Pins and Clips vs. Oar Locks Revisited | Ep. 80

[@chuckbrainerd3861]

Great discussion. I would like to add that P&C allow you to row open handed both pulling and pushing on flat water. I have never gotten a blister from rowing that way. I haven't seen oars break from the scenario discussed but I have seen boatmen thrown into the water several times from the same type of grabbed blade on a spinnie.

[@GearGarageTV]

Thank you for calling it a spinnie

[@chrisavila2788]

Great conversation

[@jackchivvis4188]

Many good points! I have guided with both but on my personal boat I prefer p&cs. One because of a bad wrist and two I want to stay in the boat and not get pitched out the side. I have a pair of wood oars I have been using for 36 years and love them in big water. They are heavy but well balanced and don't bounce around. The times I would like oarlocks are shallow low water rocky runs that we sometimes do on these S.W. desert rivers since I don't want to beat up my beautiful old wood oars. So my friends can make fun of me all they want but I get the last laugh when they shot out of the boat sideways by a big wave.

[@adamvolwiler7336]

We found that the pin and clip setups tended to brake blades much more when we ran low water on the Middle Fork of the Salmon. The blade would catch a rock and snap instead of spinning or sliding in.

[@GearGarageTV]

Adam Volwiler good oar management is needed with pins and clips

[@barryhoffman4048]

which tends to lose more Oars? I would say spinnies. but I may be wrong.

[@GearGarageTV]

Poor oar management loses the most oars

[@andrewparker5171]

Classic boater conversation... 20 minutes of going round and round about, what was it we were talking about? Uh, I don't know, I forget. Ha. there I was... No, kidding. It's a good conversation. I started out on pins and clips and feel they are great for learning, as the oars angle is set, and as mentioned, sort of creates a more stable cockpit within which to operate. The down side, I learned, was if they they take a hard knock on a rock, in just the right way, they may spin, and now you have an oar which is useless, as its set at a poor angle, and you need a nut driver to adjust. The oar now just dives! Yikes. Bad situation when that happens. I do like them for big, deep water as well for all the reasons mentioned. Having said that, I like oarlocks for most rivers and situations as I feel they can be manipulated, feathered, shipped, and handled easier, quicker, with more precision. They are more difficult to use, and take experience, but work well, particularly as Aaron mentioned when you wish to drag or feather an oar on the surface to adjust your angle. I do that a ton. Side note: Aaron is one of a small group of oarsman who I would consider world class with skills developed running the most difficult whitewater water in the world for many, many years. Zach posses similar skills set. These guys are total pros, and know their shit

[@richardservatius5405]

with a wide boat, shipping oars between a narrow passage between rocks is difficult with both pins/clips and oar locks. you either have to let go of one oar, be an orangutan, or have a passenger in the front grab an oar blade when you let go of an oar. if one rock is low to the water; then you can push down on that oar to lift the blade over the rock.

[@jaredlinkhart6528]

I rowed a snout/J rig down the Colorado when I was 16 with pins and clips. I had an oar ripped out of my hand that hit a passenger in the head on Upset rapid. After literally a crash course on pins and clips, I have never wanted to run them again. I run spinnies and standard Oar Rights now, and it works well for us. My 11 year old son can easily row my 14 foot round boat, along with my wife. I had a rookie rower take it yesterday, and I think it helped her also. I think Oar Rights/ pins and clips can cause shark bites in the blades, but it’s a price I’m willing to pay. Also, not shipping my oars costed me a blade in Mule Creek Canyon.

[@GearGarageTV]

Thank you for calling them "spinnies"

[@crazybilltv5220]

I notice someone said shipping oars..if your use to oar locks shipping is different than shipping with pins and clips.. you need to think 2 seconds ahead with pins and clips... gotta be proactive with pins and clips where open oar locks allows you to be reactive instead. In Class 5+ missing one stroke can become brutal. Pins and clips make sure your oar is there

[@alaskaraftconnection-alask3397]

Good conversation piece for certain. Pros on Pins/Clips/Cuffs or stirrups: More of what I call 'direct-drive'... what I mean by this to translate is A.) Drive consistency B.) Leverage torque/force multiplier C.) Oar-station/oars-person balance, position, and stability in any/all positions from sitting, standing, to recovery. D.) Oars are not 'floating' up and out in huge water. E.) Violent holes, it can be better stirred out of plus having ofen a little more valuable time . F.) Don't have water... ship stoke in or away on tight water, as well as put the brake levers or power on in no water, (able to believe it or not scrape along more subtly). I label all oars oriented slightly feathered for were they go and not all 0/0 90 degree to water (only spare is 90). All of my guide boats rafts or cats and Creatures that 'consistently' will be running demanding character and conditions will have this system. I make my own cuffs that hold up better and resist weathering much better. I go stainless hardware and plastic balls vs. dipped/coated and rubber. The hose clamps get 1 layer of scrim material padding, then taped. Pros for OPEN: Open oarlocks are also not created equal brand to brand. Selection wise, I run for up to class 3-4 using Sawyer Cobra DLX w/ the Nylock nuts and tuned at my raft shop for sleeves and rights. Better alloy, better lathe work, holds a tune, more control and leverage than standard, kinder to oars mitigating erosion or bending, and kinder to rower... tougher, quieter... not just key-ring security. I use these nearly exclusively for all outfitted rental format. Oars are soldier proofed labeled A for right hand, B for left, and C spare with tethers A & B are pre-feathered... bottom blade canted more downstream angle providing more efficient/clean dive angle plus a quicker positive lifting effect to stern when initiating and maintaining ferry angles. Open free finessing 'Spinnies' simply get too many folks into problems that are avoidable, they would not be into, and recoverability is facilitated by both the other systems especially in really big water or the harsh nozzle drops that are like stepping on the gravity throttle. CONS TO BOTH: 1.) Poor tuning and/or maintainance. 2.) Sustaining Damage... ie. how certain damage or loss plagues or disables systems and how to adapt or replace. 3.) Driver error. By the way the bungie thing is nothing new... it came from the seafarers in dorries on rough seas using rubber bungee straps or heavy duty gasket material. Oars would not float out of locks, oarsman could be relieved easier, and picks could be performed while main vessel and skiffs were simultaneously moving. My simply modded Cobra DLX work very good for this and best when using oar-rights. Great for power/drift applications.

[@GearGarageTV]

Great thoughts - thank you for adding more to the conversation

[@richardservatius5405]

over lapping oars can cause knuckle damage and loss of control if they hit, but that can mostly be avoided with practice.

[@sierrad7039]

Great discussion. It occurs to me that one advantage of P&C is almost infinite, cheap adjustability of height: With long (12") pins and several short lengths of crazy cheap PVC, you can switch the height easily by changing the length of PVC above and below the stirrups. Get a new ice chest? new boat? new oars? new rower? With P&C you don't have to go buy expensive matching oar towers of the right height.

[@fflanner]

I just had my first rowing experience in two friend's boats recently, both with "spinnies". One had his stops set well inboard of a comfortable rowing position, about 6" per oar or more, so it was impossible to row while against the stops. The other had the stops right at a comfortable rowing position. Where do you like your stops?

[@GearGarageTV]

With spinnies I like the stops in a comfortable rowing position like you mentioned

[@Tooflower]

Zach do you make/encourage your guides to have their own sets of oars?

[@GearGarageTV]

No

[@Lochsa89]

Open oarlocks beat the pants off pins and clips in 96.5% of cases. Much more control of the oar, much more finess, can choke up on the oar in the lock for more leverage. If open locks feel more challenging, then you need to spend more time learning. BTW - oar rights are definitely the equivalent of training wheels. They totally negate all advantages an open lock. If you need oar rights, why wouldn't you just use pins?

[@darrelldb1]

I've heard of the bungee with oar rights, but I'm having a hard time envisioning that. Can you elaborate?

[@GearGarageTV]

I'll try to get my hands on a pair and do an episode about them

[@richardservatius5405]

on the snake river the upstream wind is terrible and oar rights with oar locks allow you to feather blades when out of the water, and you can't do that with pins/clips.

[@CarstenJensenRocks]

Hey Zach what is your opinion of Pro-Loks? I run them and like the system overall, although I've found I don't often use them in the locked position.

[@GearGarageTV]

I haven't used them but they seem cool