Intel Arrow Lake is Dead on Arrival (For Now)

[@Tautolonaut]

Nice to see Tim visiting Monitor Steve in person. I hope Full-Roaming Steve doesn't get lonely in the meantime.

[@Wirenfeldt1990]

I completely forgot about Monitor Steve!..

[@nicovega1831]

the response times in this Q&A are pretty good

[@Ariane-Bouchard]

One thing I think you guys do better than GN is graphs. Yours are so much more readable.

[@youtubevanced4900]

That’s because they do frame time graphs which just look terrible.

[@Ariane-Bouchard]

@youtubevanced4900 oh no I meant the framerate graphs. They don't overlay averages and lows over each other anymore, which makes the bars tiny and hard to compare because every bar that's relevant to compare is separated by two unrelated bars vertically speaking. Also the bars are super thin.

[@youtubevanced4900]

@ I’d have to go and look. I listen to their conclusions but I don’t watch the graphs much anymore. I’m definitely on board with you. I find their reviews get bogged down too much for me. Their videos could really use a new editor. Cut the run time down to quarter of their current run length.

[@Ariane-Bouchard]

@@youtubevanced4900 Eh. Then they wouldn't be GN reviews anymore. Their signature is very in-depth reviews. But time stamps are there for people who want less. And tbh their intros and conclusions usually do a good job of giving you the essentials. I don't feel like that needs to change.

[@Marrrrtin]

HUB may have a cleaner design to their graphs, but I actually really like how GN highlights the parts in the graphs as Steve talks through the results.

[@FormerHumanX]

Steve is on the left and Tim is on the right? This changes everything.

[@youtubevanced4900]

No they are on the same side as usual, it’s just been flipped in post.

[@janchovanec8624]

Wrong, they are both upside down!

[@ChengsHardware]

Come on Intel！How am I going to get affordable AMD CPUs if you continue to suck like this 😅

[@Trisstan20]

is this how AMD GPU section is treated normally? 😅 get us something better so we can buy more affordable geforce?

[@Audiosan79]

@@Trisstan20 Acctualy, yes. That is how it works. Altho, i stick with AMD GPU's and AMD CPU's.

[@Frigobar_Ranamelonico]

@@Trisstan20 But we need to say that in the GPU market, thanks to software differences, the gap is more marked. In the CPU market, the one who gives more performance ultimately wins, basically

[@farhanrejwan]

@@Trisstan20 OP talked about CPU, not GPU.

[@danieloberhofer9035]

​@@Frigobar_Ranamelonico Edit: Ignore the following. I misread the quoted post. My bad. "[...] the one who gives more power ultimately wins, basically." Proven wrong for generations now.

[@drahkas8526]

Your negative motherboard VRM videos were still fairly useful to me while troubleshooting my -edit- ASRock z490 pro4 -edit- board. I initially thought something was wrong with my processor or cooler when it kept throttling hard while running stability benchmarks. Then I watched your roundup video and learned that the VRM was severely overheating. I never even thought to look at that. 👍

[@HanSolo__]

If you have ASRock PRO RS, even A620M, and chips like Ryzen 5 and 7, like a 7600X or 7700X you should not have any thermal throttling. The same thing with the 7800X3D. Some people tested 7900X with A620M PRO RS - no problem. Some had more heat but no thermal throttling (TechYEScity). If it's 9900X - even less so. VRM in A620M has a nice heatsink. I had no such problems with PRO RS in B650 is even more robust. There are three bad A620 MoBos but not A620M PRO RS. It has a better VRM set than the cheapest B650 MoBos. The ASRock PRO RS B650 has a 14+2+1 VRM design which is 3x as much as some Gigabyte boards. Don't know what you put up together but Ryzen 9 7950X 170W tops are not CPUs to pair with an A620M motherboard. Or any cheapest stuff whatsoever.

[@drahkas8526]

@@HanSolo__ Sorry! I messed up. I had the ASRock z490 pro4 for my 10700k. It would VRM throttle constantly. I do have a PRO RS for my 7800X3D now and typo'd that one in there. No problems at all with the pro rs.

[@HanSolo__]

@@drahkas8526 Okay, so you are free from a potential RMA process. 🤓I must admit that I witnessed 2 top examples of fast, customer-friendly, and professional resolving by ASRock. It wasn't such a smooth experience in the past. I had only one case, maybe 10 years ago, an unnecessarily long and tedious case but with a happy ending. Those two solved RMAs involved two RX 7900 XTX, a pricey component. However, the decision and (the fastest available) delivery of replacement (new) cards took 2 and 3 days, respectively. I wonder how it looks in other places. Have you seen B650 LiveMixer? Red, orange, white and black. It looks insane. On the other hand B650/X870 Steel Legend, or a good value X870 by MSI. Do you happen to have some knowledge about these MoBos?

[@aiziril]

I'd love to watch a livestream PC build by you guys, but can you make sure it uses a 5800X3D?

[@martinsvilands7334]

As outlined by others before , the real issue even if the CPUs were on parity performance, is that this is new socket so it's not just your cpu you're changing out.

[@alexanderbelov6892]

Benchmarks use 1080 resolution to show the worst case for CPUs. But some games reach 650-800 FPS when CPU performance does not play any role in user experience. Would be nice for reviewer to exclude games were all new CPUs provide 240+ FPS. Such titles shall be considered as Prince of Persia in 2024, when CPUs are just enough.

[@Torashin1]

As a Brit I find it staggering that your cities are so far apart that your measure of distance is in hours of flight 🤯 England must seem like one giant megacity by comparison!

[@nikkorocksalot5254]

As an American it seems like our Northeast is similar to Britain, large cities an hour or two of driving apart But from Chicago to Seattle is nearly 4 hours, another 2.5 from NYC to Seattle I mostly go from Chicago to Dallas Texas and it's about 2.5 hours It's beautiful and varied, but hard to drive lol

[@MightyCats2011]

Only Melb to Syd, or (Melb to Ade) is moderately close with 10 hour drive. Other cities are very long drives or flights.

[@youtubevanced4900]

The cities in between will have to grow to big cities soon enough if they keep letting people immigrate here at the rates they are. Melbourne and Sydney are bursting at the seams because the foreigners won’t go anywhere else.

[@jonathanhayhurst3928]

As a west coast American, England felt like just 1 state out of our 50.

[@DragonOfTheMortalKombat]

Nowhow realize how small your little island is.

[@hyperturbotechnomike]

I'm not an intel fan or an AMD fan, but i think that Windows 11 is partially to blame for the inconsitency. I'm currently evaluating Windows 11 Enterprise LTSC 24H2 for our family business and also private PCs and i didn't have so many headaches since Windows Vista. We have all sorts of PCs at home, intel and AMD, both consumer and professional/server. Even in this small scale, we had some bluescreens with cryptic error messages. LTSC is desiigned to be the more stable release, laughable. Thankfully, we onlyinstalled it on testing SSD's and left our main Windows 10 LTSC installations, which we will continue to use. It's just a poorly made operating system.

[@iankovac1878]

I am going back to 10. I hate 11, tried to make it work for a year, but it is so bloated and slow. Always doing random backround crap. I HATE IT!

[@tomunterwegs1206]

Updated the revently build pc of my mom to 24H2 and it couldn't boot up anymore. Tried all the typical stuff, couldn't even start the selfrepair. Then I read that intel CPUs have a problem when the iGPU is active. My moms pc is an amd build but I also deactivated the iGPU in bios... it booted up just fine. It just can't be just intels or amds fault at some point...

[@hyperturbotechnomike]

@@tomunterwegs1206 I'm sure Microslop replaced their QC department with ChatGPT to save 0,003% of their annual spendings. They have no standards. All of their products stink nowadays. I have been an Xbox and Halo fan in the past. "bro fell off 0 good games in four years of new generation" as the people say nowadays, i guess. And the people from bethesda are just in another universe. //typo

[@JahonCross]

Finally, we are getting in-person meets up❤😊

[@Lazarosaliths]

I upgrade every 6-7 years. I don't care that much about the yearly releases of hundreds products, but i watch all of your videos. I do it for your personality, you are great, 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

[@InfiniteDarkMass]

Gotta break it to you, guys, I'm totally watching this for the personality. I'm curious about tech too, but there's no chance of me upgrading any time soon.

[@jordanw633]

I don't know what you're on about. I'm sure I noticed Tim had a haircut recently. That's the content I'm here for!

[@threadripper979]

I'm an AMD fanboy, but if they screw up, I appreciate you guys calling them out. The more these companies are held accountable, the better their products become.

[@C21-hv8ch]

These are the CPUs Intel should’ve launched at the absolute latest 5 years ago, 2 years after AMD launched chiplet-based 1st gen Ryzen. Intel had a massive lead, capital to spend, and could cheat off of their competitors’ homework. They refused and pissed it all away instead. There’s a reason why this company has lost 2/3rds of its value in the last 5 years. Incompetence and Intel go hand-in-hand.

[@electricindigoball1244]

1st generation Ryzen wasn't using a chiplet architecture. You can kind of argue it for 1st generation Threadripper and EPYC but in case of AM4 the first CPUs using the chiplet architecture were the Zen 2 Ryzen 3000 CPUs released in 2019.

[@rogerk6180]

It takes a long time to design something new like this. The 10nm desaster didn't help either i imagine.

[@Hugh_I]

​@@electricindigoball1244 Technically what they called chiplets only started with zen2. But the general concept was already there with zen1. Zen1 was one single die used across multiple products, making small single die desktop CPUs or large EPYCs/TRs by combining multiple. The other huge advantage only came to be with zen2, when they combined dies made with different nodes. And then it truly became chiplets. Intel to this day has understood the advantages of combining different nodes, but still don't seem to get the point of the former. AMD is still just making a handful of dies for all their products, saving them a lot of money - while Intel just went from making a gazillion different expensive monolithic dies to now making a plethora of single use chiplets, which is still way more expensive than what AMD does.

[@sspringss2727]

@@electricindigoball12445 years ago was literally zen 3(almost) so op is not incorrect for what he/she is stating.

[@electricindigoball1244]

@@sspringss2727 If by "almost" you mean a year before. First Zen 2 Ryzen CPUs were released in July of 2019 while the first Zen 3 Ryzen CPUs were released in November of 2020.

[@solidreactor]

When HUB says "It depends" ™ then we have some kind of competition which is good! We both want and need that in order to keep the tech space healthy and evolving. so do look forward to the "It depends" ™ conclusions in their videos ;)

[@chopvvs]

You are doing great job, don't listen to negative comments.

[@youtubevanced4900]

Intel needed to price the new chip at the same price or lower than the 9700X. It’s insane they have it over $600.

[@monkeypunk7177]

I was really looking forward to upgrading from my 13th gen intel toaster, looking like 9800x3d for now

[@pedro.alcatra]

​@Sub5-realbecause it performs worse on gaming. Have you been in a cave?

[@Warmeister-zr2tg]

@@pedro.alcatra rumor has it that the 9950x3d will feature dual 3d vcache so it will be even better if game utilises it.

[@TheNerd]

@@pedro.alcatra no need to insult because you have insecurities

[@Audiosan79]

@@Warmeister-zr2tg That is just rumors. And even if they did dual CCD 3D cache, the 9800X3D will be faster do to the latancy between CCD's. I doubt they'll be able to fix that issue. Not at this point in time.

[@Batman-bh6vw]

​@@pedro.alcatraI wonder if Zen 6 will increase the number of cores per CCD. Depends on how good Nova Lake is, I suppose. If not, I might just consider holding off until AM6. A single-die 16-core with the new and improved cache layout would be a pretty neat little gaming/productivity chip.

[@lucazani2730]

Is there any better feeling than watching a hardware unboxed podcast video while chilling during Halloween holidays after two hard months of university studies? You guys are the best❤

[@pedro.alcatra]

Are you chilling? I am fighting against myself to not solve the amount of work I have to do for university

[@Hersendood]

@@pedro.alcatrareal I had deadlines haha, glad they got to chill tho!

[@RaccChannel]

I had to look up what "dummy spit" meant, but you better believe I'm using that in my day-to-day from now on

[@frshunter]

When Tim visits I think that you should sit in different rooms just for tradition sake! Maybe set up a string with two cans for secure communication between the rooms.

[@KenTechAdventures]

I'll chime in on the boxed processor use case. I run boxed processors on 4 servers in the basement and only one boxed CPU is used for gaming in my office. So depending on what I'm buying for, I care more about productivity.

[@AvengingN00b]

That was a LOT of words for what you could have just said "Good reviews are evergreen content" LMAO . Great video though thx guys, I appreciate every single thing you say, especially if it angers the fanboys :) PS: I recently upgraded from a 5900X to a 5800X3D and I watched all your videos, all 200 of them, huge upgrade especially when it comes to the 1 and .1%!

[@MarkHyde]

Intel's historic complacency was contagious - plain and simple ;)

[@seanscott1933]

If we look at the X3D like a good television series that REALLY get's into it's groove, season three is where they really take off and find their fan base expand. Some of the best shows in history didn't get refined and gain a larger "customer base" until then. This is the X3D "third season" so to speak. I think that those that were hesitant to jump onto the X3D band wagon will be more comfortable now that the first two "seasons" are well received. Just a thought.

[@rafauwaxc2871]

I actually love the videos you guys made with the ray tracing benchmarks. They were super helpful and put a lot of things into context for performance of the graphics cards.

[@electricindigoball1244]

I see some people making excuses for Arrow Lake by calling it the Ryzen moment for Intel but that ignores the fact that when first generation Ryzen CPUs released they were faster and more efficient than Piledriver CPUs in all cases. Even in multithreaded workloads the FX-9590 was slower than the Ryzen 5 1500X. By comparison depending on the workload Arrow Lake can not only be slower than AMD CPUs but even Raptor Lake or Alder Lake CPUs. As such it would be more accurate to call Arrow Lake a mix between a Ryzen and a Bulldozer moment for Intel.

[@Hugh_I]

yeah that argument is dumb, its really just copium. It's more like what people argued about bulldozer: yeah it's slower, but it lays the groundwork for a new architecture that will be great once it comes fully together. And fine wine and all that. Except that that never happened. If Intel had anything remotely close to a zen1 moment, it was alder lake. It was a departure from their previous designs, decent performance gains that got them some wins back in MT and there were actual reasons to think this could scale up even better. Except it was a just a one off, there was no zen2. RPL was barely a zen+ and now Intel is doing something completely different already, that has no signs of being an actual better design. Sure it is more efficient, but that's the least you should expect from moving to 3nm and lowering the insane power limits.

[@Anders357]

The fact intel cannot improve performance while transitioning from 7nm finfet to 3 nm TSMC is mindblowing. A 14900k refresh built on 3 nm would absolutely blow the 285k ultra out of the water, plus you would actually be able to cool it. The new design may be more secure, since its ditching HT, but it is not impressive, which is what they need. They should fire the people responsible for the design updates, because the new CPU's actually made the situation worse. Intel has dug their own hole since Coppermine. The hunt for performance over security, blatant disregard for warnings, then choosing performance over heat output for 5-6 generations, combined with ever more stock dividends for ceo's, bonuses and a hierarchy strong enough to silence those smart enough to understand what was going on.

[@jacobew2000]

It is basically the chip that should had come out 2 years ago instead of the 14th generation.

[@Hugh_I]

Hum, even they they would have been quite disappointing as well though. 14th gen was not much of an uplift over 13th gen. So compared to 13th gen, Arrow lake would've still looked like a step backwards in perf.

[@ItsAkile]

The only thing that can save Arrow other than a big update is to promise Panther Lake on the same platform and drop the price, also it should on be on sale to begin with

[@oppressorable]

If they intend to have those cpu for productivity, they need to step up the io a tad. If it had 40 or 48 pcie lanes, there might be a use for them.

[@lukemcdo]

Outside of my personal SFF perspective, it's worth pointing out that the CPU team seems to have been building this either to be portable between Intel 20A and TSMC, or built it on 20A and ported it to TSMC. The fact that this shipped reasonably on time is insane. I also have to wonder if the reason to ship this product is to use up the Meteor Lake-S dies, chipsets, and sockets that went unused. The bailout to TSMC makes me think that this was a "build the cheapest competing product" situation.

[@B_Machine]

Realizing different updates of windows affect chips differently has opened a whole new can of worms for CPU reviews.

[@0o9ijnbhytgr]

We should be glad that your channel and channels like GN exist, great information and when compagnies try a fast one you will stick it to them 👍

[@af4396]

I was excited for Arrow Lake because of Lunar Lake's incredible achievements in the laptop market. Lunar Lake took 3 steps forward in the laptop market, while Arrow Lake took I step forward and 2 steps back in the desktop market. Just weird.

[@zachb1706]

Arrow Lake mobile chips look good though. Intel was focussed on improving efficiency rather than raw performance, which should pay dividends into the future

[@robertdarmetko2718]

if you guys switch spots it matches up with your hoodies

[@KimBoKastekniv47]

"Underwhelming products don't generate views" - I agree, that's why I haven't bothered watching any of your 10+ videos on Zen5 after the initial review.

[@kieran9882]

Could there be a problem with Windows task scheduler where the efficiency cores are being used more than the performance cores? I heard someone got higher performance in games with one performance core enabled

[@ssplayer]

Check out the jayztwocents video on what a huge difference CU-DIMM memory makes with Arrow Lake.

[@rgstroud]

I think many want the best of both worlds both desktop app performance and gaming. I got the 7950X3D as an upgrade from the 5950X when it went on sale for $460. Best performance overall with gaming and very efficient and excellent price thanks to your review on the TieChi B650E Lite.

[@noahallen5046]

I wanted to replace my 5950x with a 9950X3D or a 285k, but these gains for these prices...meh.

[@seeibe]

Especially with the 5950x being under 300€ now. You can't beat that value.

[@noahallen5046]

@@seeibe I mean I've had it for over two years so the price now doesn't matter a whole lot to me. But yep

[@JaleTechAndGaming]

Where power efficiency is an issue with custom builds is cooling. Cooling the components and the room they are in. Many want good performance, but don't want to install a dedicated AC unit in the room... General power efficiency is most important in laptops (battery life) or distributed PCs (keeping energy costs down). I've built over 1,000 computers and about 1/2 of them were for performance gaming, the other were split between things like Trust of the person, day trading, CAD, Productivity, Streaming/entertainment, Home lab, no limits workstations, etc.

[@andrewbroadfort6856]

Still loving my 5800X3D and 7900 GRE. Your reviews of the GRE inspired me to get it. I am a cross platform person and the new M4 Max SoC from Apple appears to be besting AMDs/Intels latest 9950X/14900K/285K in initial benchmarks. Seems they are hitting both efficiency and performance out of the park. And the M4 Max is a laptop part. Kinda wierd to think that, for a video editing rig, a laptop has the potential to trounce a desktop.

[@joeykeilholz925]

Assuming you don't use GPU acceleration in video editing.... Which.... Lol

[@Shadowbot074]

Can’t wait to see how the 9800x3d compares to the 5800x3d! ;)

[@BT_Canonz]

24h2 caused a hit on the 5800x as well. I've seen a consistent 20% decrease in warzone specifically in fps and 1% lows. I want to upgrade soon but is it worth going to a possible 9900x3d or go 7900x3d? I've started streaming and such so I'm thinking more cores in my upgrade. Working with a 4070ti super. What does H.U suggest?

[@adi6293]

Was this video recorded and edited on a PC with a 5800X3D?

[@Johan-rm6ec]

I like your CoOp with GN.

[@zCaptainz]

And was the instability FIXED? When will we know..? ... June 2025???

[@chiyolate]

If they were LGA 1700 I'd still buy the 265K.

[@LilMissMurder3409]

Agreed. Forcing a new chipset and platform is the _real_ miscalculation here.

[@Aspire705]

@@LilMissMurder3409​​⁠Only if you assume that Intel's calculation was based on doing what's best for their customers instead of what's best for their bottom line.

[@mattzun6779]

​@@Aspire705 At some point you have to supply enough value for customer to be good for the bottom line. Of course, Intel's real customers are Dell, HP and Lenovo - not you or I.

[@seacowDUGONG]

Take care you guys. Family and self-care is of prime importance.

[@georgioszampoukis1966]

22:55 My guess is that the majority of your viewers game on their PCs (including me), though at the same time, the minority of them buy a CPU strictly for gaming. AMD comparing the 9800X3D to the 285K was completely pointless imo, yes the 9800X3D will be way better at gaming, but try using it in literally everything else and compare it to the 285K. It will fall apart. Yes, it is sad the 285K does not perform great in gaming, but it is not meant to be a gaming CPU, and now that we are slowly normalizing buying $500 8-core CPUs for gaming, I do not know how well this will go into the future. 24:20 The reason you get so many views is not because you focus on gaming, but because you are thorough, excellent at presenting, clean and understandable visuals and remarkably analytical. You are a joy to watch. Level1tech is another great example, he is getting tons of views while focusing very little on gaming because Wendel is also excellent at both testing and presenting. I would assume that including more testing such as linux, productivity etc, would be highly appreciated by viewers.

[@MissMan666]

9800X3D dosn't fall apart when doing things outside gaming, not at all. X3D are not strictly gaming CPU's. Also keep in mind that the 9800X3D has 500mhz higher base clock and 200mhz higher boost, so this time there is not really any clock regression going from non X3D parts. If you want stronger multicore performance, you get the 12 or 16 core parts. "285K does not perform great in gaming, but it is not meant to be a gaming CPU" You can be 100% sure that it was meant to do gaming better than 13/14th gen, but obviously they ran into problems with the design and now we have a very expensive part that is not beating the competition even when it's on a better node and cost more to make, it dosn't beat the competition in gaming, multicore performance is a mixed bag when compared to the competition. Arrow lake is one of intels worst releases ever.

[@georgioszampoukis1966]

@@MissMan666 brother, no one will and should ever buy a 285K for gaming. It is a 24-Core CPU. I never said it is a great CPU, but for productivity, server, workstation and ML workloads, it is actually pretty good. The platform is also great at handling high bandwidth IO devices. Take a look at TechpowerUps extended review on the website, you will see a better picture. Gaming is great, but it not the sole reason you build a computer.

[@frshunter]

Assuming it will fall apart before it comes out is a little premature. 285k is not more efficient, not as good in gaming, and not winning across the board in production. That is why it's not a halo product and it was supposed to be. The 285k is not a bad processor it's just not what it claims to be and charges for. There are better choices and that is bad for a new flagship product.

[@ppp3435]

You mentioned one important thing I think nobody has covered. How core ultra stands against the power limited 13/14 series? I'd like to see such comparison.

[@crevusllohcin]

Good stuff you guys. Not sure if you know how many people play flight sim 2020 but could you include it in the 9800x 3d review please. Could you compare the 9800x 3d against the other 3d chips as well.

[@bthjf12003]

It's also puzzle Intel released Arrow Lake without some sort of multi-threaded solution like rentable units, if not stick with hyper-threading for now.

[@TheHighborn]

16:30 I never really gave a shit about efficiency, but intel cpus are uncoolable and were self destructive. That unacceptable

[@eminented]

We wish you both were standing and delivering this discussion

[@Yellowswift3]

Before Arrow Lake CPUs landed, there wasn't much expectation with regard to performance, but unfortunately, it was so lacklustre, that it made Zen 5 look a little less egregious!

[@Godmode_ON24]

Ayyy B450 Tomahawk mention, still rocking mine on my 5800x3d.

[@LiteOS]

Awesome to see u are taking it that srs as it was good cpu

[@kurgo_]

Tim: "some..." me, oh, will Tim toe the line here? "...AMD fanboys" lol, thanks for calling a spade a spade Tim

[@methos1024]

Same here, i had bought a 5800X3D :D

[@berndkemmereit8252]

Steve need to introduce a "word usage list". Something like "Bad = 5% behind promise", "terrible = 5-10% behind promise", "Flop

[@ShroudedWolf51]

We'll need a whole spreadsheet as to what each term means for each company as well, though. That might get really confusing.

[@Endorsememe]

I'm still cooking on my 13900kf since the release date.😮

[@Osprey850]

It must be nice to have a CPU that doubles as a stove top.

[@Krishna-pt3yu]

​@@Osprey850 Its not impossibe to cool it or something. Lets man enjoy his CPU 😊. (He can also use it as a Space heater).

[@Gantali9305]

@@Krishna-pt3yu I think he was making a comment on the "cooking on my 13900K" section of that comment.

[@joemarais7683]

@@Osprey850 the trick is to use a 200mm external rad with no fans. It’s the perfect size to heat up pizza

[@prussell890]

​@@Osprey850well i changed from intel 13700k to the 7800x3d and i hate it, the temps are high if not higher, gaming feels no different and its so dam slow at video rending 😢 i can safely say im going back to intel next time!

[@JahonCross]

Will there be monitor unboxed content here?

[@levigoldson]

I'm not an AMD fan, never bought one of their products (at least, not in the last 20 years), but I can tell you right now, Intel is on the ropes. My next processor is likely going to be AMD unless something changes in the next few years, which I think is unlikely. And this is pretty bad for everyone, we need 2 companies both with compelling products to compete.

[@Brent_P]

Going Zen 5D and never looking back.

[@puffyips]

X3D

[@Michael-it6gb]

I'm still happily stuck on 2600 and you guys can have your cute fights about the super latest CPU you need 😄

[@erictayet]

Yeah, AMD shot themselves in the foot by over-promising. Who knows what their marketing team was thinking. I really hope the 9800X3D is as good as AMD is letting on and they have learnt their lesson. It's a matter of expectations. Intel didn't fudge up their numbers much and there's hope a Windows update can improve some of the performance since there's no Hyperthreading now, so Windows Kernel has to take that into account, which I'm guessing it doesn't right now. The clock on the P-cores and E-cores in the 285K is as close as it ever was compared to Raptor-Lake with the only exception being a smaller cache in the E-cores. IDK man, how is Intel going to tell the OS, whether Windows or Linux, the state of its cores? Also, the socket 1851 seems to suffer from excessive noise. If an external clock from the RAM is the only way to synchronise the CPU and improve performance, it either means there's not enough isolation of the pinout for memory pins, or there are issues with the memory controller in the CPU. I seem to remember Arrow Lake has some interesting DDR5 operating mode in this gen. This can be tested by checking the raw bit error rate since DDR5 has single bit error detection for non ECC RAM. SMT has been in x86 for so long that most people forget how poor Atom run in Windows compared to Android.

[@paulboyce8537]

Very small change and correct RAM 5.1 E Cores/4.1 Cache with CUDIMM 8400 Arrow Lake is on top. INTEL is so underpowered and so much ahead on productivity even on UDIMM out of the box. OS doesn't even support Arrow Lake fully and MB's are so far from optimal BOIS that it is not even funny. Add to that the low end MB's and ASUS that are really only frying the CPU. INTEL released a handful of 285K's just to get some feedback to keep MB manufacturers at check. Plus the real performance for gaming comes with Battlemage that is obvious from the lack of Hyper-Threading Technology and very strong E Cores. 285K is already faster than 7800X3D and on par at gaming. Comparison has been done with UDIMM's because AMD doesn't support CUDIMM. These results don't even have new updates included yet. There is huge optimisation on OS and BIOS that most likely will lift Arrow Lake fair bit. 9800X3D and Arrow Lake will be a tight race when all is working. Add Battlemage and I think INTEL will be the winner.

[@JamesRussoMillas]

The 7800X3D was the best gaming CPU out there for over a year and only after the bad Zen5 and AL reviews does the mainstream realize it and the price shoots from likw $360 to $480. 9800X3D isn't even going to be a big uplift like 7800X3D was over 5800X3D. Gamers are really late to this party lol.

[@Paraclef]

I would like, you, to understand, that the non X3D am5 chips, were / are / will be the ones, which could not be sold as a X3D processors. But AMD can not say that, even if X3D are the only chips, that they want to sell and all the consumers want to buy. It brings multiple advantages to do like this, gaining momentum as strategic agenda, material product depreciation, and time to collect the best chips possible. AM5 launch was in that regard a frank success, and the 9th X3D series will be, I am pretty sure, far better than the 9950x and 9900x, contrary to the previous gen.

[@JReinhoud]

I think a good product review will work better, because if one of the spoken products where good, I would probably watch this video again to get the product type before buying or recommending. Also it would probably more linked and referred elsewhere

[@neroo6355]

Would steve benchmark monster hunter wilds demo performance?

[@00wheelie00]

Arrow Lake is Intel's Bulldozer moment (Slower and less efficient). They can still sell it, just like AMD sold Bulldozer: make it significantly cheaper than the competition. The platform is perfectly fine, commit to bringing a few generations to this platform so there's an upgrade path. Those that want the fastest systems still won't buy it, but those on budgets or not necesarily looking for the highest performance will buy it if there's a future in it.

[@seaneyo]

Plus, those of us locked in to software which requires Intel or strategically bottlenecks amd will still purchase, hoping for improvements on this socket down the line.

[@VoldoronGaming]

Not even remotely comparable to bulldozer. Watch jays2cents recent video where he used CUDIMMs. It is right on the heels of the 7800x3d in gaming and faster in dcc applications than the 9950x

[@B1u35ky]

It’s not slower than AMD if you have the new CUDIMM memory

[@nipa5961]

Bulldozer was cheap at least. ARL is DOA and they can't even lower prices since it's too expensive to produce.

[@yasaldesilva]

@@B1u35ky "if", with the CUDIMM being way more expensive and not available in certain regions. Thats like saying 'your ford will be missing 200 horsepower unless you buy our 2000 dollar pink carbon fibre air intake'.

[@ShroudedWolf51]

The reason why people do analysis of specific words is because words have meaning that they communicate. If you tell someone that a sandwich place is kinda bad, they may still go there. Whereas if you say it's terrible, they will never consider it again.

[@simptrix007]

If Intel didnt talk crap about TSMC and kept that 40% manufacturing discount we could see 8+32 CPU this generation that would actually be great option for productivity tasks.

[@Krishna-pt3yu]

TSMC were so Kind to intel with that Huge 40% discount for like Millions of Chips. Sure they would be screwing over Intel Foundaries, but that was already done by intel lol. I think Intel foundary biz should be spun off like AMD's.

[@Niblss]

@@Krishna-pt3yu no. and it wont be allowed to anymore either, the west cant afford to not have chip manufacturing anymore

[@Hjominbonrun]

They had to stop production of the 14th gen due to prod issues. They also needed to replace it with something post haste to fill that gap. So maybe they rushed it to be able to sell. I am waiting for some MB bios updates.

[@JBits-m9p]

only problem with that is, its not selling.

[@MissMan666]

I agree with that they had to replace the 14th asap. But that does not mean they rushed Arrow lake anymore than they did prior to degradation issues went puplic. These parts take years to design, and at the time where degradation issues where all over, the Arrow lake parts had been in final design and in production already, so there was no time to rush anything design wise at that point.

[@landoishisname]

Speaking of negative content, I remember every tech channel complaining of substantially reduced views during the GPU mining boom inflating prices to high hell

[@psycho5825]

I just hope we don't get disappointed by new GPUs. I'm running a 6800xt and i hope i can upgrade for a reasonable price.

[@syrinx9196]

It's already disappointing. Thank duopoly.

[@PLAY4_FUN]

RX 8000 series will be a monster (Raster + Ray Tracing) with good prices too.

[@syrinx9196]

@@PLAY4_FUN That's not what AMD said. AMD said it's continuing to abandon the high end (which it has done since Polaris). I didn't mention that this strategy helps it by letting Nvidia set prices artificially high which cascades down the whole stack.

[@PLAY4_FUN]

@@syrinx9196 I am not talking about high end graphic cards but about mid range ones AMD will offer good graphic cards with better performance and huge RT performance boost too with good prices.

[@jonathanhayhurst3928]

Arrow Lake is an improvement… Over Alder Lake

[@gizmo104drives7]

Also the 5800x3d benchmark demand is the tech equivalent of "banana for scale" Long live this meme

[@rigatoni-3]

1:12:08 It's a dry heat.

[@RyanLBC]

Thanks Steve’s

[@Bass.Player]

I'm building a Arrow Lake system this week. I think Intel will fix these issues...

[@elmariachi5133]

Alder Lake will actually be a great choice for most! Just wait for the prices to drop into the abyss and then get board plus CPU with near the performance of current highend Ryzens for half the overall price. Yes, it sill takes more electricity than Ryzen, but not nearly as terrible before and actually in an acceptable range which potentiaally never will make up for the Ryzen's (then) higher price in most regions..

[@fdiskformat5049]

Intel Core Ultra 9 285K Tray - Processor -- 719€ What happend to Intel ? You get a lot off problems vore only a CPU paying 719€ in The Netherlands !!! Intel lost me to AMD finally got a 7800 X3D and Motherboard and DDR5 32gb mem 800€ together .

[@jimr5703]

WTF is going on with these tech companies? AMD released their next gen with virtually no performance gains and Intel posts an effort that actually goes BACKWARDS !! What-the-actual-'F'???

[@joeykeilholz925]

AI bro trust me bro

[@NorthWolfe]

With how cheap the 13th and 14th are, why would anyone even consider this misfire? As an always Intel/Nvidia person, I'm not considering upgrading for the foreseeable future, I have a 12th Gen Core I9 12900K on a Formula Apex Mobo, and I see no reason to upgrade, not one single reason. This is not happening only in the computing CPU realm, with both Intel and AMD releasing stillborn chips, this is happening with everything. "We", the global West industrial societies can now only make shite, aeroplanes, cars, everything is shite. I still remember the epic Intel "Costa Rica" chips, which we used to chase.

[@ashamahee]

There are plenty of users who have configured their 14th gen themselves and have zero issues with it, in fact they claim its the very best they have had for gaming especially the 14900k if you remember to disable the single core boosting at the very first start up so the cpu doesnt start the damage on itself. Never done anything relating to OC myself so I would have to think twice about it.

[@gsestream]

you could also use less application performant processor (x3d) for combined application and gaming. you just dont care about the 10% application difference whatnot. if you use that for serious work then you dont care about the price either. you just buy the best but not the best for the applications usage, but the best and enough for applications, and games. well some soap is useful sometimes. lol.

[@UnitTube]

Hi from Sydney. Love the podcast guys. Very informative as always! Congratulations on episode 50!

[@ott9990]

no worries we watch u because of u guys, products are secondary :D

[@solidreactor]

Arrow Lake could have been a hit if the first 2 out of these 3 things "requirements" were met: 1) Price! More specifically price for gamers (as you two mentioned) that the "cost per frame" should be significant (not marginally) below any X3D cpu and having the price being updated after the 9000 X3D release. 2) Maturity, the CPUs are NOT mature, too many stability issues (crashes, anti cheat e.t.c.) and performance issues (the weird use cases that tanks performance). If you treat your customers as alpha testers you do not respect them. 3) Product naming matching the performance, both to the competition and Intels own previous CPUs. I would have liked to see the 285K being named more like 255K or 265K, to be equivalent to which class they ACTUALLY belongs to and which CPUs they would "replace" from both their own and the competitors CPUs. If at least the two first points would have been met, optionally and preferably the 3rd one as well, then I believe that Arrow Lake could have been a success story that paves the road, trust and mindshare towards the next Intel CPU.

[@dkman123]

So what Tim really wants is a thumbnail with a happy poo emoji? That's what I took from this.

[@DaveRamus-j2b]

Since I recently learned how snapdragon can build such a incredibly powerful and energy efficient cpu in such a small size. I've realized that intel has been fooling us in past few years 😒

[@retrosean199]

On the plus side, if you update your LGA 1700 board, the 13th gen CPUs are cheap now! And probably won't explode!

[@joeykeilholz925]

Blues clues is somewhat different than I remember

[@chhandobhihbhushan2742]

I remember when those B450 Tomahawks got pricier and then sold out after the reviews, then the same happened to Asrock B650M HDV/M.2. Positive reviews do have negative consequences at least for me because I couldn't buy either of them ;)

[@aXDroptimus]

I love that thumbnail 😂

[@Ferdinand208]

We don't use TIM here. We solder.

[@dcprojects7919]

I said it on Tim’s ray tracing video too but I still think focusing on it the way Nvidia (and their fanboys) want yall to just makes the case against ray tracing stronger since you just see that it still costs like 40-50% of your performance in most titles

[@davidbooth1634]

Nova Lake is rumoured to launch in late 2026, and following the same cadence from Zen 3 > Zen 4 > Zen 5, we would expect Zen 6 to launch in late~ 2026 as well. The AMD Ryzen 7 9800X3D will be the fastest gaming CPU for a good 2~ years. I feel sorry for Intel

[@mjc0961]

9800X3D will be only 2-4% faster than 7800X3D because Zen 5 is a waste of sand for gaming, I feel sorry for gamers.

[@smilingbandit6900]

@@mjc0961 but the 7800X3D is end of life. No good price even used.

[@TheMonthlyJack]

Yeah, seeing the beginnings of both's next major architecture. Zen 5 building on past experience, while being a ground up design. Intel having a Zen 1 generation, but unlike AMDs Zen 1, they are coming off a strong previous design. Also ground up design.

[@Raivo_K]

@@TheMonthlyJack Except Zen 1 massively improved over Bulldozer. Arrow Lake in some cases regressed compared to Raptor Lake. I would not call that a Zen 1 moment. And despite using superior node from TSMC it at best ties with Zen 5 at higher power consumption and worse latency.

[@maxbirdsey7808]

​@@mjc0961 I guess we'll see soon enough, and I'm not expecting 9800X3D to wow me, but I do think your underestimating the Zen 5 X3D parts. First of all, cache chiplet on the bottom means better thermals for the cores which is why they've boosted the base and boost frequencies. 200MHz boost isn't much but that's already 4%. Secondly, I suspect that the re-use of Zen 4's IOD is part of the problem with lacklustre Zen 5 desktop performance. With Zen 5 being a wider architecture, I think the IOD is struggling to feed it as reliably. It's interesting because when you look at Zen 5 in mobile (monolithic) or in server (new IOD), Zen 5 looks like a pretty sizable upgrade all things considered. While the IOD on desktop remains unchanged, Zen 5 X3D may see more of an uplift by virtue of being fed more reliably - in other words the 3D V-cache may enable more of the underlying IPC that is potentially currently hampered by the IOD. Thirdly, and like you said, Zen 5 itself offers 2-4% uplift. So, I'd expect the 9800X3D to be in the ~10% improvement ballpark for gaming. Given they seemingly have discontinued/reduced stock of the 7800X3D anyways, by the time it comes out you're getting an uplift for more-or-less what the 7800X3D is currently selling for. Personally, if I was AMD and the X3D parts perform how I'm expecting them to, I would've just launched the 16-core non-X3D and the 8-core, 12-core and 16-core X3D SKUs (don't really care for the 12 core X3D but the 6-core dies have got to go somewhere), and only launched the standard 6, 8 and 12 cores a few quarters later when naturally phasing out Zen 4 anyways. With the Windows issues sorted prior to launch as well. Zen 5 wouldn't be a flop if they launched it like that because at least they're offering small performance bumps to the halo products, even if they're not amazing value.

[@Kneedragon1962]

15 minutes in ~ the thing that struck me, was we had a pretty unanimous opinion, from a dozen or more tech tubers, all over the world, that the Zen 5 CPUs were underwhelming at best. We feel Jyped! We feel cheated! They lied to us! This thing performs 5% better and all it get in everything else, is parity. We thought we were going to see 40 ~ 50% uplifts in frame rates but all I got was this crappy T-shirt. Then ~ a week later ~ Intel launches, the best we see is a 5% uplift and deeply mixed results, but the power draw is less, but there are questions about that, and then we have 4 different versions of windows and did you have a re-size-able bar while you handled your joystick? And then do we tell the public about all the BSOD moments, or not? But that's the new world we live in and ~ Wait a f*ckin minute! You just blasted the living f*ck out of AMD for much the same kind of thing, and this week you're holding Pat Gelsinger's hand over almost the same kind of complaints and figures. Why do we have a Red Standard and Blue standard? Why do we have this double standard? You're forgiving Intel for more or less the same complaints you just blasted AMD for!! I know Intel are in trouble and you shouldn't kick a man when he's down, but ~ fer fux ache! The apparent contradictions! You are not judging these two companies, or these two launches / products, by anything like the same standards!

[@Mervinion]

AMD lied in their presentation of Zen 5 about its performance. They were rightfully blasted for it. Are 9000 series CPUs bad? No. Besides a few Windows quirks and underwhelming performance (compared to zen4) they're perfectly fine CPUs, but everything was framed in a way than makes them look bad. Arrow Lake? More efficient than previous gen? Sure, good for them, but still worse than competition. How about performance? Very mixed bag, gaming is bad, productivity is decent, but it all falls apart when you get BSOD. Stability is questionable. Are they good CPUs? Not really. And yet most of the reviews are more positively framed just because Intel was more truthful about AL performance. Intel should be crapped on for their -3%, when AMD got all this bad rep for +5%.