In Defense of the F-104

========================
SUPPORT ME ON PATREON! / fightertales
Hellion's Website and Patreon:
www.ratsnest.me/
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Discord: / discord
===========================
Music Used:
The Chronicler “On The Brink” Fighter Tales Vol. 1 album out now!
/ on the brink: fighter ...
-Armory
-Deep Strike
-Interdiction
-M.A.D.
-On the Flight Deck
Karl Casey Music
===========================
REFERENCES:
1: Kocivar, Ben (October 6, 1964). "Collier Trophy". Look. Vol. 28, no. 20. p. 36. He calls his development plants 'skunk works'. There have been five of them - the first, an abandoned distillery.
2:www.916-starfighter.de/Joy%20....
3:www.airvectors.net/avf104_2.h...
4: a Special Correspondent (17 January 1958), "First Things First: On Not seeing the Sales Trees for the Reorganization Woods.", Flight, vol. 73, no. 2556, p. 72, retrieved 17 April 2024 via internet archive
5:www.916-starfighter.de/GAF_cr...
6: www.smithsonianmag.com/air-sp...
7: "ANG Heritage: Missions, Wars and Operations." Archived 26 November 2014 at the Wayback Machine ang.af.mil. Retrieved: 17 April 2024.
8: www.taipeitimes.com/News/feat...
9: www.key.aero/article/why-indi...
10: theaviationgeekclub.com/f-104...
11:"Lockheed's Defiance: A Right to Bribe?", Time magazine, August 18, 1975

[@fightertales]

How can such a controversial plane be so COOL LOOKING? ======================== SUPPORT ME ON PATREON! www.patreon.com/fightertales Hellion's Website and Patreon: www.ratsnest.me/ patreon.com/hellionmanor Discord: discord.gg/XFQPftSxNm =========================== Music Used: The Chronicler “On The Brink” Fighter Tales Vol. 1 album out now! kzbin.info/door/gnl... -Armory -Deep Strike -Interdiction -M.A.D. -On the Flight Deck Karl Casey Music

[@captwrecked]

We'd have had F35 by now up here if some journalist hadn't tried to pass off the lifetime cost estimate as the startup costs in 2010. The public ate it up and demanded a new contract competition. Just to get F35 15 years late. yay. And if you want an overflown Canadian aircraft, try the CT114 Tutor. lmao

[@protogenxl]

More importantly why does LazerPig have a Barrett and not an AWP?

[@thelastholdout]

Cool looking and with one of the coolest sci fi names ever. Thanks for making the video! I learned a lot about a plane I'd previously dismissed as disappointing.

[@A_Bunch_of_Onions]

@@captwreckedthe delay wasn’t necessarily a bad thing because we got the latest block of f-35s which has mild avionics improvements and newer engine that’s more efficient and requires less maintenance.

[@captwrecked]

@@A_Bunch_of_Onions Gave them more time to figure out how to give us A models with C landing gear and refuelling probes too. we don't do Boom refuelling up here.

[@RazerTheDuck]

mfw i suddenly fall into a *”temporary”* F-104 addiction and every channel starts posting about it

[@Dan86130]

that makes two of us

[@nickgadsen4029]

Loved the F-104 from the first time I saw it.

[@Lewd-Tenant_Isan]

I LOVE the starfighter :)

[@fightertales]

I see good opinions in this thread

[@Twhrit14]

I love the Starfighter. It’s like a Drag Car for the skies

[@VikingTeddy]

A Canadian goose will go through the engine, angrily look at its slightly singed feathers and then fuck you up.

[@petersmythe6462]

Had a stare down with one of these recently. It walked up hissing with 3 friends until it was about 8 inches from my knee. I looked down at it and said "you're a goose. What are you gonna do?" It proceeded to continue being mad before doing absolutely nothing.

[@VikingTeddy]

@@petersmythe6462 You got spared, one of its friends probably talked it down. Or you're naturally intimidating to birds. I've seen them win fights against people, they don't take prisoners.

[@thestarlightalchemist7333]

There's a reason we call them cobra chickens

[@spartancanuck]

I've been feeding them corn. Basically keeping them around as my personal security system.

[@jonmcgee6987]

The bit with LazerPig really cracked me up. I hope you guys cover the Victory Day Parade again this year. Assuming they do one and the amount of comedic content it provided.

[@nobeardthepirate8569]

Lazerpig does a cameo or two in Animarchy’s new video, too. This is a fun trend!

[@AB-bg7os]

Ew, so it was really him. Well, Im not subscribing now

[@coobk373]

L ​@@AB-bg7os

[@inquisitorbenediktanders3142]

Except for some reason he used an M82 Barret, which is an *anti-material* rifle. Should have used sth. like the m200 intervention. Maybe even an m2 browning.

[@Firebolt193]

Russia is apparently pulling frontline troops from Ukraine to march in the Victory Parade. Take from that what you will.

[@jonathan-rm4sk]

As a Canadian I can say we would retire the f-18 if the air force had the funding

[@fightertales]

Believe me, I know

[@AtholAnderson]

Look how long it took for us to retire the Sea King...I fear those Hornets are going to be made to endure for a while longer.

[@petrairene]

Man, Germany is still flying the Tornado and only in 2013 recently retired the last Phantoms. Our government only approved to replace the Tornados with 24 F35 because the Ukraine war put pressure on them to modernize the military. Germany has been flying the F104 in a fighter-bomber role, which is a complete joke, until 1991.

[@weldonwin]

Say it with me now, "FFFFFFFFFFFFUCK DIFENBAKER FOR CANCELLING THE ARROW!!!"

[@jonathan-rm4sk]

@@weldonwin I would love to but im a recovering mapleboo and though I love the arrow, doing so makes me cringe at the times I would call the f-35 "The Ford Pinto of fighter jets"

[@windwalker5765]

I'd say the biggest problem with the F-104 is the same problem as every fighter in the Century series: They were all standing next to the F-4 Phantom.

[@ottermanuk]

Why have many plane when one plane do trick?

[@newtypealpha]

I love the fact that they gave it a space-age name like the "starfighter." Seeing how, when you get down to it, a spaceship is just a shitty missile with air conditioning. By contrast, the F-104 was an excellent missile with shitty air conditioning.

[@ravener96]

This fan really blows well, but man im not getting any cooler back here!

[@RaderizDorret]

Kelly Johnson was so good at his job that one of his bosses said "That damned Swede can SEE AIR."

[@thestarlightalchemist7333]

Dale Earnhardt moment

[@SueDoeNimh]

It was like every Kelly Johnson plane. It was incredible at what it was designed to do, but that comes at a cost. Especially when considering the limitations of technology at the time.

[@fightertales]

This

[@SliceofLife7777]

The Starfighter is what it is. Designed in the 50's, it was the Airforce's hot rod. It was designed to scramble, hit 25,000 ft in a minute, vector in on a target 150 miles away, kill it, and be wheels down back at base, all in 20 minutes or less. Nothing else did that at the time. It first flew in the late 50's. The fact that it served into the 21st century says it all. Cheap, fast, and unforgiving. Even by modern fighter standards, the 104 is almost unmatchable in acceleration and top speed. Not bad for an obsolete 1950's jet.

[@reedman0780]

The 104 is a very nice aircraft, and it really looks like a dart, and its very similar to the MiG-21. Lots of variants, designed to go up, kill, then come back down with just enough bingo fuel. Some 21s are still serving till this day iirc. If the 104 had better low speed maneouverability I think it could still be kinda viable for us 3rd world countries but with the massive power, came the cost of tons of fuel burning

[@amhuman5138]

@@reedman0780 Yeah Romania still operates some 21s, maybe some other countries

[@Skaldewolf]

So, basically a manned, reusable SAM. And the Germans turned it into a manned, reusable cruise missile.

[@blankityblankblank2321]

@@Skaldewolf I think it would be wrong to just say "the germans used it for the wrong purpose" and leave it there. Even the US takes platforms for one purpose and use them for other purposes. It could be a waste of money to not do so, especially when you don't have the military funding of the US.

[@Skaldewolf]

@@blankityblankblank2321 I fear I was a little bit too polemic. Let me elaborate: The starfighter was designed as a low-cost, high-performance interceptor, to quickly climb to altitude, bounce Soviet bombers and then return. To be able to do this (with 50s technology, so no fancy sensors and avionics), the Starfighter was a highly specialized platform. Low-level and low-speed performance was not a requirement and US pilots were skilled enough to handle this powerful machine. Records show that it performed well in its intended role. It was a decent, albeit short-legged recon-bird and did quite well as an air-superiority fighter. Using it as a naval bomber was pushing it, but could be done in the hands of a skilled pilot. Flying nap-of-earth over German hills with bombs strapped on is out of the question. With a high stall-speed and a low angle of attack that kind of flying is extremely difficult. Now add in a German training-doctrine still firmly rooted in WWII, where you churned out high numbers of adequate pilots in anticipation of high combat-attrition, and you end up with lots of holes in the landscape.

[@vmm9949]

In RDAF service, a more apt aircraft for the title of "Widowmaker" would be the F-100. F-100 Losses 1959-1982 (38) F-104 Losses 1964-1986 (12)

[@gundam-4569]

Pog Denmark reference

[@Solnoric]

Yeah the super saber was another very unforgiving aircraft

[@casualinsanity4940]

The trinity of military history chanells rides well today

[@JakeTheTankmaster]

battalion wars pfp🔥🔥

[@JacatackLP]

Jesus Christ that’s a core memory unlocked. I remember playing that on the Wii

[@landonluebke7627]

Him, lazarpig, and FE right?

[@user-lf6hm5cz9k]

@@landonluebke7627 I see the third as hardthrashher. Who is FE?

[@landonluebke7627]

@@user-lf6hm5cz9k Fat electrician, should check him out

[@cjmanson5692]

In regards to the bribery scandal, when it came to Japan's part, it was not limited to the Starfighter alone. It also involved the Lockheed L-1011 Tri-Star airliner for All Nipon Airways and, believe it or not, the Yakuza.

[@aregularperson7573]

And a ultranationalist Japanese P@rn star who straight up became a kamikaze and flew a plane straight into a yakuza bosses house for braking the samurai code

[@jonathanfrank1189]

It also resulted in the last actual Japanese Kamikaze attack in history.

[@Cooldude-ko7ps]

@@jonathanfrank1189 link?

[@WoobooRidesAgain]

@@jonathanfrank1189 By a pornography actor, no less.

[@WoobooRidesAgain]

Also, some more notes to add: * The Japanese part of the bribery scandal involved numerous high-ranking officials, including the head of the JASDF, the Finance Minister and even the Prime Minister. Said Prime Minister was later arrested, charged and convicted of violating foreign exchange control laws and sentenced to four years in prison, although he never saw actual jail time before he died. Getting into why that was the case is a whole other kettle of fish. * Lesser known but also quite serious, the scandals resulted in a constitutional crisis in the Netherlands. Prince Bernard was charged with involvement in the affair, but his wife, Queen Juliana, threatened that if Bernard was prosecuted, she'd abdicate the throne. Bernard didn't see time in court, but his reputation was ruined. * Kelly Johnson himself almost resigned from disillusionment and disgust when he found out the news, which would have added enormously to the woes of Lockheed, who were teetering on the brink of collapse even before the news of the scandals broke out.

[@dragonsq117]

I remember that the Italian pilots of the Spillone (Italian nickname for the 104) spoke really well about it, I remember that they said that it was an airplane that needed all your attention and didn't want any kind of error, but it was also an airplane that gave you a lot of satisfaction. Italy had even upgraded the 104 to be able to mount the Sparrow missiles. Well it remained in service for a long time and did not cause all the problems that the Germans had. The Spillone is very respected in Italy and those who speak badly of the 104 are very influenced by the Germans. I remember in 2022 hearing that the Italian 104 pilots of the 23em Gruppo in 2000 (I don't remember the year) had managed to practice with the German MiG-29 pilots, and had even managed to defeat them. I respect it a lot as an aircraft, I find it an excellent interceptor fighter, and a nice rocket.

[@15degreepitch18]

I had a grandfather in the RCAF. Thousands of hours flying the CF-104 and multiple accidents in them. Never once did any of them call the 104 "widowmaker". In fact, most of them loved to fly the plane because, and I quote, "it was just a fun time". All of them had stories about losing friends around them. But the thing was a lot of these crashes came from human error or "controlled flights into terrain". The one thing I wish I could have asked them was how they fit their massive titanium balls in the cockpits

[@5t3v0esque]

You guys all coordinated today, didnt you? I appreciate the depth of content.

[@Silverhks]

Sure seems like it. I'm calling it NAFO Saturday

[@isaac6077]

@@Silverhksbased

[@richt-tb1sf]

​@@isaac6077nothing based about globalism

[@karbohydrates1842]

Who else was there who posted regarding the starfighter? I'd love to add some more channels to my subscriptions.

[@Appletank8]

Not Starfighter, I believe they were talking about the guys who run the NAFO Podcast and are friends with one another.

[@petrairene]

In Germany the many losses were mostly due to insufficient pilot and maintenance training and the fact that in the early days many of the planes were not kept in hangars but outside in our bad weather. The losses got significantly less once these problems were corrected.

[@cavalierliberty6838]

Typical German "quality"

[@JMTrof117]

BANG! "God Damn't missed the fucker!" That and the bit at the end with Lazerpig were perfect, Falcon :D Seriously, now, enjoyed the look at the F-104. Always has been a lovely and very 'jet age' looking plane. I've always had a soft spot for its camouflaged colored version from the Luftwaffe. Appreciate the insight into the losses of the West Germans and how training played a role in that. It's something you don't hear talked about with F-104. The F-104 pilot that was shot down by the PLAAF fighter; how long was he a 'guest' of the PRC? It'd be interesting to read more about PLAAF operations in Vietnam. I would love to see a video on the MiG-23. It's one of those Soviet jets that I sort of dig the looks for, but I don't know a whole lot about it other than it was considered a pretty poor aircraft. Great work as always, Falcon :)

[@TDOBrandano]

In italian service the unofficial name of the F104 for the crew was "Lo Spillone", The Big Needle. Apparently, by talking with an ex pilot, the name for the ground crew was "Lo Spaccaculi", the ass buster, because of the very sharp wing edges that would cause a lot of damage to careless bystanders. The Italian F104's served well past their time, but there was nothing that could replace them in the role of scramble ready fighters. In a country that at the time essentially bordered with several URSS aligned neightbours being able to go from cold to in the air in 3 minutes was more important than high agility and longer endurance. And the later Italian built variants fixed a few issues that plagued the early 104's, mainly by adding two ventral fins, fixing some fault that would cause asymmetric flap deployment and improving the avionics. Legend says that the ASA prototype, when testing the new doppler radar, managed to get a lock on a van speeding on a highway.

[@Recordspin]

“Should have put an IFF system in this piece of junk. Should’ve built it to turn too.” My sister in steel, it’s an F-104. The only people in Strangereal capable of that feat are the fucking Belkans, and only if you agree to being replaced by a fucking V2 warhead!

[@warmachine5835]

Trigger's different.

[@arandomboot598]

@@warmachine5835trigger will roll up in a 50’s aircraft, kick ass, kill an experimental drone fighter, then fuck off without any explanation

[@spazzey0]

there are concepts that could've, maybe, feasibly made it a better turner, but only slightly, anymore and the starfighter loses its novelty, t-tail, inlet cones, stubby trapezoidal wings, all or most of it goes unfortunately ( accidentally replied to the wrong person last time sorry for the repost )

[@quarreneverett4767]

It got uogrades in other countries. Was shut down before the creator got to add what he wanted. For example one variation he wanted was a 0 take off run mod. Which germany did make happen

[@Apollo_1641]

I'll always hold a grudge against Lockheed and their shoddy ahh lawn dart. Not because it was a "deathtrap", but because it robbed us of the Grumman F11F-1F. RIP Super Tiger.

[@stickiedmin6508]

Lockheed on the other hand, *_never_* missed a chance to give Grumman a good kicking. Clearly they had a sizeable grudge too...

[@alexandercain8904]

It was thought that an upward launching ejector seat wouldn't get the pilot clear of the 104's tall T-tail, especially at high speed. It was thought that the downward launch would prevent the "rapid unscheduled disassembly" of the pilot. Since it was designed for use at high altitude and zero-zero ejection seats weren't available during it's design, it was inconceivable that a jet would need ejection so close to the ground.

[@isaac6077]

Your going the same speed as the jet so u just have to over come drag. Which could be easy if u have her cut the engine

[@20chocsaday]

I wondered how Kelly Johnson could design a plane powered by turbojets in 1940 but discovered Frank Whittle had patented it in January 1930,

[@djbiscuit1818]

​@@isaac6077 well yes, but believe it or not a pilot and ejection seat are VERY draggy, especially compared to a 104 and especially at Mach 1+. You also have limitations on how hard you can eject the pilot upwards, or they don't have a spine when it's over. So yes, you "just" have to be up faster than drag pulls backwards, but that's easier said than done.

[@erikgustafson9319]

Finally I will get justice for my boy

[@locchieppese]

In Italy we call it informally "spillone" meaning "pin"/"tiepin"

[@brokenursa9986]

Look, if the F-104 is good enough to successfully intercept the USS Enterprise (NCC-1701), then it's gotta be a pretty damn good plane.

[@jamespocelinko104]

"Darts helped win a lot of wars." -James May (paraphrased)

[@Kattbirb]

I also have an unreasonable appreciation for the F-104 Starfighter. It's performed exactly as asked, although that unfortunately wasn't what was needed. My favorite nickname for the Starfighter was "Erdnagel". Literally translates to "Earth Nail", but it more accurately it's "Tent Peg". Speaking of favorites, one of my favorite things about Kelly Johnson's planes is that most of them look like they belong in Battletech.

[@thebudgieadmiral5140]

My granddad was an aeronautical engineer at a university in west germany at the time and claimed to have inspected the component that controls the nozzle for the F-104s engine. He acclaimadly opened up this box of goodies against orders from on high and found that the wires inside were all not insulated. Which meant that, if the jet flew through clouds, moisture would get into the box and cause it to short out, opening the nozzle and leading to a loss of thrust and, likely, the aircraft. He told me this little stunt apparently got him fired from that job and he moved on to work at an airline instead. Though, if true, there's a decent chance this was not even Lockheed's fault and could have been corner-cutting by the west german manufacturers as well. I say acclaimed because, sadly, he's not longer with us and some of his tales were hard to believe or somewhat contradictory.

[@Lord_Foxy13]

When the airport in Ottawa was opened, some 104's were sent from the US to help celebrate, And during the flyover one went super sonic and shattered every window on the building

[@Lewd-Tenant_Isan]

YES YEEEEEEES FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THE F104 MORE THAN JUST "HAHA SHIT PLANE CAUSE GERMANY KEPT CRASHING AND CANT TUUUUURN"

[@fightertales]

Someone has to.

[@FlybywireTheGerman]

Hey we were in rebuilding the luftwaffe we were not ready for so an advance jet Jett but the F-104G teacher us and than when the F-4 came we were ready

[@Lv-sl3rm]

I mean... Chris on Military Aviation History talked about that a long time ago but guess that didn't happen.

[@MaticTheProto]

@@FlybywireTheGermanahem… lobbying aka. corruption…

[@Lewd-Tenant_Isan]

@@Lv-sl3rm ooh i'll be sure to check his video out, wasnt aware of him until now

[@cascadianrangers728]

If I could own and fly any jet I choose, id probably pick one of these or maybe a f106 delta dart

[@fightertales]

Good taste

[@jimnicholas7334]

0:19 You can hear the bullet impacting and the sonic boom it makes *before* you hear the gunshot. Amazing attention to detail!

[@fightertales]

Glad you caught it!

[@MaticTheProto]

Lmao love the lazerpig joke

[@erikgustafson9319]

Also the Canadians primarily used it in both conventional and tactical nuclear strike roles at low level

[@neroclaudius7284]

I love how Martin baker did so poorly in aircraft manufacturing that they had to swap over to making ejection seats instead.

[@stickiedmin6508]

Part of it was just bad luck. Their MB 3 and MB 5 designs were pretty incredible fighters. They just arrived at the wrong time.

[@freedmen123]

Yeah, honestly the whole Witwenmacher deal was more a case of the Luftwaffe following in the long German tradition of misclassifying an interceptor as a multirole bomber and overloading the airframe to the point of endangering the pilot.

[@nomar5spaulding]

The 104 is my favorite of the Century Series. I love the look, and it is just speed incarnate. My dad loves the 105. More bombs than even God can hold, and fast enough on the deck to outrun the Devil.

[@acarrillo8277]

My grandfather worked for Lockheed as a ramp mechanic during the F-104 development program. He loved his time with the plane, though in fairness it nearly took his friend's life and failing that nearly took his arm. His friend was under the nose working on something and my grandfather heard a series of noises that he knew were coming from the ejection system. Noticing that the safety pins for said system were not in he immediately knocked his friend to the side. Good thing too because the seat went off at that moment missing his friend but cutting a gash in my grandfather's arm. He kept the arm and it healed quite well, he wore that scar with pride as his friend lived to go home to his family.

[@o.m.5269]

My country used both Canadair and Lockheed produced F-104G's & TF-104G's, CF-104 & CF-104D, from around 1965 to 1986, with surplus G's variants being transferred to Taiwan. With us modifying the CF-104's to our standards Said country is Denmark. We had a few F-104 crashes (12), but we only lost 6 pilots, due to factors such as only allowing experienced pilots to fly it and the Martin-Baker seats. Anyway yapping aside!!! Love your content Falcon ❤

[@joeblow9657]

IMO the F-104 was a decent idea as an intereptor/boom and zoom aircraft but using it for low level ground attack was a terrible idea and frankly, most of what it did could've be done better by F-4 Phantoms if countries had been willing to spend the money. Also, did @Falcon's Fighter Tales try to MK Ultra Laser Pig?

[@richardvernon317]

As a Tactical Nuclear Fighter Bomber it was more than good enough. NATO's war plan when this aircraft was bought was called Tripwire. If NATO went to war with the Warsaw Pact, it was going to be all out Nuclear weapon chuck fest from the git go. The NATO countries that bought the aircraft were not going to be fighting limited wars in the Far East or Africa!!! When things changed in 1968 with the Flexible Response policy and the fact that a conventional war would have to be fought is when the NATO countries started looking for a replacement, but that took some time.

[@countcampula]

Did not expect laserpig, I laughed pretty hard

[@petrairene]

There is no need to defend the F104. It was designed as a specialist, a high altitude intercepter of bombers at a time before intercontinental missles when bombers at high altitude were the main threat. It was built to be fast, with a high climb rate, it has no weight carrying capacity and it has a large turn radius because it didn't need them for it's mission. It's not the 104s fault that later people tried to use it as a bomber or fighter, with rather underwhelming success. It was never built with strafing targets on the ground or carrying bombs in mind. That's like hitching a Thoroughbred race horse to a plough and then complaining that it's a shitty horse. In fact, NASA used it for exeriments and as a chase airplane quite successfully.

[@brainyskeletonofdoom7824]

Italy used it as a bomber without any particular issue (not that they were very effective)

[@petrairene]

@@brainyskeletonofdoom7824 I heard a podcast wtih a German Starfighter pilot who explained that due to the high speed bombing was pretty inaccurate even with best effort. Plus due to the tiny wings it couldn't carry much ordnance.

[@richardvernon317]

When it was procured it was never going to Strafe anything!!! The primary ground attack mission was to lob a Tactical Nuke somewhere in Warsaw Pact Territory from Low Level. The High Level Air Defence Mission was a Peacetime Air Policing one. In West German from 1963 onwards, the Surface to Air Missile was King!!! Had WWIII broken out, the whole of the airspace above West Germany from 10,000 feet upwards became a Nike Hercules Missile Engagement Zone with a belt of SAM Batteries running down the centre of the country from Denmark to the Swiss Boarder. 40 miles form the Inner German Boarder was the HAWK belt, which again ran north to south which provided a Low Level Missile Engagement Zone from 200 to 12,000 feet. The only air defence missions in war time were low level defence of targets behind the Hawk batteries and below 10,000 feet. Not that it would have mattered, because until 1968, NATO's war plan was all out Nuke chuck fest from the git go. In the Nuclear Strike Role the F-104 was actually quite good. Very fast at low level with a very good ride due to the small wings.

[@tahu033]

Volunteer at a Canadian museum with a CF-104 here! One of the other volunteers was a starfighter pilot and later instructor for the RCAF, he hates it when people refer to it as the widowmaker. What I find funny about him is that he flew that mach 2 plane for the majority of his flying career but now at the museum (our starfighter is a static display) all his flying is now done in a SE5A, which tops out at around... 150km/h... Rumour has it that he enjoys flying the SE5A more though! (Although I haven't personally asked him directly)

[@williamrocchia2728]

Loved the video falcon,the spillone the italian nickname for the Starfighter is still iconic in italy aviation culture,and also i suggest for whoever love the Starfighter the video F 104 storia di un mito a documentary made by the Italian air force,at the beginning they interview one of the italian test pilot that tried the Starfighter in the 1960s,could be interesting, anyway love your passion for aviation Falcon keep going!!✈️✈️

[@jonathanfrank1189]

You know I feel rather vindicated. I’ve been explaining to my chums for years that the F-104 was a plane that demanded respect From it’s pilots. Oh and that take into account it’s a 1950s design that was a first generation super sonic aircraft. She got the bad rep due to the high landing speed and the original ejection seat

[@axialcompressorturbojet]

Great video! I totally agree that the F104 had its short comings but over-all was a pretty decent aircraft that fullfilled its general roles well, especially with it being used so much and being put even into ground-attack roles. Would love to see you cover the Mig-23 btw, I'll stay tuned :)

[@KF99]

22:18 And I can guess why Spain had never lost a Starfighter… Because some of their pilots probably flew I-16s until late 1950s. If you can fly I-16 - you can fly anything.

[@lmcg9904]

Geez, lazerpig is showing up in everyone's videos. I love it! Also love how unhinged he is, lol.

[@Twhrit14]

I’ve been waiting for this Video! Thanks Falcon!

[@fightertales]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@mindaugasbarkauskas9894]

F-104 is the best thing ever because so years ago me and my dad built and painted a model of one.

[@HardThrasher]

Ah P1 my beloved

[@alvinoflys7504]

Recently lost my grandfather who flew CF-86’s and CF-104’s as part of 439 Squadron “Fangs of Death” in Ottawa, Canada then England and France and finally Germany after being disbanded in late ‘63 and reformed early ‘64. Retired Brig-Gen Paul Argue. He knew a few pilots who died during training. My mum remembers those as sad days around the house and bases. He called them “Darts” and adamantly detested it’s description as a “Widow Maker”, he always maintained that you just simply needed to be better than your instincts, something he admitted is very difficult for pilot breeds. We still have his flight log detailing training missions with nuclear bombs (can’t remember if they were B-43’s or B-57’s). Really interesting man as he was once the youngest licensed pilot in Canada which greatly helped his introduction into the military after years of reading about WW2 aces as a young guy but always made it known he was willing to do his duty yet didn’t like the idea of hurting people. Retired and operated a helicopter flight training school. His son (my uncle) carried the mantle and flew CF-18 sorties with 441 Squadron “Silver Fox” during Operation Echo in Kosovo. They don’t make ‘em like they used to.

[@connarcomstock161]

*USAF* "Hey, Canada, you guys dumped that Arrow thing, want some 104s? *RCAF* "Nah bro, we'll take some of those 101s..." *USAF* "Uhm...k...why do you have an order in for 104s?" *RCAF* "Sure looks like a ground attack aircraft to me!" *USAF* "What the fu-" *RCAF* *STREAKS IN AT 100 FEET OFF THE GROUND*

[@mastathrash5609]

I'm just glad that you're doing a video on it, troubled as it may have been it's one of my all time favorite jets since I was a kid.

[@user-pp1ni2jy3f]

The F-104 was in use for many NATO countries for over 40 years, that speaks volumes. Designed as a '1 trick pony' it adapted darn well to it's new duties in it's deployment.

[@rydersanderson8225]

Thank you for taking the time to talk about Starfighters in Canadian service, I notice their history is often overlooked. You may find this interesting: During the almost 25 years that the RCAF operated the Starfighter, accumulating nearly 600,000 hours of flight time, 37 pilots were killed. Of those 37, only 4 deaths can be directly attributed to the failure of aircraft systems. ALL other Canadian servicemen whose lives were claimed by this aircraft, can have their cause of death traced back to pilot inattention. Anyways, I love your videos dude, and I especially appreciate you talking about my favorite plane :)

[@fightertales]

Happy to be of service and thanks for watching!

[@jts0221]

Great video man, keep it up

[@nickorlove7848]

Your videos are rapidly creating a massive interest in planes for me. Always had a bit of interest, but these videos are so good and interesting!

[@frankieM_]

Honestly, when you mentioned the unrecoverable flatspins, i was hoping you'd show the video of Chuck Yeager getting his F-104 into a flatspin from 100,000ft and the way he nearly recovered from it using his drag chute

[@mgweible8162]

Imo the 104 was great at what it was designed for. Flying fast, climbing like a homesick angel, and launching missiles at bombers. I think the problem was that the controlling users were asking too much of the airframe.

[@musewolfman]

The image at 20:25 has been my phone's lock screen for about two years, now. It's just so damn cool.

[@CaptainBanjo-fw4fq]

I did some research into the F-104 for a paper I wrote at uni. The problem with the F-104, as I saw it, was the poor ergonomics coupled with high landing airspeed and the angle of attack issues you mentioned. Not a forgiving plane for rookies.

[@trail_mix24]

I used to work at an air museum, and one of the other volunteers was an ex West German F-104 pilot. He was the coolest dude to talk with. He explained how awesome it was to fly in such great detail. I miss talking with him, i hope he's still around

[@Lukeee91]

Gonna spin my Robert Calvert - Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters record after this! Don't know what kind of music you like yourself, but Robert Calvert being a crucial part of Hawkwind's history makes it all that more interesting to me! And I love psychedelic rock otherwise too! This album having other legendary musicians on it like Lemmy Kilmister and Nick Turner just crowns the work. Chuck Yeager ejecting in the movie The Right Stuff also spotted.

[@casematecardinal]

Just worth mentioning the f model sabre could chase down a mig in the climb. But the real killer app was of course its advanced gun sight especially towards the end of the war.

[@OmEGa56858]

In greece the f104 was nicknamed "crybaby" due to its unique sound. The type operated here from 1963-1993. We recieved 150 aircraft in total (some were only used for spare parts) while losing 21 of them. We even tried fitting them with laser guided bombs.

[@fightertales]

Thanks for the info!

[@chedrw]

I love the F-104, glad your doing a vid on it

[@wombatgirl997]

These first post-war jets are my favorite period of aircraft. They're objectively horrible, but at the end of the day nobody really knew what they were supposed to be building yet. We ended up with some WW2 fighter planes with jet engines, and some rediculous technology demonstraters. None of them flew all that well since we didn't fully understand aerodynamics yet.

[@lord_o_muppet]

You nafo crew, the pig and animarchy, knew what yall were doing when uploading at the exact same bloody time, love it

[@joevaccaro6655]

Love the video :)

[@josecoronadonieto6911]

During a landing in spanish service, one F-104 collided through an electric pole with one of it's wings, cutting it in half, denting the wing slightly only to be repaired later and flown just a week later, i believe they called that specific plane, "the razor" but im not sure.

[@fightertales]

I'll have to look into that one!

[@spartancanuck]

Key detail missed about Canada's Starfighters: their role wasn't just ground attack, but low-level tactical nuclear strike. That was a lot of blasting across Germany at tree-top levels rehearsing to lob toss a little bucket of instant sunshine through the Fulda Gap.

[@BensonInABox]

Good work. Subscribed.

[@fightertales]

Thanks G!

[@mphelps7919]

Hi Falcon. I'm nearing the end of Kelly Johnson's autobiography and he too attributes many of the F-104's "incidents" to lack of sufficient training. Not surprising that he would say that, but he makes his point well, and so do you. I'm sure you've read it but I'm really enjoying it.

[@fightertales]

I have not, it's on my list!

[@mclovinU2night]

Lazerpig you were just a little off to the left

[@tomaskolarik6114]

Thank you, wonderfull video.

[@ColOddball27]

The Mod for Xenonauts 1 that lets you throw F-104s at UFOs has some pretty funny flavor text in the Encyclopedia for the 104

[@TheSpaseDestroyeR]

Great introduction with LazerPig, will be waiting for the combined video on the Mig-23 (allegedly)

[@ironwolf2173]

This was a great video. Hoping to see one on the F 15. Probably one of the best aircraft we ever produced

[@normalplayer7377]

After your MiG-23 video, would a Tomcat one be in order?

[@BrockvsTV]

I am excited for this. Thank you for the history

[@fightertales]

Pleasure!

[@VF5SS]

I watched this entire video and didn't learn a single thing about refueling, poopie suits, or corn detasseling!

[@Wyvern1-1]

heard a rumor that a JASDF F-104J claimed a “kill” on a F-15 during exercise, not sure if anyone heard this rumor too

[@mattshallenberger9676]

I can never see this plane and NOT hear the refueling theme from the Starfighters movie (as immortalized by MST3K). It is just...seared... into my brain.

[@foxophonist4542]

Also in the note of the German F-104, I’m a little surprised you did not talk about the CCV variant, I know it was an attempt to make it less stable. but was this more well cope than helping with aerodynamics of the aircraft

[@sklaWlivE]

kinda want a sequel to this where it's the Falcon and the 'Pig, drunkenly reviewing episodes of Sex & the City.

[@abukharan5774]

Good stuff

[@fred166]

Great video as always sir, shame about the Calvert/Hawkwind slander tho lol

[@sr7129]

I care about cool factor as much as effectiveness. In that the F-104 shines

[@foxyfoxington2651]

18:50 It was their dealing with the Yakuza that would really get an electric sign smashed over their heads.

[@burtbacarach5034]

Dad was USAF Enlisted and we lived in Germany from 68-73.I remember reading in the Stars and Stripes that the German Air Force had just lost their 101st Starfighter and the 96th pilot.This seemed impossible to young me and I asked Dad if this could be correct.He said yes and I asked him how could it be possible?He just said that the Luftwaffe or whatever they were called in those days were using the planes wrong.And I guess maybe they were.I always loved the looks of the Starfighter,Dad called it the "Missle with a man in it".There's one on static display in a town nearby,still looks amazing.

[@federicocaputo7265]

In Italy the latest version the F104 S originally was designed like 2 aircraft with the same shape, 1 interceptor with the avionics for AIM7 and late with ASA and ASA-M with Aspide and one like nuclear intruder/ ground attack, this ended service with the tornado.

[@AonghasMcTavish]

As a Canadian, i can confirm that the conditions over Canada can be extremely hazardous to aircraft of any kind. Overflying our aircraft has been a result of overly cautious aircraft procurement after the disaster John Diefenbaker unleashed upon us with tge cancellation of the Avro Arrow.

[@blackopscw7913]

Finally someone agrees with me! I have been in defense of the Starfighter for like 6 years.

[@noahbrown6018]

As soon as the video started I thought, lazerpig would love this. Then boom.

[@darkstar453]

any airplane in the NASA colours never fails to look cool as hell

[@mitchconner403]

I think you made some great points here. Specifically, the lack of modern safety equipment causing the large amounts of crashes. More safety equipment equals less crashes for ANY plane. This is similar to before cars were required to have seatbelts. For example, there is the difference between a car with a seatbelt, and a car without a seatbelt If you get some statistics from before seatbelts were invented then you would notice a large increase in car crash injuries and fatalities. After seatbelts were invented injuries and fatalities for EVERY CAR decreased. Nobody was pointing to the model of a car saying, “See look how many people were injured by that 1930s Ford! Look at the big number! This car is a death trap” But if a seatbelt was installed on that car. The numbers would be lower making it not a “death trap”. I think what Lazer pig and other haters of the F-104 are doing a statistical fallacy, “correlation does not causation” Just because the F-104 has a high amount of casualties does not mean it is entirely the F-104’s fault. What about the pilot error, what about a maintenance error, what about “not having a fly by wire system”, you cited that Canada does overfly their aircraft, and many other reasons for the high crash rate that are independent of the type of aircraft. This is a hot take and I like it.

[@fightertales]

These are the comments that make my day

[@PBOperator]

loved the boing reference with @LazerPig at 0:18 lmao

[@lynchkid003]

Loved that LazerPig Cameo

[@AtholAnderson]

I know you've probably got a whole lot lined up already, but at some point, an over view video on the US 'Century Series' jets would be great.