In Defense of Pins and Clips | Ep. 170

[@bdh3949]

Under heavy load, pins and clips are the best options in whitewater. I rowed a scull in my school years and have been rowing both recreationally and professionally for 35 years. If you are constantly pulling your oars in instead of shipping you are not in as much control in the rapid. In fact it puts you so far out of position that it take twice as long as you think to regain position and control. There is absolutely no machoness needed, just good skills and judgments when running 3's and up. If you prefer open locks by all means row it, but never feel less worthy using pins, clips, or whatever gives you peace and enjoyment along with those moments of joyous terror.

[@GearGarageTV]

Thanks for adding your thoughts!

[@frankztank1]

+1 Run a 156D P&C only way to fly when you're a loaded boy!

[@TheBullwheelSlam]

I just texted by buddy: "pins or oar locks?" He didn't have an opinion having little experience with either. And here I am. Great work on the channel. Enjoying it! I watch the downriver footage with a big grin on my face.

[@TheBullwheelSlam]

I responded to him by saying I've always been a pins gut, but I have no experience with spinnies. I didn't even know they were called that.

[@GearGarageTV]

Yep they're called spinnies. I'm glad to hear you're a pins and clips guy.

[@powertapping]

I ran pins and clips for 2 decades and since rowing a cataraft I've switched to oar locks. I agree the pins gave me excellent oar management skills that still show up in my rowing. I like teaching with Pins and clips because every stroke is a good stroke. I broke many more blades with pins than oarlocks and when rowing a loaded raft I still like Pins and clips. With the Cats being so maneuverable I like the versatility of oar locks.

[@GearGarageTV]

Thanks for sharing!

[@delriv5238]

Awesome. Keep them coming

[@jackchivvis4188]

I'm old school (started guiding in '81) when all we had was pins/clips. Rowing cargo boats on pre dam Dolores or class 5 Royal Gorge on the Arkansas river in Colorado. Later Worked for one company and all they did was opens and liked it fine for tighter, technical water. Learned a trick from a big water Moab boatman on my first Grand trip to hammer down my clips a bit so as not to easily pop oars. Of course I only do that on big/deep water trips. Now that is a secure feeling! Never have been thrown out of the boat by my oar- just let go if I had to. I have friends who make fun of me but then fall out of their boat when they go up on edge holding on to the high side oar. I did row an 18 footer rental boat on my last Grand trip with open oar locks and it was fine but still wished I was in my own 14 ft. Hyside with my big ash oars and pins and clips.

[@BDBD20]

Hey Zach. Thank you so much for this thoughtful info. Quick question. You mentioned that if you fall/scoot backwards you can rely on pins and clips to hold the oar from coming out and maybe you from falling out backwards. How does that work? Does the clip catch on the stirrup? I’ve never got my hands on pins and clips so please forgive this ignorant question. From photos it looks like if you wanted to remove the oar, you would just need to slide it backwards. Thank again!

[@GearGarageTV]

The clip catches on the pin. If the clip is tuned correctly it will keep you from falling out but isn't too hard to remove when the oar needs to come out.

[@herbmanning8348]

Good points. Thanks again for your knowledge Zach. To me, open oarlocks is like tele skiing... making something purposely harder for no real performance advantage... just better "feel."

[@GearGarageTV]

Yes I think the same thing sometimes too. When people brag about open oar locks it's almost bragging like they run the same river with a purposefully more challenging set up. I have to say for most Class III and IV boating I personally prefer open oar locks so there is something to running them.

[@juliestanley2034]

I couldn't agree with you more on all parts Recently on the Rogue I was rowing pins, a guide told me to throw my oars forward in the slot. I feel like that would make them more vulnerable to break. I shipped them. I also do like I drive a manual car. Once you know you just do it. Two oars broke on our trip. None were mine 😜

[@TypeIIAdventures]

I really like the fact that pins and clips are attached to the frame more. In fact, I think if I had pins and clips I would have stayed in the boat in lava. I took my left the oar out of the right side of the boat with me. The oar leash kept me close to the boat.

[@williamwarncke1847]

Hi Zach, I've never used pins and clips. Do you ever have an issue with deploying a spare oar or getting the oar back in place if it pops out of the clip? It seems like it would be less likely but maybe more difficult to deal with.

[@GearGarageTV]

Since the pins and clips are in a stirrup it's pretty easy to get them back on the clip. Replacing a spare oar take a little more time than an oar lock but really not a big deal.

[@mattoconnor7114]

Pins and clips are cheap and indestructible. 5/8 bolt with 3/4 schedule 80 pvc sleeve. My stirrups are cut out bias ply tire tread. Wish I could take credit for that idea.

[@LGarrettG]

I have never rowed spinnys. My setup is a 14' Vanguard, NRS day frame, Clips and to long of oars. I gave always wondered what the spinnys were all about. I wanted to wrap my oars and noticed that only spinnys seem to have the wrap. Is there any reason you can see why I should not wap my oars with the pin setup I have?

[@GearGarageTV]

The clip may not fit properly if you wrap the oar

[@nathanegbert977]

I'm one of those guys. I bag on pin clips. I also bag on commercial boaters. It's a long and glorious tradition, a pride of identity, a perfection of an art. I learned to be an oarsman in the big waters of the Colorado. Back then, Carlisle was the only show in town and everybody was running pin clips. Rowing large, heavy boats with long oars in big water means you frequently have to give up an oar and you don't get it back until the river gives it back. Then I learned to row with oarlocks and it opened up a whole new world. In the decades that followed I never gave it a second thought. Open locks were superior and I preached it faithfully. But now I live in Oregon where there is no big water. And now I'm watching Northwest Rafting Company on the river and on KZbin. I see advantages of pin clips in tiny, technical rivers. I also see not all commercial boaters are assholes. I will never buy pin clips but I have come to respect NRC. What a day it is. Good job Zach. You are doing good work, both for the art and the community.

[@GearGarageTV]

Thank you so much for the really nice comment. It is so meaningful to me. I hope you bag on pins and clips just a little bit less in the future.

[@rogueyeti6818]

I've seen both sides of the commercial vs private world. And to me, both have ups and downs. I've been shouted at before, when I was unloading a 5 stack of rafts. And, I've been upset when a company took up a large chunk of a boat ramp. Private boaters are awesome, because your out there to have a good time with (or without) friends. As a guide I have fun, but having a boat full of people for a short amount of time, I find myself being cautious of what I'm saying. Also, I met more guides who think of themselves as kings/queens of the river. One of which I had a rather big disagreement with, regarding the way they moved a part of a tree in the river. I was rather horrified, the morning after, when they said that the first boat would have to ram it to move it out of the way. This was in a trip with guests.

[@nathanegbert977]

@@rogueyeti6818 I think the fundamental difference is motive. Private boaters are in it for love of the river. Comercial guides are there to do a job. It's a position that tends to attract guys who love ego. As you said. I've never met a private boater who first ran as a guide. I've also never met a guide who started out private. I'm sure such people do exist but it underscores a fundamental difference in personalities and motives. Stop paying a guide and he will leave the river. A private boater is ever chasing the next trip. Generally speaking, guides become very proficient with specific boats in a specific stretch of river. In that sense, they are experts. Private boaters have experience with a wide variety of boats and rivers. Each side tends to conclude the other is inept. A little kindness goes far but as is the way with humans, pride mucks it up and perpetuates the divide. On my third Grand Canyon trip, our party had a cancellation who was replaced by a guide who worked for OARS on the Tuolumne river. I would never invite somebody I didn't know on a 16 day trip but I was not the leader. This guy came in believing he was vastly superior and disparaged our party to tears. He set to prove private boaters were not fit to be on the river. This was a highly experienced group but this guy was bent on domination and he resorted to force and sabotage to gain it. We cast him off alone on day 14. Imagine, a paddle guide who has never seen bigwater in his life trying to take control of a group of Grand Canyon oarsmen. Sounds funny now but it was a nightmare.

[@ZacharyCollier]

@@nathanegbert977 "Stop paying a guide and he will leave the river." I think that is true of some guides but definitely not true of all. I started off as a private boater and then became a guide. Most of our guides are boaters who love the river and love sharing it with others and guide for that reason.

[@nathanegbert977]

@@ZacharyCollier Well like I was saying, there is something distinctly solid about NRC. You guys do have a genuine love for the river, and the people, and it shows. I often invite people who have never been rafting. People love the river. They may not like sleeping on the ground or pooping in a can but they love being on the river. I run with two guys now who recently purchased boats. They joined me on a trip and were instantly hooked. It's been fun watching them come alive and we've become close friends. I told them about your channel, how it's a goldmine of good info and they were like, "yeah Zach, we been watching him". And then they start telling me how they now want to do the Illinois and Chetco. Of course they are not ready for that yet but they will be. Maybe we give you a call, get us outfitted and show us the way!

[@blitzen74]

I use and like spinnies. If I regularly ran technical class 4 and 5 I would run pins and clips. What size boat is that black wing? How long are the oars?

[@GearGarageTV]

The black Wing is a 13' raft with 10' oars. I normally run 9' oars at lower water but wanted to test my oar management.

[@blitzen74]

@@GearGarageTV the 12’ 6” Nichols or the 13’ 9” Runyan?

[@GearGarageTV]

@@blitzen74 Neither, it's a 13' boat I designed based on the 16' Serg geometry. If you're interested call them and ask for a drawing of the 13' boat they made for me last year.

[@stacykiely961]

Do you have a recommendation for a set of pins and clips if someone wanted to switch over and get some miles w/ them?

[@GearGarageTV]

Nope. I think NRS and/or Recretec may have them.

[@cheddarchezz]

What's the name of those oar rights that pop up? Nifty

[@GearGarageTV]

Convertible oar rights cascaderivergear.com/shop/convertible-oar-right-each/

[@animascinemaproductions]

What frame do you have for that cataraft?

[@GearGarageTV]

Madcatr

[@Matkatamiba]

I'm surprised you didn't mention them popping out when hitting rocks in shallow water. It's way faster to reset spinnies to a rowable position than when pins get bumped out.

[@GearGarageTV]

I disagree as mainly it depends on the situation. Since the pins and clips are in a stirrup I find it generally easier to reset them.

[@mattoconnor7114]

I row right thru my popped out clip. The stirrup hold the oar close enough to the pin to still be useful. And popping the clip back on is a one handed operation. The stirrup keeps it lined up.

[@rogueyeti6818]

Man, I have run into so many people who are either single minded or who just like to bag on things. I learned on open oar locks (spinnies) as did a lot of other people I know. And yeah, a lot of them think of pins and clips as stupid or old school. Personal I agree with the idea of pins and clips teaching better oar handling. I may not have used them much, but I kinda want to set a frame up with them. Also, some of the people I know have said to me 'You're stupid for not using oar rights for every situation, on every oar.' I don't mind oar rights for certain situations, but personal I find them a bit too limiting.

[@GearGarageTV]

Yes there are all different tools for different applications. It's surprising how passionate people get about how their oars are attached to their boat.

[@nathanegbert977]

I have a friend who runs church groups a few weeks each summer, Snake river in WY. I go help him, do a couple runs per day, class III type stuff. I use one his boats with pin clips. It takes a few runs before I stop wrenching my wrists trying to feather the oars. Being proficient with open locks, I don't personally see any benefit but when I let the kids row, I'm glad the boat has pins, they get a much better experience. And I hate oar rights. I can't stand those things. To me, if you can't feather the oar then you might as well use pin clips. At least then you don't have the clunky slop of an oarlock. But I do enjoy seeing the diversity of styles on the river. When I started rafting, you built your own frame. It was fun to see what worked and what didn't, and compare ideas with those you met along the way. Sheesh I sound old. I'm really not that old. I ran the Rogue twice this summer. What a gem. I love that river. Did it retro style, in an old Avon bucket boat. I got wet in Slim Pickens or Quiz Show, can't remember which. I took an oar to the throat, rolled me right out. My passenger never even knew I left the boat till I popped up in front. Fun times.

[@rogueyeti6818]

@@nathanegbert977 I've done the 'guide overboard' before. For me, I got ejected out the back. And, swim under the boat to the front. Luckily, I entering a large eddy.

[@frogyman1023]

First

[@xjcrawler01]

My friends make fun of me for oar rights. I'm ok with being made fun of. Guess who gets to make fun of them when they miss that crucial stroke. :P

[@GearGarageTV]

Yep!

[@NatePurcellVideo]

Hyside Mini Max?

[@GearGarageTV]

You can learn more about it by searching Google

[@UrsaMusic]

kayaks are the pins and clips of boats