INEOS AsiaPac Boss interview - part 3 of 4

#INEOS #INEOSAustralia #Grenadier
Part 3 of an interview with Justin Hocevar, INEOS's AsiaPac boss:
00:00 customer care and communications
07:00 workshop manuals
09:26 methods of communication
11:41 parts availability
16:23 accessory availability
19:42 cargo barrier
22:35 OBD2 scanners
25:05 driving & "work" lights
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[@No-thing-ness]

Great that Justin has provided his time. With parts the issue is also how expensive said parts are

[@Daniel-vl8mx]

That was a really good interview. Thank you to both participants.

[@DrDankoff]

To both gentlemen, brilliant job. Interviewer did not shy from asking the questions, responder did not just feed PR though clearly has good media training where responses are difficult. Honestly, this interview up on Ineos FAQ/WIKI page as suggested would be a plus of a company ready to continue engaging with the kind of clients they are attracting. Looking forward to Gen2 grenadier having just jumped into a Wrangler 4xe Rubicon as my fly-fishing, hunting, and winter storm vehicle. This is so positive that as I am here shopping roof racks for my next Moose hunting trip, I am writing to Bernard Leitner to see if he would allow his brilliant rack to have adapters for crossbars so I can purchase ahead with the grenadier as a definitive final endpoint. Confidence inspiring interview, not the fluff sold to general population and entirely appropriate to the discerning type of clients this brand will likely attract and keep.

[@L2SFBC]

I do feel a INEOS Wiki would be a good idea. Never seen a car company do it though.

[@DavesIneosGrenadier]

Another great session. Once again proving the difference between a journalist and a KZbin content creator. I called the call centre a month ago and got onto a guy called Mark. He couldn't provide an answer but asked if he could call me back in two days time. He called me back in two days which happened to be a Sunday afternoon my time. Still waiting for my rear door table however since taking delivery 7 months ago. Don't think I have actually had a need for it yet.

[@L2SFBC]

Can you expand on the difference between a journalist and content creator please?

[@off-roadingexplained8417]

I have a lot of respect for the guy being interviewed. He seems to understand these things really well. The processes need to improve at lot of software companies. That's at the root of a lot of what's being discussed.

[@AndrewMcDonald]

Creating and managing service manuals is one of the hardest and most under-estimated tasks in any business. Most likely Ineos never staffed this correctly.

[@L2SFBC]

Life has taught me most things look simple at first glance but if you want them done well there are huge complexities not apparent until you understand more. Can you elaborate on this point please?

[@stevegreen101]

​@@L2SFBC Justin's answer was particularly waffly on this. What investment is needed? There's been a CAD IT engineer dedicated to project management this for many years, the system exists, agents and dealers are using it. It has a hierarchy of users, with sensitive data hidden from those with lower level access. These things are standard to anyone who's seen an EDMS (electronic document management system) used in any sort of engineering environment. The real kicker is if you were willing to stump up a significant sum of money, as a third party garage, you could have had access for the last 12 months.

[@paultucker4923]

A very honest interview, well done. As an unentitled boomer I'm happy with how things are going. Fundamentally I'm glad to have stayed alive long enough to see this great vehicle ;

[@L2SFBC]

Glad you enjoyed it! Hope you stay alive long enough to see this reply :-)

[@stevegreen101]

Customers have had pretty straight answers on the 3 issues mentioned? Maybe he's given straight answers to individual customers but that's like the captain having a private conversation with someone in first class and entirely different from communicating to the aeroplane full of passengers

[@pauldavies4650]

Ordered a rear plastic trim. Admittedly, it was an unusual piece to order, but order 6/3/23 arrived 14/5/23. 9 weeks..... re picnic table, had car nearly 9 months. Just advised that the picnic table is available. And still awaiting repairs for ussues since delivery.. Pretty disappointing.. but love the car, and wouldn't change it

[@davidthomas9267]

I called the US contact a year ago to ask some questions and the lady that answered the phone really coudn't speak English, so I thanked her and hung up. I've given up on them and gone on.

[@Pandora882]

SERVICE MANUAL had a grenadier for over a year now fantastic vehicle but we need a service manual.

[@jerrymyahzcat]

Sure you need it but one would hope not much servicing is needed in the first year. It’s a new brand and clearly taking them too long to have them ready however.

[@mini_steve]

What type of customer refuses a vehicle on the basis of a picnic table? Go to Bunnings, BCF, Anaconda, Tentworld and get one. 95% of buyers would most likely already have at least 3-4 camping/picnic tables amongst their gear.

[@L2SFBC]

Nobody. However the picnic table is better termed as a barn-door table, one that folds up and down on the inside of the rear door. That's an INEOS option, and there was, unsurprisingly, a large takeup which caught INEOS by surprise hence the delay. It is not a standalone table independent of the vehicle. There is also this aftermarket option, or many people make their own. You can see a clever version in my Suzuki Jimny custom build video. gp-factor.com/en-au/products/ineos-grenadier-folding-tailgate-table-with-extended-storage-cubby

[@jerrymyahzcat]

The LED light bar at the front of the Grenadier might well be sold as a work like but 99% of people will use is as a driving light so it will need to be made legally compliant. We know they won’t bother doing this so Ineos should just install it as such. I am fed up with wing blinded by Light Bars at night. So many lights now are non-compliant and not policed.

[@L2SFBC]

Agreed!

[@lars9604]

Good to hear the service manual may be avalible by the end of the year. Still I don't know why this issue wasn't solved before delivery. I believe the US parts system is quite different than Austraila. Just check any forum and you'll see the problems with parts availability other than maybe oil and air filters. I've been waiting since mid February for a interior part and the original roof rack is still MIA

[@stevegreen101]

It should have sorted before delivery. All the issues rolled out in the interview to explain the delays are ones you'd sit down and map out prior to announcing to the world that you're going to do this. Indeed, with the expertise of CAD-IT already on board for many years, I'm very surprised to hear them being rolled out now. Somewhere along the programme there's been a decision to halt/pause progress; was that new senior management or pressure from agents/dealers seeing revenue streams being "given" away?

[@adamclater3068]

The online platform is a nice to have - a paper workshop manual, factory service manual is paramount. Not every expedition will have internet access.

[@stevegreen101]

Didn't you listen to him explaining the large volume of engineering changes in the last 12 months? This sort of stuff can't be managed via a paper based system. I'm lucky to have seen the end of a paper system and the beginning of an electronic one. There's no comparison. Any paper manual you want will just be a data dump to pdf and just capture "as is" in an uncontrolled format.

[@adamclater3068]

@@stevegreen101 I don't think the rate of change makes an analogue service manual any less valuable in a disconnected environment. That's why model/year specific manuals have been made in the past.

[@tugdumbly1927]

Manuals. As a Technical Publication Mgr in a previous life. This was always going to be an aspirational wet dream to roll out. Let’s not even talk about upgrades to the manuals. Marketing promises stuff that they have no control over nor responsibility for. I live in western Sydney and any dealer is 2hrs away at least. When will the dealer/agent/service network improve?

[@L2SFBC]

As I wrote to another commenter, everything is complex when you get into detail. Can you elaborate on the challenges please?

[@tugdumbly1927]

@@L2SFBC it’s about version control of the actual manual. The last thing you want is people following manuals that are wrong. Maintaining the master version of the manual is relatively simple and Ineos can do that internally. The real drama is making sure the external holders of the manual have the correct version of the manual. So you need to stand up an entire administration system to track that. Obviously there’s hundreds of ways to do that and you could expect hundreds of copies of a manual to be all over the place in different countries, states etc. Then rollout petrol/hydrogen/ diesel version of engine, then dual cab/ute/2 seat/3seat/5seat etc and it gets very untidy very quickly. Imagine you follow version 2 guidance for a service but the current version is number 4. Engine blows up. Warranty job? Do you endorse all service work receipts etc with manual vers number? Without a robust technical manual mgt system it’s hard, nigh impossible, to ensure consistency etc. dismissing the what if’s/magnitude of the problem won’t deal with it when it happens. Remember everyone will step back and blame someone else when it lets go. Service will need to be done by people who have 3 specific skills. They are current on the vehicle maintenance requirements, they are competent on the task and they are qualified. The local halfwit following an outdated manual for the wrong vehicle because he doesn’t have the right one is what you need to avoid. Ultimately what will happen if this is not managed correctly is publicly available owners service manuals will become so anodyne and nebulous that they are effectively useless. Which means folks will do what they think they should do rather than what they must do. Consider this question, based on the interview with the Asia pacific mgr. They’ve sold 1300 vehicles so far. But are yet to roll out a service manual to any owners. Let’s assume all of them are the same model and type. How do you guarantee that each of those 1300 can keep their manual current? When the local mechanic does the service and is given the service manual and follows superseded guidance who wears the hurt? The best solution to this issue is to make publicly available service manuals is to make them so anodyne and nebulous that they are almost useless and I have a sneaking suspicion that is what will be rolled out. Maybe another reason why there’s been no large scale fleet take up as yet as the mgr indicated ? Ultimately it’s through life management that determines brand value and reputation etc. all of these vehicles are still relatively low kms. What happens when it’s got 300k on it it’s 10yo and maintenance has been “suboptimal” due to inconsistent manuals? Blown turbos, heads, cylinders anyone?

[@tugdumbly1927]

Enough detail abt manual mgt?

[@tugdumbly1927]

I forgot to mention that as Ineos is a plug n play platform ie BMW engines, Bosch steering boxes and other stuff. So Ineos isn’t the technical engineering authority for the components and relies on those companies to do that. So Ineos pulling together a coherent manual relies on pulling the component manufacturers together. It’s like herding cats. Or try to collect mist with a net. This is not the case with most other brands who invest in developing their own parts and full engineering systems. Ultimately it’s a trade off because part of the original schtick for the product was using the best parts from the best manufacturers to develop the best off road vehicle.

[@L2SFBC]

Brilliant thank you, I might make a blog post out of all that! Having written docs myself I'm aware of the version issue. I think the challenges can be summarised as: - version control - liability - IP management across third parties - expertise level of audience - cost I rather suspect this started out as a good idea before anyone realised how complex it is. Probably Sir Jim's idea, and nobody told him no. I would have done, and also challenged his AWD/live axles/robustness direction, but that's why I'm a journalist not an engineering boss :-)

[@StevenG-xv5gq]

Communication is the number one problem am starting to lose faith in INEOS

[@L2SFBC]

Why so?

[@jerrymyahzcat]

@@L2SFBCinterestingly you asked him about the communication issues and he never answered it. He just kept saying parts availability isn’t an issue. He avoided answering why they don’t keep customers in the loop. A customer will take quite a lot of delay and even run around if kept informed throughout the process.

[@L2SFBC]

Exactly thar was my point re comms.

[@StevenG-xv5gq]

I have had my deposit now for two and a half years. I was told delivery was fourth quarter of 2023 as so planned a six week adventure through Labrador Quebec and Newfoundland for late May 2024. I was then told it would be first quarter of 2024. As April came I reached out to my dealer for a confirmation of delivery for trip planning I was told they had no idea on delivery as Ineos was not replying to there requests. I am now leaving on my six week adventure in a Honda Ridgeline on May 22 and my new Grenadier I am told will now arrive possibly on May 28. Not a happy camper.

[@jafuk]

I find the 1st line helpdesk are given no powers or info and they mainly nowadays refer you to your local agent, who's in the dark as much as we are