In Defense of Takeda Katsuyori

[@TheShogunate]

Don't forget to check out the argument I made in defense of Imagawa Yoshimoto as well! kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2TdeoeHlLqhfdE

[@grandadmiralzaarin4962]

Will there be a "In Defense of Ishida Mitsunari" video perchance?

[@TheShogunate]

@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 At some point yes

[@loveofmangos001]

Oyamada's mountain castle Iwadono still stands to this day. I visited it in 2019. I believe it is the only Takeda castle that still stands to this day. It was kept around and not demolished because it was a secret escape route for the Tokugawa Shogunate.

[@discordanceplays]

Ohh I'm loving this series any chance of an "In Defense of Hideaki Kobayakawa" as well?

[@dezopenguin9649]

Consistent with the principle, "Just because you lost to Oda Nobunaga doesn't make you an incompetent fool." Which one would think would be kind of obvious, but... (That said, taking your own niece as a concubine...that's genuinely creepy, Shingen.)

[@FinnishDragon]

I agree with that Takeda Katsuyori was a decent warrior and general. However his weakness what that he was only an average clan leader. One should also remember that the Oda and the Tokugawa forces did have an excellent leadership in all levels at Nagashino because all the three great unifiers where present and there were also many other significant Oda and Tokugawa generals present. An other thing to consider is the fact that the senior Takeda generals were also the senior Takeda governors ruling their fiefs. When so many of the famous Takeda generals with their retinues died it also weakened their ability to rule their own lands. One can also assume that their successors did now have much respect on Katsuyori and many of them started to scheme to defect to the other clans after the battle of Nagashino.

[@arielquelme]

On the contrary.. Takeda clan was not a paper tiger after Nagashino in contrary to popular belief They still strong, however, Katsuyori blunders keep piling up, from breaking the alliance with strong Honjo clan (causing the Tokugawa clan free to raids Takeda territories), and mismanagement that caused senior generals like Baisetdu anayama anf Nobutomo Akiyama rather surrendee to the Oda Historival records was harsh to Katsuyori for very good reason He was simply not good leader

[@godzilla5599]

The real reason he lost that many are probably overlooking is Nobunaga wasn't playing by any rule book the Samurai at the time understood,he was in a way rewriting it and Katsuyori just happened to be the poor bastard that the idea got tested on.

[@zxbc1]

Yes, Oda clan was very adaptive to new tactics and technologies, whereas Takeda was extremely traditionalist and adhered to samurai code and "honor". Which also meant that Katsuyori's overall strategic plan of pushing onto Oda was just the worst choice - he could have preserved themselves for many more years and potentially adapted to the new stuff eventually, but he rushed the confrontation when he was not ready. It's a classic example of survival of the fittest - Oda clan was arguably the fittest at the time, and it manifested on the battlefields and in government.

[@haroldcruz8550]

Nobonuga was able to lord over Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, that alone tells you how formidable as a military leader he is regardless of his morality.

[@MarvinT0606]

Watching the army your father built evaporate in one battle sobers you up

[@arielquelme]

They didnt evaporate They simply absorbed to the Tokugawa clan.. For more info, should red about the "Tensho-Migo war" between Tokugawa vs Honjo clan just in the wake of Nobunaga death Its very underrated war where 8000 Tokugawa army manage to hold 55000 Hojo army, convincing the Takeda samurais to switch allegiance yo Tokugawa as they were impressed with Ieyasu

[@thedragonofechigo7878]

I've been waiting for this video for sometime now. A lot of popular media make out Katsuyori to be an incompotent general who lost all the trust of the prominent Takeda retainers and led them to their defeat at the hands of Oda-Tokugawa while this is true since the Anayama and Oyamada betrayed the Takeda in the end, Katsuyori did manage to lay Siege and capture Takatenjin, a fortification Shingen did not, an example of how compotent and capable he was. Problem is that the Takeda broke off alliances with their neighbors during Shingens time as well, not to mention the growing power of the Tokugawa and the Hojos ever present influence in the Kanto.

[@jeffreygao3956]

@Rouvenor That doesn’t make sense! If it took a great Commander to beat Takeda Katsuyori, then Katsuyori must’ve been good in his own right.

[@main1033]

He has character flaws and he doesn't have the insight Nobunaga had but otherwise he's probably an average general

[@blaznsoccer3997]

He's an overrated general, he was a hot head who should've made more allies but instead he wanted to aggressively expand which dealt him a decisive blow to his men.

[@jeffreygao3956]

@@blaznsoccer3997 Eh, still would be a decent match for Johann Rall.

[@demonblood8841]

Katsuyori is really unfortunate that his massive defeat just happened to be one of the most famous battles of the time. Definitely deserves more credit.

[@korawitbuttramee618]

TBF, he did gamble his best soldiers against a bigger, equally battle-hardened army led by the most capable minds of his time (all three Unifiers were on the same side) over a siege that didn't really give him any tactical advantage by a long shot.

[@demonblood8841]

@@korawitbuttramee618 That's fair and honestly I hadn't considered that. Lol

[@ace6608]

Even he is not as great as his dad he is still an amazing warrior

[@saemonno-suke9959]

@@korawitbuttramee618 Tokugawa was incredibly overrated. the Monkey and Nobunaga never really needed him aside from covering the retreat from the Asakura.

[@jeffreygao3956]

No shame losing to Nobunaga; Nobunaga's just one of the best daimyo commanders.

[@Nubsteplawl]

Love the “in defense of” videos so far!

[@just_radical]

To me Nagashino seems like a reasonable gamble based off the intelligence that Katsuyori had regarding the state of the Oda army. He appears to have thought they had far fewer guns than they did, that the rainy weather had rendered their powder useless, and that the distance of open ground he would have to cover was short enough that he could concentrate enough force to break their lines before taking unacceptable losses. He just turned out to be fatally wrong about all those things.

[@TheShogunate]

Yeah his intelligence surly had an impact on how he thought his army would preform.

[@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag]

He also gave the time to set up stakes; I mean either have artillery to deal with long range units; or have cavalry so your enemy doesn't have time or leisure to fortify themselves. I don't see much excuse for handing them an agincourt style victory; unless he grossly underestimated tokugawa and Oda; which is something he could also be faulted for.

[@felixborges7440]

Exactly. At the expense of sounding like every Monday morning armchair historian on here. There were two glaring issues with katsuyori’s decision at nagashino. Those being that despite how favorable the odds were in his favor when he decided to besiege the castle by the time the Oda/Tokugawa arrived to relieve the castle he was vastly outnumbered. Secondly nagashino was not strategically significant enough of a location to warrant such a huge risk which many of his senior retainers told him so and for whatever reasons valid or otherwise he chose not to listen.Sounds like he let his ego get the better of him that day. That’s not to say that he was a bad Daimyo as a whole but IMO there is little ground to defend him for nagashino

[@lewisaino]

@@felixborges7440 He should have done it earlier. The same energía as attacking Russia during Winter.

[@PhantomObserver]

Thing is, the Oda strategy of multiple lines of guns was a genuine innovation. I don’t know if it predated European use of the strategy, but it’s not only unlikely that Katsuyori would have anticipated it, it’s not likely that any other general would have entertained the thought. Most would have assumed a longer length of time between reloads for one single line of guns.

[@NachtKaiser666]

It's sad how history chose to remember both Imagawa Yoshimoto and Takeda Katsuyori. Facts are the Oda were just of higher caliber. Nobunaga's unorthodox style and leadership made him probably one of the greatest samurai commander in the history of Japan. They were definitely dealt a bad hand in life and it's time we acknowledge they weren't bad, they just faced someone who was clearly more clever, a true hero of chaos.

[@kaijudirector5336]

Yoshimoto's actually fairly well represented in Yokoyama Misuteru's Shingen manga and the 1992 TBS Shingen miniseries. He's more of a respected elder and as an ambitious puppetmaster in those two. Heck he's pretty dignified in Nobunaga's Ambition - Sphere of Influence as well. It's only in Samurai Warriors and the 1994 Nobunaga miniseries where I've seen him being a big buffoon.

[@NachtKaiser666]

@@kaijudirector5336 never heard of those, I'll have to check them out, thanks! Samurai Warriors had him as a goofy character early on and in later titles they began teasing it was a facade to hide a darker side of him. I actually really like what they did with him in SW5 though. While he keeps his noh theater face, they actually made him really intimidating! I'm guessing the Nobunaga's Ambition version you were referring also went in a similar direction

[@kaijudirector5336]

@@NachtKaiser666 Nope, they gave him a regal chancellor look: i.pinimg.com/564x/d5/eb/37/d5eb37cac32b445b3561c5e89a3ab796.jpg

[@dannygreenland4853]

I totally agree although it was different for Yoshimoto, as when Nobunaga attacked him Nobunaga was a nobody in Yoshimoto's eyes a fool, whereas Katsuyori faced a Nobonaga in his prime, it is interesting to know that Katsuyori wasn't actually a joke but he fought against someone smarter then he and devious, Guns were used before the battle of Nagashino but not as many as in the battle, Nobunaga loved all things of the West, it is a shame that the Takeda were done for after the battle but I'm an Oda fan so shit happens.

[@bkjeong4302]

@@NachtKaiser666 There’s also the Nioh version of him, where his seemingly goofy appearance just comes off as unsettling and he’s very much closer to his IRL self in competency.

[@jimross7648]

I think this is a perfect example of how things that seem inconsequential to one side can ultimately affect both sides greatly. The Takeda cavalry had been a dominant game changer for decades. This gave them power and attracted allies. On the Oda side a relatively new technology was going to be employed on greater scale than previously attempted. Neither side could foresee the domino effects that stem form this one engagement. The Takada cavalry were nullified as a preeminent force on the battlefield, while the Oda gunners became a preeminent military weapon. Nagashino reduced Takada power and influence and Oda gained power and Influence. Katsuyori being the leader of the Takada forces was with 20 20 hindsight was considered an incompetent leader for not having foreseen that a new method of deploying a newer technology would have devastating effects on his forces. His previous success's were deemed irrelevant in assessing his leadership skills. As is always the case allies who formally were loyal abandon the losing side for the winning side, thus Katsuyori had progressively less resources, power, and political options eventually leading to his suicide.

[@theazureknight9399]

Katsuyori was advised by his veteran retainers, who'd served under Shingen for many years and had a lot more experience than him, that Nagashino wasn't that important, and taking this big of a risk was foolish and unnecessary. But he did it anyway, charging the Oda front lines no less. Even without taking hindsight into consideration, I don't think it's too outlandish to believe that a more competent strategist wouldn't have fallen into this massive pitfall if faced with a similar situation.

[@main1033]

It wasn't a matter of technology, it was of sound judgement. The Uesugi retainer Murakami Yoshikiyo utilized guns effectively decades before this battle and was able to beat Shingen while being severely outnumbered

[@Hilversumborn]

Nobunaga coming up with the idea of volley fire while hindering the famed Takeda cavalry as much as possible was something I don’t even think Shingen could’ve have predicted.

[@kaijudirector5336]

Then again Shingen might not have gone on that third Tokugawa campaign in the first place. He probably would have finished the Tokugawa after Noda.

[@steakdriven]

Our man Shingen would have 100% figured out that charging the front line was a bad idea

[@kaijudirector5336]

@@steakdriven That makes me wonder if Katsuyori even bothered to do reconnaissance. I'm fairly sure that the old generals would have really put their feet down on retreating if they found out that Nobunaga was trying to Guandu them.

[@steakdriven]

@@kaijudirector5336 his generals did advise him to not charge but he ordered them to anyway and because of you know Samurai loyalty and all that they followed his command

[@windofchaosblows]

@@kaijudirector5336 actually after charge from the front proved pointless (and fatal) Katsuyori tried attacking from other sides but it didn't worked out because they already suffered lots of causalities and moral of troops where pretty low, while defense around Oda camp was in top shape and great spirit

[@jasontakahashi6374]

Another great video and topic! While Katsuyori was a competent commander, he lacked his father 's wisdom, experience, and patience. A retreat from Nagashino would have been wise and fight again for another day. It is somewhat sad that a great clan was pretty much taken down by this one decision. Looking forward to your next video! Thank you!

[@hanchiman]

Katsuyori was unfortunate that he got a bad rep due to him being the last Takeda clan leader.

[@korawitbuttramee618]

Weren't Shingen's old guards also looked down on him for being the son of a concubine from a defeated clan?

[@hanchiman]

@@korawitbuttramee618 I think it just rumour as Katsuyori did prove himself several times for his military capability while Shingen was still alive. I think he lost respect after the illfated Nagashino where many veteran 24 generals that followed Shingen died like Naito, Baba and Yamagata. Also Kosaka warned Katsuyori that Nagashino is basically a suicide but Katsuyori ignored him

[@IKEMENOsakaman]

I used to play as Takeda Katsuyori on Samurai Spirit 5 on PS4. Oh man, the game play would've been so much deeper if only I watched this video before I played, so I could taste all the umamis in the game...!

[@nemesis3587]

I like his portrayal in both Kagemusha and Sanada Maru. He is unlikable douchebag in Kagemusha but you could totally understand his character, that's why it is outstanding portrayal. In Sanada Maru he is sad sympathic character you feel sorry for him especially Oyamada's betrayal scene is so tragic. He is definetly a fashinating figure how his luck never turned after Nagashino, how one choice turned everything upside down makes him interesting character. I'm more curious about could Sanada clan protect him?

[@saberryuji191]

Probably it's a 50/50. Sanada as we know not a big clan at that time. But they have Sanada Masayuki who is a great strategist. In my opinion, Sanada can protect Katsuyori but it still a great gamble. Like what if there are some traitor who will give the information to Oda and then suddenly Oda Clan destroy Sanada Village just to find Katsuyori

[@Naraku-no-Hana-WE]

Ah, I'm late but you did indeed do a defense of Katsuyori, and you nailed this one. He was far more capable than history and popular depiction tend to remember. A brave warrior and more than competent leader who had plentiful success prior to his one major fatal decision. Although I'm not sure there is enough objective material to base it on I would love to see a "In defense of Matsunaga Hisahide" video.

[@bkjeong4302]

There’s a lot of work in Japan that suggests that though he was that manipulative and spiteful, he didn’t actually assassinate the shogun (that was the Miyoshi doing that on their own accord) or kill a bunch of Miyoshi heirs.

[@Naraku-no-Hana-WE]

@@bkjeong4302 oh I missed this comment earlier but I agree, he's been heavily villainized. But he was immensely successful despite his low standing for good reason, would probably make a good subject for a video.

[@-RONNIE]

This is why I enjoy history & information channels like yours and others. I really didn't know anything about him but thank you for the video. Keep up the good work.

[@PoorRightousTeacher]

Thank you it's a sad story of Katsuyori's demise. I always wanted to know about his last stand and who was with him and how many men at arms. We know he was betrayed by his vassals at some point. Imagine those final moments when the family had to commit Seppuku and it was the end of the Tekada.

[@Techgnome21]

Great video!! I think its important that you brought up how Nobunaga was well prepared. The way he used fire arms would set the tone for samurai warfare going forward. Katsuyori didn't really have a counter for that.

[@Rorgosh]

A thing about battles: only one side can win them. Actually it is a common occurrence, when a previously successful military leader became defeated, and it looks like he was not so great. But what really happens is that good military leaders can adopt to each other, and use their forces with high efficiency. By this, if two really good leader meet in a battle, then the one with more resources win, and a loser suffer a crushing defeat. The more resource here important not just because of the number, but the more resources provide more adaptability. And the defeat is a crushing one, because both of the fighting forces are fully engaging during the battle, so the kill zone is extremely large.

[@jeffreygao3956]

Even in the case of ties i.e. indecisive outcomes, status quo antebellum, and stalemates?

[@dethaddr]

At this time, if Katsuyori had won at Nagashino, he would likely be one of the Great Unifiers and Tokugawa and Nobunaga would be the footnotes. The victors get to write history, and history has hung heroes for it.

[@jeffreygao3956]

Not always the case; By that logic, the US would have loads of Union commander statues rather than Confederates and Mongolian would be the dominant language across Asia. Plus, I'm sure America still harbors some recognition of guys like William Howe, Charles Cornwallis, and other British military commanders from the American Revolution.

[@dethaddr]

@@jeffreygao3956 Haven't been watching the news these past few years, huh? There was nobody to defend those Confederate statues while the public decided to tear them down. The only ones left standing ARE from the Union. (and don't forget that monument to the CIC in DC, he was the Union leader, don't see anything like that from the Confederacy except a shunned flag). As for the Mongolians, they eventually lost in Europe and were destroyed by infighting once Genghis' kin had to split the empire. If it weren't for Subutai, they wouldn't have made it that far. However, since they didn't end up the victors, they all ended up being a footnote. Just ask any ordinary Joe, they will recognize Genghis of course, but I doubt they could name any of his offspring.

[@keiththomas1180]

Not always, the German high commanders of WW2 have gotten to write narrative of the West's Post-war view even tho they lost completely, so it's not as simple as "history is written by the victors"

[@dethaddr]

​@@keiththomas1180 That's in the more modern warfare era. In the old days, couldn't even get their myths right, just look at King Arthur. Does anyone truly know where that myth started? This is mostly because anyone who knew how to record history was either an intellect of the ruling regime or it was passed by word of mouth... ever play the "telephone" game. Word of mouth is one of the worst ways to convey important information.

[@main1033]

There was no way he would win at Nagashino. The only way he would be able to get a victory is with Uesugi help, on a battlefield suited for cavalry

[@thewildformosanformosan]

I think a key reason Katsuyori wanted that battle was he felt that he needed a decisive victory in order to demonstrated to his generals that he was worthy of this leadership role, given how great his father was and that almost all his generals were from his father's generation and probably didn't think too highly of their new young lord and could be planning on overthrowing him or betraying him to join more established clan leaders

[@betegarcia6766]

Magnifecent and spetacular analysis as always. Suggestion of vídeo:in defense of Ujimasa Hojo,Nobutaka Oda or Mitsunari Ishida.

[@bkjeong4302]

“In defence of Toyotomi Hideyori” is another good one.

[@supersasukemaniac]

I think Katsuyori wasn't expecting a full scale battle, he was expecting a relatively quick siege, then he noticed that an Ashigaru named Sunemon had gotten out and warned Nobunaga and Ieyasu of the siege, and quickly threw together what he could to slow them down.

[@marcelostalker]

I expected this since the Yoshimoto video. I don't have much to say on this one, I basically agree with what is said in the video. As for another samurai remembered poorly by a single difficult decision, do you think it would be interesting to do a video on Hideaki Kobayakawa? I don't think we can put a more positive light on him, like with Yoshimoto and Katsuyori, but it could be fair to look at his life and possible reasons for his crucial decisions too. Besides, his past is interesting in itself, not that many sengoku fans know how a Kinoshita ended up the heir to the famous Takekage.

[@bkjeong4302]

He was apparently a good enough peacetime administrator (in the same vein as Date Masamune) that he not only significantly increased the wealth of his holdings but also was mourned even by the peasantry upon his passing.

[@devofanj9452]

So first off, I think it needs to be said that while Takeda Shingen was no doubt an extremely competent daimyo, his military reputation is rather overblown. Many of his victories were won not because of brilliant strategizing or creative tactics, but because of him focusing a lot of force in battlefields where his enemies couldn't afford to do so. Shingen was also pretty good at engaging in diplomacy and political tricks, as can be seen with the Triple Alliance and how he eventually broke it to swallow up the Imagawa. Furthermore, it needs to be stressed that the Oda-Tokugawa coalition wasn't winning comfortably against Katsuyori at the battle of Nagashino. There was a lot of fighting through most of the day, as you said, and towards the end of the battle Katsuyori's forces had actually successfully broken past their flanks and were almost about to pressurize the center. It was during their panicked retreat that the Oda-Tokugawa forces picked off most of their targets. Had Katsuyori persisted a bit more, Nagashino may well have been a completely different story...

[@main1033]

I dunno. I think he needed more troops and a better battleground. But yes, Murakami Yoshikiyo was giving Shingen the business back in the day

[@bkjeong4302]

It is true that Shingen wasn’t as good a field commander as often made out to be, but to argue that he was bad at military matters because he relied much more heavily in setting up political arrangements to win his battles ignores that setting things up to put oneself at maximum possible advantage is part of being a competent commander. That’s like saying Napoleon was a bad commander because he used defeat-in-detail tactics to bring overwhelming forces to small portions of coalition forces or that Eisenhower was incompetent during the D-Day landings because he had the industrial and manpower advantage of the Allies to back him up.

[@atomixfang]

Gotta be hard to have a famous dad.

[@alexwest2573]

I was just playing Way of the Samurai 3 and you had the games intro as your intro lmao

[@dannygreenland4853]

It is interesting to know more about Katsuyori, he seemed to be an accomplished warrior, he paid a huge gamble and it backfired on him plus he was also fighting against Oda Nobunaga a man not many people could beat, because of his tactics and the way he revolutionalised battle he changed how battles are fought with the guns, in a way Katsuyori let his pride get in the way.

[@windofchaosblows]

Katsuyori wasn't bad leader he was unlucky one, because let's be honest genius Shingen would never allow untalented or foolish person to succeed him he'd rather found someone even if far relative in that case, it's just the only mistake Katsuyori made proved to be the last one as well not to mention Nobunaga was more experienced commander who knew how to play defensively and not take high risks unnecessarily

[@TheAleatoriorandom]

Very interesting video and great points! I think that something that happens often, it´s that when compared to the victorious side those who are defeated are heavily undervalued, had Katsuyori fougth a lesser enemy indstead of the innovative tactics of the Oda he may very well have been praised as a brave and determined commander who achieved victory and worthy succesor of Shingen. It´s not really a lack of merit of skill on his part, but an enemy great enough to surpass him that meant his defeat.

[@akechijubeimitsuhide]

I'd like a drama focusing on Katsuyori. He's usually just there in various Nobunaga- or Ieyasu-centric dramas to get his arse handed to him and meddle with Tsukiyama (maybe). Even Sanada dramas kill him off fast. He could make a flawed and tragic protagonist.

[@S1lvermoon]

Nice analysis as always wondering if you would do one on harukata sue like his defeat at itsukushima by motonari mori cast a huge shadow on him I tried to do research on him but didn’t find much maybe you’ll find more about him with your expertise and that you probably know what journal or books to search in about harukata sue

[@JiggaMan1297]

Man, I really respect how he chose to go out… Despite underestimating his enemy & losing the war he still kept his sense of honor and chose to die in his home instead of running. He showed no sign of being a coward & faced his enemy head on like a true samurai. In honor of his father. RIP

[@tomigun6913]

Yes!! I love rarely discussed sengoku topics like this

[@Powerhouse1]

Haven't watched the video yet, but I never got the impression that he was incompetent. Sure, he made bad decisions, but he was in a really bad position considering what was surrounding him as well as Nobunaga acquiring guns.

[@terencekoh6296]

it does seem rather commonplace in most histories and historiographies that early judgements of historical figures or events tend to be a bit more simplistic and harsh and then rehabilitated as future historians dig a bit deeper and apply more nuanced ways to assess them. modern-day focus on context and the idea of social forces of the time shaping mentalities and decision-making can only benefit our views of the complex legacies of figures such as Katsuyori whom I sympathise with (not so nice to be called a fool or the cause of your clan's downfall ainnit)

[@Infinitebrandon]

I know what was going through his head, fairly well. Arigato shogunate sama. Every once in awhile you blow my mind with your appreciation of honor. 🤙

[@chriscoulter6089]

Great video!

[@kilday33]

How about next do an In defence of Ishida Mitsunari?

[@ronedward9955]

Uesegi Kenshin is still alive on that day I wonder if he katsuyori listen to commanders to retreat and regroup and ask for help or allied with Uesugi it will be definitely win them all against the 3 great unifiers. You agree right hehe

[@MeloniMacWOKE-RIGHT]

I always thought that Katsuyori as more of a tragic figure then a fool

[@alexandreboureau6175]

I still have trouble accepting that charging into a numerically superior force into a prepared muddy terrain can end well. In a way, it sounds reminiscent of the French defeats of the Hundred Years war. But maybe the main reason for the attack could have been that refusing battle would have doomed him anyway (the campaign had been quite unsuccessful up to this point, and he may have been thinking that returning home empty handed would make his allies defect)?

[@yisun-sin5780]

Do you plan to cover the personality of Akechi Mitsuhide?

[@andreipopescu2655]

I totally disagree with the conclusions of the video; in my mind, Takeda Katsuyori deserves to be ridiculed and depicted as a poor decision maker. This is due to the fact that he disregarded a few well-known rules of warfare: 1) You should be wary of engaging in battle a numerically superior force. 2) Never fight a battle with your back towards a castle/city that you don't control. 3) If the enemy has superior numbers, don't attack them head on; find an easily defendable position and let them come to you. A famous example of successfully implementing this rule is the battle of Azincourt. 4) If the enemy has superior numbers, don't attack them head on; use guerilla war tactics in order to turn their higher numbers into a disadvantage. For example, look at how Vlad the Impaler/Dracula was able to dismantle a Turkish army several times bigger than his. Another highly effective example would be Oda Nobunaga at Okehazama. These are strategic principles which have been observed throughout the Antiquity and the Middle Ages; those who chose to ignore them lost the battles in 99% of the cases. The fact that Katsuyori didn't know them, and that he chose to ignore the advice of those more experienced than him, is entirely his fault. That fact that he was eager to prove himself as a military commander cannot be considered an excuse for his poor decision making; he had a lifetime in front of him to prove that. The best counterexample is Tokugawa Ieyasu; this is the kind of patience that you need to display in order to accomplish great deeds.

[@main1033]

Tokugawa had patience and Oda's support to protect him from Shingen's victory. Nobunaga didn't have an ego in the sky like Katsuyori did and retreated after the Battle of Tedorigawa despite outnumbering Kenshin heavily.

[@MCorpReview]

How would the takeda have ruled Japan differently from Tokugawa ?

[@jeffreygao3956]

Not sure; I like to think of them colonizing the West Coast of North America and battling guys like the Tlingit but that's running into alternate history.

[@Ordoscc]

Will there be a "In Defence of Imagawa Ujizane"?

[@TheShogunate]

Haha maybe

[@Ordoscc]

@@TheShogunate Nonsense! Next you'll be telling me that there'll be a "In Defence of Anayama Nobukimi" or "In Defence of Kobayakawa Hideaki"!

[@shirowolfanimator]

I actually requested for you to cover katsuyori next

[@residentrump3271]

"If I keep sending my men at them, the enemy will eventually run out of bullets! Brilliant!" Katsuyori Takeda before the battle at Nagashino

[@pashico7082]

Katsuyori was a decent although not Shingen-level leader. He was competent most times, but he still singlehandedly caused the death of the Takeda so... I will always hate him. Katsuyori, you nearly did it, but screw you.

[@febriandi_lushan]

Well, Takeda is still a strong clan even after Nagashino, they still have time to get a hand in Uesugi succesion crisis. It just that at the 1582 too many things happened at a year. I mean if Takeda hold out much longer maybe they can survive until Honnoji

[@Wolfram_von_Richthofen]

I mean, besides him screwing up his father's years long work in one day, he wasn't all that bad.

[@raf3025]

Katsuyori is responsible for the death of the legendaries Nobuharu Baba and Masakage Yamagata who were against the battle plan at Nagashino. And until the end he was foolish by not finding refuge at Ueda castle with the Sanadas.

[@jeffreygao3956]

Not really that foolish.

[@afternoonusual5196]

Whatever the defence is Katsuyori still allowed Nagashino to happen and that alone will always reflect negatively on him, the fact he went against his advisors who lets say we’re the closest thing he had to his father to guide him and then losing them in battle was foolish. He failed to understand when to stop pause and regroup compared to his father that did just that in his many campaign at Kawanakajima and against the Uesugi you could say that if he took that same approach against the Oda, you never know how things could happen but then again we are talking about ODA NOBUNAGA. If your advisors tell you to withdraw against him then you hell know it’s for a good reason.

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

I'm still not convinced that his leadership of his army in other cases makes up for a cavalry charge on a prepared position.

[@TheShogunate]

It is certainly something to ponder. I did read some bits that suggest he may not have entirely known how built up the Oda position really was.

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

@@TheShogunate That suggests extremely poor scouts. I don't know much about recon at the time. My theory is that the cavalry formation was too large to stop in time once the Takeda saw it. But I don't know how the numbers would work well enough to say if that was the case.

[@SUpersaiyajinjerkbag]

It's even more ridiculous when you consider that it was KAtsuyori; not Oda wwas outnumbered. Agincourt was less ridiculous (in it's premise) than this.

[@kuroakevizago]

Still waiting for you to tell the siege of osaka :"

[@radhiteaji631]

His other fatal blunder is to side with kagekatsu at otate rebellion, that turn hojo out of his favor, if he didn't interfere with the conflict maybe he still have a back up from the hojo so the fall of takeda won't be that easy

[@TheShogunate]

I was nearly going to add that detail in.

[@radhiteaji631]

@@TheShogunate the reason he support Kagekatsu also questionable. At first takeda act as mediator during the conflict but later decided to side with Kagekatsu while he still on diplomatic relations with the Hojo. Maybe he seek the assistance of the mighty retainers of Uesugi who mostly sided with Kagekatsu and see work with them is more benefiting than with the Hojo, which been forced to make peace to Kenshin when he invade Kanto and see the officers of Uesugi are mightier than the Hojo. Actually, both of them, Takeda and Uesugi are currently on war with the powerful Oda clan, and both of the clan are less stable than the Hojo during that time, who hold a strong grip at kanto with some minor resistance from the surrounding daimyos. The Uesugi most likely will be defeated by Oda after Otate, and i can't see how Kagekatsu faction will be able to push Oda back. I think it's better for Takeda to allying yourself with more stable Hojo clan than the shattered Uesugi clan. During invasion of Kai, according to some sources, Hojo also launch an attack to Kozuke, which makes the kai invasion looks really grim and makes Katsuyori general abandon him.

[@DBears1582]

Shingen's overprotectiveness made Katsuyori the man he is remembered today

[@42kellys]

I have read upon Katsujori earlier so I knew of his earlier victories and his achievements, too. He died at 36 which was a good age for a samurai to die but a sad end to him and his family and his clan. It is not my place to judge him. Gambles at times pay off and at other times they do not. His did not. I personally believe, if he had examined Oda Nobunaga his tactics and firearms a bit more closely, and perhaps he would have made a different decision. Also, his father withdrew from fights, so he could have as well. There was no shame in it, if it meant to save the whole army. Well, this is just my twopence on it.

[@Ivan-td7kb]

I feel that Takeda Shingen also deserves some blame for the defeat at Nagashino. His creation of a cavalry heavy army and his failure to predict the effectiveness of firearms, is a massive blunder on a strategic level.

[@guardiadecivil6777]

except shingen didn't just think his "heavy cavalry army" is just something he can smash into the enemy lines to win, he knew the great effectiveness of firearms against his army. he was one of the first ones to encounter and lose against a clan using them after all (eventually defeating said clan) and he also defeated Ieyasu at Mikatagahara even though they had the advantage in firearms. also cavalry itself has its advantages over firearms, theres a reason it took until the 20th century for them to be completely phased out

[@Ivan-td7kb]

@@guardiadecivil6777 I understand what you mean but that is exactly the flaw of his strategy, it requires the tactical brilliance of Takeda Shingen. He couldn’t imagine a world without him. His victory at Mikatagahara led him to underestimate the potential of firearm and he didn’t foresee the power of volley fire. If you look at the military history of Europe in parallel, firearms was one of the reasons heavy cavalry became obsolete.

[@main1033]

​​@@Ivan-td7kbThere were only a couple thousand gunmen out of a force of 30,000 men. The problem was that the Takeda charged a fortified position filled with enemies armed with spears, pikes , bows and guns. A well place arrow shot can dismount a calvary man

[@JoJoNion997]

the Black Sheep of Takeda and Katsuyori one of the most Mocked Daimyou next to Imagawa Yoshimoto, Saito Tatsuoki and Asakura Yoshikage

[@shinmentakezo6258]

Love from India ❤️❤️

[@anandgupta1989]

A mistaKe is a mistake which cant be sugarcoated many times Hideyoshi or Oda nobunaga retreated from major battles that never dented their image a good commander must know when to give battle and when to withdraw

[@jeffreygao3956]

Katsuyori was certainly not destitute of commanding ability but not on par with the legend Oda Nobunaga. It's like comparing the Duke of Wellington to James Wolfe.

[@-haclong2366]

There is this quote "You can make no mistakes and still lose", even the most competent general of Liechtenstein wouldn't be able to conquer Austria.

[@fabiozwei]

Big shoes to fill, maybe Shingen Takeda is way up there as a brilliant daimyo.

[@bullrunner5646]

Good video. No mention of Akita Kurosawa’s Kagemusha? BTW some of your videos are being stolen on Vimeo.

[@One007]

All this clan should have fight in one for all battle.😅

[@darthslain]

TDLR: it wasnt that katsuyori was that bad but that nobunaga was that good then

[@main1033]

No charging a fortified position that has nearly 2x more troops than you is bad

[@arielquelme]

On the contrary.. Takeda clan was not a paper tiger after Nagashino in contrary to popular belief They still strong, however, Katsuyori blunders keep piling up, from breaking the alliance with strong Honjo clan (causing the Tokugawa clan free to raids Takeda territories), and mismanagement that caused senior generals like Baisetdu anayama anf Nobutomo Akiyama rather surrendee to the Oda Historival records was harsh to Katsuyori for very good reason He was simply not good leader

[@Ehrle6969]

Oda was to op ask muskets😂

[@EkkoTheDrummer]

let em tell you , I had to fight this man and the tekada clan so much in samurai warriors 5, LOL

[@NapoleonAquila]

After watching Kagemusha and playing Samurai Warriors : still see him as a famous idiot in strategy

[@tenchimuyo69]

Katsuyori is an above average commander. But Nobunaga was an exceptional one.

[@steakdriven]

Yorishige married Shingen's sister in 1540...She bore him a single child, a boy, before he died two years later in 1542. Katsuyori's mother was the daughter of Yorishige's concubine born years beforehand; she was in no way shape or form biologically related to Shingen.

[@crazycasey1ify615]

He made some good strides but he made it more mistakes that lit it to the dental of takada

[@ptolemy008]

he was a lesser son of greater sires. he could not overcome the shadow left by his father which both the lion of sagami and the dragon of echigo did with respect to their great fathers.

[@Threewolfs-]

First out the gate 😜😝🤙🏼❤️🇺🇸🤠

[@kanetsugu100]

i agree that he was not a bad commander but definitely a stubborn one

[@leonidas231]

the whole taking the niece as a concubine was foreshadowing like a mofo

[@Infinitebrandon]

Once again, I know I'll love this before I see it. Anyone else remember shingen the ruler? Me and katsuyori won 🤙

[@steakdriven]

I always managed to beat that game before Shingen died

[@Infinitebrandon]

@@steakdriven that's pretty darn good. I don't see how that's possible for me but I believe you

[@steakdriven]

@@Infinitebrandon I guess I'll do a playthrough on video at some point to show off my strategy although I'm a bit Rusty

[@coryfice1881]

Takeda Katsuyori is the Darius III of his period.

[@user-ss8wh4kk3m]

In defense of Katsuyori he was a product of incest. He never had a chance.

[@g17yt99]

If he listen to masayuki and believe them he would still be alive

[@Hmong_Oni]

Battle of Nagashino is a good battle in Samurai Warriors: Spirit of Sanada

[@فيصلالحارثي-س7ف]

النار ماتعقب الا رماد

[@aarondemiri486]

god Sengoku jidai Japan as such awesome people

[@shirowolfanimator]

Why are your recent videos fundrasers

[@TheShogunate]

Linfamy and I have it planned to keep making them fundraisers until the duration of it ends

[@sirseegull]

Huh everyone just yapping. Prior to the battle 100% all samurai knew how effective firearms could be. No excuse. Besides that his smaller army simply charged a larger army that was entrenched with wooden stakes and walls. Come on guys that’s just basics warfare 101 the guy was dumb and prideful. Guy could have easily and surely had scouts like “hey they got a hell of a lot of firearms” or even launched a probing test attack nah just “charge”

[@MeloniMacWOKE-RIGHT]

Am I the only one that thinks mitsunari gets a bad rep

[@Alyoscha_TAHK]

No way moi Drug!! Money for what🤣

[@rafaeldoespiritosanto8440]

“In defence of this goofy ahh samurai that won’t be remembered in a while because it’s nation is just a anime land”

[@saemonno-suke9959]

there is no defense for someone who underestimated his opponents.

[@maximus0928]

You lost me at blaming the father. Ya he had been in some battle experience prior, but that just shows he can follow orders not that he has the ability to lead. He had a whole year before setting off on his campaign so the man had time. In the end he chose nagashino b/c he hadn’t done anything of significance. Not blaming the father. Man is still a fool. Didn’t know when he should and shouldn’t fight. I agree about the bad omen, taking your niece as a concubine is just wrong.

[@steakdriven]

Katsuyori got carried