am not really a monarch so the feeling is magnified a hundred fold.

[@StarOfRaven]

I think you're spot on. Sansa is the most naive and girly character (at least in the beginning). Most other female characters in the books are either fighters or manipulators/players of the game. Maybe that's why people also don't like Catlyn. She's also very feminine and is often thinking about what her role as a woman and a mother is. Both Eddard and Catlyn make big mistakes in the first book just like Sansa. It's such a frustrating but good read.

[@yinkam7902]

it's so funny when ppl hate sansa for loving fairytales and stories of knights and heroes...yet we're here bc we love a story with knights and heroes

[@drukshay]

I was on Sansa's side when I that book. I thought Arya was a brat.

[@samkar2212]

After reading the first book is crazy😭😭

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

Blaming Sansa for Ned's death is about the most idiotic thing ever when her telling Cersei likely had no impact on events whatsoever, since Ned was attempting the worst coup d'etat in history and putting his trust in Littlefinger while refusing to heed his advice, and of course Ned himself had already told Cersei everything, giving her all the advance notice she needed. Ned all but killed himself with his own political ineptitude

[@smallbudoo]

Sansa isn't innocent but she isn't the main causing factor. She definitely played a part and even Cersei says she wouldn't have known Sansa and Arya were leaving if she hadn't had told her.

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

@@smallbudoo Well yeah, but that has nothing to do with killing Ned, it's just that securing Sansa as a hostage otherwise wouldn't have been possible. Ned had no intention of going anywhere himself, and thus things for him would likely have played out more or less the same either way

[@smallbudoo]

And also, the fact that she only knew of Ned's intentions because Sansa and Arya were being fled from King's landing a day before the King's coronation. I would have to re-read the chapter but I'm pretty sure it's something along those lines. And also, it's only known that Petyr got Cersei the Gold cloaks, it's never said he told Cersei about Ned's intentions.@@whensomethingcriesagain

[@whensomethingcriesagain]

@@smallbudoo Ned told her his intentions himself before Robert even died. Cersei isn't the brightest bulb, but she's not so stupid as to think Ned would do nothing just because Robert was dead, and Littlefinger explicitly bringing the Goldcloaks to her side pretty well says exactly what Ned was planning

[@smallbudoo]

Let me reread the chapter and I'll come back to you@@whensomethingcriesagain

[@constantlycriminal8630]

You changed my mind, honestly. I never hated Sansa, nor blame her for Ned's death. I felt very strongly she betrayed him, but you pointed out the courage it took to ask for a pardon. Which is very true! Also I'm was wrong in thinking that she was naive. She had no reason to think Ned would go anywhere other than the wall. Plus I'm sure Ned didn't blame her, I know Jon didnt, Arya did but she blamed Sansa for everything anyway.

[@ikiebrooks6863]

I love your take on masculine vs feminine traits in kids. So relatable and like you said, you never know what a kid is going to like. Just loved the whole conversation!

[@schrubber98]

I relate SO much to Sansa… being the good girl can be very lonely because you always seem to“fine“ and your parents assume you know they love you by default but never explicitly show you any extra attention. Whenever there is a conflict between something you as the „good girl“ want and something someone else (like an unruely sibling) wants you always gotta be the stronger one and give up the thing you want, never the other way around… I can see this pain/ neglect seep out of everything Sansa says and almost in all her thoughts… But no one ever seems to acknowledge it or help her. She seems integrated well and „doing well“ but in truth she is always lonely, resentful and scared and for good reason I get it on such a deep level its kinda painful

[@jameshenry9894]

I've been ASOIAF fan since about 2014, and ALWAYS felt like Sansa was an underappreciated character. I thought one of the things the show got right (even up to the ending), was her arc as someone who made major mistakes, whether they're forgivable or not, and rose above them to far greater heights. Also Sophie Turner absolutely OWNED the role. I don't know how anyone who read the books and then watched the show who doesn't immediately picture Turner when reading Sansa's chapters. Thank you for the video Bookborn!

[@jameshenry9894]

Also I must say, Bookborn is one of the most important literary analysts in the KZbin community. Her academically driven approach is 🔥Keep kickin' ass and takin' names Bookborn! You are awesome.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Sansa is one of my favourite characters (along with Daenerys and Stannis) and I never understood why people saw her as spoiled. If anything Arya is the one who's spoiled, the one who doesn't behave like a normal person and keeps getting away with it. Did Sansa get Ned killed? No. Yes, her actions did lead to that, but there was no way she could have anticipated Ned would die over it. Let's be real, all of us book readers and show watchers were equally stunned Ned died. We didn't see it coming, so why should she? In fact, no one saw it coming except for Joffrey and maybe Littlefinger. Cersei herself legit believed Ned would be sent to the wall in disgrace and that would be it. If you look at the show scene, you see Cersei protest against Joffrey's order to execute Ned. It seems to me they all had an agreement to send Ned to the wall and Joffrey changed his mind right then and there on a whim (which is something he often does: inflict pain on others on a whim, without prior planning). Then Ned himself placed himself in a dangerous position: his fights with the Lannisters, him telling Cersei he knows her secret, him changing Robert's will, him trusting Littlefinger and the Gold Cloaks. I mean... mistakes were made and none of these were Sansa's fault. Furthermore, she didn't make Littlefinger and the Gold Cloaks betray Ned. Others also made their decisions and acted on them. And it's not like Ned could have sneaked out of King's Landing with his entire staff considering all the spies everyone had. Catelyn Stark didn't even get to King's Landing when she went South and everyone already knew she was on her way. So how would Ned slip out unnoticed with everyone watching him?

[@kcin3288]

Thank you. I remember being so surprised when Martin said something about his readers never forgiving Sansa. I was like why her? It was Ned's honor that led to his death, just like it does Robb's later on. If you blame 11 yr old Sansa for trusting Cersei then you really should be blaming an adult Ned for trusting Littlefinger who even tells him not to trust him. Don't forget he gives Cersei advance warning that he knew of the incest and then gives her time to retaliate instead of arresting her. Ned makes mistake after mistake in the name of honor. Still RIP Ned

[@Bookborn]

ugh RIP Ned until the end of the world, I love him so much, but like...yeah he makes so many mistakes, Ned gets Ned killed 😭

[@m3driver245]

I feel you guys are a bit “try hard” in defending Sansa. Of course Ned made some critical errors but you are also ignoring Sansa’s direct role here. She DELIBERATELY went against Ned’s wishes when she went to the queen. Being 11 doesn’t mean she has no agency, you can forgive that decision but it’s still a decision she made. She’s an 11 year old in a world where people are almost considered adults at 13-14. You’re putting too much of a modern world view here. I think Sansa as a character is sympathetic and also unlikeable. Unlike Arya who’s extremely immature as well but is likeable because people see her story and her efforts being about more than herself. She constantly in her chapters worrying about her family and trying to find a way back to them. That is not true for Sansa. If I remember correctly we even get a line from Sansa where she admits to even asking about the well-being of her own sister…that says a lot. And I don’t recall her ever following up and asking about Arya once she finally remembered that she exists.

[@pushista9322]

​​@@m3driver245 Sansa only betrayed Ned after he betrayed her twice, and he was her father, not the other way around. 1) He gave her away to a family of murderers, to the best of his knowledge. 2) He put her in the position where she had to testify against her future husband. And then he killed her pet direwolf. By the time Sansa went to Cersei Ned had already disowned Sansa twice.

[@jamiecoleman773]

Ned's honour doesn't kill him. Ned had a plan. He is a battle commander. It's his wife that ruins his plans. Cat captures tryion instead of doing what Ned tells her. She was meant to go back north and get the north ready for war. Instead, her actions directly resulted in Ned getting injured and lucky Jamie himself didn't kill Ned himself.

[@pushista9322]

@@jamiecoleman773 Yes, exactly so

[@snackpackets]

You have such a refreshing point of view in this fandom and I adore your videos! I love my girl Sansa, thank you for defending her.

[@awsome182]

Sansa has always been my favourite character, in both books and tv show. Because she's the only one who's reacting realistically to everything happening around her. We all want to be heroic as Robb and Jon and Ned and Arya, but tbh, we all would be pretty much acting like a Sansa. And yet she was able to survive everything in her own unique way. She made mistakes, but she was a child and the issue was that a) Ned didn't tell her what was going on and b) she thought herself in love with Joffrey, so obviously she thought she did the right thing in "betraying" her family (I don't think she actually betrayed her family, in fact she wanted to save her father, but Littlefinger and Cersei manipulated and lied to her). I always loved her chapters in the books (while despising the later Dany chapters and especially the Quentin chapters 🤮). Considering the tv show and the approach they took with her (giving her the plotline of Jayne Poole), her ending was the only one I was satisfied with and that felt natural and right to her ark.

[@christina9725]

Another thing to point out, Ned already talked to Cersei about what he knew - about her children being bastards, not Robert's, and the product of incest. The other people investigating and discovering that were John Arryn and Stannis. John died mysteriously and Stannis fled King's Landing. Do you really think that Cersei would have allowed Ned to live after those dangerous accusations? She said she would have sent him to the wall, but would it have been smart to allow him to even reach the North, where he was a Warden and Lord and mostly well-loved by his people? His house also has connections with other major houses - the Arryns and the Tullys, and with the accusations against the legitimacy of Cersei's children, the Baratheons wouldn't have been on her side either. That is a lot of major houses right there that would side with the Starks and against the Crown. We also know in Cersei chapters that she is insane. All that came directly from Sansa telling her father's plan was Sansa being imprisoned. Ned was dead as soon as he warned Cersei to leave King's Landing before he told Robert that her children were not legitimate. To Cersei, Ned was now a threat.

[@r.beeeee]

THIS, people blame sansa for Ned's death and conveniently forget that ned was the first one to run to cersei.

[@christopherjager4924]

I think a lot of the Sansa hate stems from that fact she is conventionally beautiful and self-absorbed. We are quick to judge women with these traits for any perceived transgression, both in fiction and in real life. It's definitely unfair.

[@ianhruday9584]

One thing that's important is that none of Ned's kids have the political education to deal with what's coming. Rob is better equipped, but Sansa is intentionally very sheltered. More than honor or anything, Ned's character is defined by his desire to protect children, especially his children, and he makes the intentional choice to keep them in the dark about certain things. This is especially true of Sansa and Arya. At the beginning of the novel, Bran and the other boys watch Ned execute a man; it's part of their education. Arya and Sansa are left behind at Winterfell in the sewing circle. Sansa learns propriety, but she doesn't really know what's at stake. They haven't been prepared for the court in Kings Landing. For comparison, Margaery Tyrell - who is older than Sansa, is definitely prepared for court politics. As a southern lady, there was both more necessity and opportunity for her to learn the ins and outs of intrigue, and she has a much better understanding of how her family relates to other noble houses. In the early chapters, we can see that Ned actively avoids speaking against the Lannisters in front of his kids, and in the later chapters he tells them that they are in danger, but not why. He takes care not to expose them to things that would upset them. A particularly notable example is in Ned's POV chapter when he sends the knights to execute Gregor Clegane, and we hear from his internal monologue that he regrets that Sansa is in the gallery watching. I partly agree that Sansa is supposed to have fantasies about knights and honor, but part of her naivety is also unusual. Moreover, it's a direct result of Ned's desire to protect her from harsh truths.

[@autje1970]

Sansa's naivete leads to her to be too trusting of people, and her growth in character throughout the story is in learning who is deserving of her trust and who is not.

[@Bookborn]

Exactly, EXACTLY 💯💯

[@lorigarry5585]

I don't like how she talks to Septa Mordane, or how she thinks of Jeyne Poole, Micah, and Jon

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

@@lorigarry5585 and I suppose your thoughts about everyone were perfectly fair and kind when you were 11?

[@testcase6997]

@@thing_under_the_stairsI'm sorry, you're giving excuses and reasons why she is a bad person. You're not countering the idea that she did do those things.

[@testcase6997]

Right now she is helping littlefinger poison her cousin lol.

[@chelscara]

I remember the first time I tried to watch the show, and I was so upset about Sansa “getting Lady killed” I had to stop watching. I was 13. When I started rewatching the show at 20, I felt so bad for her. Sansa was a child, she didn’t know what was going to happen. She was doing what she was literally raised to do. When I started reading the series, her chapters quickly became some of my favorites as she had such an interesting and eventually tragic perspective. One thing that really stood out to me with her was that out of everyone, she was the only one tortured 24/7. What I mean is, every other Stark is out of Kings Landing, and they either have pleasant or wolf dreams , like they are being protected by the Old Gods in some way, even if small. Sansa, stuck in the Godswood-less south, only has nightmares until she gets away with Little Finger.

[@shytguy]

Martin basically takes apart the fairytale princess/prince courtship archetype with Sansa’s POV chapters. It goes from a classic fairytale in Sansa’s mind, to a brutal, feudalistic, abusive experience for her. It’s really sad. She gets manipulated, physically and mentally abused by Joffrey and his kingsguard, basically molested by Pycelle, and made a prisoner all because she had innocent, childish, lofty ambitions that any highborn daughter would have. I don’t blame Sansa. Do I wish she would have been a more appreciative daughter, but she’s pre teen girl who’s been told she’s going to be queen someday.

[@titans1fan93]

0:45 the most aggressive “hey nerds” bookborn ever done 😂

[@SonOfMana100]

Seeing people in the comments still blaming Sansa as if they lack listening comprehension LOL but lovely video

[@TheThezenith]

I think the hate of Cat and Sansa are largely from a vocal minority. I think people who do hate these characters really just misunderstand the books. Or it could just be first impressions bias perhaps, you get that scene with her being so cruel to Jon very early on in Book 1, I asked my mum who naturally would understand motherhood more than me, what she thought about Cat and that scene, and she stayed angry and upset at Jon for a longtime afterwards, not hating her but just really disliking her behaviour towards him. Also there is a fairly major ASoIaF theory and analysis channel, Order of the Green Hand who made like five 30 minute videos hilariously nitpicking every little thing Cat does to justify hating her, which is odd. Though Sansa is even stranger because I couldnt fathom why people genuinely blame her, its hilariously obvious that her story is a tragedy, that she was manipulated and used.

[@nathanielanderson6356]

I often found myself forgetting how young some of the characters were. I think because they found themselves in such mature situations I may have aged them up in my mind. Sansa is 11 and in that first book acts like an 11 year old. Did she handle things perfectly? Absolutely not, but neither neother did I at 11 and the stakes were much lower for me. I also wasn't surrounded by people trying to use me for political gain. Sansa had more on her plate than anyone ever should to say nothing of an 11 year old. The intro got me to laugh, that was pretty awesome.

[@MarieCurtis92]

When I first read the books (I've never seen the HBO series), I too kept unconsciously aging Sansa up do to some of the more mature elements of her chapters. Had the same problem with Dany too. I also kept forgetting that Brienne is only nineteen or eighteen years old.

[@jenn9027]

You got me thinking of my childhood, I was very much a Sansa, pink room, i still imagine myself as a princess in a fantastical world. But as i started getting older, i was more praised for being good in science and math, and started losing my femininity. I joined the military, so very much more Arya traits. Pretty much trying to balance the 2 now is incredibly difficult because this world is very centered on masculine, which in a woman seems to intimidate guys. Since so many women are praised for being in their masculine energies, we end up being inauthentic, we compete like guys instead of supporting each other. I got into a debate online with another woman who said we're only supposed to have kids, that's all we're good for. While not knowing any of my experiences, course that set me off and she should be incredibly glad it wasnt a face-to-face debate, I have a lot of rage that I bottle up, never know what I'll do around idiots.

[@mechistarvily5078]

I read ASOIAF when I was 13 and i immediately fell in love with Sansa and defended all her actions. We were almost the same age so I felt a lot in common with her, now I'm 20 and still on her side💓

[@pushista9322]

I'm so surprised when people read ASOIAF so young! Did you find it overly long? Were some historical parts annoying? Did you find gore and sex scenes disturbing?

[@mechistarvily5078]

@@pushista9322 not at all 😂 I was fully in love with this book, it completely changed my tastes! I was super calm while reading cruel scenes. There were a lot of plot parts that I didn't get the first time and understood way later after rereading 👌

[@kafei-creme]

One thing people forget when they go "Arya was a child too but she wasnt so stupid duuuh" is that....Sansa dreamt of fairytales all her life. Arya liked swords. Sansa finally was in the world of her dreams, of course she panicked and did everything she could to keep her dream alive. If they went into a knight paradise instead without an evil queen but an evil knight, it would have been Arya who would have "betrayed". I dont remember in the books but in the show the first thing she asks is if they can bring Syrio with them. Arya would have still kept what she wanted, but Sansa would have lost everything. As much as I like Arya, she's no better than Sansa and both were naive children who shouldnt be hated for their mistakes, and Ill die on that hill

[@WatashiMachineFullCycle]

Literally the opening scene is me FOR REAL LMFAOOOOO I will never understand why people hate Sansa. She's a child, she has no power and she's just thrown around and used as a pawn. How the hell are you gonna say an 11 year old girl is responsible for the actions of the monarchy???? Wild to me Also, I feel like people grossly misinterpreted the relationship between Sansa and her siblings, especially Jon and Arya. I blame the show for this, since they laid it on really thick, and the show really stripped Arya of a lot of her vulnerability and loneliness in favour of preparing the audience for her being an assassin or whatever. Literally anybody on the planet earth who has siblings should be able to read these passage and reminisce about stupid fights they had as children. Even her exchange in Arya's first chapter "Poor Jon, he gets jealous because he's a bastard" doesn't really strike me as Sansa loving Jon any less (I'm technically a bastard myself, and I've had similar tiffs with my siblings about it as a child. It hurts at the time, but kids don't even really understand what the heck they're saying when they do stuff like that)

[@reaver1414]

People do blame Arya for Micah's death.... including Arya herself, she feels very guilty about it.

[@nekoppachi]

1st, it's totally true that Sansa wouldn't have had the fortitude to survive Arya's experiences & Arya wouldn't have had the patience or tact to even come close to surviving Sansa's. 2nd, one has to feel that Arya was intentionally written to appeal to our modern sensibilities. Even when she's being prickly & grating, she's basically hate-proof. And, finally, there is a reverse term for tomboy, but it's intent is completely derogatory, whereas tomboy is neutral, "femboy." If 'femboys' weren't a thing then we shouldn't have had Prince & the world would be worse for it.

[@testcase6997]

Arya easily would have survived what Sansa went through. What part do you think she wouldn't have been able to do?

[@madalynnr9940]

People who are upset with Sansa being mean to Arya in the beginning of the book probably believe Lady being killed was the first time Sansa was punished for Aryas actions

[@abhishekbaburaj1105]

Oh...were there other instances as well..?

[@madalynnr9940]

@@abhishekbaburaj1105 not directly in the books but they are alluded to. I believe Sansa has a line along the lines of how she will be punished because it is her responsibility as the older sister to keep Arya in line. It's why Sansa tries so hard to be perfect and why she is so bitter about Ayras misbehavior

[@TheRealZeke2003]

Sansa was punished for her own actions

[@RonanXI]

Ned’s losing his head, rests entirely on his shoulders

[@scarecrown7s]

It seems that Sansa and Ned are more alike than we think. Sansa has a fairytale like world view of brave knights saving the day, Ned believes that honor, honesty, and justice will win out. Littlefinger was right when he told Sansa "Life is not a song" but it's to late when they both finally realize it.

[@mirayoquese8608]

Awesome vid, great insight and you make the super complex analysis of themes and characters in ASOIF look easy with how good you explain your points. That last part of the vid really got me. I'm addicted to your ASOIF journey, can't wait for your Feast/Dance reviews. And obviously, if you do more vids like this one (I believe Catelyn deserves a lot of defense as well) that would be top. Either way, keep going!

[@angelfieseler5358]

I agree I never understood the hate of Catelynn

[@Bookborn]

Thank you so much!! I'm going to probably read the Dunk and Egg stories in Jan and then Feast in Feb! Although maybe I'll move it up...I've already purchased Feast in excitement lol Catelyn has been requested so much in the comments of this video lol so I'll for sure have to do a video on her at some point, although it won't be quite as easy as the Sansa defense video, despite the fact that I love her

[@ethanbrown4167]

i am also in love with your journey and am super happy to see you get into the world of ice and fire. i only got into it last year and have been loving your vids on it. i am also a defender of cat and sansa, tho in the sansa arya race arya will win out for me because sansa and jeyne pool were such bullies to arya in book 1. @@Bookborn

[@iris-xo]

i think anyone sane and with good comprehension skills can realize sansa is not a bad person, realizing the situation, her age, etc. it’s common sense also i think ppl especially men refuse to consider women characters who embrace their femininity and “role” in a sense are not good characters or “strong” it’s sad we still deal with that in 2023, now 2024. sansa’s resilience & ability to adapt is incredibly strong especially when u remember her age. her taking pride in the history, appearance, etc. benefits her in the long run and that’s why she can survive in the capital while someone like arya could not… i think older people can sympathize with sansa even more, especially people who can relate to her situation of being trapped in a sense, whether it’s in a relationship, environment, etc. like i’ve always been able to relate to sansa cuz i’ve experience her situation in a different way in my own life

[@SecretSickle89]

Dafuq I had no idea this opinion about Sansa was even a thing. I know she annoys some fans but honestly Ned sealed his fate as soon as he spoke to Cersei. I remember reading game of thrones for the first time (not knowing anything) and thinking it’s a bit stupid telling her that. Ned is a fool for causing a series of events that lead his family to death and ruin, and Sansa was just one of many victims to feel it.

[@MarieCurtis92]

I wish I could give this video a hundred more likes!!! I honestly think another element at play here concerning the insane amount of hate characters like Sansa and Catelyn get (in addition to internalized misogyny) is because of the values they specifically embody. Being largely traditional, religious, conservative women. These things are often, and sadly, seen as bad and or backwards by many of ASOIAF fans. Plus, there is the projection of ill feelings tainting reader bias. I can't even being to count the times I've seen/heard people say they hate Catelyn simply because she reminds them of their own mother or that Sansa reminds them of the girls who may have bullied them in high school. Arya is a lot more relatable to readers because she's an insecure tomboy who fears she'll never be good enough. She's intimidated by beautiful, powerful, feminine women like her mother; and is envious of her sister's grace. This is why Arya doesn't like or trust Cersei. It's not because she sees her for the monster she truly is. Arya is nine years old, she's not mature. She's a child. Every bit as spoiled and as privileged as her sister.

[@erikzetterberg8856]

Rereading ASoIF as an adult it became a lot more clear to me that Sansa is fighting for her life in a courtly setting just as much as a lot of characters are fighting in the wilderness or on the battlefeild. I think aging her up in the show (no hate on Sophie Turner, she killed it) makes people forgot that Sansa has close to no agency due to her age and gender. Great video, you hit the nail on the head.

[@Allystargirl]

They aged up a LOT of characters, particularly female ones, for the series, for obvious reasons, but I think that creative choice did lead to people forgetting just how NIAVE and small their world views where. Like with Daenerys, even in the show one her MAIN character flaws, her literal fatal flaw, is her naïveté, inserting herself as a ruler in places and things that she doesn’t fully understand yet, and then being unable to foresee/ fully understand why she can’t make a kingdom stick, by just coming in, and imposing her own views on ruling and running a kingdom on people who’s cultures/ values/ lives have looked and where different than hers for CENTURIES before she came in and rocked the places. I think in that same vein, People forget how powerless Sansa was. How her diligently sticking to what she knows as a noble lady, is what kept her alive, and chugging on through the horrors. It’s a MIRACLE Arya made it as far as she did acting like she did. These were LITERALLY KIDS. Danny was like 13 years old when she was married off in the books. Sansa was 11 when she was thrown to the lions in the south with her family.

[@WildeMermaid]

Love everything you pointed out in this video. There is definitely a part of this fandom that unfairly hate on & blame Sansa for things well beyond her control as a child! She was incredibly sheltered, so young, & as such easily manipulated at first. She was 100% a product of her upbringing. There was so much she didn't know, that we all did. People hate her because she is the quintessential young feminine girl fairytale character. She did the little bit she could with what very little power she was perceived to have. She didn't know much & tried to protect her dad & family the best she thought she could at the time. She had the Queen manipulating her, promising her & her family safety. Sansa had very little choice in that whole scenario. Ned didn't much help himself either, he warned Cersei, trusted Littlefinger, etc. If anyone is be blamed for Ned's death, it is Cersei, Joffrey, & Littlefinger. Sansa is growing & learning as the story goes. I loved Arya & also loved Sansa. They were opposites but both naive. Survivors & fighters in their own way.

[@OpiumMonkey]

I read ASOIF 3 times and on my 4th read. It is so nice to hear your views about it!

[@MoonManTheories]

Welcome to the world of Song of Ice and Fire theory and analysis. Love the video, You're right of course. Part of the astonishing achievement of these books is that they are simultaneously so dense and thoughtful, while also totally succeeding on a the level of broad appeal. I maintain that there is no wrong way to read them, per say, but there are certainly some simplistic interpretations out there. Glad to have your voice on this. Keep going. I've been obsessing over my own theories after reading last year. My own obsessive videos coming soon.

[@BenIsOnlyAsking]

I’m so hype for the Feast for Crows review lol

[@TimRobertsen]

Jon Snow/Arya is the character we all want to think we are. Sansa is the character we'd all be. Also: Sansa is the author testing the reader: She has traits which are easy to dislike, by the end she would have navigated some of the most evil/insane characters in the story, obstacles she did not have the facilities to handle to start with. In the end, the reader would be confronted with their own prejudice.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

Honestly, I never liked Arya or Jon Snow all that much. Daenerys, Stannis and Sansa are my favourites. I don't know if she's some test of the author, maybe you're right, but the way I see it out of the 2 sisters Sansa is the one who's trying to be a grown up. She may fail, but she's trying. Arya just does whatever and everyone gives her a pass under the "loveable rascal" cover. It happened to me in real life and I absolutely hate it, how some get away with everything, while others make one mistake and they're severely punished. It took me a while to learn how to also get away with it. I can relate to Sansa in just wanting Arya to just behave like a normal person. Arya is the spoiled one out of the 2 sisters. She flees after the Mycah thing and lives in the woods for 3 days. She could have been killed. Then Arya herself is also a misunderstood character: she's not a badass assassin, she's a 9 year old girl joining a death cult who's trying to erase her identity. She has severe mental issues. In one chapter she kills a Night's Watch deserter and she enjoys it. That's not normal. I get that in an imaginary world that can come across as cool, but if you had a child who enjoys killing, who has a list of people she wants to kill and who joined a death worshipping cult which is trying to completely erase her identity... wouldn't you be worried about her mental health?

[@TimRobertsen]

​@@octavianpopescu4776 Yeah, Arya is a real tragedy. In-story she goes from rascal to evil, and somehow readers idealize her descent into deepest depths of hell. Personally, I don't see her getting out, at the end of the story, if it with her humanity intact. From a writers perspective I see her as a character you lure the reader into liking, only to be confronted, in the end, with the fact that you have been liking/idealizing someone who became a monster. As for Sansa being a test of the reader: I doudbt it is the case:p It's just my take on the character. It's how I would have used that character's arc. In my view, confronting, and challenging, the reader with their own held beliefs is (or, could be) an important aspect of a story, at least when you have as many characters as ASOIAF has: you can use different characters for adressing different aspects of story telling.

[@octavianpopescu4776]

@@TimRobertsen I'm just surprised that a lot of readers/show watchers don't see that Arya if anything needs help, not admiration. I'm sorry that they didn't include the Ser Soldier scene in the show. That's what made me realize Arya is broken inside. I don't know if you're familiar with it. When she's with the Hound she reaches a village and there's a little girl with a puppet (Ser Soldier) who likes Arya and wants to befriend her and Arya is annoyed by her and rips the insides of her puppet out and throws it on the ground and tells her: "Now he looks like a soldier" (alluding to all the torture, death and destruction she sees along the way). I think that is a very telling scene regarding her mental state, how she was affected by what she saw.

[@TimRobertsen]

@@octavianpopescu4776 I had forgotten about that. It really illustrates how being exposed to the "world" she wanted to be a part of, knights, fighting etc, has severely traumatized her. It goes to show how if the violence doesn't kill you, it will kill your humanity.

[@gliduspyke]

day one asking for bookborn to release the "in defense of Catelyn Stark" video essay

[@Bookborn]

Lmao the number of people already asking for this 🤣 I’ll have to do it but it may need to wait until I do a full reread. Her defense is more complicated Lmao

[@pushista9322]

​@@Bookborn There's a great KZbinr called HillsAlive and she literally has a video in Cat's defence where she repeats every minute "actually Cat's plan was so smart", "honestly Cat's plan was the smartest possible" etc. 😂 Defending Cat is only possible from emotional perspective like "she's a mother!" and "she grieved!" From a logical perspective, Cat was bipolar and struggled to keep a stable perception of her own abilities and the world around her. One minute she is afraid that many of her father's bannermen may refuse to rally, the other minute she demands them to rally. One minute she is ready to give Walder Frey (her dad's bannerman) her two children, the other minute she hopes she doesn't have to make good on that promise. One day she sends Sansa away to marry into a family of murderers (to the best of her knowledge), the other day she starts a war while her daughter is still there with the enemies, yet another day she releases Jaime with an escort of TWO PEOPLE across the war-ridden terrain for a promise to release Sansa... through a back door? And instead of passing Ned's last instructions to Robb (i.e. keep Theon close) Cat keeps talking passive aggressive to him antagonising Robb to the point he stops listening to her completely. Even then she fails to mention it was Ned's last words! Cat's chapters are all about her own feelings and drama, she's like an actress constantly playing for some invisible audience, her inner dialogue is ridiculously self-centred and this is what gets her whole family killed.

[@PlutoRoman]

In college during a Shakespeare class I was the ONLY person defending Ophelia as not "whinny" or a weak character because she's following the commands of her father and her king. She goes crazy because she's following the rules of society the best she can and everything goes wrong for her. Sansa has the same lot.

[@nicholashandfield-jones1837]

Reliving my initial obsession with ASOIAF through your videos has been so amazing. You should do a Catelyn one!

[@ccorvid]

she's talked quite a bit about Catelyn in her previous individual book reviews, but if she did drop one about her as an individual like this, I would definitely watch it immediately as well 😂

[@Bookborn]

lmao I cannot tell you how many comments I've gotten requesting I do a Catelyn defense video. I think I'd have to reread the series first for that one, it's a lot more complicated than Sansa I feel like! Right now I've mostly been like "well I like her so....the end?" 🤣

[@Gunleaver]

@@Bookborn Well, people blame her for urging Ned to take the Handship, for her reaction to Bran's fall and her subsequent behavior wrt managing Winterfell and caring for her other sons, her treatment of Jon, listening to Littlefinger, starting the War of Five Kings by arresting Tyrion, taking him to Lysa, instead of Winterfell, believing Lysa's letter, not returning to Winterfell with Bran and Rickon, arguing for peace, and even with her legit errors like giving away too much in her negotiations with Walder Frey, or letting Jaime go, they tend to be interpreted in the worst possible light, outright calling her a traitor who thinks of her father's family before her husband's (what kind of horrible bitch would do such a thing, that is unforgivable, except when Sansa does that opposite, then it's how dare a noblewoman take the side of her marriage family instead of her birth family), or who selfishly cares only about her kids (the rest of the time, she is heartless and doesn't love her children enough). The discourse in the fandom wrt Catelyn is well beyond the like/don't like phase.

[@doomdrake123]

@@Bookborn You should do an ACCUSATION of Ned Stark. Cuz the foolish man is the crux of all present Stark ills. I like the guy but he is awful father and terrible leader.

[@Bookborn]

@@doomdrake123oh no but I love Ned 🥲🥲 I’m apparently a stark girl through and through

[@zachandera8565]

The last comment regarding Arya/Sansa reminds me a lot of Warbreaker. The distinct experiences and personalities kept them alive in situations the other would have likely failed in.

[@thecockerel86]

😂 I'm with your husband; "Doesn't she know this was written twenty five years ago???"😂 At the same time your new found passion for ASOIAF is infectious. Personally, I didn't think much of Sansa the first time I read the books, and then I found out about the antipathy towards her in the fandom. She is currently one of my favourites. The one thing that annoys me most is characterization of her as someone 'with her head in the clouds'. Just about every major character in the books had their head in the clouds at sometime. Jon Snow pretending to be Aemon The Dragonknight as a boy, then joining the Nightwatch in an attempt to claim some honour, only to have the scales drop from his eyes when he gets to the Wall. Jaime Lannister with his romantic belief on knights and honour, until his rude awakening when he was knighted and inducted into the Kingsguard. Cersei's crush on Rhaegar, Catelyn on Brandon Stark, Tyrion's dreams of riding a dragon and flying away from all his troubles, even Arya's fascination with female heroes of lore, Nymeria and Visenya, and so much more. Yet Sansa is the only character who is attacked for having childish romantic dreams and hopes.

[@jkuykendoll]

Sansa didn't get Ned killed, Ned got himself killed. He didn't play the Game of Thrones with sufficent ruthlessness and his honor and ideals got him killed. But as readers we aren't quite ready for that message at that point in the story, so we find someone else to blame.

[@liul]

I love how much you enjoy the series, I wish more book tubers read it.

[@Holly_Fae]

Something that readers need to understand about the way Sansa is written. We don't get any Sansa's POV until the road to Kingslanding. We only see her interact with her family through Arya's POV and Arya isn't objective. Arya blames Sansa for catching Septa Mordane's attention when they were doing needle work. But it wasn't Sansa, it was Arya. We are tainted from the very beginning by Arya's view of Sansa. We never see Sansa interact with her brothers and hear her thoughts while doing so. It makes the readers biased against Sansa. The readers need to remember that each character has their own motivations and will justify their own actions. If the reader takes the character's internal monologue as truth, then you will be deceived. Example, Hitler probably thought he was a great guy and could justify his horrendous actions. Sansa is one of the few characters in the story who doesn't rationalize her actions. She is very self aware. Sansa is honest and so the readers don't like her. When she realizes that she didn't ask Cersei about Arya after Ned is imprisoned, Sansa is upset with herself. Arya, Daenerys, Bran and other characters do a lot of horrible things. But in their head they are doing the right thing. The reader needs to look at the characters actions and judge them by that.

[@littlejoe9229]

As a casual viewer and reader, I feel like the argument ends with, "She'll 11." Even a teenager or young adult would be swayed by Cersei's manipulation, much less a naïve child.

[@testcase6997]

It's not a great argument because the ages in asoiaf are all messed up and there are characters younger than Sansa who are much more mature

[@RealMrGlizzy]

that means nothing. you know just because characters are treated as adults doesn't mean they are actually adults right? like rob is only 15 and shouldn't have the responsibilities placed on him. same with Jon.@@testcase6997

[@foreverbxnished]

literally jaime, a full grown male who has so much power just in name alone was so easily manipulated by cersei… she’s vile LMFAO

[@Bookborn]

Arya is def NOT more mature LMAO like she is just as selfish and acts more like a child than Sansa tbh! I think the most mature child is Jon, but he has two years on her and at that age every year counts for a lot@@testcase6997

[@Bookborn]

I agree with you! Eleven is very young.

[@astrinymris9953]

When I read the first book, I was all "Yay, Arya!" and "Ugh, Sansa." By the end of 'A Dance with Dragons', I'm impressed by Sansa, and looking a bit askance at Arya. Actually, if Ned had absolutely refused to kill Lady, a true innocent who Cersei targeted out of spite, then he probably wouldn't have died. He'd have either resigned as Hand and gone back North with his daughters and men, probably in time to prevent Catelyn from carrying the Idiot Ball all over Westeros and starting a civil war. He'd have never put together the fact of Cersei's infidelity, and thus never triggered her into killing Robert. Now, the situation was bound to go pear-shaped in one way or another, because Stannis also knew about all the black-haired bastards and was bound to eventually reveal this information. But all the Starks would be safely at Winterfell when the chaos started, and Ned could plan his response from a position of strength. The gods meant for the Stark children to have those wolves, and if Ned hadn't slain one of them, the Stark family wouldn't have been decimated.

[@edmann1820]

I write this as a former Sansa hater 1. The introduction of the character is set in contrast to Arya. The Yin to her Yang. I think Arya is set up for the reader to sympathise with her, so Sansa is set up as an antagonist. She doesn't do anything to change that opinion. 2. She's introduced as that girl. The one who looks down on others for not fitting in. 3. She portrays feminine traits which male readers have been brought up to disdain. We can't really relate to it, think it's silly. Arya portrays traits which we have been conditioned to aspire to. We can see ourselves in her, and not at all in Sansa. People can't get past this first impression.

[@SCordova19]

Not to blame Ned for his own death but it never made any sense to me why he told Sansa or Arya anything at that point. He should have just send them away immediately without explaining and sent them their things later. He could have had men and enough supplies for the journey ready by the time he told them of the plan and not given them time to argue he literally just should have said ‘get in this carriage now.’ And that would be that. He could have explained later.

[@brendanfechter4889]

When did Ned say she's gonna marry a hedge knight? He never said that. He says someone worthy of her. That's no hedge knight. Plus the North has few knights period and they all mostly in White Harbor. Sansa would marry maybe Smalljon Umber, Lucas Blackwood, Patrek Mallister, or Harrion Karstark. Never a hedge knight. If Ned was smart Willas Tyrell would be the optimal match for Sansa but Ned isn't smart. Why wasn't he working toward a Robb/Margaery marriage and a Arya/Trystane marriage. Checkmate. You're already family with Arryn Tully now Tyrell and Martell too? That's a wrap let the Lannisters and Baratheons play Maury Povich all they want

[@amirhad6594]

Oh yes. People blaming Sansa for being gullible and vapid kid, only to turn around and defend Stanis, Catelyn, or Cersei for being deplorable and down right idiotic adults 🙄

[@titans1fan93]

Love these game of thrones videos! I think people really forget how young some of these characters are. They just picture them in the show. Sansa will never be one of my favorite characters. And probably has a lot to do with what you said at the end with Arya vs Sansa. Sansa being feminine vs Arya being a “Tom boy”, but I don’t think anyone can blame her for Ned’s death. If you are to blame someone(outside the obvious like Joffrey, Littlefinger, and Cersei). It would be Ned himself. How many times did he dig his own grave. Talking to Cersei. Even Sansa running to talk to Cersei should be blamed on Ned. A parent should keep track of their 11 year old daughter. Especially if she royalty and you have soldiers to watch her! Great video bookborn!

[@TheDuckChris]

Big realize on the aspect of male aspects being praised, it's something we fall into without even noticing sometimes.

[@laricorva]

First sorry if there are any mistakes, but English is not my mother tongue. Second, I almost cried with your video because you said everything I've ever thought about Sansa. I've read all the books three times and the first time I was only 14 years old and since then I never understood the hatred towards her. And I totally agree with the hypocrisy of the fandom and how they hate her because of things that we can see in many other characters as well. Take Jon, for example. He also has a head full of dreams when he arrives at the Night's Watch and no one blames him for it. Actually, all the Starks kids are like that in some way and I always loved them for that. And Ned's death is Joffrey's fault. And it's important to understand that even if Sansa hadn't said anything to Cersei, Ned probably would have ended up dead because he never planned to leave the city with Sansa and Arya. He literally went to Cersei and told her he planned to tell Robert the truth. Ps: It's the first time I've commented but I found your channel with your first video about "A Game of Thrones" and I've loved your reviews. Feel free to do many more.

[@orthochronicity6428]

I'm not really in the fandom, but the hate Sansa gets has always been absurd. I hadn't heard people blame Sansa for Lady's death before, but have also not heard anyone make the incredibly good counterpoint you did that by the same logic Micah death should be blamed on Arya. And given that it's Sansa up against both Cersei, Joffrey, and Little Finger it's really hard to understand why anyone thinks Ned fate wasn't sealed as soon as Ned made his really dumb ill fated move. Like, sure, it's not 100% guaranteed since you have to flip a coin on what Joffrey would do, but King's Landing is an entire quagmire of bad things that happen for very explicit reasons that is antithetical to Ned's entire world view. Which is the most ironic part of this entire tragedy: if Sansa is to blame, then Ned isn't to blame, and Rob isn't to blame for the Red Wedding. The Starks are the protagonists for the most part, and are more or less given the hero viewpoint we typically want to like, but the world is far more complex and that view point gets them killed. Not only that, but it really then sullies other characters' growths, journeys, and messages too: What are we supposed to make of journeys of characters such as Jaime and Brienne when put side by side with the Starks? I wouldn't put Sansa as a favorite character of mine and did find her pretty annoying, namely because she's is very much written as a child with very rose colored glasses. But... that's Book 1 Sansa. She's very interesting as a character as she grows up, including in the Book 4/5 story and the one chapter from Book 6 that Martin has released. It's almost like she has that character growth thing that normally gets praised by readers. The further I've gotten from my first reading of Book 1, the more I've come to appreciate her character, even if she isn't going to be my favorite in this series enormous cast. There's also several extremely important points surrounding her in terms of the plot, both explicitly, symbolically, and potentially prophetically if you want to get sucked into that side of the analysis, and you don't get to do that while being blind to her character growth and evolving position within the world.