Infinity Faction Tier List - 2023 Edition

[@TheFezmond]

As someone rather new to infinity I really appreciate this. A long vid like that with all the time stamps, thank you very much.

[@RatWithaTool]

3 hours of Robert talking about Infinity? Yes please. On a more serious note, fantastic video that, if anything, shows a great rundown of faction strengths and weaknesses... and how to exploit both. And I really appreciate your levelheadedness, nothing is downright OP, everything has something that can be considered a soft spot. It just hurts my soul to see FRRM so low, as they are one of my favorite sectorials. Hope Endsong brings some much needed buffs.

[@orbitaloperations]

It's interesting to see tierlist from other metas. Here in spain is a consensus that MO is the best pan0 faction by a substantial margin. Caledonia, is considered like E tier with Merovingia.

[@Behindthejab]

MO was my first faction, it’s just too limited but fun

[@Kittenmarines]

I actually played into Brunix's first ForCo list at adepticon. He split the linkable troops into two three-man teams (with Hannibal, Massacre, and Laxmee as his forward team), but he noted that link flexibility was an intentional part of the list. The second list was made specifically with Countermeasures in mind. As a side note, this guy was an incredible player and probably the most fun game I had all weekend. We talked throughout the event after our game and he's just a really lovely dude.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Sometimes you can tell just from a list that a player has an incredible grasp on the game, and it sounds like Brunix is one of those folks :)

[@Nethezbet]

"I swore I would never do" until you realize it gets a metric shit ton of clicks LOL. Not a judgment, it just is what it is. Much excite!

[@user-bm3ts2ql6s]

the amount of stuff in a and b tells me as a new player that the game is well balanced... not having an s tier is healthy

[@Yellow_Strawberry7]

I've had some great success with 2M dron + HRL Gwilo in one group with like two Ikadrons and an r drone. The other group is 4 linked nox hackers + non link sheskin + skirmishers/specialists of choice. So i feel like there is some other strengths there besides the usual shas gimmicks. Great vid as always, much love

[@cspo]

"Jordan from Geelong, Bad Takes Alone" could be a series in itself.

[@Nice_Things]

If this wasn’t true, I’d be offended. 😂😂

[@MrNunkeymutts]

Fantastic vid. Thanks for taking the time to put this up. Really useful to a relative newb.

[@corbeaubm]

This is fascinating to watch given that I haven't played in almost a decade. Looking at the army builder, the MO that I used to play (near knight-less) doesn't even exist anymore.

[@rajpreetdhillon8084]

Great video. I was surprised you didn't discuss the very nice duo options available for pan0. I think their duos are the most effective across all vanilla lists and one of their main strengths.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Definitely - but I think I have an entire separate video on that :)

[@brianjones5136]

This was a fun listen; thanks for taking the time to do it again! As a Shas player I must now know if the subsequent minelayer nerf take us out of the smelly Tohaa zone!? (Maybe it isn’t a nerf after all then..) 🤣

[@R0bertShepherd]

I don't *think* so, no. It's a little bit of a blow to the minelayer speculo, for sure, but the correct number of them before was usually only one at most anyway, because of how good the shotgun speculo is.

[@brianjones5136]

Largely agree; the blow feels worse than it probably is in actuality.

[@alexweber675]

Great video, I love hearing you talk through everything. I think you slept on a tool IA has to destroy hackers: the Liu Xing. Also, when it comes to linked missiles, the Yanhuo missile +1b can link with a Haidao MSV sniper and a missile bot. 3 missiles on active, 2 on aro. :)

[@R0bertShepherd]

I've used the Liu Xing a number of times and in my experience being BTS3 heavy infantry is not a great quality against a hacker. Sometimes you have the opportunity to try for a land directly on the hacker which generally nets you a single low-damage hit in exchange for getting IMM while standing upright in the enemy DZ, but more often your opponent has passable fields of overlapping fire you're forced to land somewhere outside LOF and try to approach on foot, at which point... you get IMM in the enemy DZ. I like Liu Xing, but trying to close in on a hacker is their definition of a bad time.

[@Derpy-qg9hn]

On Cameronian AVA fuckery: If you take three Cameronians in Caledonia, Army throws no error. If you take a Cam and two Dog-Warriors in Ariadna, it throws an error about their shared AVA. I suspect the "only two werewolves" clause only applies to Ariadna, and is left in Caledonia only as an oversight.

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

This is correct, it's a data error caused from copying profiles from Vanilla rather than creating completely new profiles for sectorials

[@tomekhekin914]

I am after my first game in Code One so I didn't understand 80% of what you sad but still, it was enjoyable to watch. Hope in the next year I will understand much more. Thx

[@janofe2232]

Looks like Berserk can be used in a fireteam :-) Yes. Only the Troops with Berserk will perform the Skill, the rest will perform an Idle and the Team Leader will be the only one performing the CC Attack. Related Pages: Berserk, Fireteams in the Active Turn

[@gophermanX]

Now if only tankos actually had berserk lol

[@festmkiv]

Good call on Defersen in Military orders - that got me 7th at Novacore, would have been 4th if I didn't fuck the scoring on the last game. Plus the teutonic asshole of course (Teuton Missile launcher in the core). No love for the AP HMG Tikbalang though? Excellent call on TAK - if you know them they're easy to play against. The mid line camo markers are easy to face check.

[@Ravanstrike2009]

Always interesting to hear your thoughts on the current state of the game. I would love to see more information on vanilla nomads. I feel like they often get talked about a lot, but no one ever really breaks down the vanilla playstyle and hoe it differs from sectionals. Cause this edition seems so focused on sectorals

[@R0bertShepherd]

So we touch on this briefly in the video but the list construction of vanilla nomads focused on the fact that they have just about every capability baked into their faction in some respect. You'll usually have one big gun (often a TAG; Gator and Szalamandra are both excellent), Morans for midfield repeaters, remotes for deployment zone repeatrs, 1-2 very high quality hackers (Jazz is the most cost effective, Zoe and Interventors are the other high watermark choices), a guided missile remote, one or two ways to get pitchers to your opponent's deployment zone, a libertos in the midfield and some warbands in the form of morlocks and/or uberfalkommando. This produces a faction with a *lot* going on, especially in the hacking and missile space, but otherwise often only one of any given thing, so losing one or two models can unpick large parts of the army. While they're operating at full effectiveness, though, you can expect an army with big guns, big hacking, camo, smoke, close combat, the works.

[@kylepietsch504]

With regard to the monk haris in White Banner, Jing Qo is a big deal because she brings a gun. 2 monks can do almost anything Liang Kai can do, but they can't gunfight. Burst 4 BS 13 with mimetism -3 isn't amazing, but it's still good enough. It was definitely a sectorial where I would never run it over vanilla, right up until that team became an option. You also made an interesting point about camo models in general when discussing TAK. Going back to WB, the worst spot you can put a Long Ya in is when you just walk a good HMG up the board and force me to decide between revealing to take a bad fight and just letting you walk up the board.

[@Nethezbet]

Since you asked... I did win a game when an MO player thought his Tik would walk over me, and got a Metro panzer crit to his face (on a 4, lol). I demand the French get moved to "C" tier!

[@ryandugan9176]

That was a great listen.

[@vidalpagan1494]

It would be great if CB sat down and update troops profiles/skills/weapons and not just costs. With updates to the rule book as well, based on the most recent FAQ.

[@demrandom]

they occasionally do, like andromeda getting an Infiltrate profile despite not getting a new model release. It's rare, though. they mostly play around with the ITS changes to underused troop types to possibly turn permanent like the recent bike change. The wiki gets updated with the most recent FAQ/errata pretty often.

[@ruisilva1220]

Great video. Thank you! Although I have a coccotion of mixed feelings because I'm a PanO player, and mainly a Military Orders one. But I do agree with you on the main issue of MO being the lack of Cheap utility fillers and the main strength being the star profiles (some of which are MO exclusive). Any chance to link that list of 2 HMG Kamau + HRL Kamau + ORC Feuerbach?

[@R0bertShepherd]

That list was probably written before some game updates, but if I was going to play absolute maximum gun Varuna now it would be something like this: aQZ2YXJ1bmEBIIEsAgEBAAoABQENAAABAQkAAAEBCgAAAQEBAAAwAQUAAAEBCQAAhMkBAQAAMAECAACGcwEBAAATAQEAAgEABQAwAQIAAIOnAQIAAITGAQUAAITGAQUAABMBAQA%3D However if you were comfortable playing without the Squalos, you can make both Helots into HRL helots and suddenly have a *lot* of points spare - enough for things like Zulu Cobras or bikers.

[@ruisilva1220]

​@@R0bertShepherd thank you! Guess I'm going to give this list a go. But I'm definitly upgrading those Helot into LRL and fiting a Zulu-Cobra or two after a few games with your list.

[@finlayrobertson1355]

This was super interesting, thanks for making this video. As an aside I really haven't played infinity in quite some time because I only have Druze and have fallen out of love with them majorly, I'm also a professional painter which has put me off starting another faction but do you have a suggestion for a list I could get that would be minimum models but not shit like Druze?

[@R0bertShepherd]

Infinity has a very permissive proxy culture, so you could almost take your pick of any faction with a mix of medium to light infantry. With a bit of conversion work I'd be tempted to suggest something like Shock Army who run a solid infantry mix, although ideally you'll want Scarface to proxy proxy Dragao. :)

[@obyiscushobbyandgaming]

What about Crosiers makes them much worse than fusiliers? Is it the 1pt cost difference, or lack of missile (only and MSR) and hacker? Also you seemed to forget that MO has one of the best TAGs in the game, the Tikbalang with Ap HMG.

[@R0bertShepherd]

We mention the Montessa Tikbalang a few times, but elsewhere in the video. So the challenge crosiers have is partly the 1pt extra cost (which adds up across multiple units, especially when you also have the same price hike on curators and order sergeants, which can end up being something like 7-10pts out of your army in some cases), it's also the lack of profiles like Lt and Hacker. The missile launcher you can live without (although the MSR, while good, is again more expensive) but if you want to put a lieutenant in a crosier link you're looking at a knight commander, which is *real* bloody pricy for what you get. Once you put all the little price hikes and having to take slightly more premium stuff as the cheapest units in your list, in a faction whose reason for being is to field sweet heavy stuff, it starts to buckle a little. I do increasingly like De Fersen as a solution to some of these issues, but despite what he brings, he's super pricy too and has a target on his head, which is it's own issue.

[@krobiekong4326]

Thank you taking the time to share your thoughts and experiences. I liked your stance that there are no S tiers right now and most armies are viable for tournament play. I was surprised with the ratings of Caledonia, USAriadna, MO, and Onyx. I do think Caledonia has some good strengths, but I was shocked to see them so high. For USAriadna, why do you rate Devil Dogs so highly? I always felt they were the weakest Dog Soldiers. USAriadna also have the weakest camo game of Ariadna, so I also felt they were limited in tricks. I do agree that MO has issues with a hacking net, but I thought they were closer to NCA in rating due to the power of Teutons, Trinitarians, Dart, and Montessas. For Onxy, Unidron Batroid links feel strong with a lot of CA good stuff, so it was surprising to see you rate them so low. I appreciate all you do to promote discussion and thought about the wonderful game on Infinity!

[@R0bertShepherd]

On the topic of Dog Warriors, I used to also think Devil Dogs were among the weakest, until I put some time into playing them. I don't think I can over-emphasise how useful that synchronised antipode is, not just for the utility (second model, sensor etc) but because it makes the Devil Dog more dangerous than both Dog Warriors and Cameronians in CC, and in some cases more dangerous than a Bearpode or even McMurrough, because of how they give you a chooseable pseudo-berserk or the advantage of stacking burst with 23 CC. Playing them actually convinced me to run them in vanilla over bearpodes sometimes.

[@zephyrrrr4813]

Military orders is the body builder with no leg muscles at all is the realisation I have come to

[@R0bertShepherd]

10/10 summary

[@ChampionofTerra]

Hello, new to Infinity and decided to start winter for, where can I find more about how theie lists are built? Because I loved the idea of gunnar and liang kai in the lists)

[@R0bertShepherd]

If you jump into the Infinity Army app or website and play around, you'll probably find things coming together. I'm happy to suggest a starting point if you like though.

[@ChampionofTerra]

@@R0bertShepherd thah would be awesome 🙂 I already made a list and could share it with you)

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@ChampionofTerra post the list code here and I can take a look :)

[@ChampionofTerra]

@@R0bertShepherd I will e honest, I had 0 idea what I was doing. Just tried to use the models I like, and to keep track of points and cwc

[@zephyrrrr4813]

If crozziers had a hacker profile and mo had another fusilier theyd be insane

[@MittenNinj4]

Also, you did StarCo dirty 😅. They're so good.

[@ai_Wintermute]

Started with WBA and its still my most played faction by far. While i still would rate Vanilla higher, its really good right now. Between the Monk Links, FO Bots and Long Yas, you have enough Points to run a really nice HI Link if you dont run a TAG. Something like AP Shanger, Bixie and ML Jujak. Or HRL ShangJi, Tian Gao, Lei Gong or whatever the Mission needs. Or screw that and get your Daofei Hacker and Guilangs on the board

[@MittenNinj4]

I can't help but think you guys are missing some phenomenal units for YJ and their sectorials when you talk about their lacking options. I realize there wasnt time to go over all of their options, but most (if not all) of the issues you did mention are available with other units. Daofei, Liu Xing/Tigers, Hsien cover a lot of the holes you brought up.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I've played a lot of Yu Jing and all of those pieces - while ok - feel like really strong examples of exactly the way Yu Jing needs to compromise in order to play missions. The Hsien is a great example - getting it to be a generic, never-get-a-bonus specialist (although WIP14, which is nice) means downgrading it from a 55pt MSV2 HMG to a 50pt multi rifle. I like me some multi rifles, but not on platforms that expensive and that relatively fragile (compare for example the cost to resilience of a Hsien vs a Mowang). Daofei are similar. Just colossally expensive in a way that the more pure of purpose Yu Jing pieces aren't. I don't think this comparison is perfectly fair because the units operate in different roles, but a Daofei hacker is a whopping 6pts more expensive than my preferred Su Jian profile. Taking it means making cuts somewhere. And that's the whole thing about Yu Jing, for me. If you never have to compromise, you can fill your list with the cream of their 'this feels almost unfairly dangerous', outperforming assault pieces. The more you have to deviate away from that, the more you stray back into the realms of the fine, the ok, the "pretty good I guess", which is absolutely good enough to win games, but results in a pretty variable performance. Hence, their position in the Tohaa Zone (results may vary).

[@MittenNinj4]

@@R0bertShepherd the Hsien I was more referring to the "ISS doesn't have good guns" comment. A B5 BS14 MSV2 HMG is great. I think YJs versatile specialists are actually one of its greatest strengths. When you compare them to other factions, they can gunfight a lot better and are still very efficient specialists. I do agree that you have to give up the "big guns" for some specialists, but the combat jumpers and the Daofei don't really take as much of a hit on that because of their ability to get into closer range easily.

[@danielallott]

1:14:14 "Whats a ligma kinda effect" 😂

[@Firefly1-1]

I think these guys look emphasize the value of TAG inclusion a bit much, but v good convo!

[@HeyitsMartyn]

You might have to update this list briefly with the recent changes. More than anything I want to see how starmada and Tunguska/Bakunin hold up comparatively.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Wheels are in motion.

[@HeyitsMartyn]

@@R0bertShepherd marvelous

[@AquilaGuard]

I feel like you guys underestimated MO Crosiers. They cost only 11 points, thats just 1 more point than Fusiliers and you can take a multi-sniper. Replacing Crosiers with Fusiliers isnt going to change the faction much. Their biggest weaknesses are their lack of orders and redundant HI options.

[@cspo]

also I love that you have rubrics.

[@robertsmall8919]

I am looking at doing startmada again. I also need to get to Winterfor later.

[@MG-ix6cq]

Great video. Tier list is always fun. Working my way through now. So far dont agree on MO being C and worse than Vanilla 012. You mentioned Tag and seraph. You jumped over that MO has one of the best TAGs in the game the AP Tikbalang. They should be same tier as Vanilla O12.

[@AlitarS]

I was also surprised the focus on the Seraph instead of the AP HMG Tik which is very scary. I can agree on the issues with orders on MO though.

[@R0bertShepherd]

I definitely disagree with that. We cover this a few other times in the video, but it's not the good pieces in Military Orders that make the faction challenging to play; it's the humble meat and potatoes pieces. You can take an MO list with a Montessa Tikbalang and Tuetons and some Trinitarians etc and those pieces are excellent, but the force is perishingly difficult to actually round out into a complete list from there. I'm not sure when during the video we mention it, but the basic line is: if the Pope canonised enough Fugazi to make them AVA3, Military Orders would immediately shoot up hugely in our estimation.

[@festmkiv]

@@R0bertShepherd They were my first faction and it really feels like you're always playing an order or two down. Great profiles but they don't combine well enough into a cohesive whole... so it's fine if you have a great first turn, or your enemy walks into your hard ARO for 3-4 orders on their first turn.... but they don't have a lot of capacity to recover from a setback or if they get locked out of good shooting ranges. Still love em though

[@MG-ix6cq]

@@R0bertShepherd Shure. But you can do 1 fugazi and 2 mulebots.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@MG-ix6cq you can, but that's much worse than three fugazi, which can defend themselves and are enormously easier to either safely or usefully deploy.

[@AquilaGuard]

I also think you guys overstate the 1 wound weakness of White company. Its not much different than Svalarheima which can also run into 1 wound problem if you just take the best units. People underestimate the value of basic HI like Jujaks (2 wounds with heavy flamers is quite good). Winter Force has hospitallers and white company has Jujaks. I do think they are key parts of the faction that are easily overlooked by flash untis like Karhu.

[@LoboInfinity]

Your partner is correct, Kosmoflot is better than vanilla Ariadna. In my humble opinion, of course.

[@EAfirstlast]

:P People who play an army tend to rank it lower so they can self justify it either not getting nerfed or it getting buffed

[@R0bertShepherd]

I mean, I play tohaa and combined, so....

[@maximus0928]

How do you know what units can be apart of a vanilla version of a faction or is it just a pick and choose from whatever sectorial?

[@R0bertShepherd]

'Vanilla' armies are their own unique armies in the army app, and that will tell you all the troops they have access to. It's usually almost all the troops in their component sectorials plus some mercenaries, but a lot of sectorial-unique profiles exist.

[@artvandelay8830]

Some symbols changed. Steel Phalanx, for example.

[@TexasFriedCriminal]

What is it with Remotes with TacAware?

[@R0bertShepherd]

In the current Infinity Season (ITS Season 14), Forward Observer remotes like Stempler Zonds and Pathfinders get a bunch of free bonuses (tactical awareness, marskmanship and ECM hacker -3). They'll probably go away at the end of the season or be rolled into some profiles at a moderate cost, but for now those pieces are incredibly useful.

[@Toasty1231]

The mental Gymnastics to NOT place combined army in S tier and just leave S Tier blank is frankly hilarious

[@R0bertShepherd]

Mostly it's a matter of experience and comparison. I played a lot of combined army when they were strongest during N4, and genuinely felt carried through a few events. The changes have trimmed them down juuuust enough that, while I think they're still the strongest faction in the game (and ranked them as such), I don't think they can just muscle their way through an event easily enough to be ranked an S any more. If we'd broken the tiers down to A+/A/A-, they'd be an easy A+

[@Toasty1231]

@@R0bertShepherd im being Hyperbolic of course. CA is definitely worse than they used to be. I guess I think theyre still S tier. I still think the avatar can carry a new player

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@Toasty1231 Jordan definitely made that case too and I think it's a fair one, but I had control of the mouse so he was overruled. :P

[@demrandom]

in my experience, CA is not an army to dread. An army to take seriously, sure, but even against experienced players I don't feel like there are massive problems, they'll have to take enough of my threats very seriously. But what do i know i only play mid A tiers according to the graph.

[@supachigga]

I think the Yu Jing timestamp should be closer to 39:24

[@R0bertShepherd]

Good catch - I'll change it :)

[@Space_Ranger]

ISS suffers from not having tools to do the missions. If Sophie goes down, you are screwed. Very few D-charges or DACCW. IA is a hackers wet dream even with tinbots. WB and IA have very little variety with the teams too.

[@robertsmall8919]

I am looking for non-aggregated placement data for factions from tournament, do you have any place you have a good place to find it?

[@R0bertShepherd]

Non-aggregated? Maybe IGL maintain that information for their events.

[@robertsmall8919]

@@R0bertShepherd not from what I saw but I will look again. Thanks

[@robertsmall8919]

@@R0bertShepherd Or is the question mark about what I mean by Non Aggregated. Put simply I am looking for a placement list of 1-n (where n is the number of players). Example: 1 CA 2 Aleph 3 CA 4 Pan O I want that over something like CA won 45% of the matches it fought in during ______ tournament.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@robertsmall8919 you might be able to scrape that data from OBS theoretically (I think others have done so in the past), but it's outside the skills of my technical expertise.

[@robertsmall8919]

​@@R0bertShepherd What is the OBS? Currently I am going to the tournament browser for ITS and going through each tournament using the faction symbols next to the name as the faction they played in that tournament, hopefully that is correct for them at that time. I will say that methodology is a pain.

[@wolpertinger4527]

USAriadna in C is a hot take my friend ignoring Marauders and Mavericks. The big weakness of USAriadna is no real good midfield defense but we have good but fragile shooting.

[@filiusexmachina4069]

Hard fact: vanilla combined is mid a because everyone who played against it before knows what to expect. Noob stomper extraordinaire, but not as flexible as vanilla haqq&nomads

[@philknecht3598]

It dawned on me that if I’m gonna be a fan of this game, I’m going to have to learn to live with the Australian holocaust of the letter R.

[@R0bertShepherd]

Our accent is truly a nightmare amalgam. Mine especially.

[@frankwashburn6680]

You say “this is the way to play Shas, with no links” and then describe the weaknesses/ failure states that having Shas links would’ve ablated Assuming your DZs aren’t shite the Nox core is incredible at resisting close ranged alpha strikes and even dissuading bears thanks to Aida while getting an easy BS14 B5 HMG or pure core guided ML while you fully leverage Shas rule for point scoring missions

[@frankwashburn6680]

like, the Gwailos MSV2 albedo HRL with Victor and an M drone has completely nullified castle defenses against White company and Riot girl links. Speculos and all camo can just faff against Tohaa

[@R0bertShepherd]

While I will die on the hill of the Gwalio, that's a good point about the more modern pure nox cores. Something like a TDrone, Aida, 2x Hackers and a HMG (possibly but not certainly supported by a doc worm or caliban drone) clocks in at 86pts and 3.5 SWC before the support and is *probably* doing enough with each of those troop slots to justify its existence. Thanks to Aida especially there's no one piece that trivially punches into that - every effective attack I can think of on the quick is at least two phases just to unpick the different layers if you arent willing to risk a spicy mine dodge. And even a libertos hitting the link will get zappered on the first kill, which for most factions would be bad but for Shasvstii can represent a home-delivered snack. Very nice :)

[@frankwashburn6680]

@@R0bertShepherd after all, you guys noted that the Zhaeydan ML can single-handedly win games.. if you get first turn as Shas, for the low low price of an E drone you can get that BS18 in good range band burst 2 ML, with guided.

[@R0bertShepherd]

@@frankwashburn6680 that's a comparison I'm cautious about making. The E-Drone in combination with the T-Drone clocks in at a net 7pts more expensive than the Zhayedan and uses up a precious, precious combat group slot. (That said, I am toying around with a list with an E-Drone in it, but I don't expect to actually hand out Marksmanship to the T-Drone often - or at all. I have other degenerate things I need it to do.)

[@zephyrrrr4813]

Also rob anyone will lose to getting crit by a riot grrl thrice

[@tompollack136]

I’m a dedicated pano player, and it makes me sad that the best faction is the OOP army that’s never going to get an update. Ugh pano needs a new tool or 2, tags only take you so far, sorry Jotum. And the Tik is not as good as everyone thinks, and the uhlan slaps

[@snarkymcsnarkface1863]

Cries in tohaa

[@zephyrrrr4813]

I feel like hippolyta brings 012 just over the edge ahes insane. Also liang kai slaps. As is the alpha

[@Level30Commoner]

I must say that I have to strongly disagree with you. The blatant OPness of CA made me quit the game after more then five years and dozens of tournaments with regular top3 placements. The nerfs were simply not enough and I'm really happy to have quit. A bit less way too good is still way too good.

[@ariwch]

Massive LOL If you are the beginner in Infinity just ignore this "tier list". Otherwise join the laugh :)

[@DaboarderTTG]

Prime dunning Kruger example right here