In Search of a Joyful Protestantism

[@Lili.B82]

Omg what you say in the beginning about being protestant but not amazed by the protestant movement make so much sense to me 🙏🏻

[@OrthodoxInquirer]

3:38 This is not why I personally want to be Orthodox. I do think having a space that feels holy is a good thing (like the Temple in the Old Testament), but the end of John 6 is my impetus to find apostolic Christianity. I also know that in my town, the only Protestant churches with a traditional altar and architecture are liberal with women ministers, and highly questionable theology on moral matters.

[@catholicguy1073]

Yeah Orthodoxy is infinitely better than the other options you have there

[@Kwesi6486]

The Assumption is such a beautifully hope-filled belief in Jesus’ power to save! Just me sharing my Catholic faith on the heels of a wonderful celebration of the Solemnity. I appreciate your openness, honesty, and committed faith.

[@justthink8952]

Examples of Assumption - Enoch, Elijah, Moses (read in Jude that Archangel Michael fought with the devil over Moses' body).

[@ricklarson392]

Even for those who do not believe in the Assumption literally can take great comfort in the Truth the Assumption points us toward

[@ThruTheUnknown]

Oh accretions like Imputed Righteousness, Grape Juice, Symbolic view of the Eucharist and Baptism etc?

[@WanderingThief]

But muh “remembrance” and muh “baptism of the Holy Spirit?” What do you have to say to that, you big meanie?

[@yeshuadvargas5552]

Also, accretions like: Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, once saved, always saved, the sinners prayer, prosperity gospel, mandatory tithing, iconoclasm, double predestination, the rapture, women pastors, denial of infant baptism, allowing contraception and divorce, religious relativism, zionism, non-liturgical, human-centered worship, total depravity, and penal substitution. You know.... accretions. (Just to name a few off the top of my head).

[@matthewashman1406]

@@yeshuadvargas5552 you dont go to hell for not tithing

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

@@matthewashman1406"you don't go to hell for not tithing." That depends on what denomination you choose.

[@yeshuadvargas5552]

@@matthewashman1406 Tell that to the "churches" who ask for your bank account number, before they even ask for your name.

[@Aspiring3033]

It seems to me as a former Protestant now Catholic. As a Protestant I had to rely on feeling connected to God & if I was having a hard time & struggling to pray or connect with Jesus it was up to me & often when life got difficult I would start to drift away. As a Catholic now even though I’m going through some very difficult times & I often cannot think going to mass & having the sacraments as physical & incarnation al faith it still keeps me close to Jesus & moving closer to him even when I cannot pray & I cannot think at all! It is a relief. There is no need to perform or fit in. I can just be with Jesus in the mass & offer my suffering to him as a prayer. If I had not become Catholic I would not now be going to church at all & I would of drifted from Jesus not because I did love him or want a relationship but because no Protestant church ever held me in the faith. No to mention the ability to always seek support from a priest which never really seemed as accessible with a church minister.

[@lizmcateer968]

Well said

[@rexlion4510]

Your description of your experience in the Catholic Church sounds to me like my experience in joining my ACNA Anglican parish. Ironically, I am a former cradle Catholic and I feel far more free to seek support from my Anglican priest than I ever did from any Catholic priest. God works in mysterious ways!

[@vivekapihl5179]

@@rexlion4510 God surely does! I converted to christianity attending catholic masses. Especially I felt drawn to Bible. I am now a baptist. I really was born again during my conversion and I have hard time to understand when people say that just go with the sacramental church flow. When I go to service I am rejoicing the coming together of the people of God. The sacraments happen among the christians as the Body of Christ. Sacraments are not some sort of vending machine for connection, the clerics fill it up and then it is available for the rest. Sacraments are taking place in the community of believers, Christ being it's center. We do carry each others burdens, some are stronger in their christian faith, some more fragile, but I do not think a born again believer does not know that he is a believer or that he is connected to God and can just go to do a ritual in order to stay christian believer. Those who partake the eucharist know God and believe in Jesus and in His salvific life, death and resurrection. Otherwise it is not a eucharist. Like the Apostle teaches: "Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves".

[@gabrielgabriel5177]

Coptic orthodox also emphasis the spritual feeling in prayer. If you do not have feelings toward God or from God then you did not pray yet.

[@dimensionninja4929]

was there no discipleship?

[@venomsnack]

I don't think Christianity is about finding joy through a denomination but living in the truth right

[@llla_german_ewoklll6413]

The question then is what denomination is true? That’s the whole point of the vid.

[@venomsnack]

@@llla_german_ewoklll6413 The one that believes Christ is Lord and he covers the faithful in his blood. I'm bored of the denomination autism online which Paul warned against often.

[@llla_german_ewoklll6413]

@@venomsnack He warned against schism and heresy which protestantism is based on. I’m bored of the people who act as if we should just push aside the truth while calling for resting in the truth. Christians are not to be relativists.

[@venomsnack]

@@llla_german_ewoklll6413 I just said the truth, but its human to want to keep adding to it.

[@llla_german_ewoklll6413]

@@venomsnack Right, but what denomination teaches the truth? We need to be in accordance with what Christ set up as the pillar and ground of truth. Every time i run into a guy that says its all about Jesus and not religion, they seem to forget that he gave all power in heaven and on earth to them which is his own authority, and that the church he provided was the pillar and ground of truth. You can’t appeal to forgetting what our lord taught us. I have Jesus, and you have Jesus, but we clearly don’t both believe in the same dogmas, so we need to find his church

[@emiliomendoza653]

It's already been placed together by 2000 years of history and tradition ❤

[@MrPeach1]

good luck Austin. teaching your evangelical church about the apostalic fathers. You gotta let us know how many become Catholic or Orthodox

[@truthnotlies]

Lol😅

[@GospelSimplicity]

I’m genuinely curious about this. I’m going through the Apostolic Fathers now with my wife, and if she’s any indication, it should be an interesting journey.

[@MrPeach1]

@@GospelSimplicity I have seen a lot of your deep dives seemly convince people about Catholic or Orthodoxy. I am interested to see if it has the same impact in a more personalized study..I have long thought you to be one of the best Catholic Evangelization Channels. Especially when you changed your position on John 6.

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

@@GospelSimplicity Would love to hear more about your wife’s journey! Also want to say I appreciate and thank the Lord for your sincerity, which can be easily seen in your questions. May our good & gracious God continue to light your way in following Christ, who is the Truth, no matter where Truth leads. Jesus said, blessed are those who are hated for My namesake. Understanding the church as Christ established and intended it often reminds me of that verse. Growing in grace can require us to make great sacrifices, like our Lord. May we die to ourselves and be made new in Him with every step we take!

[@gabrielgabriel5177]

I am EO. I currently read apostolic fathers. I read the Letter of st Clemens and all 7 letters of ignatius. I did not find anything speficly "orthodox/catholic" in those letters. One can be protestant totally agree with those letters. Episkopos and presbyteer can be understood in orthodox way or protestant way. I mean these apostolic fathers did not explain those term specificly.

[@billyhw5492]

Are the Accretions in the room with us right now, Gavin?

[@annalynn9325]

😂

[@justinking3558]

😂

[@ninjason57]

😂

[@Veritas463]

SAINT IRENAEUS “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

Also Irenaeus: "We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith." (Against Heresies, 3.1.1)

[@TheOrthodoxPunjabi]

"help me want to be protestant" 💀💀💀 bro is holding on for dear life

[@Flame1500]

It’s recognising the fact that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have dogmatic issues which are clearly false. But enjoying the aesthetics and feelings the evoke. While remaining Protestant because dogmatically it is true. That’s what he’s saying.

[@christophlindinger2267]

​@@Flame1500just out of curiosity, what's "clearly false" and how do you know?

[@Flame1500]

@@christophlindinger2267 Salvation by works is the primary thing since it goes contrary to the entire gospel message that works have nothing to do with our salvation (are they important? yes. Do they secure eternal rewards in heaven? yes. theyre just not required for salvation), and the very obvious diatribe in romans is countering every single roman catholic and eastern orthodox objection, if your preaching does not get the same objections Paul got (namely, “so we can sin as much as we like then?” which is something he got often) then I doubt you’re preaching the same message as Paul. A message of GRACE justification by infusion rather than imputation seems again clearly to be wrong based on romans 4:5 Along with that we have veneration/intercession of saints crossing to idolatry (not always, but in practice it does) And finally: ecumenical council infallibility (evidenced by the fact no church follows all canons). The fact that if you disagree with even 1 of the 200+ anathema pronounced at the 7 church councils, even if you have *doubts* about venerating icons, you are cut off from Christ. It’s unbiblical and not true to say that. It’s obvious that particularly nicea II was extreme in it’s anathema because the iconoclasts and iconodules were in a power struggle and needed to end the controversy and return unity so by smiting anyone who even thinks of dissent with anathema you quash the issue and prevent further disagreement. It was a political move not a God ordained theological move I know because I read the Bible “how can you know your interpretation is correct” because Jesus Himself rebuked people for now following the plain teaching of scripture, 10 times he says “have you not read” implying that regardless of what the religious leaders taught, the plain reading of scripture supersedes it. I’m not going to rattle off the multitude of Bible verses which prove this because i know i’ll get the classic orthodox/catholic pop-apology “you’re taking it our of context” or “how do you know your interpretation is correct” how do you know your choice of the church is correct? How do you know it’s not orientals or catholics or assyrians which are correct? It all comes down to our own epistemic certainty at the end of the day.

[@PhilAlumb]

​​@@Flame1500...Protestants lack structure and detail. And there are almost endless denominations--all claim interpretive rightness and dominance.

[@TP-om8of]

Help me Rhonda, help, help me Rhonda.

[@rexlion4510]

Gavin's comment about John Owen inspired me to look at what he's written. I wound up reading his homily on Scripture, and wow... he gives reasons for sola scriptura that I've never heard anywhere before. it was a treasure trove of quotes and ideas.

[@turnertruckandtractor]

Two great KZbinrs. Maybe a conservative confessional Lutheran body such as LCMS is what you are looking for as they strike that balance. Do a similar video with Pastor Wolfmueller or Weedon for content we could all benefit from.

[@havefaithlikeachildk3300]

Dear Eternal Father, I am praying for these wonderful people who are clearly seeking you with all their hearts. May you show them The Way just like you’ve shown up to me. We love you. My Lord, our King, lead them to your Mom, your Bride and The Truth. Bind their hearts to your Sacred Heart and to the Immaculate Heart of your Mom, that saved the whole world. Have mercy on us. Thank You for the grace of this prayer. In the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen 🙏🏻

[@crisgon9552]

Funny that Gavin doesn't hold his Calvanism/Reform view as a accretions. It definitely wasn't there in the beginning. He doesn't hold onto Infant Baptism or Baptismal Regeneration, are those accretions? Also wonder if he would tell Catholics to also stay Catholic instead of converting to his church. Can any honest man remain where they are if God calls them elsewhere? Although I guess God would never call a good Christian to EO or Catholicism

[@masterchief8179]

Oh, speaking only about Catholicism, God calls good Christians every day… Actually it is the good or even the great ones that usually come, while the poorly catechized and unfaithful Catholics are the ones who - probably getting trapped by some sentimental or social/ group experiences, combined with some de-contextualized Bible verses thrown at them - convert to Protestantism. There is a sentence in my country that says “a Igreja Católica nunca perde fiéis; ela apenas perde infiéis” (“The Catholic Church never loses numbers of the faithful, only the unfaithful”). Just by watching “The Cordial Catholic”, “The Coming Home International Network”, “The Journey Home” (by EWTN) and listening to the massive stories of great faithful and on fire former Baptists, Presbyterians, Calvinists of all sorts, Pentecostals, Anglicans and so forth - pastors, theologians, ministers, lay people, etc. - one can see that good Christians do indeed take this step through God’s will, even against a lot of mundane forces like social inertia, group / familial approval and even careers in some cases. God bless!

[@masterchief8179]

@@KJBChristian Nonsense, you are everywhere v0miting that Catholics are “not Christians” and “not brothers”. Now you imply “Catholics are in a cult” twisting what I’ve said, which is path3tic. That’s absolutely predictable from the type of sect you belong to.

[@rnhmbover63]

Being a Gavin Ortlund Protestant is the last step before deciding you need to study Apostolic Christianity

[@WanderingThief]

Absolutely true. Just completely in denial of what the Church Fathers really said, and just quote mining St. Augustine because they think it gives them legitimacy in the big boy’s club

[@huntz0r]

Or a William Lane Craig Protestant in my case.

[@rnhmbover63]

@@huntz0r Trust me brother you’ll be gavin ortlund camp v soon lol I was WLC before it asw😂GBY tho May God guide us all !

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

True story. 🤣

[@WanderingThief]

@@huntz0r I don’t know why you would follow an Apollinarian heretic, but ok.

[@leojmullins]

If the resurrection of Christ is believable Which and why of the supernatural events like the virgin birth, or the assumption, or the other miracles unbelievable to Protestants. It seems to me that Protestantism is, in fact, the underlying heresy facilitating the moderism that has gutted the full supernatural body of the original deposit of faith that has dulled and weakened it.

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

​@@KJBChristian maybe strawman, maybe not. Still valid questions.

[@bobbobberson5627]

@@KJBChristian Protestants don’t believe any of the same things since they lack normative authority. Every argument you pose to a papal Protestant has the potential to be a straw man depending on how they feel that day.

[@matthewashman1406]

because the resurrection is in the Bible

[@bobbobberson5627]

@@KJBChristian Protestants don’t believe any of the same things since they lack normative authority. Every argument you pose to a papal Protestant has the potential to be a strawman depending on how they feel that day.

[@graysonguinn1943]

what protestants deny the virgin birth lmao, unless we are talking the extreme liberal types

[@_ItBeMe_]

I appreciate the honesty of these conversations ❤

[@RevHDMcLain]

A tradition that I have discovered this year that has been very rich is Confessional Lutheranism. Coming from a revivalist background in Methodist and Baptist Churches, it has been refreshing to have that deep connection to history without denying the authority of The Scriptures. I would highly recommend anyone who is considering joining the Roman church or eastern churches to give Confessional Lutheranism a deep study and fair hearing.

[@MattBurrill]

A deep dive into the Puritans sounds fun

[@Seraph_888]

Never met a group more pressed than the orthodox in this comment section

[@CamGaylor]

Building architecture literally doesnt mean crap. The church is the people. I would rather have a meaningful service in a tent then a dead service in a cathedral.

[@huntz0r]

I would still rather have a meaningful service in a cathedral. I have been to a Divine Liturgy in a parish that was a unit in a strip mall. You can take any space and fill it with icons and incense and song, and it becomes beautiful. Building a cathedral is just an effort to take that to the next level, because the God we worship deserves all the beauty we can muster.

[@LadderOfDescent]

“I don’t want to have to start something new, I just want to _enter_ into the stream of tradition” That’s exactly what we should be doing. Christ gave us _everything_ as gift. The “trying to create your own” tradition is really tiresome and not what it’s about. It’s about being a receptionist of gifts that were given.

[@bobbobberson5627]

The 5 solas are accretions.

[@mousakandah5188]

The accretion argument is just an argument against Catholicism and Orthodoxy It is not an argument for Protestantism Protestants needs to understand that just because apostolic Christianity is false that doesn't make them correct In fact given the history of how the Canon was constructed If apostolic Christianity is false then this makes Protestantism even more questionable

[@mousakandah5188]

@@KJBChristian you mean the bible compiled using the same body of tradition and authority that you reject ?

[@countryboyred]

Bingo. If apostolic Christianity is false, we might as well all go home. The entire religion fails. Christianity was never meant to be a DIY, believe whatever you want, sort of system.

[@George-ur8ow]

LOL my man here thinks he's THE ONE with the Holy Spirit correctly interpreting 33,000 sentences of scripture. Just like the other founders of all of the other Protestant sects. Delusion. ​@@KJBChristian

[@catholicguy1073]

@@KJBChristianumm how do you know which books the HS decided was scripture? For that you’d need a church that is guided by the Holy Spirit and through its wisdom declared what books belong in the Bible. The Bible didn’t fall from the sky. It was compiled together by the CC and the CC determined what books are the canon.

[@mousakandah5188]

@@KJBChristian you sound confident, tell me how many books or papers have you read about the history of Canon construction?

[@sosooze]

The main issue I have with much of this conversation is how it’s all about what “you” can get out of the faith or what “I” can get out of the faith. The faith should be entirely about what GOD wants and God has made it very clear He wants to be worshiped the way established through Christ’s Bride, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

[@ricklarson392]

An excellent observation. It is very much a consumer approach to faith.

[@emiliomendoza653]

Everything you love about your Church. You will find in the Catholic Church and more! Open your heart and come home ❤️

[@juandoming6688]

Me no want to commit idolatry.

[@voievod9260]

Home is the Orthodox church, not your papist innovation driven dogma church led by a pope who blesses homosexual couples.

[@voievod9260]

​@@juandoming6688you already commit to idolatry. It is your own stupidity and ignorance.

[@De-Nigma]

Possibly (maybe, if you're very lucky), but it's the 'more' that's kind of the problem.

[@gardengirlmary]

Would love to hear your wifes perspective on this topic and as she has been with you on this journey. Would your wife ever come on to be interviewed in a video?

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

This is why Jesus left us a magisterium. It's a feature, not a bug.

[@vivekapihl5179]

Magisterium that is corrupt, mostly, was not something Jesus left us. It was forced us by kings and emperors becoming christians. No one knows any more which of the dogmas has been made to make a certain duke a king and to have the support of the noble men in that region. This is why I left catholicism even though I converted attending catholic masses. It was the gospel in the Bible that made me know Jesus, not the papacy or theology. And Bible in it's turn was gathered together by the magisteriumless community based church that knew their oral tradition to be a match with the written one circulating in the churches. The political magisterium then took the Bible in it's own name to be able to boast as a body who gave the Bible to the world.

[@dugw15]

"I'm waiting for some evidence that he left us a magisterium, and I'm familiar with many of the common arguments," is what I was about to say. And then I realized I'm not sure *precisely* what is meant by "magisterium". If it means "the Church's authority to teach correct doctrine" then yeah I believe in that! If it means "a specific body of specific persons which has the authority to declare to be true whatever doctrine they please regardless of evidence and issue real, effectual, eternal judgment against people for rejecting it, even if scripture does not indicate said doctrine is necessary for salvation." I realize the latter "definition" is inherently and intensely polemical. That's my real understanding of the magisterium, though. I don't know how to describe what I think the magisterium is without sounding that way. But before I ask for evidence that Jesus left us a magisterium, I figured I ought to clarify what YOU mean by it. What you mean by it MIGHT be something I actually believe in! And/or perhaps you can clarify my misunderstanding about it. When you say Jesus left us a magisterium, what do you mean by that?

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@vivekapihl5179 No offense, because I'm sure we both want to live and believe as Jesus would want us to, but there were many writings that many Christian communities accepted as Scripture that today are definitely not considered Scripture. It took a functioning magisterium to sort that out definitively. I know depending on a living magisterium can feel dangerous because of the very real sinful nature of the human beings involved, but I don't see any way around it. And Scripture points to this model again and again as God's way of dealing with his people.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@dugw15 Thank you for your well worded and thoughtful reply. I mean Jesus left us a doctrine-governing kind of Church that includes leaders ordained to pronounce things authoritatively. Throughout all of Church history (Old and New Testament) we see this model at work. It's only our modern conceptions of Church and society, rife with egalitarianism and individualism, that clouds our understanding. We hardly have kings anymore so we forget what a Kingdom should actually resemble, powers of the keys and all. This doesn't wave away abuses in any way, but it does insure us that "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." Does that help clarify where I'm coming from?

[@vivekapihl5179]

@@FrJohnBrownSJ also no offense, I appreciate you catholics a lot, but I think if we say that some books were taken away from the churches' circulation, we should be able to name those books and give a good reason why we did it. I just wonder how much of their content was not compatible with the political magisterium's aims, like for example baptizing in order to accept someone into state citizenship. Scripture points to the structure how the local church was organized but not explicitly to the hierarchy model modern catholic church is using. I do follow living leadership, organized very much like in the New Testament. But I follow it only to the point they are behaving and acting in a healthy way and producing good fruit. I do nothing with the leaders that cannot humble themselves to be corrected by the brothers. I won't be intimidated with any threats of eternal damnation when I leave a corrupt leadership. To throw threats like that is a very cult like thing, IMHO.

[@robinlutjohann6408]

Lutheranism is plenty joyful :)

[@miarymr8337]

I feel you, Justin. I understand how hard it can be to assent to some stuff historically speaking. However, one thing that spoke to me was the fact that I just can't assent to the idea that Protestantism holds, meaning, that the Early Church fell into a great apostasy. For me, believing that is almost equal to not believing Christ. Besides, when did the Church fell into apostasy anyways? Was it around 300 with Constantine? Was it when the Theotokos title was accepted for Mary? Was it later, when icons came into the scene? When was it and how do we know that we are right that the Church did indeed fall into apostasy? I mean, it's crazy how many left the Church in the first millennium thinking that they were right. I know it's scary, believing either one of these traditions, be it Catholicism or Orthodoxy (believe me, I'm there!). At the end, one thing that I've learned is that we need to do our homework, pray, and have faith when reason can't take us further. I'll be praying for you.

[@carlossardina3161]

Being Protestant does not entail that the early church fell in apostasy. You ought to read Gavin’s work if that’s your idea of Protestantism.

[@miarymr8337]

@@carlossardina3161 Well, does it entail then for some Protestants, because I know I've heard some talking about how the Church actually fell into apostasy, that the Church needed to be purified from all these accretions and that's why the Reformation started? My other question is, how do we know that the Reformers were right? Which of the denominations existing today within Protestantism have the fullness of Truth? Do we come to a conclusion because of historical evidence and what seems to make sense for us?

[@annalynn9325]

And how could the Church of the first millennium have totally lost the plot when Christ promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His church (Matthew 16:18)?

[@miarymr8337]

@@carlossardina3161 Idk why YT keeps deleting my comments but anyways... I understand that not all of Protestantism entails that the church fell into apostasy. However, it is true that some Protestants think so. And it is also true that other Protestants, or at least the Reformers, had in mind that they wanted to "go back to the sources" and take out all of the accretions that had crept into Catholicism. And that makes sense! I get it. However, the issue is, how can we know that it is the Reformers who were right? Every group who went into schism in the Early Church also thought they were right and they used Scripture to back them up. Another point. Do we know that they are right because they are using "Sola Scriptura"? All right, then, how do we know that Sola Scriptura is actually the way things are to be done? Is it because it's a lot safer since it's literally the canon of Scripture. All right, that makes sense too. However, isn't the fruits of disunity and confusion of Sola Scriptura the evidence that only Scripture by itself needs something else to work properly among the faithful? Who gave the Reformers the right to do what they did? Was it God? How do we know that? There is not a historical "line" that we can trace back to the Early Church when it comes to the Reformers. And I mean, even Mormons believe that God spoke to a man to restore the Church. My point is, being a Protestant feels discontinued with the Early Church. And at least for me, it's hard to remain Protestant after learning what I know now.

[@miarymr8337]

@@annalynn9325 I second this since I can't reply because somehow my replies keep disappearing.

[@elKarlo]

The renewal part is what gets me. The Protestant churches fall away too quickly and easily. There are no guardrails and in many cases many denominations go into outright heresy. I’d rather be catholic or orthodox with some of the issues than any Protestant.

[@Aspiring3033]

I have a question, how do Protestants deal with the fact that all the reformers had a very high almost Catholic view of Mary & some even said not to agree made you a heretic?

[@EpoRose1]

They claim no one got it right until whatever leader their specific sect came along.

[@EpoRose1]

@@KJBChristianSo it was wrong from apostolic times? Quite a claim.

[@Supastaab]

​​@@EpoRose1 @Aspiring3033 Most of the Marian dogmas (immaculate Conception, assumption) are not mentioned in any found writings until the 4th century - some 300+ years after Christ/the early church. Mary is held in relatively high regard in the 2nd & 3rd centuries, but nothing that elevates her above any other saint

[@ricklarson392]

Conversations like this amongst American Protestants amaze me because of the prevalence of "I" and "me:" I feel this way, I believe this way, I am not comfortable with. The "I" becomes the center, the judge, the arbitrator. It is very ego driven - frankly, a symptom of American Protestants, especially the Evangelical variety.

[@EpoRose1]

Since Jesus never told His disciples to write anything down or create a Bible… is the Bible an accretion? 🤔

[@pistum]

This is also what I have concluded. The closing of the canon, the thinking that public revelation has ceased, that the gospel are four books, uff, many things that could be considered an accretion by the first christians.

[@Irishherbs]

The Holy Spirit did.. .. As did he select Mary the Mother of God as a perfect vessel.. W home countless Saints prayed to without correction, for those doubting or protesting.. The Rosary is a gift from God I hope all come to the true faith,it is a joy and a blessing ♥

[@jfitz6517]

There’s a lot of mean spirited comments in this comment section. Thanks for the conversation fellas.

[@jackshannon777]

Excellent.

[@eplongmichael8880]

Jesus Christ promised to be with His Church till the end of the world. The dilemma that confronts protestants is this: either Luther was wrong or Christ did not fulfill His promise and abandoned the Church in its errors for fifteen hundred years until Luther appeared.

[@zacdredge3859]

Gavin: Says he'd prefer to unpack the question over 3 whole days but gives a brief answer nonetheless. Chat: Did someone ask for a fresh pile of tu quoque and a smattering of red herrings?

[@truthnotlies]

So the question was basically, Tell me why I should stay in Protestantism when it no longer makes sense? 😬

[@gabrielgabriel5177]

Actually opposite. He is saying protestantism makes more sence than other denominations, but it is not trendy to be protestants since everyone mocks protestants these days. His asking how to be glad about being protestant despite the bad reputition that protestants have in modern time.

[@truthnotlies]

@@gabrielgabriel5177 Protestantism is not one denomination lol... They all might be protesting something but they are all not the same.

[@gabrielgabriel5177]

@@truthnotlies yes of course its not one denomination. As you say thay are protesting the orthodox/catholic practises that has no evidence in early church history (icons, some doctrines of st Virgin Mary etc). But actually catholic and orthodox always speak about protestants as they would ne one single denomination. If you claim protestants do that or that you surely are wrong. Not all protestants do that.

[@annalynn9325]

For me it’s not just the protestant liturgy that’s lacking in reverence, and protestantism being a brain-focused faith, it’s also the complete lack of a call to holiness. Many protestants even believe that if you make an effort towards holiness you are “trying to save yourself by works” and “living like you can improve on Jesus’s sacrifice.” In the Episcopal denomination they have gorgeous and reverent liturgy and music, plus continuity with the past in that regard. But morally, it’s anything goes.

[@matthewashman1406]

Hey I'm a Pentecostal ,no brain involved here mate lol.. I have Catholic friends who always quote Greek philosophers that is brain focused to me.

[@annalynn9325]

@@matthewashman1406 Between brain-focused and no-brained, there’s a lot of territory. But agreed that the scholasticism of the Latin church changed the character of Christianity in the West to a philosophical system

[@truthnotlies]

I am currently being so enriched by learning about developing virtues in Catholic teaching. The Protestant stuff is falling so flat. It's this attitude of, "God will judge us but I mean we are all good anyways since we have faith! So don't worry about it or else you're going to feel sad and we wouldn't want that!!"

[@matthewashman1406]

@@truthnotlies have you ever read Wesley or finney ?or tozer ?I think you may have a little cynicism

[@truthnotlies]

@@matthewashman1406 I'm speaking more of the interactions I've had with people. And there definitely is less emphasis on developing virtues in Protestantism because to feel like you HAVE to do something = legalism.

[@Aarondavid1998]

The only problem with this question is that it is all up to the individual to find the church that fits their emotional needs. There really is only one church that Jesus founded and we shpuld conform ourselves to Jesus and not make His church conform to our emotional needs. There are always stumbling blocks to faith in any church community. What church did Jesus establish?

[@josiahalexander5697]

@@KJBChristian That’s silly.

[@ninjason57]

Which one indeed? The Roman Catholics claim to be the one true church but so do the Eastern Orthodox.

[@heidrichforgottenfaith]

Or you could get back to early church orthodoxy and orthopraxy by becoming an anabaptist. Check out Followers of the Way in Boston

[@weiduoliya-12]

I think it's a bit naive to be an "agent" for change in a church. It would be slightly absurd to call a meeting with the pastor and elders at a church and be like, "Hey guys. I'm a woman and new to this church, but I think you guys could really benefit from liturgy, receiving communion every week (preferably kneeling), and throw in a holy calendar we could follow." I don't think it would go well.

[@emiliomendoza653]

Brothers and sisters, Jesus Christ on the cross gives us his mother! Full of grace! Who can protect us from the evil one. She is part of the One true apostolic Church. Started by Jesus Christ 🙏 come home and experience the Eucharist ❤

[@SteveC-Aus]

Which Protestant church? There are thousands, all teaching contradictory theology and doctrines and all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit?

[@honestabe4161]

Gavin is starting to sound more and more like Francis Chan.

[@franklinhidalgo3683]

I will never understand protestantism… it’s irrational… it’s like the prodigal son in spite of it all wanting to remain apart from the family feeding with farm animals… perhaps there is an element of arrogance and stubbornness also…

[@phillipwoodfin-nb7ud]

Really appreciate these two. Great points.

[@WanderingThief]

Gavin once again makes the classic fallacy of equivocation with regards to the word “Protestant.” There really isn’t one unified thing called “Protestantism,” apart from those churches that are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. Gavin isn’t a member of the “platonic form” of Protestantism, rather he is a Baptist, plain and simple. What is the theological connection between Gavin’s theological tradition, and that of an Anglo-Catholic? Both are supposedly Protestant, yet the Anglo-Catholics consistently deny most or all of the five solas as articulated by the reformers. Furthermore, the Lutherans and Calvinists slaughtered the Anabaptists and persecuted them relentlessly. Where is the unified Protestant tradition in all of this? How can Gavin in good conscience recommend churches that were in open war with his church only a few hundred years ago? As long as Gavin leaves these questions unanswered from his end, the Orthodox and Catholics can provide reasoned and historical answers demonstrating that these answers along the lines of “you can still be Protestant and believe in x” simply don’t work. For example, “you can still be Protestant and believe in theosis.” In Orthodox theology, soteriology flows from Christology, we don’t form a patchwork quilt of the theological ideas we do and don’t like. This is mostly what I see from Gavin, and I think it also reflects on the wide difference between Protestant dogmas I pointed out. For instance, “Protestantism” can either look like a group of Quakers gathering in a circle of chairs in a blank room to pray for an hour, or it can look like an Anglican high mass in a cathedral with incense and icons. What, pray tell, is the connection between the two? There is none.

[@catholicguy1073]

There is one connection. Personal interpretation run amok. If I don’t like this group or agree with them I can go that group over there. Different Bible studies yet they are supposedly Protestant

[@nashman23]

Idk how he can recommend churches that now ordain trans women as priests.

[@ninjason57]

The connection is gathering for the sake of Jesus name

[@WanderingThief]

@@ninjason57 Are you posing that as an argument against what I commented? If so, Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses do that as well.

[@catholicguy1073]

@@ninjason57 which Jesus? They all have different interpretations

[@Greg-n]

The biggest and most horrendous accretion is the reformed view of the atonement ("penal" substitution) - which is the heretical notion that God the father expunged His Wrath on Christ during the crucifixion (as our sins were "imputed" to Christ), and that Christ's perfect righteousness was "imputed" to us which (through faith) is what makes us justified. The biggest problem here is that this view divides the love between the Trinity in order to justify the Christian "by faith alone" but it also claims that this "imputation" of Christ's righteousness to us is not a true and real eradication of sins but merely an external covering on the grounds of fiduciary faith (this is stated by the reformed confessions of faith) - which claim that we still remain inherently sinful. This appears to contradict scripture (2 Cor 5:17, 1John 1:9, Heb 10:10 et al). This view also leads to the idea that "God is reconciled to us" (Berkhof) which means there is a change in God's disposition toward us, but this would deny the doctrine of God's immutability (that He is unchanging). All of this has no basis in scripture, which actually states the opposite - (that WE are 'Reconciled to God:' 2 Cor 5:18-21, Rom 5:8-11). The Catholic Church believe in a "substitutionary" view of atonement (vicarious satisfaction through Love) but deny the "penal" substitutionary view based on retributive justice... a nominalist "accretion" of the reformed used to reinforce their novel theory of Justification.

[@truthnotlies]

THIS ☝🏻

[@CONDACOCLIPS]

The test is which Church reserves the Blessed Sacrament reverently to take to the sick and especially the dying!! Any protestant church can and should do this, but it is so, too Catholic and Orthodox...even some Anglicans do... this is the test guys!!

[@bluecomb5376]

I appreciate your vulnerability in recording these sessions knowing they will be dissected by Catholics and Orthodox alike. I really hope and pray you can find peace soon with these questions youre grappling with. I hope one day you will receive the overflow of grace found in the sacraments!

[@stephaniechan4714]

Much love to both you men. I left my Reformed background and was confirmed in the Catholic Church on Mother’s Day in 2023. The grace that has flowed to me through the sacrament of Reconciliation, the Eucharist, becoming sacramentally married, the friendship and intercession of the saints, and having close relationship with the Blessed Mother is beyond words. I am always becoming more fully alive the deeper I go into my Catholic faith. God bless you both. I appreciate your work.

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

So you were Presbyterian or Continental Reformed?

[@julianlamie5077]

Lutheranism!

[@WanderingThief]

The supposedly iconoclastic Ortlund has two icons of saints on his bookshelf? “If anyone shall endeavour to represent the forms of the Saints in lifeless pictures with material colours which are of no value (for this notion is vain and introduced by the devil), and does not rather represent their virtues as living images in himself, let him be anathema.” - Council of Hieria, Canon 16 Protestants, please make this make sense.

[@moses.coffee]

The EO anathematizes everyone who isn’t EO. Make that make sense and then ask away.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Those are my bookshelves :)

[@WanderingThief]

@@GospelSimplicity My bad, your setup looks a lot like his. Thanks for the correction!

[@herman_the_vermin]

@@moses.coffeewe don’t anathemtize everyone

[@RoyCarter]

There's so much intrinsically wrong with protestantism. Those are the things they never question, lol. That and it strips God from everything and redefines it all as symbolic. St Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle.......

[@SilouanSea]

@@RoyCarter True. If it's just icons and the Assumption... I mean, let's talk about the dozens and dozens of theological reasons NOT to be Protestant. Even if I did struggle accepting those two doctrines (though for us Orthodox one is dogma and the other isn't) I still can clearly see I'm in a better place.

[@ImmyT89]

​@@SilouanSeadozens can you name one?

[@SilouanSea]

@@ImmyT89 It's inherent schismatic nature. It's lack of coherent theological agreement on almost anything. It's denial of both Scripturally clear and historically consistent teaching of the efficacy of the Sacraments to convey actually grace (it's inability to have any sort credible or coherent consensus in this matter). It's invention of doctrines like the solas which no Christian in history taught until the 16th century. It's consistent inability to transcend the culture into which it finds itself and so it's constant race to make itself relevant, and become captured to the cultural moment.... Lots of reasons.

[@MediaevalGuitar]

Protestantism is always a man-made construct. Can such ever be the faith once for all delivered to the saints?

[@countryboyred]

Austin you are trying to make something work that simply doesn’t work. Protestantism doesn’t work. I know it’s difficult to accept. I was one for over 30 years. It’s a broken system.

[@ninjason57]

Which system works?

[@countryboyred]

@@ninjason57 I get tired of arguing online but an intellectually honest reading of church history and the church fathers doesn’t bode well for the Protestant position. That’s all I have to say on the matter, I’m sure you vehemently disagree. Have a nice day.

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

@@countryboyred It made me even more certain of high church Protestantism. Usually those who say that reading the Fathers or church history made them Catholic or Orthodox came from non denominational, Baptist or Pentecostal churches.

[@countryboyred]

@@pedroguimaraes6094 yes, high church Protestantism was definitely the tradition of the Christians of the first few centuries. We all know Jerome and Augustine were proud Anglicans 😂

[@pedroguimaraes6094]

@@countryboyred Neither Roman Catholicism lol. I would not talk much about Jerome with i were you, since he did not consider the deuterocanonicals to be Word of God and he wrote that the Early Church had a presbyterian hierarchy and that the reason it changed is due to bishops becoming power hungry.

[@justthink8952]

Bread and wine used as an image of Jesus's body & blood is blasphemy. We should treat them as what Jesus had said - this is my body; this is my blood. This is possible only when an authorised man person consecrate them to become the body and blood of Jesus Christ

[@sosooze]

Also, why does Gavin so badly want the Church to remain fractured? “Stay where you are”? Jesus would NEVER say that. So, if Gavin is not for Jesus, who exactly is he acting on behalf of?

[@matthewbroderick6287]

Faith ALONE and Scripture ALONE, are accretions, for it is by WORKS and NOT BY FAITH ALONE that we are JUSTIFIED, for even if one has ALL FAITH, but does not LOVE, IT IS USELESS, as Jesus Christ teaches that every BRANCH IN HIM, that does NOT BEAR FRUIT, THEY SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY. Plus, 6 of the 12 Apostles taught with oral authority and never wrote anything down! Peter the rock and sole key holder, authoritatively ruled that circumcision of the Flesh was no longer necessary, even though Holy Scripture said that it was. The same Church authority that existed way before the new testament was ever written! Dr. Ortlund has a bad habit of leaving out the complete writings of the Church Fathers! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink!

[@matthewbroderick6287]

@user-kp5gx6pp2v Gavin Ortlund claims Holy Scripture teaches faith ALONE, which it doesn't! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink

[@rnhmbover63]

@@KJBChristian sola fide was the bedrock of the reformation so that’s incredibly interesting. You must be non denom🙂‍↕️

[@newglof9558]

Never been to an evangelical megachurch. I kinda want to go.. theres one (not huge) that is near me

[@billyhw5492]

Maybe you can get your own fog machine and a Hillsong album and do it over Zoom.

[@OrthodoxInquirer]

​​@@billyhw5492There's one in Alabama we went to called Church of the Highlands. We went into one of the churches and sat down. The band played, people sang along, then it was time for the sermon and a screen showed the minister at the main church. We were all kind of shocked. Talk about a mega church! They have these satellites all over the state all playing the same video sermon from the main church. It actually turned my teen son against Christianity which was the reason we went there (to help him). His faith was sliding already. Seeing the fakeness and the showmanship was the last straw. I'm now becoming Orthodox and still pray he will, too. Btw, I'm sure people repent in those churches every day, it's whether they are getting solid discipleship and correct doctrine that I worry about.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

I always knew your heart longed for a coffee shop and a bowling alley in your church, just as Scripture alone commands it! Hahahaha

[@newglof9558]

​@@FrJohnBrownSJI know we Catholics clown on them but I find the evangelical focus on fellowship and an interior transformation (i.e. being "born again") is extremely interesting to me.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

@@newglof9558 of course. I know way too many men who picked up the pieces after a tragedy or a bout with alcoholism by leaning on their evangelical faith and friendship. In these times, we are allies more than enemies.

[@christophlindinger2267]

Protestantism isn't one unified block. Most denominations have split from others and don't agree with each other on many fundamentals. The same Puritans you keep mentioning probably believe you're on a straight road to hell if you don't live a puritan life.

[@Aspiring3033]

Also, no current Protestant church agrees with the reformers on their very high view of Mary to the point they said if you didn’t agree you were a heretic

[@christophlindinger2267]

@@KJBChristian it doesn't mean anything to be "Protestant". Gavin makes it sound as it's a thing to be "Protestant", when it just means something in relation to the Catholic Church, nothing in of itself.

[@christophlindinger2267]

@@Aspiring3033 used to be protestant (Lutheran), was born into it. Catholic for a couple of years now. It's also kind of funny that "Protestants" find it unbelievable that Mary was assumed into heaven but have no problem with Elijah assumed into heaven.

[@graysonguinn1943]

@@christophlindinger2267 the bible explicitly says one of those things happened

[@christophlindinger2267]

@@graysonguinn1943 everything that ever happened can't be written in the Bible. "Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." John 21:25

[@PatronSaintSpyridon]

I can’t put my finger on it but this guy does not sit right with me. He showed up at just the right time while many are coming to Christ and also converting to Catholicism/Orthodoxy. I don’t believe in coincidence.

[@truthnotlies]

Dude, I've been thinking the same every time I see him.

[@jonathanhamilton2504]

To one side he's bad news to the other he's a godsend. No need to make him out as a boogy man. Naturally Orthodox and Catholic should not like him. In those traditions you would go to hell if you listen to Ortlund. In the same way, Catholics shouldn't be in favor of Orthodox apologists and Orthodox shouldn't be in favor of Catholic ones. You'd go to hell for believing in the opposite side. I'm sure plenty of Baptists find the rise of Orthodoxy as equally ominous.

[@ninjason57]

He’s been around for a long time. Just because you’re just now noticing only means that you’re self centered.

[@sosooze]

Mary’s Assumption (Happy belated Feast of the Assumption btw!) is holding you back from receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Eucharist? Bruh! If Elijah could be assumed body and soul into Heaven, how much more could a case be made for Mary, the beloved mother of God, being assumed body and soul into Heaven? Quite likely. You can still believe she died and then was assumed into Heaven. It’s not as big an obstacle as you’re making it out to be.

[@joshuarivera2422]

But why make that a requirement for salvation?

[@briansanchez6699]

@@joshuarivera2422that question almost doesn’t compute from this perspective. It’s not up to us to make or justify these decisions. It’s our job to be faithful to the church because that being faithful to God. I can see why from a Protestant perspective it’s a natural question but it’s not an issue that should push you one way or the other but one that shows under what paradigm you are evaluating issues

[@joshuarivera2422]

@@briansanchez6699 but that is the thing, this type of stuff put in question the Church. Why put extra requirements for salvation, requirements that people for 1900 years did not had to believe to be saved.

[@sosooze]

@@joshuarivera2422 it is not a requirement for salvation. Even a basic google search asking the question of whether the Church holds it as a requirement for salvation quickly debunks this false notion.

[@graysonguinn1943]

G-d certainly loved the apostles, and the great saints of the old testament as well, why not say all of them were assumed and make it a dogmatic requirement

[@deogratias7625]

If you haven’t yet assented to all the Catholic teaches, the answer is to pray, read the history of the Church, read the writings of the Fathers, attend Mass and find a holy and wise Priest.

[@Niko-zg6uq]

These comments from Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodoxs did not pass the vibe check.

[@truthnotlies]

They actually do. They're based.

[@Niko-zg6uq]

@@truthnotlies Oh really? Both of them dogging so hard and for what? It's pretty pathetic.

[@Jordan-eh3fv]

Seriously. It comes off as pride to me, or maybe even fear. I can’t judge their hearts but that’s how it comes off.

[@RickysPlums]

Protestantism became mental masturbation for me. In America at least, it’s all about debating theology and pontificating over fine soteriological points. When I made the decision to convert to the Orthodox Church, it was because I see Christianity being lived out and experienced - and now I am a part of that experience. Nothing but love for all Christian traditions. Just sharing my experience.

[@fleshanbones1550]

Its easy: prostanism is the only place you have a chance of having actually biblical teaching. Catholicism is not biblical. Its grace alone, not grace and works. Romans 11:6 ESV [6] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. This verse alone proves catholicism is false. Theres many many others that disprove it

[@SilouanSea]

Doing a study on the Reformed view of the Lord's Supper sounds like the least joyful thing I could think of. Are you serious? Let's study why Christ isn't really present in the Supper. If that's the best Protestantism has, I am glad to not be one.

[@ThereAreAnswers-px8ms]

The whole idea is to protest. Protest protest protest. If there’s something within the Orthodox Church that has been around for so long then you may want to make some adjustments within yourself.

[@beautysk00ldropout]

6:13 isn't that exactly the attitude that would have avoided schism/divorce in our Christian family to begin with

[@BYZANTINEFINEST]

I think one of the issues Protestants have, & I speak from my own experience being a former Protestant believer. Is they never question certain things, & ask themselves why? 1.) Gavin point out, Charles Spurgeon says the Lord's Supper is the closest thing we have, to being in heaven with christ. So obviously it had to be the most important supper for Charles Spurgeon. But why? Bc there's always an answer. So a lot of Protestants never ask themselves these questions why, while reading the Bible. Bc there's always deep questions to ask why, in the Bible. But Prots never ask themselves why? Another ex: 2.) Why do the Saints have these prayers in their possession. Why does God not have these prayers in his possession. Did God have them first, then gave them to the Saints second. Do the Saints hold on to these prayers, then give them back to God. Bc if Jesus is the only one mediator for prayers only, then delivered them back to his father. Then why would these prayers be in the possession of the Saints at all? So there's all kinds of questions like these in the Bible alone. So what I always see most prots ignore the fact of, why do they have these prayers in the 1st place. Then some say something like, well this is in the future. So u can't make a doctrine off a future event. Or this is a vision from John, so u can't make a doctorate from a vision. So they're making up their own rules just to ignore Catholic & Orthodox Doctrines. Or I see some prots use the verbatim fallacy to say, where does it say people were praying to the Saints directly. Then the Saints have these prayers bc they were prayed to. So again they end up making something that's not even in the text. Just bc of their presuppositions. This is why we have to be open-minded when reading the Bible. This is why We all need to read church history together as one with the Bible as one. Bc we wouldn't have the Bible today without church history. So we can't separate the two. Bc I've even heard some Protestants say where does it say baptism in John 3:1-5. = ergo its not baptismal regeneration. So a lot end up making the Bible say what they want the Bible to say. Since it doesn't have these exact words I'm looking for in the Bible. Therefore I won't believe it's a biblical Doctrine. But that's just not how we arrive at any biblical Doctrines. And this is why the Bible teaches we have Bishops/Pastors, & teachers to teach us to help guide us to the truth. 1 Tim 3:15; Hebrews 13:17; Acts 20:28-29. Lord bless u all 🙏🏼🍞🍷☦

[@Bythegraceofgod1646]

6:43 - Note: Philip Schaff did not enter into church history until the 1800’s. So, if by church history, one means history at any point in time… that is easy enough for a Protestant. However, if one means by early church histor, the first-century church and the early, apostolic church fathers… that is not an easy deep dive for a Protestant (I know from experience- Protestant here, who is being increasingly lead through study of history to claims of Catholic Church 🙋‍♀️). Puritans are also 16th/17th century, again, easy Protestant history. Would have loved to hear Gavin speak about the more difficult writings of church history that sound much more Catholic than they do Protestant! Especially the letters of Ignatius.

[@erics7004]

I see the problem with the lacking of identity of protestantism, but the Roman Church is just so filled with weird doctrines. The abysmal difference between the church of the Bible and the Vatican is huge. We must remember why Luther did what he did.

[@rappmasterdugg6825]

1 Timothy 3:15 "It is, remember, the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of the truth."The Church founded by Christ and shepherded by the Holy Spirit existed before the New Testament. The Church had the authority to determine the books of the New Testament, and the Magisterium to interpret scripture (see: Doctrine of the Trinity). The Church has no doctrines in conflict with scripture.

[@jmdionishow]

And then there is the galactic difference between the church of the bible and protestantism. That was luther's doing, no one will ever forget that.

[@bobbobberson5627]

@@erics7004 “The Truth lies with the Greeks.” -Martin Luther

[@truthnotlies]

I will remember what Luther did and despair. Dude was not normal. Anyone who wants to burn down all the houses of a certain group of people is completely lost....

[@geoffjs]

Without the fullness of the Truth of His One True Catholic Church, it is impossible to find joy!