India's Big Bet on Sodium Ion Batteries

[@drewduncan5774]

This channel is so great. I get so excited when I see a new video is up. I'd like to tell you how much I appreciate the time and effort you put into these topics... But first: The Asianometry Newsletter.

[@Asianometry]

Now back to the show

[@Paulkjoss]

Yeah this channel has become a fav of late - great topics covered eloquently with just the right amount of dry humor… 😁 Alright guys, that’s it for tonight…

[@MrNitisharya]

Reliance can pull off almost anything with their money muscle

[@theghost1109]

i was recently researching/ gathering information on this sodium ion batteries the sodium ion battery is the next big thing if developed and researched in efficient way, as its abundant metal when compared to lithium. it will have huge impact on counties producing LIon batteries.

[@jonasghafur4940]

@@MrNitisharya I’d be interested in the monetary cost of defying the literal laws of physics? It may even be a bit too much for them, I’m afraid 😁

[@superchargedpetrolhead]

Reliance industries are an absolute behemoth, they very rarely fail. Jio is a telecom business from them, when jio launched they gave free unlimited 4g data for their users for months up until that point most Indians couldn't afford few GB's of 4g data because other companies were literally sucking people out by their exorbitant price. Their rate for mobile data plans are so low, many competitors went out of business because they just couldn't compete. Even today India has the cheapest mobile data rates in the whole world and it is because of Jio. So, it is safe to assume that they would never put their finger in something unless they know what they are doing.

[@manishholla]

As an Indian I agree. But they gave 4gb per day initially for free and not unlimited

[@abhaykejriwal]

@@manishholla As far as I remember, initially at the beginning of their launch they gave unlimited 4g data absolutely free. It is no joke to say that they revolutionized the whole mobile network industry in india. Other companies didn't even have 4G all over the country but Jio not only brought 4G to the whole country at once it gave it for free, at least for the first year. They was simply no competition. In fact, if not for being forced by the other telecom networks to actually charge money, it would have wiped the industry clean.

[@prashanthb6521]

They succeed because they are in India. Because they can keep the govt in their pockets easily. Lets see if they can do the same in foreign lands. I dont think they can.

[@freelancer1499]

Jio and most of Reliance's businesses are local and deal with local competition. These Sodium-ion batteries are competing globally and against China's commercial, scaling up from prototype to mass production capabilities. An all new different ball game. Reliance's investments also pale in comparison to China's companies, not to mention they seem to be the only viable dosmetic player and lack competitors to spur them even more to improve. To be revelant in the global stage would alrdy a major success for Reliance in Sodium Ion batteries.

[@lightboi9752]

@@prashanthb6521 har ek desh me yehi hua hai....specex, Google, Amazon sab yehi kar rahe hai....

[@prashantjha5629]

Reliance's Sodium ion battery choice is basis a simple understanding that China has cornered most of the lithium supplies in the world. So only way to grow battery storage at scale would be to use such an easily available raw material. With 1/2 or 1/3rd the energy density Faradion batteries would mostly find usage in renewable grid storage, off grid electricity networks or captive energy storage for industries - market for which already exists or is growing rapidly in India given that energy demand would easily double in India in next 10 years

[@PankajDoharey]

The assumption is wrong because the biggest source of Lithium currently are in bolivia, but this doesnt factor in that new sources could be found or perhaps new ways to concentrate Sea water could be found, that alone will solve Lithium problem for the world.

[@prashantjha5629]

@@PankajDoharey Nothing much has been found locally and every other international lithium deposit will be highly contested. Seawater desalination can provide some lithium but it's not done at scale in India (needed but not done)

[@schroedingershat7912]

If you're not insisting on making a huge, heavy, luxury car and catering to range anxiety, then 1/3rd the energy density is absolutely fine for EVs or ebikes. Range is generally cost limited rather than weight or volume limited in both.

[@TheCort1971]

@@prashantjha5629 we have an entire mountain of it here in the us. do some research.

[@TheCort1971]

@@prashantjha5629 60000 tons per year out of thacker pass. think again pal. expected lifespan of the mine is over 30 years. again. do some research before making comments.

[@MusicalMemeology]

As a chemist, sodium is 3x the weight of lithium and weight is critical to efficiency. Stationary storage it may work but not transport imho.

[@eugeneng2721]

That's what I thought too, but it turns out that the cation only accounts for a small fraction of the total mass of a battery. It's possible increase efficiency elsewhere to compensate, such as the electrodes.

[@revbem141]

sodium is also a significantly larger atom so energy density will be low.

[@DrSAM69]

it would be perfect to store energy from renewables if it doesn't degrade as quickly as lithium ion cella, i also heard that these sodium batteries can be fully discharged to 0 volts without any damage to the cell.

[@DrSAM69]

hopefully aluminum ion batteries will become a thing in the future once they solve all the problems, theoretically aluminium ion batteries can have almost 3 times the energy density of lithium ion cells and I read that they can get punctured without any fire hazard.

[@_--_--_]

@@DrSAM69 Well bad luck, cycle life is significantly worse than even lead acid, let alone li-ion. Li-ion has actually great cycle life, LiFePo even better. Compare Li-ion to other technologies such as NiMH, NiCd or gel lead acid (lead acid type with best cycle life) and you will see how Li-ion is in a completly different league.

[@ajjunair83]

As a Reliance shareholder I can vouch that the company seldom fails what it plans. RIL invested in Shale Gas company Atlas way before Shale oil was a thing.

[@BlackHawkTejas]

Ditto! They never invest in a company or tech that won't be successful in minting money.

[@ARay-zt6ie]

Does the Smartstore making them money? I have some doubt but equally they have a huge purse.

[@planeteuropa]

@@ARay-zt6ie the smartphone and telcom is more of a reflection to the wish of their late father and founder Dirubhai Ambani, who wanted a low cost , cheap as possible communication infra across India , affordable for the masses.

[@alchemist7412]

@@planeteuropa Well they started making it unaffordable now. They used to provide 1.5 GB per day for 84 days for 400 ₹. Now they revised it to 1.5 GB/day for 54 days for 490 ₹. This is what you would call a monopoly.

[@prajnyan]

@@alchemist7412 But before that wasnt 1GB of 3G about 250₹? Unlimited calling and unlimited data plans on 4G started with Jio. And most competion couldnt survive the 1 year period where Reliance was giving everything free. (Docomo, BSNL, Aircel, Idea, MTS, Uninor etc.)

[@appliedengineering4001]

Here's one of the biggest problems that this battery technology has to compete with. Lithium ion batteries have what's call "up-cycle" value. What does this mean you ask? Li-ion batteries as they age, lose their "power" density long before they lose their "energy" density. Electric cars require that the battery have a high power density and once that power density wears off(the battery's internal resistance goes up.) and when it comes time to replace the battery in your EV. That used battery, witch can still have more than 90% of its energy density left. Can be moved to another application that requires less "power density" from the battery. like solar off-grid applications or even grid storage and UPS applications. An typical EV battery can have a up-cycle(Hand me down.) life of more then 30 years before finally hitting the recycler. And the thing is, as more EV's hit the road. There's gonna be lots more used batteries hitting the market and at some point. the market is gonna be saturated and you will have a hard time giving away these used EV batteries, let alone, selling them. I really think that this Na-ion battery technology is really gonna be facing some hard-hard competition ahead.

[@prunix7]

Interesting point of view! Altough is hard to believe that a LiIon battery would survive 30years, even though it's "cycle life" isn't exhausted.

[@markharmon4963]

Interesting point and compelling. Lithium ion is constrained by its supply line. Sodium ion would not appear to be. Therefore it can meet the current demand. It also holds promise of improving its energy density.

[@TheBriansle]

So what’s the adv of Na battery in terms of power vs energy density? Does it hold power density longer but loses its energy density more quickly?

[@sanjeev.rao3791]

@@prunix7 additionally, researchers are finding more ways to extract life out of recycled batteries - with some groups claiming that certain recycling processes can actually make Li-ion batteries MORE efficient/energy dense than brand new ones.

[@tatradak]

Well I think your not incorrect but renewable wind, hydro, solar is actually useless unless there is a storage system but its needs a layered solution so one solution quick pump and dump is ideal....

[@nikolatasev4948]

Cost for ingredients for batteries is relatively fixed, while cost of manufacturing drops sharply with technology/time and scale. At some point the ingredient cost will begin to dominate and cheaper material batteries will start getting competitive... as long as they can benefit from the technologies used to produce Li-ion batteries. Na-ion batteries seem similar enough, and suitable enough for grid storage, and I think this will dominate the battery market in the long term. I absolutely agree British companies have sometimes amazing tech and find it hard to commercialize. Reaction Engines is a company that I follow for quite some time, they had the potential to be the SpaceX of this generation with their SABRE engine. But now SpaceX already scaled into booster reuse, and I don't see them competing without being bought by Arianespace or something like that.

[@RexAlfieLee]

Coming from Oz the sodium battery doesn't have the foundation to be useful here in vehicles but in stationary mode it sounds like a real possibility especially here in Oz. India is a large country but it's dwarfed by Australia & our cross country excursions can be up to 4000km if you're driving from Sydney to Perth. We have the sun like India does but storage of electricity is quite expensive using lithium. Home battery based electricity needs to catch up to the solar panels revolution over the past ten years; ie the massive decrease in cost. Batteries may be cheaper but they're still very expensive.

[@hmmmm6685]

Bit late here. Ur assessment is correct,can sodium outperform lithium answer is big noooo. But they can outperform cost wise and faradion has shown 80% density of lithium high end battery. So a budget car with 500km range. (with extra 50kg weight) is more than easily possible. So sodium battery has no use in Tesla and mercedes but a low end car.i think very much.

[@RexAlfieLee]

@@hmmmm6685 when many countries can't use a product viably it tends to offset productiveness. Standing batteries makes sense but mobile batteries using sodium this way doesn't for a car. Cheaper manufacture & permanence for home power makes more sense than wasting high level lithium batteries. Once they've deteriorated past 80% that would change.

[@siyzerix]

@@RexAlfieLee I'd say batteries would be real helpful in bicycles. Bicycles are great for cities and as seen in Japan they can be used to provide assistance to go up hills, no necessarily power the bicycle.

[@RexAlfieLee]

@@siyzerix sorry but you're better off with lithium. Sodium doesn't have the density & to get the distance means a lot of weight. Sure they're lighter but that's offset by the reduction in range.

[@siyzerix]

@@RexAlfieLee Ah, I didn't mean have the cycle be completely powered by the battery. Of course that wouldn't work. I meant have it be enough to help power through uphill sections maybe. Or stuff like that. Thats how some of the smart cycles in Japan work. Thought it might be sufficient for that.

[@jonwatte4293]

I agree that stationary would be a sweet spot. Whole house batteries are coming strong, and pricing 30% cheaper than Tesla powerwall would scale quite far as a business. Grid storage is also huge, and not particularly weight dependent. Lots of solar during the day, shift to peak hours in the evening, and last until the morning!

[@bloepje]

Indeed, we have negative power prices at peak solar hours.

[@madsam0320]

If sodium iron carbon fibre can be made into bricks, it can be electricity storage incorporated into the walls of the house.

[@jonwatte4293]

@@madsam0320 I like the systems thinking here, but in practice, there are overheads for charge control, safety, and containment, that may make larger modules more economical. But why not build a wall out of larger battery modules, as long as you live in a climate where that works?

[@madsam0320]

@@jonwatte4293 I was thinking of larger bricks, more like concrete blocks, that are more manageable for construction. In hot countries like India, a layer of insulation on inside the wall with shades outside and ventilation in between. In cold climates, those batteries on the inside with insulations on outer layer will provide heat while charging and discharging. Sodium ions as electrolytes, carbon as anode and iron as cathode while providing structural strengths. All are cheap, freely available materials selected for their abundance. Some other minerals probably still be needed, for performances, in small amounts. The batteries and supporting accessories should be modular, fully produced and assembled in factories like Lego parts.

[@rohitghoshal]

Reliance has also made a huge investment in Ambri's liquid metal battery

[@stevensmith2078]

It was unclear to me whether the issue Faradion has was manufacturing at scale to lower its cost or whether there is a fundamental issue of cost that cannot be overcome by economies of scale. Any insight is appreciated.

[@kushalvora7682]

Economies of scale must apply here or else reliance wouldn't have invested here.

[@موسى_7]

Sodium-ion is cheaper than Lithium-ion if done at the samw scale

[@SharkFishSF]

Probably the use would not be for transportation.

[@SF-li9kh]

With powerplants still using Coal it won't be commercialized. But stricter regulations force storage of electricity. Imagine if a whole city can generate power during the day and store it in batteries. Just like a home. Only a very rich company can purchase or build say 100MW worth batteries. That is 20 million USD. Now people can burn dirty coal and generate 100MW at such a small small price. Only stricter regulations can help.

[@SharkFishSF]

@@SF-li9kh no way. Powerplants have exemptions since they produce electricity which is a resource that powers hospitals, and vital businesses. No penalties atleast in India as far as I know. 30 year old Vikrams still ply in our roads producing thick black smoke, as a sign that govt can't do anything.

[@neti_neti_]

उपशीर्षक प्रदान करने के लिए आपका बहुत बहुत धन्यवाद।

[@Majorhantines]

I would like to recommend a view in the LED chip production, as it turned mostly away from Europe to (South East) Asia.

[@Asianometry]

I’ve done a little on the subject but the videos haven’t really done well

[@NoNameAtAll2]

@@Asianometry link?

[@honza970]

@@NoNameAtAll2 Look for BOE Technology: Apple's next OLED supplier. It's a journey from Japan/Korea to China, but principles are same.

[@nicholasaustin2717]

I was happy to see the chart at 4:25 I have. I am just a curious person with new professional knowledge on batteries. I have been very curious when building a house battery, why I need such small batteries. They’re stationary so weight isn’t an issue and vibration durability isn’t an issue. I could easily store batteries that are 50x less dense, which should allow for additional air flow. I really only need enough power for about 2 days. I would gladly take a battery the size of the device that added 24 hours of power to the device. I would be willing to buy a 24v 160Ah battery the size of a refrigerator if it was modular, had a long service life, and was cheaper.

[@LinuxLuddite]

It's probably would be costly and would have to be subsidised by the govt and for that the govt have to be really involved in promoting it.

[@AsbestosMuffins]

in terms of grid storage these are absolutely the way to go since they don't require rare earth metals and are much more stable and not prone to catching on fire

[@mememaster147]

10:00 You can blame this on the Thatcherites. Heavy industry in the UK was floundering in the 70s so they responded to this by actively deindustrialising the UK. We now no longer have the industrial base to support new tech at a large scale like Faradion needs to progress.

[@Reikianolla]

Explain to me exactly which policies you mean.

[@sympathiser_of_Germans_in_40s]

I suppose that's what karma looks like, Colonial rule systematically broke down Indian industries and Economy now it your turn I guess.

[@LinuxLuddite]

@@sympathiser_of_Germans_in_40s tu har jagah bas colonials ko ghusa bc

[@clivestainlesssteelwomble7665]

@@Reikianolla Basically the govt switched all focus onto the service industry s and the finance sector and the City of London... where most of their friends and funding was based ... Removing the manufacturing and heavy industries base enabled them to break the Unions and remove or reduce the influence of blue collar working class areas. They also sold off a large part of the social housing stock... But also banned the Local regional governments who built and managed much of the public housing stock from investing the money they did get from the sales in building new housing stock. Instead they handed it over to a few major house builders .....bad idea poor quality, poor planning, value and a few charity/housing associations being charged with providing social housing ...hence the biggest problem now in affordable housing. Being cynical you might say its repeated a case of central Govt selling the familly silver to play the money markets slot machines owned by them and their old school mates.. Whilst laundering billions of dodgy dictators cash ...for a price.

[@Knight_Kin]

Heavy Industry is restricted, as much as anything, by climate change policies in western nations. Then there's the 'it's just easier to outsource' mentality, plus the encouragement of only white collar work while dejecting blue collar work as not meaningful/fulfilling/only for 'low class people'. That's how it was culturally in the USA for decades and massive outsourcing followed. This only started to change around 2015 as larger and larger (especially since 2020) percentage of the population accepting industry back as a means to de globalize supply chains. I imagine the UK will go through something similar if it's not already.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

That e-bike looks like a ridiculously bad idea - could have been medium-sized local storage too, for home solar installations. I guess Britain doesn't have enough solar with all that fog. But exiting the EU to lose the access to it's huge market of solar energy solutions, and the EU funding programmes etc etc... now that was the really bad idea.

[@vladimirseven777]

They have wind turbines that also require storage and atomic stations that require something to reduce peaks. I guess british problem is their island cannot swim. They should consider ARM success by licensing their technology.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

@@vladimirseven777 Yeah, you don't really have wind or nuclear power at home needing a medium-sized local solution like the Tesla wall thing. That's the kind of project that could have got exposition in Europe. But some shed-sized buffer batteries have already gone up in flames, a safer alternative could have had a chance there too.

[@DevinDTV]

you don't need local energy production to benefit from energy storage. i would save tons of money just storing power from the grid during off-peak hours and using the stored battery power during peak hours with my insane Californian power costs unfortunately I don't own the house I'm in i don't know what power costs are like in the UK but I'm sure it'd be a good deal for people in many places

[@WobblycogsUk]

@@DevinDTV Power costs in the UK are unbelievable at the moment. We've pushed hard to move away from coal power and installed a lot of gas power in it's place. The whole of Europe suffered a cold winter last year so burnt more gas than usual and supplies still aren't back to normal. There are certain political issues as well with where Europe gets a lot of it's gas from. The future doesn't look great either. We're installing wind power like there's no tomorrow (see Dogger Bank for example) but without energy storage that still leaves us vulnerable. Solar is mostly viable in the UK, certainly in the southern half anyway, you're talking 10 to 12 years for payback.

[@EyesOfByes]

Just signed up for the newsletter 👍🏽 5:44 Btw, you nailed the "Uppsala" intonation 🇸🇪☺️ For real

[@yash_kambli]

Could u do the same kinda video on Aluminium air battery/fuel cell? Recently Indian oil corporation had shown real interest in it and has got tie-up with Israeli based start-up named phinergy.

[@varun2250]

One can believe/show interest in an technology when it is really commercially viable. A lot of start ups and their benefactors lose time and interest while researching these nascent technologies. So when they start production, then the details can thoroughly discussed.

[@chidam333]

Log9 materials is a cool battery technology startup from India they are working on graphite and stuff !

[@sony5244]

This is a good investment from Reliance, now the problem for Reliance is to manufacture it in large scale and to make the battery affordable and competitive. Also Reliance should invest heavily on R&D to make the battery better And ties up with universities like IIT'S and others .

[@kaustubhraizada]

They will buy the r&d of Nordic countries

[@pikachu5647]

in stationary power use case this tech needs to beat traditional lead acid batteries, which are still the most common batteries in homes and electric rickshaws.

[@TheControlPhilosopher]

I would like you to cover India's Aluminium - Air battery ambitions in good depth. Most videos that exist on KZbin just replay the promises. It is against this that I want you to do some good research. See.. When a piece of Aluminium is kept in a strong alkali, the metal will get eaten-up to produce hydrogen gas instead of electricity, even when the external load-circuit is disconnected! This means that there must be a way to drain-out the electrolyte when the battery is idle. Some researchers in the US have tried filling the battery with oil to protect the Aluminium when not in in use. I don't see these features in Phinergy's technology as yet. Kindly investigate & report on this aspect.. Unless this issue is resolved, there's no future for Aluminium - Air batteries & India's great hopes would be shattered.

[@thunderb00m]

Aluminium air is never going to work

[@planeteuropa]

Each country has its own peculiar advantages and disadvantages when it comes to energy generation and distribution. A technology not viable in one may be just right in another. Solar cells have already reached its best upper limit so far of 31% efficiency .. and panels are in production and shipping stage. That combined with a low cost storage system will be a winner in many countries like India. And now we hear about lithium sulphur batteries with thrice the energy capacity of current lithium ion batteries. If this comes into the market , Sodium ion will lose out.

[@Miguelsw]

If they target grid storage, then they’ll need to compete with a host of emerging tech including iron oxide (rust batteries) and zinc oxide batteries.

[@Charvak-Atheist]

Reliance has invested in 3 battery companies. 1. Faradion - Na ion - Aquired 2. Ambri- Liquid Metal battery- Investment 3. Lithium Works- Lithium Phosphate- Aquired So they are not betting on just one. It's farely balanced and calculated bet. And remember they are into Grid Scale energy storage, not in EV battery space. So weight of the system doesn't matter much.

[@MagierMax]

So in short these batteries are: bigger, heavier, safer, more sustainable and you would pay the early adopter price increase so it's a hard sell?

[@موسى_7]

But they'll be cheaper in the future.

[@jaredgarbo3679]

@@موسى_7 In 20 years maybe.

[@BlackHawkTejas]

@@jaredgarbo3679 Not 20 years! Same argument is/was used for Li-ion. Having alternative option is always good & with time & technological advancements it may become successful commercial product.

[@jss7668]

Sodium and safe . Both are difficult to put together.

[@موسى_7]

@@BlackHawkTejas even if it is twenty years, better late than never

[@aitor9185]

Awesome content! I would be super happy to see your take on the emerging graphene industry :) I especially like the approach by Graphenea

[@Charvak-Atheist]

Reliance has invested in 3 battery companies. 1. Faradion - Na ion - Aquired 2. Ambri- Liquid Metal battery- Investment 3. Lithium Works- Lithium Phosphate- Aquired So they are not betting on just one. It's farely balanced and calculated bet. And remember they are into Grid Scale energy storage, not in EV battery space. So weight of the system doesn't matter much.

[@rayoflight62]

You pointed the the truth about lithium batteries. The cost of lithium and cobalt are a minute fraction in the total equation of global pricing; wherever cost and availability of lithium and cobalt are mentioned as a problem to the technology, that is both a lie and an excuse. Your insightful analysis are both precise and correct, and represent a very high value for who is in the trade. You are a very generous person for offering your correctly collated information here on YT, free for everyone. While I have no use for these info, I like to keep in tune with what surrounds me, so I'm always eager to watch your videos. A Thanks, which isn't enough. Regards,

[@II-ii2um]

Great video Asianometry. Keep em coming!

[@limbus0]

This is a not a 'bet' by the Indian government, as the title suggests, but by a private Indian company. Massive difference.

[@bobpritham2660]

That is if you see recent finance bill.

[@Aruneh]

I appreciate the effort you put into pronouncing names correctly, shows that you care.

[@dienelt5661]

I feel like the best way to see progress in a field that is somewhat stagnating (until the alternatives get economically viable), is to see big actors taking bets on differents technologies and refine them as much as possible.

[@deepg2477]

China: Hey we make the best li-ion batteries in the world.. India: Hold my salt..

[@chaz4609]

Jai Hinduja. Feradion will drive out CATL from the battery space.

[@TheTruthSeeker756]

Sodium ion isn’t going to work for anything that moves because of energy density problem. It weighs way too much. But it could be used successfully in stationary application where you have a lot of room

[@Zerpentsa6598]

I used to think that computers are ok as mainframes because they are so huge but not as portables coz of the weight and the thermionic valves will not survive any G forces. Didn't see ic coming.

[@stupidburp]

It is lighter than lead acid and potentially competitive with it on cost at scale

[@TheTruthSeeker756]

@@stupidburp Who wants lead acid? Ways a TON

[@darshan5726]

​@@TheTruthSeeker756 thats why sodium ion can easily replace lead acid

[@arnecl9566]

Nice and good video! Love the subtitles btw

[@valopf7866]

I think this battery variant is best suited for stationary energy storage. Anyway, it's very exciting to see all the research in batteries now that electric cars a rocketing in popularity. Even if most of them are not exactly market ready, humanity and with it future tech will immensely benefit from these developments today.

[@tonysu8860]

IMO all the comments in this forum are off base saying that there is no market for "mobile" use... More accurately, there is probably no market for mobile use that requires pushing the range limit of mobility. For uses where mobility isn't far like warehouse vehicles, these batteries might pencil out. Otherwise, the energy density problem is a major issue compared to Lithium, and likely because of the positions of each on the periodic table. So, there is a physics limitation that can't be overcome. So, a lot of people rightly look for uses where weight, volume and density aren't issues like home or metropolitan grid storage. But then, I'd suggest that sodium-ion becomes competitive only compared to lithium-ion which IMO is a common but stupid use of lithium battery materials. A far better competitor is thermal storage, even using molten sodium as one possible medium. Thermal storage is a very basic and easily understood technology, and the use, availability and choices for insulating and retaining thermal are well known. If you're looking at inexpensive storage that can be recycled indefinitely(electrical batteries all wear out and decay), thermal has no competitor.

[@stupidburp]

I think that sodium ion can also potentially replace lead acid batteries for under hood use in all types of vehicles. Cost and supply of raw materials are the main factors for these and the market potential is huge. They don’t necessarily have to be the product for primary energy storage in long range electric vehicles. There are other applications where they can be a good fit, including pretty much displacing lead acid products once price comes down at scale.

[@zo2913]

One thing I have learned about India. They are not stupid people. If they are betting on this tech. Then this tech must have legs.

[@helltrigger87]

The Brits are known for talking not manufacturing. My money is already in Catl 💰

[@DanBurgaud]

12:30 retail "Lithium Ion Batteries" are not getting cheaper. A 10KWH LiFePo4 battery pack in 2020 would cost almost x2 today 2022 and the price keeps increasing: +3% in April and another ~4% in May. Industrial wise, maybe it was getting cheaper if bought in bulk like 100MWH worth of batteries or so....

[@stupidburp]

Supply of lithium is constrained while demand is growing. This leads to higher costs. Sodium ion could be cost competitive not only with lithium ion but even with lead acid at scale

[@bobheide]

Narration is excellent. Clear and easy to understand.Very well done.

[@RabbitEarsCh]

"With a chunk of that 100 million pounds, they might even be able to buy a house in London now" is too real... Thank you for the thorough dive into the market. I've been wondering why we're stuck with lithium for certain applications where we expect to need large volumes of the mineral that will need to be replaced at likely enormous cost as we run out of lithium (grid storage), and it looks like Reliance is making big moves to change that.

[@chintamanidesai1768]

Great! I visited your channel for the first time, today. Overwhelmed! Very honest and transparent presentation. Which is a very Rare Entity, nowadays. You made my Day... today!!

[@WesstLmfao]

I can't thank you enough for putting subtitles into your videos! thank you.

[@t.vigneshnayak7886]

Thank you so much for bringing content related to India ❤️😀.

[@Zerpentsa6598]

Pity it won't talk about toilets.

[@alchemist7412]

@@Zerpentsa6598 Pity KZbin is banned in China & you CCP workers are only here to troll CCP's enemies

[@darshan5726]

​@@Zerpentsa6598 because your mind is filled with poop

[@neti_neti_]

अति गहन शोध , प्रज्ञा विश्लेषण और सुन्दर प्रस्तुति।

[@iceberg789]

they can replace lead acid batteries at least. everybody should encourage usage of sodium ion for stationery use.

[@dougrault2608]

So if we use nuclear power to provide power and desalinate water we could use the brine to make sodium batteries?

[@agritech802]

Thanks for a great presentation, you mention Lithium battery storage costs of $130/kWh but to buy a home battery storage costs about $1,000/kWh, what's the discrepancy, am I missing something?

[@kennyg1358]

Similar reasons to a pair of shoes costing $5 to make are selling at the shops for $180

[@Wellhamster]

Can you make a video about Northvolt? As one of the most important battery manufacturers in Europe it seems very interesting. They got almost 2000 Employees in just 6 years - from zero. Thanks a lot for making this high quality content!

[@trollking202]

Can make a battery LIFE POWER 😮 if the electric bill is still open?

[@Maratha382]

Excellent research. You deserve a million subs!

[@luke144]

Hell yeah India!

[@soumyananda2528]

Lithium ion battery is approaching it's saturation as it very rare with large chunk of reserve in China .India is developing al- ion , Na-ion battery tech with partnership of Israel, Australia . India is baiting big time on hydrogen as primary fuel.

[@NaumRusomarov]

it might become a really big deal in the future, but afaik lithium isn't the limiting factor for batteries right now, it doesn't even contribute that much to the final cost. Lithium could become very valuable and far more expensive in the future, so if I were a company I'd also be looking into Na-ion batteries, but really that isn't the limiting factor right now. you still have to build the manufacturing capacity.

[@gauravdp]

Fantastic content. Watching this was a worthwhile use of my time. Thank you.

[@firstname1lastname127]

6:39 is that typo? Did they mean Lithium Iron Phosphate? Or did they mean normal Lithium Ion batteries, which don't have phosphate in them? In 2015 there weren't really any Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries is cars that I'm aware of.

[@craigkdillon]

In transport, weight is very important. However, in home use, such as batteries for home solar systems, weight, and size are not critical. Cost & safety & reliability are most important. I can see sodium ion batteries taking over that space. Right now, a 10,000kw battery costs about $10,000. If that cost can be brought down to $5,000 or less, demand would take off, IMO.

[@shashwats7960]

Do you mean really 10 megawatts or do you mean 10 kilowatts. I honestly wanna know

[@craigkdillon]

@@shashwats7960 10kw. Sorry.

[@badrinair]

excellent topic.. Hopefully reliance can bring forth a alternative cell chemistry at large scale and compete with Li-ion

[@vsiegel]

Commercializing is hard, everybody has difficulties when he has a discovery and "just wants to sell it as a product" or something like that. Just selling it as a patent may work.

[@friartuckfriartuck]

maraming salamat po!!! MABUHAY!!!

[@w0ttheh3ll]

Only 4% of the weight in a LIB is actually Lithium, and in the currently most energy dense batteries, only about half of the Lithium is usable for energy storage. (The number is much better for LFP). What I'm getting at is that Sodium Ion Batteries that are more energy dense than the current best LIBs could be made despite Na+ being heavier and having slightly lower potential compared to Li+.

[@stupidburp]

They are lighter than lead acid and projected to be cost and feature competitive with it at scale.

[@AjayTiwari-en9nz]

Good point. Also, sodium is less corrosive than Lithium, which means cheaper aluminum can be used in casings and connections as compared to high-quality steel and copper. Secondly, aluminum is lighter than copper and steel, which may eventually mean that sodium batteries might even be lighter than Lithium Ion batteries.

[@sneedsfeed757]

Never thought you would cover this reliance has done quite a number of acquisition and MOUs recently they have bought a stake in a robotics warehouse company too also the faradion deal would be mostly for solar energy storage for which many projects are coming up with 1-2 already in tendering process for huge gigawatt scale battery storage.Also please cover the Kutch solar park that thing is literally huge project 40-50 gigawatt hour scale solar and wind projects

[@bgshin2879]

Although many quotes Na battery being safer, what I an ware is, once it catches fire and heat up to extreme temperature, it will react violently with moisture/ water. ie if a vehicle or a power storage unit catches fire, apply water to extinguish the fire would cause it to explode.

[@lachry4019]

True, though all other batteries also require non water fire suppressants so that's not a bid deal

[@jimurrata6785]

Does the salt on your table burst into flames if it gets wet? Sodium ion batteries use sodium _compounds_ for the cathode. And from what I read (typically) hard carbon as the anode. But it is advances in battery chemistry that will hopefully make sodium ion competitive.

[@georgedang449]

With grid storage, there are some really bulky, really cheap solutions such as gravity and molten metal, etc. 30% cheaper than lithium ion and zero percent cheaper than cadmium metal hydrate simply wouldn't be competitive, anywhere.

[@SurajKumar-xu9ll]

Isn't it Lithium "iron" phosphate? 6:39. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[@srinivasvaranasi1645]

Sodium is abundant compared to lithium and has lesser ethical issues in mining. Iy may have energy density very comparable to lithium ion batteries. A great possible solution to stationary energy storage. As an EV user, I am also OK not having many hundreds of kilometres of range.

[@navsenjoy]

Searching for yr old one on same topic... Keep up good work 👍

[@Zerpentsa6598]

Faradion joins many would-be British firms in trying to break into a new technology area, only to fail miserably, like ICL, EMI, Amstrad, Sinclair, etc. Even ARM is owned now by Japanese. Catl in China had already unveiled a sodium-ion battery. Others are also in the pipeline.

[@foreverknight3448]

UK seems to have said that we are better off being a US Vassal and buying their technology and being a client state then do more innovation. Sad to see.

[@jedics1]

Sodium can be maintained at zero volts? I didnt know that, so it could be discharged to zero with out damage? Pretty big selling point to me considering how expensive and how easily it can happen.

[@silentvoiceinthedark5665]

I clicked on this with glee thinking this was about thorium fuel cycle and the word sodium was regarding molten salt. Not disappointed though we can use better cheaper recyclable batteries. Glad to see India contributing to the advancement of the planet in this area.

[@carnicer78]

Very interesting analysis with lots of information. Excellent work.

[@milantrcka121]

A US company Reliance Electric has been around for many years. Does it have any connection with the Reliance in the presentation? Perhaps this is just a coincidence of the leading word in the name? (I got sensitized to this having witnessed a corporate squabble over names.)

[@arindamghatak]

No connection

[@omsingharjit]

It's indian company

[@helmutzollner5496]

Great flic. Thank you. Very informative overview of the market.

[@Dallen9]

The question mainly would of been is a Sodium Ion battery safer than a Lithium ion battery? I.E. if the battery is pierced will it explode? If the battery over heats does it explode? Does the battery explode? Now if the battery is like a nickel cadmium or Nickel metal hydride battery only more power storage than they offer that would mean these batteries need to be in as many things as possible and though it might make things a little bit bigger would mean they could have more energy storage allowed for devices. Lithium Ion Batteries have at the moment a fixed size they can be due to their explosive early days in the consumer market. So the advantage of a sodium ion battery is the fact they're not limited by size and capacity constraints. So there has to be something missing as to why this isn't being touted to Technology companies cause there's a market for making a uniform equipment. This just looks like smart people in desprate need of a good marketer on their side who knows the technology.

[@markedwards3676]

truly Riveting battery insite -thankyou for producing this interesting program for us!

[@tangodman]

The money you have mentioned is fraction of what Reliance has kept for the greener alternatives. Reliance group is $200 billion conglomerate with all the biggest banks and financial institutions as partners. It has committed $10 billion, quarter of which will go to each of the four technologies. As with everything with reliance, they do at very big scale and transform any sector they enter. They either become the largest or acquire them. No way they would have poured 100 million pound without due diligence. Faradion must have something up their sleeves which they haven't let the public know and which reliance does. Either way, Reliance will make it work by any means as they have to offset their carbon footprint from the oil business.

[@drsjamesserra]

Faradion uses nickel as well which has high scarcity and could make the batteries very expensive.

[@robertkacala]

how about this.?.. The California-based startup NDB has unveiled a battery that uses nuclear waste and lasts up to 28,000 years. The power of the nano-diamond battery comes from radioactive isotopes used in nuclear reactors.

[@firstlast-cs6eg]

Of course a lower energy density batter tech doesn't belong in a EV truck, that such would be a bad idea is so dreadfully obvious, I'd fire who ever wasted money and time even trying. Weight and energy density can become a vicious cycle, You want good range, you put more battery in your Electric Vehicle, but those batteries have weight which decrease range, and eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns. With lower density batteries you reach that point much sooner, and in a truck or semi meant to pull lots of weight, you reach it much sooner, combining the two is a dreadfully bad idea. For now Sodium ion belongs in stationary electricity holding capacity where it's weight after delivery is mostly irrelevant. I could also see some boat usage since water is better at dealing with additional weight than a wheeled land vehicle.

[@stupidburp]

The vast majority of vehicles have a heavy lead acid battery under the hood because they are cheap. Sodium ion can potentially replace these by being cost competitive at scale.

[@firstlast-cs6eg]

@@stupidburp ICE vehicles do, that technology we should be pulling away from anyway. I suppose you could call this a stop gap tech. Though really we should be designing cities to be less car centric in the first place. The problem with EV's is that they are cars.

[@stephenkrus]

Top-Notch Analysis Bro! 💎✨👌

[@bradleydanecook]

I've been waiting for this video, NA+ batteries hopefully will have a meaningful impact for those offgrid / on microgrids.

[@GGnext.crazycro]

Dude! The name is Farad Ion The farad is a unit of capacitance, named after physicist Michael Faraday

[@satmohabir7175]

Reliance New Energy Solar Limited purchased Faradion. So look for use of this battery as energy storage in the solar space.

[@peterzimmerman1114]

Using table salt seems like a good idea. It should be a cheap readily available material.

[@oceanheadted]

Thanks. For this, I was wondering what happened to Aquion

[@wlhgmk]

Any technology that replaces Li batteries for static applications has to be a good thing. The added demand for Li is pushing its price up way beyond what it would otherwise be and making EVs more expensive. Note that the Li in the famous Hornsdale 180mWh battery would be enough for 3000 60kWh EVs. And some economists have stated that for a linear decrease in the price of EVs you increase the market exponentially. The Adoption of EVs is one essential step in pivoting (hate that word) to a non fossil fuel economy. There are a number of candidates that may be possible and all they lack is market share to end up being less expensive than Li batteries. There are liquid metal batteries based on SbCa or AlS technology, a couple of flow or gel batteries based on ZnBr and a range of redox batteries based on V or Fe, plus, of course the up and coming Na batteries. Best of all, each of these types of batteries have some significant advantages to Li batteries. These include longer life, ability to cycle the battery between 0 and 100% with no damage, cheap, easily recyclable elements, multiple sources of the materials, no use of Co or Ni, safety which reduces the reluctance of shipping companies to ship them and on and on it goes.

[@neilwani1178]

Sodium ion will be perfect for electric grid storage. Because they are larger and cannot be used as easily in cars for long range. But they are many times cheaper than lithium ion batteries

[@jakemon4550]

Lithium is actual the third most abundant resource in the universe, source is the periodic table.

[@GururajBN]

Faradion has at last found the correct patron. Reliance Industry is not in the habit of failing what it aims to do.

[@Zerpentsa6598]

Yeah? Can it make toilets? Not just opening up fields for the motions.

[@alchemist7412]

@@Zerpentsa6598 Aren't you Chinese doing that in Thai airports ?

[@TheDennisgrass]

15:30 Sounds similar to Aquion saltwater battery company in the U.S., which went bankrupt in March 2017. Difference now is, new technology associated with Sodium batteries, and non union labor in the manufacturing process.

[@KrotowX]

Energy density provided by sodium ion battery tech at today is not enough for vehicles. However these batteries are already just fine for stationary energy storage.

[@stupidburp]

They have better energy density than lead acid and can potentially compete on cost

[@MrManerd]

Okay so I'm confused, I always thought the old Alkaline batteries WERE Sodium Ion batteries. I always thought the Lithium Ion batteries were an advancement on traditional alkaline batteries that allowed for higher energy density, and the reason they were rechargeable was NOT due to some radical new battery chemistry but instead due to a change in charging technology (I.E. Smart Charging).

[@uspockdad6429]

Alkaline battery chemistry is Zinc and manganese dioxide. Not sodium.

[@MrManerd]

@@uspockdad6429 Hmmm, that doesn't seem right. I once took the white stuff that builds up on old batteries to chem class, and the teacher said it was Sodium Hydroxide. Granted, he didn't test it, he just told me that's what it was.

[@jimurrata6785]

@@MrManerd Lye (sodium hydroxide) is the cheap alkaline electrolyte used in a zinc/manganese battery. It's not the anode or cathode. Battery chemistries are mostly defined by their poles not by the ion transport medium. Lead _acid_ batteries are somewhat of an outlier here, but I'd assume that is because you have lead at both sides of the reaction.

[@mans4104]

Sodium-ion can be used for stationaries uses and lithium-ion for cars motorcycles and bicycles. The silver bullet almost never appears.

[@Muonium1]

Something tells me this is going to be another in a long history of badly managed debacles.

[@pranjalparashar1356]

As are the majority of projects in any developing nation

[@foreverknight3448]

@@pranjalparashar1356 Yea all Chinese and Indian project are bad and terrible?

[@pranjalparashar1356]

@@foreverknight3448 "majority"

[@foreverknight3448]

@@pranjalparashar1356 Typical biase, majority of projects in India and China fail...no numbers,no stats..nothing.

[@orangeofmars2835]

If Na+ is such an advantage over Li+ batteries why does Tesla still go with their 4680 battery which is the newest version of their Li+ battery?

[@SoundzAlive1]

I think Sodium is not going to cut it with energy density and other technologies like Graphene will prevail. André

[@PlanetFrosty]

This was a great topic and I suggest you expand the JIO also coming from Reliant the fiber to the home(FTH) Business which Facebook also invested in as well.

[@tvm73827]

This sounds like India’s bet on Thorium (widely available in the sands of Kerala’s beaches) vs Uranium which was monopolized by the superpowers. Unfortunately for India, that has not worked out, yet. I hope this contrary bet pays off better.

[@kaustubhraizada]

Thorium reactor is working in india , just gov is not interested and it takes more time for thorium reactor to reach its full potential

[@alchemist7412]

Projects fail in India because Indian government meddles in it. The nuclear industry is a monopoly of the government like defence in India. Hence the sectors doesn't get much investments & the government funding are miniscule