In the Prog Seat: The Who 'Tommy' & Queen 'II'...Are They Prog?

[@themusicden4696]

Something that I forgot to mention. Queen were asked to perform on Top Of The Pops, because Bowie couldn't do it. They had to re-record the backing track which was one of the BBC rules. Pete Townshend loaned Queen the studio he was recording in so they could get it done in time for the show. The track was 'Seven Seas Of Rhye'. After Queen's appearance on TOTP, 'Seven Seas Of Rhye' is in the British charts at number 10.

[@wadeharten6600]

If Rock music existed during King Arthur & the knights of the round table, Queen would have been the house band! Their first two albums were absolutely majestic! Call it whatever you want metal, prog? It was unique.

[@jeffreyheise3377]

I can see it.

[@themusicden4696]

In light of a certain comment that was made today I felt I needed to post a comment of my own. I, like you all, have been a fan of S.O.T. for just over a year now. When I was asked to be on S.O.T. I was honored because not many people have that opportunity. I have been on a few times and have enjoyed it immensely. I as a participant try and be as prepared as possible. But WE, the collective WE as humans, from time to time will make mistakes. It does not make us bad, or incompetent. It makes us HUMAN. I think I can speak for everybody on the panel, and all who appear on S.O.T. that we feel extremely fortunate to be asked to appear on these episodes. We also feel fortunate for the sense of community that has resulted from being apart of this fantastic channel. Please enjoy this episode in the spirit of which it was intended to be.......INFORMATIVE.....INSIGHTFUL.......ENTERTAINING.

[@adamsasso1]

I would also like to add that this channel not only serves to preserve music and culture for the younger generations, but also for people like me. I'm about to turn 53, and have listened to more music (because of Sea of Tranquility!) in the last year or so than i have in the last 20 years combined. I fell into the lazy categorical listening habits that industry imposed and eventually just began repeating the same old stuff I had always listened to. You guys all have expanded my musical universe exponentially and I thank you for that!

[@stevendavid5370]

LaBonte has made so many great points today. I listen to this channel to find the gems I listened to or missed years ago. I have bought so many albums based upon the content of this channel that Pete Pardo has created. Pete has put together an amazing group of people he has on the channel regularly, who know their stuff. I listen to this channel "All the Damn Time."

[@norbertx9415]

Agreed. Record labels should be spiffing Pete for increased sales. Savatage alone owes him a debt of gratitude.

[@Sammeep02]

Me too

[@dicobizdikian2461]

Boy, did he ever!!! Mr. LaBonte was really on his game here.

[@carstenselberg1255]

I was lucky to see The Who perform "Tommy" live at The Royal Theater in Copenhagen in 1970

[@MK-gv7qr]

I'm jealous. I love the live versions of Tommy.

[@attichatchsound-bobkowal5328]

What an AWESOME discussion! Another interesting similarity between The Who and Queen: Back then as live bands, they didn't even TRY to reproduce the sound of their records. The recordings were treated as very separate entities. Both bands relied on their distinctiveness, chemistry and raw power to deliver the essence of the material that was often layered ambitious productions on vinyl. in ways that made both bands MORE exciting live.

[@MK-gv7qr]

This was an amazing show. Thanks guys.👍I need to pick up Queen 2 ASAP.

[@maddysmith8846]

I’m with Armando on QII, it’s near enough prog that I consider it that way. My simple test is that if I decide to sit down for an afternoon or evening or of prog, QII is an album I’ll happily reach for along with all those great prog albums we referenced on Desert Island Prog. If it crosses genres that’s fine, it’s a fantastic album, my favourite Queen album. On Steven’s point about what we listen to being so broad, could not agree more. In addition to all the usual SOT stuff, you can tell from the comments that many of us like music, artists, bands rarely referenced here alongside what is and stuff never referred to. There are no boundaries with music and you can always discover news things, even “older” new things, which has definitely happened for me listening to SOT and interacting on the comments.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Great stuff Maddy. And likewise, SOT has widened my music tastes and collection as well!

[@elfensteen5222]

This is a wonderful show about "Music" thank you Pete and all guys of this show and channel..,Thanks !!

[@frankrehm3650]

THIS! What a very interesting conversation and episode this was. Definitely a lot of informative, eye-opening facts made throughout it. Thank you all for doing this.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Thanks Frank!

[@jmacallar]

Great conversation lads …..two fine albums and really enjoyed discussion of music in todays world….indeed, the song is taken for granted…times sure have changed…..thanks for your discussion….long live Prog , long live Rock and Roll!

[@simond1574]

To those two albums: I would call Tommy an experimental album. Just like some others in the 60s, that stretched the boundaries, like Ogden's Nut Gone Flake, Pet Sounds, Sgt Peppers... None of those are really prog, but they all gave vital impulses to the early prog scene. Kind of like Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin are not Metal, but Metal would be very different without those. Queen II is a prog album for me. Maybe not as explicitly as Close to the Edge. But it is more progressive than many later Yes albums, like Tormato, which just recycle the old recipes. Do they have weird instrumental passages? No. But Genesis for example were also no instrumental wankers. They are also not present with Porcupine Tree and some other bands, that are clearly prog. On a more general note: I do love prog. It's an important part of my life. But isn't it strange, that a genre, that has "progressive" in it's name today is so self-referencing and kind of narrow minded? If you compare the Debut of King Crimson with Red or Disciplines, it's like different bands in different genres. But today both is prog. So what about bands like Tears for fears, Talk Talk, Radiohead, Sigur Ros or Agalloch. None of these are rally progressive, but didn't they progress music much more than the 200th Yes clone?

[@sspbrazil]

Steven’s Prog criteria questions are great.

[@ericporter344]

Good stuff from Steven!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Thanks ssp. It would appear not everyone agrees! 😂

[@wolf1977]

@@TranquilityFireReid ...and that's OK...

[@spoteach]

Best show of the year (so far). Can't get enough of the prog seat.

[@johnmichaelwilliams6694]

Great discussion, gents, and several comments on point. Really enjoyed the points when veering off into the effect of the times, the technology, the history, etc. As someone born in the mid-50s, grew up at a time with some unbelievably great music. At the time, all I knew was what I enjoyed and never worried about what genre it was. The parents considered it all rock and roll. Long haired stuff? The Beatles. Bad boy rock and roll? The Rolling Stones. WTF is this? Zappa and The Mothers of Invention. Horns and jazz - Blood, Sweat & Tears or Chicago. This teenager had no idea the shelf life and long-term interest in this music at the time. Tommy was accepted as a rock opera - probably because of its length and that it appeared to all be related to one story. The use of an Overture probably supported that as well. Never really thought of either of these two albums as Prog but they certainly moved the musical form forward. And after watching discussions and reading debates of what belongs in what genres - particularly when some of it seems a bit of hair-splitting - have come to just accept other's categorizations and use them guidepost generalizations of what might be involved. It still boils down to what SoT promotes - we all hear things differently and we each like what we like. Thanks so much for this episode. Another example of why the In The Prog Seat episodes deserve viewing.

[@Sammeep02]

I've had two phases with Queen and have been into classic prog for the past few months. While I do not doubt that the first three Queen albums (maybe even Opera and/or Races as well) have progressive influences, calling Queen themselves prog is a little bit of a stretch. I consider Queen II, if anything, to be proto-power metal - especially given it was a power metal phase which led to the start of my second Queen phase. Queen are, however, a band that people such as myself can use as a precursor to exploring progressive rock.

[@martinkulkarni3569]

Queen are unique. Thy can’t be categorised. Which is one of the big reasons they have always been despised in the media. But who ever cared what they say and think. By the way Queen Greatest Hits has just sold 7 million copies in the UK, making it the biggest selling record of all time in the UK. Wonder what the media make of that!

[@dragijakic6511]

Tommy is fundamental concept rock opera album but not prog. Queen 2 is masterpiece. Call that whatever you want.

[@venanciahopkins1962]

Ogre Battle is very prog, Queen and the Who might not really be considered prog rock bands as a whole but both bands definitely had their progressive moments. I love the live version of Ogre Battle from the Live At Rainbow concert in 1974. I am a huge Queen fan to me Queen would definitely fit more of the art rock category. Queen's music and especially their older music was very theatrical because, Queen would put on very theatrical shows especially in the seventies and the music had to reflect the theatricality of Queen. For many years my favorite Queen albums were, A Night At The Opera, News Of The World and Jazz. I have recently really gotten more into Queen II and earlier Queen music, I find Queen II to be an amazing album. I don't even know why more of that album wasn't even played more on Classic Rock radio. Of course Queen had the big hits back in the seventies and eighties with Bohemian Rhapsody and Another One Bites The Dust but earlier less known Queen music needs to be more explored than just the stuff we heard on the radio all these years. Queen to me had elements of glam rock, prog, metal and later funk mixed in with show tune and classical elements. Queen to me just was an amazing band, I consider Freddie Mercury, Brian May, John Deacon and Roger Taylor to be music geniuses for exploring so many musical genres. No disrespect to the Who, Pete Townshend is one of the greatest songwriters ever in the rock realm. If I had to say which album to me was more progressive and what band was more progressive, I am going with Queen II and Queen in general. Great show and great topic I really enjoyed it. Queen is one of my favorite bands of all time and when Sea Of Tranquility has Queen as the topic, I will watch.

[@tmc1054]

Steve Reid's bingo prog check list is genius. I'm not intimate with either of these albums, though I am familar with the bands but that doesn't dilute the entertainment value of the show. Thank you all for renewing my passion in music and keep fighting the good fight.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Thanks TMC!

[@justamops]

Brilliant discussion tonight - one of my favorite SoT episodes ever. Cheers to you all! I have my own list of questions to help me decide whether something is prog, but Steven’s is much funnier. And as a Pete Townshend admirer and Lifehouse lover, when Luis pulled out that gray box set, I raised my arms to the sky with joy (yes, I have a copy too). I think Quadrophenia is a masterpiece, but I’m ten times more fascinated by Lifehouse (partially because Lifehouse is a science fiction story, and I’m an SF fan). I’d love to see you devote a whole show to it.

[@wolf1977]

The Lifehouse Chronicles is very cool but if I'm honest I like Quadrophenia even more...You must like Townshend's Psychoderelict too (the followup to his Iron Man) & his whole "Gridlife" concept. I have the video around here somewhere on VHS, I love it

[@dargbarnett]

As someone who is definitely "prog lite" I find the Prog Seat fascinating, it has certainly led me to listen to music I may not have discovered. As someone who is not an officiando of the genre I always classify prog as the music, and it's complexity, is as important as the song. Tommy is a classic concept album that tells a story, the theme is progressive, the music is not, but the songs are (in the main) great. Queen 2 is grandiose, theatrical but the songs are key to the overall concept of the album. The music compliments the songs but is not the priority above the songs (which is essentially my definition of prog). That said I am "prog lite" so as a kid who was first aware of music in UK glam era perhaps my simplistic view is explained there? Still a fascinating debate on the music of that age.

[@dicobizdikian2461]

Pete, first thing is that I love your style and the shows you come up with. Next, I don't know if I have ever been more stimulated, impressed and spellbound by a youtube show than this particular episode. Yes, it went a bit off the rails but the directional changes of this discussion really resonated with me personally. Keep doing your channel as long as you enjoy doing it and believe me, it does bring value to the masses. Queen II is the one for me and it definitely has "prog" moments and is the one I tend to listen to most. Kudos to ALL the panelists, especially the gentleman from Chicago who had some of the most salient points in this discussion. Keep up with the channel....and nice haircut.

[@patrickcrowther9195]

Pete Townshend liked King Crimson so much he wrote an extended piece praising ‘In the Court of the Crimson King’ that was used in press ads to publicise the album. At 42.20 top left, ‘a trick of the tail’.

[@keith.tdublin3268]

Absolutely fantastic show guys, SOT is on fire this week, between this episode and the HVS last night, it's been brilliant! Great insightful and brilliant discussions all round. Laughed out loud at Steven's Prog bingo. And I truely appreciated the sentiment of the last 25 mins or so, echoing my thoughts these days. Absolutely love Luis's relatively long winded anecdotes! Great show guys. Greetings from Dublin lads 🤘😀

[@steevenfrost]

I consider the Who's album "The Who Sell Out" is a concept album, based on how the typical music station served us up music in 1967. Music was sold as a commodity and Townsend is just doing the album tongue in cheek complete with making up their own inane jingles.it does have a brilliant song "i Can See For Miles".

[@michaeldallaway1988]

I don't see it with Tommy, unless you're equating concept albums with Prog. The conversation has made me reach for that album again though- 'Christmas' rules.

[@Tangram62]

Great debate guys, some of my favourite team members tonight. Rick, Steven, Luis and George. All that was missing was the sarcastic ray of sunshine from Lancashire England. Great show as usual Pete. How do you get the time to do these amazing shows and listen to all the music you do? There must be more than 24 hours in your day. Thanks guys for such an amazing channel.

[@marksimpson4258]

Now that's what I call a rock debate! Boy did you go of topic and rightly so, one of the best SOT shows you have done 👍 why? Because you all agree on good quality music and how poor music is today. Queen 2 is a masterpiece, but who cares now apart from us of our age?

[@attichatchsound-bobkowal5328]

Could "Ogre Battle" be seen as the first "Prog Metal" song? (or even"Great King Rat" on their debut?)

[@NelsonMontana1234]

The short answer -- they're not traditional prog which features intricate compositions and virtuoso musicianship -- much of which is derived from classical and jazz. But they are progressive in that they broke boundaries and explored new musical terrains.

[@kamranmalik8546]

This is an interesting topic the first two Queen albums are probably the most underappreciated gems in the band's catalogue. 'Queen II' I consider it to be both a Prog and a concept album, very heavy, Ogre Battle and Seven Seas of Rhye are my favorites. 'Tommy' I consider it to be a concept album not so much as a prog. I remember when I first started listening to bands like Floyd, Genesis, Queen, and The Who circa 2009-2010, I read and heard from people that albums like 'The Wall', 'Tommy', 'The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway' were considered "Rock Opera" I always assumed it had operatic sounds, which are clearly heard on 'The Trial'. In regard to "Rock Opera", I always associated that term with Queen since the operatic elements were heavily used in their first three albums most notably 'A Night at the Opera'.

[@martinkulkarni3569]

Queen II is not underrated at all. And certainly not by ‘proper’ Queen fans.

[@aidenswords5809]

Rock opera has nuthin 2 do with opera, its like dallas and dynasty are soap operas, it sort of means a play, a concept

[@EliteAstro_OfficialChannel]

@@martinkulkarni3569 Not by proper Queen fans, but It's definitely underrated by general rock fans.

[@martinkulkarni3569]

Queen II tattoo on your arm Armando! Huge respect! My favourite album from my favourite group, but I haven’t gone to that extreme, but they are on my wall, my screen saver, print, poster and every music medium.

[@captainbeyond7469]

Weather or not Queen II is Prog. IMO along with Physical Graffiti the two greatest masterpiece of the seventies.

[@arunsabherwal6256]

Before attempting to answer what is Prog and what is a concept album, there are a couple of documentaries on BBC4 by Rick Wakeman. These are a must watch. Anyway Tommy perfectly fits into the description of a prog and concept album , whereas Queen 2 has blemishes of progressive music. (Both being hard rock bands)

[@iainmspillane]

Great discussion tonight. In The Prog Seat is a highlight of the channel.

[@sspbrazil]

Good to see Armando and Eick back again.

[@shivering23]

Kudos to Armando, George, Luis and Steven for their analysis of things. Two documented influences on Tommy were classical music (via Kit Lambert & Pete Townshend) and The Pretty Things - SF Sorrow. SF Sorrow was probably the first 'rock opera' (it's up for debate) and Pete was familiar with it pre-Tommy. Tommy was not produced in a vacuum, neither was Queen II. Concept albums are not necessarily prog. Personally speaking, I love Tommy and Queen II is very good. But neither Queen II or Tommy is prog.......sorry folks.

[@wolf1977]

I agree, good panelists & a lively discussion that makes you think... "Concept albums are not necessarily prog" - to me pretty much all concept albums ("rock operas") are prog, as in "progressive", because of the storytelling aspects that make it such. The songs literally move the story forward in stages, the very definition of the word. That alone however doesn't make them "progressive rock" albums...No album by anyone was ever recorded in a vacuum. Sure others played with the rock opera concept prior to Tommy, even The Who themselves ("A Quick One, While He's Away") but that doesn't answer the question posed here. So I agree with you that not all concept (rock opera) albums are progressive rock albums...

[@guillermomaldonado6277]

A bunch of guys with tons of knowledge, talking about two masterpieces ...and just about 300 likes? C'mon people, what's not to like here?!

[@garyh.238]

Great episode this evening. I got a lot out of this session - especially a better understanding of the distinction between rock music which is progressive, versus what is PROG. I like that 10 point list of criteria which helps define how an album may or may not fall within the genre. Good insights and discussion tonight.

[@wolf1977]

Defining the terms is key, then developing a "check list" if you will, a series of yes/no questions. My check list for prog rock is different but I'm using the same methodology...

[@joedolenza7944]

Brilliant Steven! The ten questions!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Thanks Joe!

[@adamsasso1]

I remember being a kid (around 10 or so) in the late 70s and hearing a song on the radio that blew my mind. The DJ didn't say what it was, so I went down to the schoolyard where all the burnouts hung out smoking cigarettes (they always had a boombox playing - which, by the way, was how I heard a lot of rock music for the first time) and said: "What's that song that goes: 'da na na na na na, na na na..." Finally someone figured out that I was humming Black Dog and told me what album it was on. I ran home to see if it was in my mother's collection (it was - I had a young, cool mother!). That's how we had to research music 'back in the day' lol.

[@wolf1977]

I had a similar experience hearing Mahavishnu's "Birds Of Fire" for the first time in 1975, and Jeff Beck's "Scatterbrain" slightly later. Don't remember exactly where I first heard them but it was on radio (gotta love 70's outsider FM radio!) somewhere & they didn't identify who it was or the song title

[@adamsasso1]

@@wolf1977 so how'd you eventually figure it out?

[@wolf1977]

@@adamsasso1 Heard Beck again sometime later & they did identify him that time (I then ran out & spent all the money I had buying Jeff Beck lp's)...Not 100% sure but for Mahavishnu but I had a friend of a friend who absolutely loved two albums: Hendrix's Band Of Gypsys (which I was also listening to at the time) & Mahavishnu's live Between Nothingness & Eternity. I brought up the first one day & he started talking about the second. Then it clicked in my head, Birds Of Fire had to be by the same band. Again, money gone...BTW: Same guy I much later told about Gary Moore thinking that he'd react the same as every other person I'd ever met, as in "Who's that?". To my surprise he knew (and really liked) Moore too. I think that was Corridors Of Power...

[@adamsasso1]

@@wolf1977 Very cool!

[@oggidanailov6534]

Queen II is definitely in my top 10 albums of all time; B side in particular is phenomenal symphony of chaos and amazing melodies. It takes hundreds of listenings to start grasping some sort of order there. "Seven seas " does not fit there imo (similar to what Steven said). Prog? For sure the most proggy album they have and also it is unappreciated masterpiece, including throughout the Queen's gigantic fan community.

[@joedolenza7944]

I am not really a fan of either of these bands but very much enjoyed the conversation. Always learning...and laughing.The passion was definitely kicked up a few knotches tonight. Great show guys cheers!

[@stuarthecht8196]

The Who's Tommy and also Quadrophenia are, in my opinion, prog concept albums. I don't know the early Queen albums well enough to give a qualified assessment, so I need to start doing some makeup homework!

[@arnaudb.7669]

What a great discussion! Awesome.

[@billhewlett1214]

Queen 2 is the my favorite and probably the best one ☝️

[@knightvisioniixv]

This was a fantastic show, guys. Truthfully, I think the real discussion that took place was far more important than the actual question posed for this topic. Excellent insights coming from Steven and Luis. Armando and Rick had some good ones, too. I agree, as time went on, things seemed to get far more regimented and compartmentalized concerning genres and labels; They should serve as general guides, but not looked upon as the be all, end all - I've never cared for labels; Music is music. As far as Queen II, I'm not quite sure what it is, and you know what? I'm glad. My fav album of all-time. (Side note: I believe this album should be listened to front to back; it's not quite the same when certain tracks get singled-out - the full impact is lost when extracted from the larger whole, and taken out of sequence. 'The March of the Black Queen' should be heard after the preceding eight tracks, and the segue into 'Funny How Love Is' can't be clipped. Then there's 'Seven Seas of Rhye' to conclude the disc. I love The Who's Tommy, and come to think of it, that one should be listened to as a whole, too.)

[@wolf1977]

Yeah, genre labels themselves aren't bad or evil, it's down to how they're used. They have their place...

[@knightvisioniixv]

@@wolf1977 Yup :)

[@kenl2091]

Nice checklist, Steven, but of course, that's not all the numbers on the prog bingo card (just the ones chosen to get a 'Yes' answer) - you could have asked 'Is at least 50% of the music in a time signature other than 4/4?' 'Are there significant passages which borrow from the classical, jazz, folk or medieval styles?' 'is the instrumentation significantly outwith the drums/bass/guitar/vocals/piano archetype?'. Perhaps these are 'prog' tropes rather than 'progressive' though in which case, your assessment is absolutely accurate!. Queen 2 is definitely proggish though!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

You are spot on Ken. I weighted the questions (which I completely made up) to back my 'argument', but mainly to have a bit of fun. Your comments would suggest to me that you completely got the tone of the discussion. Great stuff!

[@martynhewitt91]

The Tommy story is about the abused becoming the abuser, therefore making distinctions rarely talked about in the 1960s but very relevant today. So, lyrically I find Tommy progressive. Musically, if it was a Neal Morse album it would be considered prog.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I completely agree Martyn.

[@wolf1977]

You're probably right but also Neal is clearly/historically a prog artist (who's also released some non-prog rock material) while The Who aren't, so it's a bit like comparing apples & oranges

[@michaelslowack903]

Brilliant episode of ITPS !!!

[@gregwatson3300]

Great conversation this time around.

[@ianmacdonald7987]

It was alluded to without anyone actually saying it but, back in the day, to hear this kind of music you had to buy it and because you’d invested in it you actually took the time to listen to it. And listen to it repeatedly, while you saved for your next one. Those albums became part of us because we knew them intimately. Albums these days are lucky if they get a couple of listens before the next one comes along. Accessibility to music is a great thing, but it has fundamentally changed the landscape of appreciation of music, and not for the better I’m afraid

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Agree 100% Ian!

[@martinkulkarni3569]

One of my favourite hobbies nowadays, on KZbin, is watching younger people discovering music I have loved for nearly fifty years (I’m now sixty). Interestingly, a lot of these people are black Americans. A lot of these people had never heard songs like Bo Rhap, More Than A Feeling, or Kansas music which is not Carry On.. Dust In The Wind! Following Armando, I only buy music in the material medium, not downloads. I have spent a huge amount of money, far to much money, buying the physical medium but because I want to own them, collect them.

[@jeffreyheise3377]

Great show. Two of my very favorite bands. Are these prog rock albums as we know it? No, but it is progressive. Keeps you thinking. Thanks to all of you.

[@JohnFiocchi]

A really interesting observation ! Thank you Pete for making this video! I remember people around me in 1969 calling Tommy a Rock album and never a Progressive Rock album. After I heard The Nice, King Crimson , etc....I went back and listened to Tommy again. The piece "Underture" in particular struck me as Prog...Some of the drumming reminded me of what Carl Palmer would do. Especially those fast rolls on the snare drum. Keith Moon was often noted to be sloppy, but on Tommy he plays wonderfully! Queen II seemed to have Prog elements as well. It was quite theatrical and had Prog leanings...although during that time period people often defined it as a Rock album and certainly not a Progressive Rock album. I always thought that both albums contained Prog sensibilities. I used to wonder about it.

[@sspbrazil]

Another great point Steven, the question “What kind of Music do you like?”. It’s undefinable to me too.

[@wolf1977]

I think it's definable with lots of exceptions...Maybe the number of exceptions makes the answer immaterial, as in "I like jazz fusion (which I do)". I also dislike lots of albums & songs that're labeled as fusion. Again I think genres & labels in music have their place...

[@kevinpeterson6468]

Tommy and Queen 2 are both very good albums. The Who and Queen are 2 of the best bands ever. Tommy is hard rock. Queen 2 is an album that has elements of art, hard rock, glam, metal and prog.

[@eltronics]

The takeaway as mentioned is Prog is what you make it. There were no sub genres in the 60's early 70's. It was music you liked, or music you didn't. Being of that generation, pretentious (used in this episode) attitudes towards different music these days are unfounded and unreal. The only question is, do you like it? That's it, simple, you own no one an explanation. Let the the "snobs" be who they are. I've made more friends through music than by any other means. A final point, I would love to talk to Prof Steven about music over several Guinnesses. You are so insightful.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

That is very kind of you MM. Thank you!

[@psychedelicpunkster6840]

Wow Great Discussion, very interesting and educational thanx Fella's 👍😎

[@ericporter344]

Interesting discussion about the albums. Enjoyed hearing everyone's views. The is it Prog question is always a slippery slope 😁 I liked Pete's point that bands in the 70s just did what they did, varied, experimental, trying to be unique, creating without labels. And Stevens point about being Progressive, moving forward, doing something different, Tommy was definitely The Who progressing. And George got right to the point, if you have to think about, then it's probably not

[@wolf1977]

Actually I think prog rock is "thinking music" for the rock music lover so there's nothing wrong with having to think about what you're listening to (I'd extend that to the "is it prog rock" question). I also think it really comes down to how you use these categories/genre labels, not that they exist or what they're called. Merely the fact that they exist isn't somehow bad or evil, it's when some start using them to say "Genre x sucks" or "I hate x". Generalizations can only go so far before they become invalid...I think Steven nails it with the Who's musical language at the time: rock (and macho rock at that), prog rock uses something different at its foundation. It's progressive (as in developing in stages, something new, etc) but not prog rock

[@alternativepreacher4516]

I am 20 and when it comes to the topic of casual listeners compared to more passionate listeners, I think it's more complicated than just a generational change. I know people of my age who listens to a lot of different stuff and older people (for example in my own family lol) with almost zero interest when it comes to any genre. The "sad" reality is, in my opinion, that most people regardless of their age are closer to the casual listener category than to the other. Great show as always and very interesting takes.

[@BlueDragonBot]

I agree. I’m 21 years old and have a pretty humble music collection, but it is growing! People often mistake our generation’s fortune as lack of passion for this type of stuff, which is not true. Don’t get me wrong, I do use streaming services, but only as a guide for what albums I should buy next. We have this technology to do so, it would be a shame not to use it. Like you said, it doesn’t matter what generation, there will be people who have no interest in this type of thing. I’ll show my dad, who is in his late 50s, my latest finds from the record shops I go to and he’ll say stuff like, “You know Im not interested in that stuff” or “Why can’t you just get the songs on your phone? Wouldn’t that be easier?”

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I was aware as I was saying that in the show that it wasn't really what I was trying to convey. I think that, in general, the rock scene was much more inclusive back before we had a million genre names for everything and people liked what they like. Clearly that's still true no matter of age and technology, but the media seem desperate to shove us all in boxes and limit what should fit where and why we should like certain things as apposed to others. So, apologies, I have 3 daughters all around the early to mid-20s and they have varied musical taste and varying passion for it, so I completely agree with you both.

[@BlueDragonBot]

@@TranquilityFireReid No need to apologize Steven. With your comment and after reviewing that part of the video, your point was clear. I think it got lost within the conversation with the other panelists (not to throw any of the others under the bus haha). But, thank you for clarifying nonetheless. It shows that you care about your audience, which is greatly appreciated. It was another great episode by the way. Cheers!

[@TranquilityFireReid]

@@BlueDragonBot Thank you, that is very much appreciated - and thanks for watching and taking the time to reply!

[@wolf1977]

I think casual music listeners always made up the majority of all listeners. If general popularity is any indication (# of streams, album sales, cd sales, charts, you name it...). "Thinking" music just doesn't sell as well, or anything that challenges listeners. The "pop" industry was built around that, mass-marketing music that appeals to the masses, not to individual/relatively small groups. It may be getting worse as life moves faster (as evidenced by the speeding up of technological advances for example), I think "smart" phones are a great example. Many are starting to blame them for recent trends like impaired social skills & increased dependence on technology, loss of critical thinking, behaviors that mimic addiction and so on. They're just so convenient & powerful, including listening to music. Personally I use my iPhone as a way to stream my locally saved (on pc) music library to my car, other than actual phone calls that's mostly it (well occasionally I'll look at News feeds & use GPS/Maps)

[@andrewcarr5923]

It saddens me that a lot of people of my age group (late forties) have sold off their vinyl/cd collections for a playlist on an iphone and a Bluetooth speaker.

[@wolf1977]

I guess I'm one of those (although I'm about 12 years older)...Sold all my vinyl years ago & all my cd's are in semi-permanent storage (can't remember the last time I touched an actual cd). Before that I ripped everything I thought was worth saving to mp3 files & since then have only downloaded music in mp3 format. Best thing I ever did for MANY reasons. I could have never afforded to amass the music library that I now have (56k tracks from 15k+ different albums & growing) in physical media & everything's totally portable/backed up. Also indexed & instantly searchable (not to mention the many releases no longer available on lp/cd). The playlist feature you mentioned is also HUGE, I've built close to 200 custom playlists to group together various tracks/artists based on all kinds of criteria, impossible to do with physical media (unless making mix tapes/cd's which I also used to do, what a pain that was!). I can stream that music to any system in the house (and outside of it too), not just BT speakers or my iPhone

[@andrewcarr5923]

@@wolf1977 My main preference is still the physical format, I've never lost that love for collecting and waiting for that new release/reissue from your favourite musicians/bands or hunting for that lost or obscure album and i still enjoy the artwork and booklet especially on the older reissues with the info and pictures but i can understand how people have embraced the digital format in terms of the ease of availability/accessibility and freeing up space.

[@wolf1977]

@@andrewcarr5923 The major thing (and possibly the only thing) I miss about vinyl is the cover art & liner notes. You can (mostly) get the notes digitally on the web but holding that cover & looking at the art was special. To get that same feeling I've bought a bunch of coffee table books about album cover art - at least gets me in that same ballpark as looking at the actual covers...

[@cleftturnip7774]

Tommy is an Opera because there's no dialogue ,it's all sung. Musicals have dialogue and singing. So I think Rock Opera is the perfect description.

[@cleftturnip7774]

@@hammock879 True. i think that is an exception though. I could be wrong

[@steveseim]

I'm not really a Queen fan, and Tommy is not one of my favorite Who albums, but this was a great discussion. Well done guys.

[@OMW66]

I’ve been and still am a massive fan of both bands. The Who since ‘82, and Queen since ‘79. For me two rock bands i love that touches so many styles. I play all their albums up to 1980 all the time, and i feel like every song is like an old friend. I know Queen better than The Who, and that’s all i want to say about that. The music is important, not the tag people put on it. Nice show guys.

[@salome5055]

Without defining the terms of what prog is, the discussion nonetheless disseminated the idea that the narrow genre partisanship which prevents you from listening to or appreciating fantastic music, is something we have to be aware of and try to combat. I would say that being faced with such a huge amount of music has progressively made this genre defining a way that people tackle what to listen to and the problem becomes worse. Thank you for a fascinating listen.

[@mikek8553]

As far as Tommy goes in my opinion it is kind of an "it's own thing" one of a kind album that closest comparison would be progressive rock but I don't think it is. But within context of the band it is extremely progressive from the previous albums, so.....?

[@TranquilityFireReid]

I'm with you Mike!

[@marthaworc7873]

My definition of Prog, after much thought, is this: Progressive music has interesting time signatures, but it is not jazz and lyrics that are timeless and the songs are usually much longer than 3 minutes. Prog is also usually harder to play than stuff that is not Prog. I feel all these conditions must be satisfied to call something Prog. I do realize that if you ask 10 people this question, you will probably come up with 10 different answers. Just a thought.

[@nectarinedreams7208]

That's a good point. Everybody has a different definition of what exactly is progressive rock, and I think that demonstrates how flawed the term is to begin with. Genre titles and definitions are made up on the fly, which leads to much confusion as the years go on.

[@markchivers9725]

Music is music is music. Genre does not matter to the genuine lover of music. Queen understood that. As did so many other artists. If you are dismissing/disparaging any genre (not micro ones), you are not a fan of music. You are a fan of psychological reinforcement.

[@wolf1977]

Musical genres & categories have their uses, but can't be the defining/sole element as to what you like/don't like. I agree with that...

[@jackofhearts1056]

To quote Bill Clinton, it depends on what the definition of the word "progressive" is. Progressive is defined as moving forward; advancing. Proceeding in steps; continuing steadily by increments. Open to or favoring new ideas, policies, or methods. By that definition, The Who's Tommy definitely is progressive. Tommy is brilliant and Townshend is a musical genius. Also, look or listen to footage of The Who live circa 69-71. It's rock, metal, pop, prog, blues. It's all there.

[@wolf1977]

I agree that's the definition of the word "progressive" but the question here was: is either album "progressive rock"? Not just whether either is moving the band forward or advancing them but whether they're actually considered to be "progressive rock". So that's the term that needs to be defined. To me Steven nails it with the Who's musical language at the time: rock (and macho rock at that), prog rock uses something different at its foundation. It's progressive (as in developing in stages, something new, etc) but not prog rock

[@jackofhearts1056]

@@wolf1977 Totally agree with you. Is it progressive or is it prog?

[@christianmaltais]

Prog is in many ways a marketing category, and a derogatory term used by critics. Many of the pillars of prog - Crimso, Floyd, Van der Graaf Generator, Genesis, etc. -didn't think of themselves as prog in the 70s, as far as I know. I'd be surprised if even Yes, Gentle Giant or ELP did. Were they great? Sure. Were they an actual artistic movement, with something like a shared vision or philosophy? Not so sure. One of the reasons why prog is so hard to define is precisely because the bands who defined the tropes that make the genre often have very little in common; at least that they don't also share with bands like Sabbath, Zeppelin, or even Miles Davis. As fans, prog is a useful word, because we all have a general idea of what it means. Some stuff clearly falls into that category. Some clearly doesn't. But at the same time, like all categories, it's both true and false. In many ways, in the 70s, there was no such thing as prog; it's just a convenient narrative we built around the period. For some musicians that came later, it definitely became a real, somewhat codified thing. But that was after it had basically died. It's more or less Bride of Prog, or Son of Prog. So was prog a real thing at the time? Depends how you look at it.

[@wolf1977]

"derogatory term used by critics" - I think that's true of some, maybe many. But what I find strange about that is that these folks make a living from reviewing music, so why would you crap on a whole genre that encompasses MANY bands & albums like that? In many ways you're biting the hand that feeds you. Instead be more specific with your critiques, apply that criticism to specific bands/albums & not to the entire genre. Seems to me that that type of generalization is almost always flawed (like someone saying that "the 90's sucked"), a more nuanced approach is called for...I don't necessarily go by what artists themselves say about their own music when it comes to these kinds of debates, I think they're just too close to it to be able to judge

[@christianmaltais]

@@wolf1977 At face value, the "prog is bad" narrative is, as you say, deeply flawed. But it's an easy way for a critic to appear snarky. Condescension is a good tactic for those who want to appear superior without actually earning it. Plus it creates a sense of ridicule people can rally around. "Let's all pick on the nerdy kid", etc. Criticism is itself mostly a product, and as is usually the case, "you pay for this, and they give you that". It's sold as a discussion on the merits of a piece of art. But what they're actually selling is the critic's persona. It's a lot like pro wrestling: they're pitching sports, but you're buying characters and drama. Critics are negative because it's easy and it sells. The critic is also sold as someone who knows more than you. Or someone who reinforces your own opinions.There's some basic psychological stuff that makes criticism work as an industry. Very little has to do with what critics are ostensibly talking about. That said, there are some great critics and commentators. I can think of a couple, including Pete. My favourite music critic is Claude Rajotte. He's known for being pretty scathing. But he's also very honest, knowledgeable, and truly loves music. So he might say an artist/album is terrible, for such-and-such reasons. But he'll also give you valid reasons why others might like it. So a good critic might say I really don't like early Marillion because I find it too derivative; it's not for me. But if you're looking for stuff that has a big Gabriel-Genesis vibe, with a great front man, there's a good chance you'll love it. In other words: find people of good faith, ignore the rest. That's my take on it anyway.

[@wolf1977]

@@christianmaltais Yes I agree, I'd say if you find a music critic you agree with most of the time then hang onto them like grim death (and if not then pretty much totally ignore them). Same for film critics...

[@martinkulkarni3569]

Brilliant video chat as always Pete!

[@markhaselow8315]

Funny that Rick brought up Elton John’s Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding. Just today I listened to Goodbye Yellow Brick Road and Blue Moves. And while I was listening, it occurred to me that both of these album openers were very much progressive pieces. On GYBR, Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding is a killer prog-style opener. On Blue Moves, Your Starter For… and Tonight are coupled to make a great prog-style piece. Also, the way We All Fall In Love Sometimes segways into Curtains as the closer for Capt. Fantastic is kinda’ proggy, though I don’t think any of these albums are “prog” albums. I think progressive rock just develops from a jam, and expands naturally into an epic rock song, (ie. In My Time Of Dying), whereas ‘prog’ is more intentionally written and played, (ie. Stairway To Heaven).

[@joaopintojr6780]

Great topic, great point of views. 👏🏻

[@paulwelch1992]

If Steve Wilson doesn't want to remix it then it's not Prog..

[@wolf1977]

...and the corollary: If Stephen Wilson does remix it then it must have needed remixing...or not...🤷‍♂️

[@glenfinston704]

These are both fantastic records, each completely unique in their own way. Both of these I’ve held in high esteem for a long long time. Are they prog? Does it matter? Maybe not but great idea to single these out.

[@stevenlennon12]

theres a man ive found that can bring us all joy theres a doctor ive found can cure the boy a doctor ive found can cure the boy... theres a man ive found that can remove this sorrow he lives in this town lets see him tomorrow. lets see him tomorrow. ( this song alone is worth the price of admission)

[@26scootinkitten19]

Queen II ...all time fave album

[@williamlangan5902]

I like the look on Pete's face as he holds up the 2 CD's!

[@katesjanice]

Luis' comment about Townsend & Daltrey brings Kansas to mind, except Kansas had 2 songwriters - Livgren & Walsh. You can always tell who wrote what just by listening. Steve wrote straight-ahead rock. In fact, in an interview, he said that the only song he wrote that he was proud of was "Point of Know Return." Kerry "the Maestro" on the other hand, composed, orchestrated, wrote the lyrics, and played many of the instruments on all the prog music, which happen to be the better songs by far and made Kansas a full-fledged prog band. No question there. Fortunately, Steve had the perfect voice to sing Kerry's incredible songs. I don't consider either of the albums under consideration tonight to be progressive. In places here & there, yes, prog peeks through. But neither The Who nor Queen were prog bands.

[@giles7662]

I think there is such a thing as hard rock/progressive rock crossover, and I feel both these albums fit into that category. I would put Magnum's first two albums, Alice Cooper's Welcome To My Nightmare and Demon's The Plague, British Standard Approved and Spaced Out Money in there too.

[@TranquilityFireReid]

Well said Giles!

[@progger53]

I call Queen's early stuff "Prog related". But both bands are into pomp rock.

[@floyd75dylan]

When Stephen was asking Pete those questions, & Pete was answering yes. It reminded me of Meatloaf’s song, You Took the Words Right Out of My Mouth, where Meatloaf was saying yes in various ways. I do like the original Tommy album, but some tracks on the movie version are better than the original. Acid Queen by Tina Turner, Pinball Wizard by Elton John are phenomenal. I’m Free, & Listening To You are amazing. I’m Free the movie soundtrack absolutely emphasises the character’s joy that he’s free from his disabilities. Whereas the original is more of a gentle hippy take, & doesn’t capture the amazement of what he’s overcome. Listening To You the movie soundtrack like I’m Free, moves away from the gentle hippy sound to a more powerful track, & Roger really gives it his all & it ends the album on a massive high. I absolutely love Queen II is amazing. It is such an eclectic album covering various genres & styles, they were a clever band, & knew what worked & what didn’t (apart from Hot Space).

[@dangaucher2245]

As a fitting sentiment for this episode all i got is "Funny Howe Love Is"

[@carlwarmington5325]

Great show!! It's all Rock music is what we said back in the 70s 🙂

[@cornelius812]

Thank you Gentlemen for a informative enjoyable 90 minutes.

[@Ft.Gagiano]

I loved Queen 2. Since high school days. I loved Tommy also.. but these days I would rather listen to Tommy done live. on Leeds/Wiight ect.

[@joedolenza7944]

A great show idea I think inspired by Armondo, for any SOT SHOW, if haven't done already...albums where bands found their sound?

[@rocket69218]

I like Tommy, but when I listen to the album, it's an experience that reminds me of listening to 'Peter and the Wolf' when I was a kid. I agree with some of the panel it's more like 'rock theater' to me. ... and to be honest the original album isn't even that 'rock' it became very 'rock' live but the album is pretty mellow and stripped down.

[@lazarossamaras4427]

The bottom line is simple, they are 2 of the greatest album of all time, they have different moods and styles within them. Someone calls that prog or not, it doesn't matter. We can just enjoy them. Your conclusion couldn't be closest to the reality.

[@michaelfavreau7617]

Tommy - Is it a concept album, yes. Is it prog , no

[@wolf1977]

I think it's "prog" (as in progressive) but not "prog rock", I suspect we agree...

[@neonknight821]

Personally I wouldn't call either album Prog. 'Tommy' to me is a rock opera and Queen II is a mix of hard rock and glam rock with art rock and progressive rock elements but I wouldn't call it Prog.

[@dbcooper4666]

Really good insight of two great albums. One believe I don’t agree with is that if it wasn’t for particular albums then there wouldn’t be etc etc.. that is a huge call. These progressive rock musicians such as Genesis etc I believe would have found their way whether the Who was on the planet or not, so to say there wouldn’t be a particular Genesis album without Tommy is bizarre

[@Wayner71]

Yeah, I think Steven has a point. Back then many musically adept bands were doing their own thing and creating individualized progressive music. But there was no specific genre called "Prog". They were listening to each other and expanding their range and repertoire but they were not following a template. Only in hindsight can we apply that template and call it "Prog". If we were in the Early 70's now we would be seeking imaginative albums that explore new territory. But now we can define those albums as Prog (or not) based on that defined historical record.

[@wolf1977]

I think prog rock existed as a genre by 1974 but not yet (at least not widely) in 1969. I've read that as early as 1966 Melody Maker used the term "progressive pop" to apply to bands like Zappa, Cream & Love. I'm pretty sure that it was in "circulation" and being used by music reviewers & journalists by 1973 anyway, so pre-Queen II. You're right that in hindsight a lot of music gets recategorized/relabeled, but I think that's true of just about anything given the passage of time. I think it'd be impossible to mentally travel back to 1969 and the time Tommy came out & be able to accurately judge it in that time. It wouldn't be prog rock then because except for a very few instances that genre didn't really exist yet, you have to forward at least a few years in time to get enough perspective on it in order to properly judge it

[@TranquilityFireReid]

What is remarkably interesting is just how diverse the opinions are in the comments. There is basically zero consensus on either album as you read people's thoughts. It's fascinating in a good way. I agree, but have a problem with, retro fitting things as prog, or not, for the very reasons you mention.

[@patrickcrowther9195]

Luis has such a great way with words. However I have to quibble with his description of ‘Tommy’s story as ‘borderline idiotic’. There’s nothing borderline about it, it *is* idiotic. But highly enjoyable idiocy. I think that’s why the film version worked so well, as Ken Russell’s lunacy was the perfect match and it created some unforgettable moments.

[@wolf1977]

It also doesn't really go towards answering the basic question posed here. A story doesn't have to make sense to be a story, or be realistic. If so lots of works of fiction wouldn't exist...I love the Ken Russell film (for Ann-Margret alone & Elton John's scenes)

[@lahloonatic]

I would agree, if Townshend didn’t obsess about explaining the meaning of the story. He is a very intelligent man, articulate, well-read. Yet, he fails miserably. Why? Because he is trying g to explain deep, unresolved emotion. That’s the power of his music.

[@wolf1977]

@@lahloonatic I think if there were less explanation it (in the film version anyway) would've been an even bigger mess, like one of those films where you literally don't know from one minute to the next what's happening (I'll just mention the name David Lynch). At least in Tommy (the film) you can follow along, whether you like the story or not, or think it's an idiotic plot line. Rolling Stone had a really good "discussion" with Townshend re: Tommy from 1969 (still posted to their web site) & the ultimate initial inspiration for it ("Glow Girl"). Said Townshend: Tommy is a "play between self and illusory self. It’s expressed by Tommy (the real self) who can see nothing but his reflection (illusory self) in the mirror - “There had to be a loophole so I could show this. The boy has closed himself up completely as a result of the murder and his parents’ pressures, and the only thing he can see is his reflection in the mirror. This reflection - his illusory self - turns out to be his eventual salvation." To me at least that is crystal clear in the film & also on the album. More so on the former of course because we can both hear and see what's happening (unlike Tommy himself)...He then gets into some deeper underlying meanings (God, life, humanity etc) where he does lose me a bit, but I'd say that's more of a testament to his intelligence & insight that clearly surpass my own. I bow to the master!

[@jamesthousandkings5406]

Prog Charts Radio includes The Who in their Top 300 Artists that they play on their channel. I have only heard them play Tommy and Quadrophenia however. They state that they play some rock bands who have progressive albums. They do not play any Queen. Great free music App if you love Prog. FYI

[@wolf1977]

Just FYI: I don't these types of streaming services at all but have found in the past when sampling others & their "similar artists" lists (or something along those lines) they always came up with some really bizarre picks that they claimed were related to the root artist/song/album that I had picked. This is typically based on proprietary algorithms. I've never heard of this particular channel until now but they have this posted on their site (as you said they do feature some non-prog bands with prog albums, and specifically list The Who as one of those): "A band or artist does NOT need their entire body of work to be progressive to be included, so long as some of their catalog is considered prog. For example, David Bowie, Todd Rundgren, 10cc, The Who, Genesis, Supertramp, etc., had important prog albums, but not all their output was progressive." ...Looks like it might be an interesting listen...

[@jamesthousandkings5406]

@@wolf1977 I've had this App on my phone and iPad for months and never had any issues. It is not really a service, and more like a radio station. I listen to it everyday. In fact as I type this they are playing a song from Quadrophenia!

[@joedolenza7944]

Great show everyone!

[@darkhymnsfromthecoldnorth]

Not really a fan of either band, but I'll watch anything with these guys.

[@frederickhoward8407]

I was called ignorant for suggesting "Tommy" should at least be in the conversation 7 months ago. Ask a prog musician if they're prog and half will say no. Do a proto prog show please