In defense of the state flags

[@matterwiz1689]

I like how this is the video equivalent of a strongly worded letter

[@kyle857]

I like how he is wrong.

[@pappy2690]

In what way? ​@@kyle857

[@pappy2690]

Are you going to elaborate or just leave a useless complaint?

[@BuildersSite]

@@kyle857 How is he wrong?

[@matterwiz1689]

@@pappy2690 mfs will see a comment that starts with "I like how" and think it's a complaint

[@khurultai]

most aggressive Premodernist video we've seen yet

[@doctornietzsche6723]

Yes, the dude was very riled up about flags. It was a wonder to behold!

[@brucea3103]

@@doctornietzsche6723 Just wait till his next video where he rages about currency design.

[@proxyprox]

​@@brucea3103What's wrong with them?

[@chrisconway9959]

I’m here for it

[@pointlesscine]

This is the KZbin nerd beef I needed in my life

[@javiksi]

Completely true

[@TwinTweaking]

Nerds calling other nerds, nerds, is the best.

[@hugol9927]

i knew nothing about state flags and the enthusiasm had me glued to the screen for 1.5h

[@brycew5846]

Something I’m realizing is how much I appreciate you adding photo and video of these flags waving and in use. I found it much easier to appreciate the more ‘complicated’ flags when I wasn’t staring closely at a sterile PNG.

[@dashkem]

I’m realizing that the minimalist flag-redesign punditry I’ve been just swallowing for a long time is an offshoot of the .jpg era when simple flags could be recreated better by chronically online netizens without going through the effort of contacting any historical societies and therefore the “simple is better” argument is actually just borne of laziness

[@Wasabiofip]

​@@dashkemI think the simplification phrased as "a child should be able to draw it" is really about "I, an adult, want your flag to be simpler so I can draw it and feel better about myself for pointlessly being able to draw one more flag"

[@senoraxolotl4597]

I came for a gentle argument for state flags, I stayed for the dismantling of vexillological principles

[@reallifeistoflat]

he didn't dismantle anything. he got mad that people aren't excited about the history of the flag and then misunderstood design as a concept.

[@senoraxolotl4597]

@@reallifeistoflat He did point out some of the flaws with the popular criteria for a good flag, so it’s a little bit of a dismantling

[@reallifeistoflat]

@@senoraxolotl4597 they aren't flaws. What he pointed out was something which is said by the pamphlet. These are good design principles but not laws or rules. They are good suggestions to get towards good design. The reason why they talk about flags that break the rules is because good design can deliberately break the rules. I imagine they would also agree that Iran has a good flag. But it was done with a purpose and with thought to why and how it was done. That's the ultimate point of design, to have purpose behind choices. Him not understanding design is not dismantling design

[@senoraxolotl4597]

@@reallifeistoflat I suppose it comes down to whether we believe his points were accurate. In my point of view, if the guidelines for good flag design can be broken while still resulting in a good flag, then they are flawed, and he revealed such flaws here. But I certainly get where you’re coming from

[@_tonypacheco]

​@@senoraxolotl4597it helps to think of the guidelines as just that. If you're designing a brand-new flag, and you try to stick to the guide, you're much more likely to end up with a good design than if you break them all. That's the purpose of the guide.

[@julia.carino]

Brb going to start calling everything a “stunning graphic element”

[@kanyda1]

I found this to be a stunning written comment.

[@joshuaolian1245]

@@kanyda1wow this is a stunning written reply

[@prismarinium]

I haven't noticed before but the effort you've put into the subtitles is seriously impressive, your using parenthesis and everything over here. Its a small thing but it really shows how much thought you put into these videos.

[@devin8315]

it's literally called a *palm*etto- little palm tree

[@_tonypacheco]

Oh shit, id never heard the word before and thought he was saying "palm meadow" haha

[@dasselbe2521]

Figured as much, we call them palm-lings near the upstate.

[@themilkssiah]

The "Any child should be able to draw this from memory" brings my Canadian heart pain. It's a fairly simple design yet I do not know a single adult Canadian who can draw a proper maple leaf

[@CarrotConsumer]

You can probably get pretty close though.

[@pr0xykill978]

The strength of the design though means that if you put anything even vaguely leaf shaped between two red bars everybody will think "Canada"

[@jacob5395]

​@@pr0xykill978Whoops, confused Idaho for Utah.

[@nullus8717]

"Good Flag, Bad Flag" is the second-worst thing a guy named Ted K. has mailed out to people.

[@menoflowicz]

First :P

[@Darkfawfulx]

@@menoflowicz He didn't mail out his ideas. Not en mass.

[@Darkfawfulx]

@SkeletonWord I know that. When he says first he means that's the flag pamphlet is worse than the Unibomber. I reference the fact Industrial Society was only mailed to the one newspaper to continue the joke. I know the history of the Unibomber and I am not gen z.

[@garfocusalternate]

Hey, that's not fair. At least Industrial Society and its Future had some decent ideas.

[@dajjukunrama5695]

So I’m supposed to hate nature? Ok boomer

[@kadmii]

"they do shading, you know, cause it's art" subtle shade there

[@zenleek2129]

Subtle shade… Y’know, because it’s art

[@analander9222]

​@@zenleek2129I agree, this video is art.

[@grandpamao7271]

As a marylander, the proper way to display our flag is in the form of a set of overalls and a garish red white black and gold top hat worn while attending a ravens game

[@ThiccKimmyGibbler]

with old bay all over the front

[@ChrisNoonetheFirst]

With a Natty Bo in one hand and a bag of Utz in the other

[@dontworry1302]

@frandpamao7271 Is being sober an option or completely off the table?

[@monkofdarktimes]

​@@dontworry1302you can't be sober

[@fairycat23]

@@dontworry1302 It's an option as long as you drench your food in Old Bay, wear a Steven Universe shirt, and have a deck of Fluxx cards in your pocket. Oh, and of course you gotta end the day by playing Just One More Turn of Sid Meier's Civilization.

[@1967sluggy]

Babe wake up Premodernist just dropped a 1 and a half hour video and it’s about vexillology

[@pepeepupoo]

Ackshually it's 1.55 hours not 1.5

[@dannydewario1550]

​@@pepeepupooAckxkchhhhually it's 1 and 2029/3600ths hours

[@nicoferfio]

And it's a response to a 1.5 year old video

[@thejibberjabberwookiee8604]

And he has a moustache!!

[@Kelly_C]

was about to make basically this same comment lol

[@fairycat23]

The real reason Ted Kay said Maryland has a good flag despite it all is because he clearly knows people who insult our flag tend to end up at the bottom of the Chesapeake Bay.

[@TacoKnight96]

I have to say the snark of this video is so cathartic after YEARS of listening to “Vexillologists” snark about how “objectively” bad flag designs are based on metrics such as “I don’t like it.”

[@SeanMacadelic]

Reading your comment is cathartic ngl

[@kyle857]

There are several good metrics for flag design and a lot of state flags fail most of them.

[@ThatGuysAlright]

Someone can be snarky and annoying, and also be right. A flag can have history and importance, and also be an eye sore. These concepts aren't mutually exclusive. Flags don't have to follow any set of "rules", but we all know what a bad flag looks like.

[@magneryset2357]

@@ThatGuysAlright This. The argument that they were used as battle standards kinda fails when you consider that they could have had a battle standard of a turd emoji. That doesn't mean a turd emoji would be a good state flag. Or it kinda would, because it would be more unique and identifiable than most of the US state flags. But it would still be a bad flag. If they used better battle standards in the ACW I would be in full support of keeping them as current state flags. But let history be history when it performs objectively poorly as a flag. Now discuss which state would 'deserve' to have the turd emoji as a state flag.

[@yilibobchris]

@kyle857 The fact that everyone is arguing over what good flag design is is pretty good evidence that there is NOT a good metric for what makes a good flag.

[@freealter]

South Carolina flag was the absolute worst to pick on. Gorgeous flag.

[@chandlerblachut3878]

Right? I see it regularly as a bumper sticker and I guarantee most people don’t even know it has something to do with Carolina. People just like the way it looks

[@davidmontgomery1442]

It seems like the entire criticism comes from CGP Grey not being able to fathom that states other than California are associated with palm trees

[@Bazzzzzinga]

@@chandlerblachut3878 here you are describing the issue. You say no one recognizes this as Carolina. So how it is a good flag then for representing Carolina?

[@maisatanel]

@@Bazzzzzinga you wouldn't recognise the nordic flags as nordic if you never cared to learn it. but you did because it's ubiquitous knowledge. south carolina isnt as ubiquitous in culture

[@Bazzzzzinga]

@@maisatanel I would not recognize anything in the world if I had not learned what it is. This is a non sequitur. The question is how easily the design lends itself to being recognized and connected to what it is that it is representing. Not if I had to learn it or not. I take your point on the ubiquitousness of culture being the driver for recognizability here. I do not think that the SC flag is bad, actually. But it somehow does not seem to speak to a lot of people as being South Carolina, and that is not great for a flag that is supposed to represent SC either.

[@newtonpritchett9887]

“In Defense of the State Flags” Sometimes the best defense is a good offense

[@47ejecting2]

Funny: When you removed the rugs from the Turkmenistani flag, I would've confused it with Pakistan - especially some of the older designs that had a boatload of stars. So much for "distinctiveness" ...

[@philip2205]

Idaho and Montana are more similar than Pakistan and that modified Turkmenistan flags. If you agree with him on his other points, e.g. the seal on blue being discernible, you also ought to agree Kaye's modified Turkmenistan flag is not similar to Pakistan.

[@philip2205]

*"... and that modified Turkmenistan [flag]"

[@47ejecting2]

@@philip2205 Perhaps, but there are other considerations besides distinctiveness, which is what is being argued here. My point was that - assuming the person who wants to change a flag bears the burden of proof - removing the rugs from Turkmenistan's flag needlessly reduces its distinctiveness when compared with Pakistan's (where the only features are green, crescent, star/stars). Distinctiveness is among their listed virtues, so changing Turkmenistan's flag runs contrary to their position. As it stands now, I'd never mistake one for the other. It wasn't meant to be a final word, just another jab at the pamphlet's absurdities. But I don't have skin in this particular game and I am certainly no flag expert; my confusing the two flags would be akin to a child mangling the Stars and Stripes.

[@samcavallaro]

⁠@@philip2205except Idaho and Montana *are* quite distinguishable. The seals are fairly different if you look at the details and they both have their names on the flag (Montana’s quite prominently). I’m not trying to strongly defend these flags, they could be better, but if you’re talking about being able to distinguish them they are absolutely distinguishable. Now, you might say: “I meant from a distance!” And I would understand that objection, but if you limit your design language to a limited color palette, limited number of colors and nothing complicated or letters then you’re going to run out of distinctive and *meaningful* flags if you’re trying to cover every Country, State, County, Province, City, etc. And remember: once you get to the level of states and cities (and other things like counties), you’re talking about probably thousands and certainly hundreds of flags to keep straight. Even if we’re just worried about just the 197 (ish) countries of the world that’s a lot to keep track of and it’s only made harder by strict adherence to these principles. I do think there is some usefulness to considering these principles when designing a flag, but I think they are only useful as loose guidelines *and* once you get below the country there’s need to be even looser with those rules.

[@gingerapple1725]

Isn't the row of traditional designs a "stunning visual element," too? I'm a quilter and I absolutely love seeing fibercraft and traditional art on display as part of a flag! It's really unique!!

[@adog3129]

cgp grey is great at sounding like he knows what he's talking about.

[@josecarlosmoreno9731]

This describes 99.99% of edutainment. Always remember that 1. these are content creators not experts and 2. experts are often not actual experts (credentials often don't mean shit, especially in anything that's not a hard science) and 3. experts who actually are experts can still fail due to various emotional, tribal, financial, misinformed, misunderstood, etc reasons.

[@C0RRUPTCUP5]

"completely oblivious to historical context, and makes a snarky comment" literally his entire channel

[@seronymus]

The peak of Reddit Millennial Midwittery. Lord have mercy

[@ironmatic1]

Most popsci channels are like that

[@zachklieman2141]

@@ironmatic1 either that or they’re funded by Bill Gates 🤮

[@JJMcCullough]

Well put. I feel the tide is starting to turn.

[@crockstonyt]

Interesting seeing you here

[@Bradinator]

@@JJMcCullough its about time…

[@Shintenpu]

Did you get involved because CGPGrey gave a good grade to the Quebec flag?

[@JJMcCullough]

@@Shintenpu ouch

[@doctorbobcat7123]

For all their complaining about the old state flags, the alternatives reformists offer always end up being generic, geometric design which lack any sense of character or originality. Ted K's guidelines don't work well when put into practice. For example, the new Minnesota flag, which looks more like a corporate logo than a flag.

[@SuMmErWaVer7]

90 minutes of "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed". I love it 😂

[@Kelly_C]

except for lapel pins. he IS mad about lapel pins.

[@user-tw2xg1oh9f]

He sounds pretty mad about Indonesia

[@Ellyerre]

As a former Portuguese child, I can attest that no one can draw the flag from memory. The simplest version is a green and red flag with a yellow circle. The more advanced version is with the coat of arms inside the yellow circle, like halo. Full marks if you can draw the 7 castles and the 5 "quinas" in detail. But no one can draw the armillary sphere in detail, hence the yellow circle/halo.

[@xavierneves7810]

That's also a good point against the blue seal state flags. The portuguese flag has a lot of details but it is easily simplified to two colors and a circle and applied to other media like emoji, pins, accessories. You can't do that to the state flags because they're not distinctive enough - which could be improved by for instance having a unique background color.

[@DanielHarveyDyer]

Totally agree. Brunei and Portugal have a distinctive simple flag with some meaningful stuff put on top. Many state flags only have the top layer and are kinda missing a good AVA-approved design underneath, for small stuff.

[@DanielHarveyDyer]

Conversely, Indonesia and Monaco should slap some good seals or other imagery on their flags to break the tie, like how Haiti and Liechtenstein did.

[@DanielHarveyDyer]

Indonesia have a good shield with the five symbols of their constitution they could add, while the coat of arms of Monaco appears to be a game of chess that is about to get out of hand.

[@KabalFromMK9]

​@@DanielHarveyDyer Knowing how the Indonesian public are not really into vexillology, and that they regard their flag highly and seriously, I don't think they would tolerate a flag change. I'm from there so I could attest to that.

[@jeremyteutsch105]

He's back, he's talking over 90mins and its about flags. Just saved my evening. :D

[@StefanCreates]

And he has a moustache!

[@TehVulpez]

​@@StefanCreateshe had a mustache before, it just stands out more now since he shaved his beard

[@elideaver]

literally no other video about the state flags I've seen has mentioned regimental colors; in the first 3 minutes this fact moves a bland, lazy design, copy pasted by politicians, into a real symbol, with the same dignity as the national style state flags. 11/10 video, will recommend in person to anyone who even remotely mentions an associated topic. edit: cgp grey's family is from south Carolina, so the palmetto thing may be a personal vendetta

[@JoeShmoe102]

I don't think I've ever seen such a thorough take down of an entire niche movement in my whole life. I love it.

[@Introvert_Naseem]

Everything is temporary But Premodernist Dropping a video after every 2 month is permanent

[@joeyjoejoejrshabadu]

And you know he'll come back in November for the Genghis Khan day

[@Introvert_Naseem]

@@joeyjoejoejrshabadu smart 🤓

[@onlyhistory8140]

Like farmer

[@ryangatton4094]

Dude has no idea how excited I was to see a 1 and half hour from him just drop

[@JustStop19]

Same!

[@Xefused]

Native South Carolinian here, thank you SO MUCH for covering the South Carolina flag. I like CGP Grey but could not believe how dirty he did our flag. Everyone in South Carolina knows the history of the palmetto trees and their significance in the Revolutionary War. Growing up, we all learned about Fort Moultrie and how cannonballs bounced off the spongy palmetto trunks, bringing about a pivotal victory in the war. This story and the history of the palmetto tree are big points of state pride, and ones that we can continue to be proud of today. So much of SC's history is tainted with hateful un-Americanism, but our state flag stands for the most fundamental American value of all: liberty. Certainly better than D-tier! And I admit that I'm a little bit biased here, but the South Carolina flag just looks awesome. It's elegant without being ostentatious, and sophisticated without being abstract. The core imagery, independent of the historical significance, is about as South Carolina as it gets. With my own two eyes I have seen the crescent moon suspended above a Palmetto tree against a sea of blue. I smell the ocean breeze every time I see the flag. Some other thoughts: Angel Oak is a terrible suggestion for the state flag. Don't get me wrong: it's an incredible specimen and truly a sight to behold. I have visited many times and sat upon its branches, and I am (very) distantly related to the Angel family for which the tree is named. But it is unequivocally not something that represents the spirit of South Carolina. And that concept design was horrendous! I also grew up calling palmetto trees "palms" so that comment also made me groan. I think I'd heard the Jasper story at one point in my youth, but it has long since left my memory, so thank you for bringing that back. I'll remember the namesake of Jasper County the next time I drive through.

[@JustStop19]

Thanks for sharing that, very interesting!

[@horabfibslager8762]

South Carolina is a traitor state, nobody should give a fuck about their history

[@monkofdarktimes]

He's a Brit and lives in Norf Carolina

[@magneryset2357]

​@@monkofdarktimes Who is?

[@amogusenjoyer]

​@@magneryset2357I think cgp grey is

[@matthewleonmartin]

Thank you for this. I remember that CGPGrey video and found it very condescending. I didn't realize how historically ignorant it was until I saw this. Your channel is a delight for people who just want to sit and listen to someone teach. No bells and whistles. Just knowledge imparted. Thank you for it

[@PoIapopo]

The Canadian flag with the word MONTANA on it was the funniest thing I've ever seen

[@renerpho]

Instantly raised my blood pressure 🤣

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

It is North Montana

[@nerdporkspass1m1st78]

1:15:29 LOL

[@blast_brothers592]

"They do shading, because it's art." I think that captures something important about this debate. Some see flags as *art* while others see them as *design*. All of these guidelines - few colors, minimal fine detail, etc. - come from the language of graphic and product design. But if you see flags more as art that represents the state, then it suddenly doesn't make sense to treat design rules as paramount.

[@j-maffe]

I think for the most part flags lie in the field of graphic design though. They have secondary functions than just conveying emotion, no?

[@jinccha8234]

Yeah, it's the old "Art vs. Product" thing again.

[@restroomuser]

@@j-maffe but nations arent companies, you dont need simple, "drawable" design, the states aren't selling themselves

[@j-maffe]

@@restroomuser graphic design is about so much more than marketing or selling. The drawing tip is very stupid but it is a huge plus for a flag to be easily memorable.

[@eple1955]

This is also why many people call state flag redesigns corporate-looking. They're created as design, not art.

[@MemeSupreme69]

The virgin "All the state flags look the same" vs the chad "This flag killed slavers"

[@TacticusPrime]

It's true that the Union soldiers set out to defeat the traitorous Slave Power, but that didn't make them abolitionists. That certainly didn't make them in favor of civil rights. They hated the political and economic power accrued to the masters, and their conspiracy to destroy the Union. The North had sundown towns and redlining too.

[@kyle857]

Just because something has history, doesn't make it good. The Red Wings made major history at the Joe Louis Arena. It was still objectively a terrible and unsafe structure.

[@this_is_patrick]

​@@kyle857 So you legit think the redesigned flags of Utah and Minnesota are in any way better than the originals?

[@poankiyu7664]

​@@this_is_patrickUtah is about the same, I think. Minnesota is just boring now.

[@pappy2690]

​@kyle857 citing a structure as reason why a flag capturing history is irrelevant? What?

[@SamuelSalty]

How would a medieval peasant treat you if you went back in time and showed them Idaho's state flag? What if you had a glock?

[@solomonchild3398]

These are the real questions

[@ramshackle12]

Lmaoooo

[@mskleftwich]

💀

[@joerionis5902]

Then the question would be how long do you plan on staying and much ammo did you bring.

[@peteranderson1624]

They would burn you as a witch!

[@ayararesara6253]

38:11 UKRAINE'S FLAG DOESN'T REPRESENT SKY AND FIELDS! It's a popular myth! In reality colours were taken from the coat of arms of Ruthenian kingdom (golden lion on a blue shield).

[@BiggestCorvid]

Thanks for your hard work. The older I get the more I learn how shallow CGP Grey's work really is. It started when he was pro monarchy in the UK and it continues today.

[@bingus1651]

When I was in school they told us that Illinois' flag has the state's name on it because of a request from a soldier who was embarrassed that no one from other states recognized it. Don't know if it's true, but there is at least an apocryphal history behind its inclusion!

[@premodernist_history]

Yes, that's true! It was an NCO serving in Vietnam.

[@evanpereira3555]

Personally I would be even more ashamed that my flag needs to have the name on it to be recognized.

[@Snarkbar]

I wasn't aware of the history of many of these flags. It's easy to laugh at a bunch of similar "seal on blue" designs. It's all but impossible to hate a Union battle flag.

[@Taurian_]

As a Minnesotan who is emphatically proud of what the Minnesota 1st did at Gettysburg-arguably saving the Union-I’m conflicted about our old Seal and flag. After the Civil War, the Minnesota 1st then went on to fight the Dakota Native Americans, displacing or killing the Dakota. Our Seal and flag, which flew over Union soldiers in the Civil War, also expressly depicts the displacement of the Dakota. As a result, I am more than conflicted about a Union battle flag-my Union battle flag. I also happen to think our new flag looks great.

[@brucea3103]

No mention of southern state flags being variations of the Confederate and Virginia Battle Flag (separate flags).

[@Taurian_]

@@brucea3103 #truth Sometimes knowing the historical context of a flag makes me want to change it more

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@@Taurian_ come on, this type of logic can be used to get rid of essentially everything.

[@jamesvarga312]

@@Taurian_ So it doubles as a land acknowledgment too! Great!

[@clonging1956]

Your pure exasperation in parts of this video is genuinely hilarious

[@tofuwaifu96]

Finally. I'm glad someone is finally putting CGP in his place. He has been allowed to espouse his redditor beliefs for too long

[@flyingsheep567]

If you want to see more of CGP being put in his place, Shaun has a good video debunking his pro-monarchy video.

[@halo3soap114]

Do you mind linking it? Sound interesting.

[@Lakeland_IV]

^

[@waldothewalrus294]

JJ McCullough also made a defense of state flags a few times

[@humicroav215]

Thanks for correcting CPG Grey - especially on the SC flag. I recognize that SC has a lot of problematic history, but this flag is one of the most recognizable flags in the Union and a vast majority of South Carolinians are proud to fly this flag unlike others that received a poor grade in his video.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

The entire US and the World for that matter has all sorts of problematic history.

[@MichelSchallenberg]

This flag snobbery really seems like: "Hey, let's redesign flags based on all those principles we learned from marketing" A flag isn't a corporate logo...

[@JustStop19]

Exactly! And they dare to put them in tiers, like it's some videogame characters..

[@j-maffe]

@@MichelSchallenberg from graphic design* Which is about much more than marketing

[@mirzaahmed6589]

What marketing?

[@niall_sanderson]

An example of this done wrong is Ottawa’s flag. They went from an admittedly not great purple-red-blue tricolour, to that plus the city coat of arms in 1987, to a blue and teal flag with a swirly O in the middle that looks like the logo of some middling tech company. And man is that last flag ugly

[@greytooth898]

Graphic design might as well be considered a speciality within marketing .

[@FishsMusicChannel]

I've been roasted online for so long for disagreeing with CGP's takes on flags. I hate the corporate logo-ification of these flags. This video is so gratifying to me.

[@2394098234509]

Dude, same

[@TheDecimater1000]

It's so weird how we collectively as a society hated on corporate logo simplification but took those same principles and heralded them as the essence of good flag making. As if it's not all subjective anyways.

[@Unknown-jt1jo]

Ted Kaye's guidelines remind me of some of the more opinionated graphic designers I've worked with. Those designers insisted, bizarrely, that their design was *correct.* Not just useful, appropriate, or attractive--they insisted it was the *correct* design, and any deviation from it was wrong.

[@Professional_Human]

they gentrified state flags :(

[@angmid9210]

100%

[@FelipeJaquez]

Reject Reddit Mandated Rules, Embrace State Seal Tradition & History

[@amogusenjoyer]

It's truly amazing how every single "movement" or policy advocacy picked up by Reddit becomes an absolute cesspit. Some sensible, reasonable positions turn into a nightmare of regurgitated points that lose all their meaning after a few rounds of Redditors playing the telephone game by copy pasting arguments they read in a previous thread. It's like a Midas touch that turns everything into cancer. They also have this tendency to make even the most trivial of debates a moral crusade. If I wanted to completely discredit something I don't like, making it popular on Reddit is basically the best way to do it at this point.

[@amogusenjoyer]

It's truly amazing how every single "movement" or policy advocacy picked up by Reddit becomes an absolute cess pit. Some sensible, reasonable positions turn into a nightmare of regurgitated points that lose all their meaning after a few rounds of Redditors playing the telephone game by copy pasting arguments they read in a previous thread. It's like a Midas touch that turns everything into cancer. They also have this tendency to make even the most trivial of debates a moral crusade. If I wanted to completely discredit something I don't like, making it popular on Reddit is basically the best way to do it at this point.

[@NoNoNah306]

This is definitely the worst influence a guy called Ted K. has had on society.

[@baranxlr]

“Words on flags and their consequences have been a disaster for the human race”

[@jamescollins2421]

"Some people are going to hate me" - man who we would all follow to the ends of the Earth

[@cieproject2888]

...on camelback, no less!

[@naturaljoe8167]

I just want to point out that the flag of Monaco is based on the heraldic colors of the House of Grimaldi. This has been their symbol since 1339, so if you're going to be consistent, Monaco still "deserves" the colors. But who cares? Who is going to confuse Monaco and Indonesia in any meaningful way? They're not neighbors, and that alone eliminates most of the chance of confusion. I say don't change it for the sake of practicality.

[@magneryset2357]

It's not so much an argument for Indonesia changing their flag as it should have been an argument raised when choosing their flag in 1945. "Monaco already has this design, and Poland has a similar design flipped upside down, so let's make some simple changes so our flag stands out from the crowd." And that's why it's in the flag design guidelines, to avoid ending up with flags that are too similar. While Indonesia is unlikely to have border crossings of people who thought they were entering Monaco, the modern world has a slew of international gatherings, organizations, conferences and more where you have flags from all over the world flying side by side. Not to mention embassies and consulates that often have a big flag outside as a primary identifier.

[@jacobrose6661]

​@@magneryset2357I get that, but it doesn't really defeat the rebuttal of "why did Indonesia have to wait until 1945 to choose their flag?" It would be incredibly insensitive and insulting to have told Indonesia, sorry buddy I know we colonized you for hundreds of years and all but you can't have the flag design that means very much to you because this tiny microstate that you probably have never heard of already picked that design. Also the concept of our modern international world was just not really a thing in 1945 and Indonesia probably had no reason to expect that it would be. So the idea of not being able to choose a flag because someone else already picked it probably just didn't occur to them.

[@lucawasserer]

@@jacobrose6661 nah Indonesians should have just chosen another flag, dont come with colonialism, its a boring one aswell

[@prkp7248]

Well Haiti and Liechtenstein did really change their flags in order to make them appear different. It all started when athletes from those two countries meet in the Olympics and found out that their countries flags are the same.

[@ApophisTw0Thousand6309]

Yes but its fair to point out the Indonesian flag is based on the colors of the Majapahit Empire which was founded in 1293, so their use is still older. But you are still absolutely right that no-one sane is going to confuse the microstate Monaco with Indonesia. And even if they did, what would be the big deal? "Is that Monaco?" "No. That's Indonesia." "Oh." Totally worth changing the flag over.

[@HoosierMan1816]

This is a great video. With how widely accepted the "vexillology principles" are, I am glad that there is someone criticizing them. I agree with everything that you said.

[@achmed6704]

I lost it at "18 DIFFERENT COLORS. yeah I guess, I didn't count the colors on this, they do shading you know.. Because it's ART"

[@horabfibslager8762]

A flag is a tool, not art.

[@dhooth]

@@horabfibslager8762 weird dichotomy

[@WrnMyr]

@@horabfibslager8762 buddy do i have news about the history of art for you

[@kyle857]

Shading becomes an unreadable blur at even mid distance. Our smudge on a blue field flags are sure amazing...

[@robbie2138]

@@horabfibslager8762 alright god

[@kevincronk7981]

I stopped watching CGP Grey after the flag videos, they just felt really off to me to the point that I stopped liking the channel as a whole. I'm glad to finally hear literally anyone who agrees

[@wokenpancake]

This is the first flag video i’ve seen that actually explains the origins and reasons for the “state seal” flags. I think it shows how valuable it is to know why things are there before you go tearing them down.

[@Irisfruit]

@@wokenpancake a flag being historical is worthless if no one actually flies it. A flag that no one flies is a failure, no exceptions.

[@troppoandante]

My hunch is that some people dislike the state flags not because they fail to follow some putative rules of simplicity but simply because they look rather crude in execution. There were no graphic designers and few trained artists of any description in the nascent states and the designs of the flags unsurprisingly do not look very polished to modern eyes. Some were probably hashed out by a local tailor or seamstress charged with implementing in cloth a concept expressed verbally by the local grandees.

[@Arthemax]

Which is part of why they're such a tragedy. There was already a well established flag tradition available for them to draw on when designing their flags. One that produces easily distinguishable, identifiable and reproducible flags with meaning behind them.

[@maurice251]

Premodernist is back... and this time he's got a mustache !

[@taylorw2384]

And he's out for blood!

[@JKTCGMV13]

The navajo rainbow is cool because it's not just a normal rainbow, but it seems to have a color choice that's clearly not european

[@mediaaccount8390]

Dear Premodernist, the intellectual honesty and clear thinking you shared in this video is a jewel. Your kind but honest presentation of ideas is welcomed in an age of self-contradiction and fleeting half-thoughts. Thank you for improving the history of human discourse with you contribution. (The seeming hyperbole is not intended... I am sincere, and wish online comments could capture the sincerity)

[@Bradinator]

No way, I took those images of the Minnesota flag at 31:03 I was so shocked when I saw it. Thank you for using it! Great video.

[@premodernist_history]

Thank you for taking the pictures, and for uploading them to Wikimedia Commons!

[@nicholasorr4230]

As an Illinoisian, I think a lot of the impetus to change our flag here comes from Chicago having such an iconic and omnipresent flag. People want something like that but for the whole state. The seal is brilliant, but it just doesn’t hit the same way as the Chicago city flag or the Cook County flag.

[@nicholasorr4230]

I really think the modern trend comes down to having something distinctive. Look at how Marylanders or Coloradoans plaster their flag on everything. You’re not gonna get that in Nebraska.

[@4quall]

What drives me crazy are the people from all over the Greater Chicagoland area using our flags as if! They probably don't even save winter parking spots with old lawn chairs or anything. Side note. I have the city flag tattooed my back. Ha

[@premodernist_history]

If what they're after is something like what Chicago has but for the whole state, then they should go with the Illinois Centennial flag. Same designer.

[@denelson83]

But you don't want the flag of Chicago being used as the flag of Illinois, amirite?

[@amogusenjoyer]

Idk, the Chicago flag looks like a generic flag of some fake vaguely third world enemy state in a call of duty style game lol.

[@modeswitching]

“Do not remove a fence until you know why it was put up in the first place.”

[@idainasukottorandohito3813]

So much of this. Wise words for people trying to effect so much social change today. Not that some of the things shouldn't be changed, but certainly not wholesale without first considering the why and wherefore

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

I think alot of where people fall on this stuff is based on personal temperament. Some people see change as a goof in of itself, some people believe in preserving things unless well convinced otherwise.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@@idainasukottorandohito3813and with no consideration of backlash or how in the medium to long term they might actually undermine themselves or cause.

[@kurkenfruit]

This is similar to something I heard from college friends in arts programs. There is a push away from artistry and towards graphic design. Obviously part of that is employability, but it uses similar rhetoric that everything you do has to have “your brand”, and your brand has to be simple and easily reproducible. I think it will be seen as the mark of our time that everything had to give way to mass production and reproducibility.

[@j-maffe]

@@kurkenfruit I think it's more about memorability. It's hard to relate to a flag that I don't remember half the details on. The pamphlet gives very bad reasons for simplicity but there many good ones.

[@TheLegoPerson]

​@@j-maffethe idea that it's impossible to relate to something that's too intricate and detailed is insane and runs counter to the very concept of art. imagine going to the Louvre and looking at the wall-sized masterpieces of artistic expression that are absolutely full of emotion and passion and deciding it's not as "relatable" as a fucking colored plus sign

[@mongoose376]

The CGP Grey/Ted Kaye type flag reformers seem to want the flag to be essentially the "corporate logo" of a state/country - somethat that is basic and can be easily reproduced by a computer in varying resolutions and levels of detail. Ted Kaye even says that it should look recognizable in greyscale! When would a flag ever need to be in greyscale?

[@RobespierreThePoof]

Largely true. However, the cultural shift is a little broader than just the movement towards design (and away from "artistry" ... By which I think you mean craft.) The modernist movement(s) is not really centered on design per se. It's driven by rationalism in many cultural domains and arts, abstraction in the arts, transcultural legibility in design, and branding in graphic and industrial design. The beginnings of these shifts can be located in the industrial revolution and several waves of cultural responses to it. The cultural history is fairly rich and has been thoroughly mapped out by art historians and other cultural historians. It's not really design per se. It's modernism, broadly... Including modernist design principles.

[@danielj.8876]

​@@mongoose376When I was in military some of us used patches of our flag in greenscale instead of the original colors, because the gold and the red can be spotted in nature and give away positions (for real). And there's merit to wanting to have your patch be identifiable on a battlefield, in case you get wounded or unexpectedly end up in the line of sight of friendly troops for whatever reason.

[@Garbaz]

I do have to disagree somewhat with your point that the state flags are as easy to distinguish as say the Nordic flags. Sure, if you get a full closeup view of the design for five seconds, you can recognize two deer holding a shield no problem. But if you see a flag flapping in the wind, the design not fully visible, or just get a brief glance at it, or look at it from a distance, or don't pay full attention, or don't have your glasses on, or whatever, recognizing differences between colors and simple shapes is far easier than recognizing full objects like animals. That's just how our cognition is. And insofar as a certain flag matters at all, I do think that being able to still easily recognize it under non-ideal conditions matters a lot. That's also why I would argue that the US flag works. Sure you might not be able to count the stars in a hurry, but that doesn't matter, you see red and white stripes, a blue rectangle with some white dots in the corner, it's the US, done. And as you said, same goes for the Turkmenistan or Navaho flag. All that said, I also agree with your argument that for the state flags in particular, history matters. And I would say it matters a lot more than the flag being a good symbol when compared to national flags. Nobody is going around torpedoing ships in the distance based on whether they carry the Nebraska or Utah flag.

[@yungoldman2823]

the vexillogical community is in tears and shambles after this

[@thesleepykidkoszmar6039]

I can never predict what I'll get next with your videos, which is almost something of a blessing because you make topics I hadn't really considered before very interesting

[@levirhoden]

“Get on his hobby horse” I love it!! Amazing video, I’ve felt the same way about the “web design-afication” of how we look at flags, but you put it much better than I could’ve.

[@mathteacher1729]

You changed my perspective on the motivations of the flag redesign movement's theme of simplicity for simplicity's sake, and I sincerely thank you for that. I had watched the CGP Gray video you referenced when it first came out, and had heard of the pamphlet you referenced re: flag design. Your video essay opened my eyes to the history behind many state flags that I previously wrote off as being boring and/or banal or thoughtless, or just plain ugly (i.e. the New Jersey state flag's background color). No idea that was because of George Washington's uniform color and NJ being a favorite of GW. This video is filled with gems like that and I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to put it all together. I have gladly subscribed and look forward to seeing future videos and catching up on your older videos.

[@olcooksy6132]

I also felt there was a historical power in the blue field flags. Thank you for putting it so eloquently. I had suspicions that the state flag style was were based in civil war banners, but I could never find confirmation in sources, just anecdotal evidence. The resource you provided is very compelling in that regard

[@GoErikTheRed]

I do have one criticism of the “seal on blue” flags that I don’t feel you properly addressed. When they hang limp, the design in the center does become much more difficult to distinguish. Wyoming put a cool border around their flag I will also say that when I looked up all the state flags, the first result was a pretty low res image off EBay (it’s bad. No text on any of the flags is legible), and in those conditions it becomes clear when “complexity” doesn’t detract from the overall design. South Carolina still has a cool tree. Iowa and Louisiana still have distinctive birds. The Connecticut shield stands out with all that white. But New Hampshire, Nebraska, and Utah are circles with different smudges inside. The only difference between Vermont and Wisconsin is the lettering, and when you can’t read it that’s not great. Granted, that’s not at all how the flags are meant to be viewed, but I still thought it was interesting

[@Dan-dj7kl]

I want more 90 minute rants from people who actually know what they are talking about

[@amarminhas202]

As a Canadian, I definitely resent some of the provincial flags. That doesnt mean I want a corporate logo as a flag though lol.

[@amogusenjoyer]

Quebec wins this round 😎. Yeah even France dropped the Fleur de Lys but still, at least it's iconic

[@TheBasil36]

In Alberta truck window stickers show Newfoundland or Nova Scotia flags, but Alberta gets it's provincial border as a sticker instead...

[@amarminhas202]

@@TheBasil36 Yeah, in Saskatchewan you see the yellow and green or the prairie lily but I don't see the flag as much.

[@chrisbolland5634]

Can't wait to watch this video. I'm a firm supporter of your channel, having graduated from undergrad as a history major, and I wrote my thesis on the confederacy's relationship to slavery. Keep on truckin!

[@queendumb]

What people get wrong about the "A child should be able to draw the flag from memory" is not that a child should be able to draw it perfectly. Rather a child should be able to draw a represenation of the flag where it could be recogised as said flag! Your use of the USA flag is a perfect example.

[@magneryset2357]

The US flag is in a way an exception to the rule. It's more 'detailed' than most national flags, but because it's a repeating pattern it still works quite well. You can describe it well with just a few sentences.

[@zeytelaloi]

Indeed. Someone artistically challenged (e.g., me) could try to draw Maryland's flag but you'd still be able to tell it was their flag.

[@triletto]

I think the only real way to judge a flag is if the people that live there like it and use it. Maryland's flag doesn't follow design principles, but people in Maryland love their flag and you see it everywhere, it's a good flag. I'm from South Carolina, you see the Palmetto flag everywhere here and we love it, it's a good flag (also that Angel Oak flag he designed is hideous). The seal on background flags are never used at all unless there's a legal reason to use them. Regardless of their history, they are bad flags. I'd argue states with seal flags in practice don't actually have flags.

[@Crankthatsnes]

I largely agree. The flag of Milwaukee mentioned at 1:19:00 is rarely flown by random people as opposed to the much more popular and (currently) unofficial people's flag

[@rodlavery509]

When Premodernist mentioned near the end "there might be other principles of flag design I'm unaware of" I wondered what those might be. I think this one is excellent, especially for a democracy - what design is liked by the people it represents? Great thought, thanks for sharing.

[@FateBringsMe2U]

You never see anyone in washington state use the flag for anything

[@mossadgynist]

​@@FateBringsMe2Umy dad had one on his wall when I was a kid, doesn't anymore now that he's married

[@CalebPoling-tb6jw]

I didn't know or care about Ted Kaye going into this video but by the time you got to the Navajo flag I was whispering "get his ass!" to you under my breath

[@danielbabb4776]

just heard that awesome conclusion, and WOW I sincerely hope that just like that Gray video became a touchstone for the discussion of "good flag design," I hope this video touches off a little more respect for our flags. Thanks again for another awesome video!!

[@jamesvarga312]

While listening to this I mocked up the Wisconsin state flag in MS paint and my friend sitting next to me looked over when I was half way done and said "Oh... wisconsin! I'd only drawn a miner, a sailor, and the shield in the middle. Children can draw these and they can be distinguished.

[@williamtrowbridge4868]

There is a conflict between aesthetics and historical significance that underpins this whole debate. Depending on which aspect of flag design you value more, Premodernist's arguments could be either supremely significant or almost irrelevant. I'm a history guy, so I am personally swayed by any flag which has an interesting historical story to tell, but I cannot deny that most state flags are mad ugly or completely unmemorable.

[@Taurian_]

Boost

[@BiggestCorvid]

Yeah, I actually don't recall this specific video of cgp Grey and just his more general flag vid The palmetto is a statement that they will defend themselves, it's a threat that if you come there they will use their trees to build walls and shoot at you from behind them.

[@THEBOLSHEVIK]

Grey's flag takes annoyed me enough that I actually unsubscribed from him a couple years ago. Conversely, this video made me subscribe to you. Thank you for the thorough and thoughtful breakdown!

[@loftilywrongly3483]

Not done watching the video, but I never knew about the seal-on-blue flags having origins from the ACW. I think it's unlikely, but I hope CGP Grey makes a future flag video where he addresses some of the criticisms he's faced between this video and some other ones. Most of the people I've talked to in my life who know what vexillology is learned about it from CGP Grey (the rest from that TED talk,) so I hope he uses his platform for good.

[@TheDecimater1000]

Unlikely. CGP Grey is a self-righteous snob.

[@TheDrunkenHetzer]

Honestly, knowing Grey, he will not care at all. He's very much future minded about everything and won't care about "old and outdated" civil war flag designs.

[@antiusername10]

​@@TheDecimater1000 I can see where the sentiment comes from, but I do (imo) think he's capable and self-aware enough to step down, and discuss Premodernist's points perhaps not on a featured video, on his podcast maybe, but still probable

[@edwinhuang9244]

@@antiusername10 Then again, he also copyright striked Vlogging Through History's video on reacting to his Flag Tier List as a first resort. And then copyright striked another video after Vlogging Through History appealed the first copystrike. That whole event was a whole drama in it of itself. (FYI if your channel gets 3 copyright strikes it's gone).

[@cpzd83]

just because the flags origin is the ACW doesn't just make it a good flag. that's nice that's the history but they are still terrible flags that don't represent the states. all they represent at that point is the civil war

[@Leftistattheparty]

I am here for the full "Oregon Flag Experience"

[@Alex-yy5wo]

I’m Oregonian and I’ll defend my flag forever

[@anthonys3892]

As an Illinoisan I hate all the new flag ideas I’ve seen proposed. Especially when it’s Chicago-centric. State flag needs to be representative of the rest of the state, Chicago has its own flag.

[@zeytelaloi]

postmodernist commented elsewhere that you could take a look at the Illinois Centennial flag. What do you think?

[@RobespierreThePoof]

Mm. Yes, but Chicago is one of the most important cities in the nation and, frankly, the world as well. I think you kinda have to accept that it's a fairly important part of your state. I the state flag shouldn't feel like a city flag. No question about that. But, a little realism about what your state's real significance actually has been would be important. Aside from Chicago and Lincoln's birthplace, Illinois is really known for farming ... Which is hardly very distinctive in the Midwest

[@anthonys3892]

@@RobespierreThePoof I say this as someone who’s grown up in Chicago and still lives in the area, I love our flag and of course the state flag should have some representation of Chicago. But I think a lot of us in the city do not understand the importance of the rest of the state when it comes to agricultural history and civil war era politics. I would rather the state flag focus on those parts, or alternatively the very very rich indigenous history of the area. Chicago is very forward-moving but these things shouldn’t become irrelevant.

[@Unknown-jt1jo]

@@anthonys3892 How about the Sears Tower overlaid atop a cornfield? That would include both the Chicago and non-Chicago elements.

[@EngineerLume]

I do think it's funny how almost every "Why is this thing on the flag?" can be answered with either "The Civil War" or "The Revolutionary War"

[@Stoneworks]

I don't agree with several things you said here, but this was a fun video to watch and you make solid points for your perspective. I'm now trying to think of what rules for flag design and historicity I would create

[@imnotjesper]

Great video! I think a lot of flag discussion comes from people making aesthetic judgements without knowing very much about art. So they're starting with "Italy and Norway's flags look good, Navajo and Michigan's flags look bad", and then they try to codify that into specific rules (because they don't have the vocabulary to actually discuss art). I don't think good flag design is that different from, for example, good character design. Both have to be meaningful and distinctive. But if you wrote a pamphlet stating that a good character design had to use two or three major colors and be so easy a child can draw it, you'd be laughed out of the room.

[@lunarsystem101]

I just realized that this is basically a Visual Designer vs. Historian debate. As a Literature man myself, this is very entertaining

[@eqwerewrqwerqre]

I just want to tell you, i had watched CGP and been completely convinced without concern or question. I'm so glad you made this video because in the first 5 minutes i realized that i hadn't actually ever thought about the history of these flags and how that might be a valuable thing to preserve, especially these days where we have individuals calling for civil war again. I'm so glad i can see these videos you make, this is a huge gap in my modern understanding of the world and you are teaching me so much valuable information about history and the process of history, culture, and just life. Thank you for making these videos. I hope this venture is as profitable for your wallet and soul as it is for my mind.

[@parkerbond9400]

As a Utahn, the new flag design chosen was one of my least favorite of the options, but I like it infinitely more than the old boring one. I'm so glad we changed our flag design.

[@thatisaduck]

people when states oversimply their flags and deliberately remove symbolism: wooo this is so much better, EVERY state should do this! people when corporations do the same thing to their logos: *anger*

[@tallend62]

51:43 For the Indiana flag, I learned at some point in Indiana public schools, that the name on the flag isn’t necessarily to identify the flag, it’s to identify the largest star that it’s written above. The flag is 13 stars around the outside for the original colonies, 5 stars along the bottom for the 5 states that joined before Indiana, and then the largest star just above the torch represents the State. Perhaps the legislators wanted to make that symbolism clear.

[@premodernist_history]

Yes, I read the same thing when I was researching the video. The "Indiana" is labelling specifically the star.

[@connorforberg5212]

Hey! Absolutely love your video, but as a Luxembourgish citizen, I have to correct you on 1:28:15. That flag at the end of Ted Kaye’s pamphlet I belive to be the provincial flag of Luxembourg in Belgium, but the flag you show on the video is the civil ensign of the Grand Duchy if Luxembourg, known as the Le Roude Léiw (which happens to be the only flag I own so I’m very familiar with the differences!), and although the province of Luxembourg in Belgium has a very similar flag to our national civil ensign, you put our civil ensign up on the screen when you were talking about the provincial flag. I’m glad you love it, though! Ted Kaye can’t hang 😂

[@premodernist_history]

Thanks! When I was editing I tried to find an image that matched the flag in the pamphlet and the civil ensign of the Grand Duchy looked closer (comparing the provincial flag and the civil ensign on Wikipedia). I'm actually not sure what the difference is. Is it a different shade of blue for the stripes? I just discovered the original image Ted Kaye used in the pamphlet, and it looks like he did mean to represent the civil ensign: www.fotw.info/flags/lu.html

[@a_blind_sniper]

The history of the Indonesian flag is actually REALLY interesting to study, and its origin could have potentially affected many modern flags, including the US flag. The Indonesian flag has origins in the 14th century Majapahit Empire royal colors and flag, which was a red and white stripe flag. When the British East India company came into power in that region, they adopted that striped flag with a canton of the flag of England in the upper left corner in 1600. When England became the UK, they put the UK flag as the canton instead. Theres no exact record for this next part, but the story goes that the US founding fathers saw the freedom and impunity that the crown granted the East India company, and to evoke that freedom of trade, they adopted the Continental Union flag, which then naturally evolved into the American flag we know today with its red and white stripes. This also explains why the flag of Malaysia 🇲🇾 looks similar to the US flag, sort of a convergent evolution of the flag designs. It's also why the Singapore flag is red and white like that. It's foolish to claim that Monaco and Poland have the only claim over red and white flags!

[@spagootest2185]

pokeball

[@sevenvulpa]

The idea of red and white are also two old color ideas for Austronesian people. Offerings to the spirits are often served with red and white porridge.

[@chrisconway9959]

It is postmodernism, plain and simple, and we must protect our history from these destructive influences.

[@chaz2damax]

when you are speaking about nobody checking the US Flag for perfection every time reminded me that in Walt Disney World, Main Street USA has many wrong flags because there are certain flags that never come down, which would disrespect US flag Code. Yet even though those inaccurate flags fly we still recognize them to be representative of the USA

[@konradsartorius7913]

I really liked this video and I believe it raises good points. To answer your question at 52:10 about the Arkansas state flag, when it got adopted in 1913, Oklahoma (its western neighbor) had a red flag with a blue-outlined white star. Oklahoma and Arkansas *Were* remarkably similar at the time, possibly prompting the legislature to write "Arkansas" on the flag.

[@ixchi.i]

genuine question! (for premodernist or anyone else wanting to chip in!) i really appreciate you making this video! i am not a huge flag redesign proponent but i did take a lot of the discource around it at face value. watching this video i agree with most of the points made, but i think that on the simplicity note - i dont know quite how to convey this, but i do think there is something abiout being able to make a flag a symbol that can be transfered for other uses. for example, i had for a long time a crochet water bottle holder in the colors of the pride flag. by the metrics laid out by the booklet - too many colors, but i would argue it is ONE OF the MOST iconic flags around that can be translated into a million different symbols for the community. Of course mine was not an accurate perfectly formated version of the flag- i used the colors i had, approximated the pattern, this was all made on a whim! not to bring it all back to crochet (and i dont think that this should automatically be a metric used obviously) but i could make crochet patches or water bottle holders, or i could get socks or something that have a recognizable icon of the flag as part of the design with many flags , to use examples from this video - the US flag (even with an imperfect amount of stars), the nordic flags (really simple and colors tell them apart), turkmenistan (even if the rug pattern is removed or highly simplified) I fail to see that as an easy answer for some of the state flags. if i want to make something that is a symbol of my pride for massachusets, i will not go to the flag. I might use elements from the flag, but i am much more likely to go to other things, like landmarks, other famous state symbols, but i cannot imagine myself like oh yeah let me do the more difficult work of modifying this flag to make a crochet coater or coin pouch or something. whereas, with like the US flag, pride flag, or even other states like minnesota or new mexico, (or even maryland), it is much more acheivable and symbolic! i dont know if this makes sense, but how do we consolidate the points made in this video if we also want flags to serve as a base symbol that can be simplifies with different mediums and designs to represent the place/thing? or should we not even look to flags for this? edit: TLDR. even with modern manufacturing taking away the cost of mass manufacture, having simpler and more iconic flags still allows for more creation and use of the flag itself as a symbol in other contexts than just flying above the capitol or on a porch. thoughts?

[@sppv3120]

"have you ever seen a child?" that killed me lmao

[@hujiko44745278184]

Thank you for voicing this, its been a long time coming and very needed! Boo to the flag reformists!!

[@TheAlex1121]

Masterclass in rebuttal. I have completely flipped my opinion on the redesigns because of this.

[@TheGreatDrAsian]

I love learning from real people who are calm, collected, friendly and professional instead of learning from PNG characters who act zany and crazy and mock everything. Thank you for your work sir.

[@TheDecimater1000]

Same, it's very refreshing to watch something that feels like the times in college the professor went off script and just talked about stuff that interested him.

[@realkekz]

Tbh CGP Grey is a good person, and informative, but he does definitely skew cringy redditor, which turns many people off. I've been watching him for years so I know his weird takes, and I just shrug them off, but the flags one has always been his worst by far. I actually would recommend his videos to almost anyone interested in learning, just take his videos with a grain of salt, he's much more stem than humanities, which naturally puts him at odds with the average Premodernist viewer, I, being both stem and humanities, hate myself.

[@realkekz]

@@capybara-c4g Stop being such a morose person.

[@Arthemax]

@@capybara-c4g What liberal use of AI art?

[@kestrel5922]

The Indonesian flag is actually major example of the version of simplicity being good for flag design that I'd heard/knew- that it can be improvised in a revolutionary/resistance situation. Since during Indonesia's independence struggle there were pro-independence demonstrations where they made the flag by tearing apart the Dutch flag.

[@ryandick9649]

There was a monumental statue in a major traffic circle of one of the cities on Java (Malang? Surabaya? I can't remember where) that depicts that act of tearing the Dutch flag apart to make the Indonesian flag. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_Hotel_incident

[@John_Theobald]

My main problem with the vexillology "community" is that they treat the rules from "Good Flag, Bad Flag" as some gospel that must be followed 100%. Like California breaks the rules, but is one of the best and most iconic state flags. The rules should just be kept as a suggestion, and simply make a flag that looks "cool" and one that people can connect and identify with. I personally agree with the changing of state flags (mostly the "seal" on blue ones), but I am not American so hey, who cares what I think. But as someone who lived in Nebraska I will fight for changing the Nebraska flag😆

[@nietoattacks4150]

Virgin minimalist design v.s Chad aristocratic family crest with 50 graphical elements each drenched in symbolism

[@Nick-tn3ms]

This video is the "not like us" for history/vexology youtube.