Intel Fixes E-Cores For Gaming, Doesn’t Give 12th & 13th Gen Users The Fix! APO Testing

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Video Index
00:00 - Welcome to Hardware Unboxed
02:44 - Test System Specs
03:07 - Metro Exodus [Built-in]
03:46 - Metro Exodus [In-game]
04:22 - Rainbow Six Siege, Very High [Built-in]
04:49 - Rainbow Six Siege, Very High [In-game]
05:02 - Rainbow Six Siege, Low [Built-in]
05:34 - Rainbow Six Siege, Low [In-game]
06:05 - Disable E-Cores Testing
07:00 - What is APO doing?
09:20 - Final Thoughts
Intel Fixes E-Cores For Gaming, Doesn’t Give 12th & 13th Gen Users The Fix! APO Testing
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[@yasashii_koe]

"14th gen, aka totally not 13th gen with a new number, is only supported because uhh reasons. Now please buy 14th gen." - Intel

[@StatsGam4er]

Totally agree with you on this one mate !

[@DerekPaksa]

"And after a lot of 14th gen were sold, procced to support other 3 games. You want support for all the popular games, maybe at 15th gen. Or maybe not. lol" - Intel

[@The_Noticer.]

its 1000 higher, and we all know bigger number is better. Thanks steve.

[@jessefisher1809]

That legitimately fair argument aside my expectations have totally been exceeded with my 14700k. I was so concerned about heat and power use I went out and bought new fans and new thermal paste and man it wasn't even necessary. it runs pretty cool, even with my 240mm aio.

[@seylaw]

This might either hint at a fundamental hardware flaw in prior generations or needless product segmentation to artificially increase the attractiveness of the 14th gen. Either way you look at it, it ain't pretty.

[@Wineblood]

Isn't this what E cores were meant to do? Nice to see them finally working 2 years after release.

[@ca9inec0mic58]

Peak Intel engineering

[@MGK195]

i was told they were flawless, godsent masterpieces of silicon when ADL launched... weird that we need some sketchy software to get two games to properly work.

[@Noe2iq]

One would assume this is indeed how E-cores were meant to work. But they’ve been a PITA for gamers. And now we’re in an era where we have to download “game-ready” drivers for friggin CPUs. I hope AMD don’t go hybrid. Edit: I shouldn’t have written that last sentence. Ryzen 7950X3D does require drivers to disable the non-3D cores for recognised game apps.

[@Lodinn]

@@Noe2iq I don't even get how "game-ready" drivers are supposed to be different. Is that just if AAA_title_1: optimize_for_AAA_title_1() elif AAA_title_2: ... ?!

[@eriuz]

amd hybrid is different from intel, intel E cores is a different cpu while in amd is the same cpu with less cache and smaller @@Noe2iq

[@Brogert.]

Would be awesome if Intel didn't screw over customers who bought hardware during the last year or two.

[@Miroslawkrynda6477]

They’ve got to shift the refreshed intel 12th gen refresh somehow, but I’d guess they’d hopefully add it to the 12 and 13th eventually, in 6-13 months maybe Edit I just finished the video, no ok f intel. Once my 12600kf runs its course or isn’t able to keep up anymore, I’m going amd assuming they’re still competent by then

[@sudeshryan8707]

@@Miroslawkrynda6477 y do u even assume amd wouldnt be competent by then? wt gives?

[@MrMartinSchou]

But then there's no reason for those customers to buy new hardware.

[@lldjslim]

I see alot of hating on Intel, because if AMD were doing this, they would be getting awarded for it just like they did with MANTLE which did not deliver the performance frames in games that it was hyped up to be. The double standards that exist in the PC ecosystem just completely blows my mind, and it needs to stop. Both companies have F'up and screwed the consumers and gamers over with shady business practices, and when they get exposed, they both should be getting called out and not one getting bashed and the other one getting a free pass

[@Rem_NL]

Intel just want's to be nr1 in the bench graphs. Developing APO likely already is labor intensive as is. Intel already has enough mindshare i guess so they can screw their own customer base over a little.

[@Verpal]

There are fundamental difference between ''further optimization'' and ''fixing basic functions'', and imo fixing e-core leans more on fixing than optimizing. I understand Intel still need something to sell 14th gen, but still, in terms of GPU, it is like cutting driver support for 20 series GPU when 40 series come out, just underhanded tactic.

[@Battler624]

Mate it's like cutting support for 20 series when the 20 super was released. Cpus on 1 year cycle while gpus on 2 year cycle

[@wile123456]

​@@Battler624true, 14th gen is a boring an pathetic refresh. Only the i7 offers anything new

[@Winnetou17]

You're blowing this out. This is not the same as cutting support WTF. This is like NVidia supporting DLSS 3 only on RTX 3000 GPUs. Not adding a new feature to an older gen is not the same as "cutting support" or "cutting driver support". It's less support.

[@Battler624]

@@Winnetou17 That would be true if there isn't hardware changes between the 30 series and 40 series. 13900K and 14900K are the same cpu just clocked differently.

[@kuruptzZz]

​@@Winnetou17​​DLSS 3 only works on 40 series, not 30. And that's because it has specific hardware that lets the AI do its thing and generate frames with minimal artifacts and delay. If this new feature can be added to older gen hardware with no issues, then they should do it

[@dirtyph0nics]

Love absolute middle finger which intel gives to their user just love that.

[@danielharvison7510]

They sort of rub salt into it with their responses to Steve, completely boilerplate auto-responses that don't even address the questions he was asking. Reeks of "begone with ye, peasant!" But I think most communication with big corpos goes like that. You are important to us, etc.

[@Ghastly10]

Probably so but just know that AMD did the same, and maybe worse with their early Threadripper CPU's.

[@Girvo747]

That’s been Intel for decades lmao

[@lldjslim]

I see alot of hating on Intel, because if AMD were doing this, they would be getting awarded for it just like they did with MANTLE which did not deliver the performance frames in games that it was hyped up to be. The double standards that exist in the PC ecosystem just completely blows my mind, and it needs to stop. Both companies have F'up and screwed the consumers and gamers over with shady business practices, and when they get exposed, they both should be getting called out and not one getting bashed and the other one getting a free pass

[@Girvo747]

@@Ghastly10There’s a large difference between early adopter first-gen TR workstation HEDT processors, and Intel screwing regular normal consumers with consumer desktop processors. Not even in the same ballpark, Intel is worse.

[@WayStedYou]

Should be called APA Actually Pay Again. Because they only gave it to 14th gen.

[@filpoamati]

I love when the same components get the new updates but the same hardware gets left in the dust

[@dmitrypoletaev7478]

"Old" hardware (which is the same as the "new" one)

[@gabry3022]

If you can really call 13th gen old hardware

[@valentinvas6454]

It's even better when 13th gen is the same architecture

[@Neatrior]

Calling 14th gen new is to generous. It’s literally just a refresh. Same underlying tech as 13th gen with minor differences. It ain’t worth it.

[@mick7727]

I love when it's considered 'old' when it's been out for just a couple years. Ps4 is old, xbox 1 is old.

[@Tempest427]

This really makes me want to return my new 13900k that I just picked up, and go to AMD and give them a shot. If 14th "gen" is just a refresh, then there is no reason it shouldn't be supported by 13th gen at the very least. Even if it is only on two games right now, it's just pathetic. Intel, you need to be better.

[@mrlk665]

if you can. why not

[@toonnut1]

Then you'd Need a new AMDip motherboard 😂

[@Tempest427]

@@mrlk665 the hassle that comes with changing the cpu and motherboard...

[@Tempest427]

@@toonnut1 Really? I had no idea...

[@andressgomoso]

do it let them learn they cannot screw you

[@J_Echoes]

Turning the software lock off for 12th and 13th Gen would have made them much more competitive against Zen4, which is in a very good place right now in terms of price/performance, and it would have been a much better look in terms of customer support. But ofc, greed comes first...

[@PAcifisti]

Welcome to capitalism. Your first ride? What else did you expect when their only purpose is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders.

[@BlackJesus8463]

@@PAcifisti Also, we should be greatful they don't strip features after the buy. lol This is going to push so many people to AMD and Intel still needs to sell all those old CPUs that haven't been selling in years.

[@darreno1450]

They would need more supported titles to effectivlely compete and like Tim and Steve, I'm skeptical of how well other games would adapt to it.

[@WaspMedia3D]

Intel doesn't care about anything but taking your money.

[@TheAkustikus]

If those freaking AM5 Mainboards weren't this expensive i would give it a whirl. But with the cheapest boards beeing double the price... no thx AMD.

[@alecs5255]

looks like 1 E-core of each cluster of 4 is active - to maximise use of all available L2 cache (which is shared between 4 cores of a cluster). This should be possible to test replicate using affinity pinning.

[@Winnetou17]

Good observation!

[@timmok7862]

Indeed. Also an implicit admission they are pretty much useless for gaming. Probably would have been better off swapping 4E cores for one real 1P core instead

[@Your_Paramour]

@@timmok7862 In most cases adding more P cores wont improve performance in games.

[@saricubra2867]

​@@timmok7862The i9-10900K with 10 big cores loses against a 12700K with 8 big cores and 4 little cores.

[@Nalianna]

@@saricubra2867 "the 10900K from 2 generations earlier loses to a 12700K that's 2 generations later " fixed it for you.

[@rozzbourn3653]

i predict APO will be enabled on 12th and 13th gen weather intel wants it to happen or not.

[@lightward9487]

Not, Sólo 14700k/kf y 14900k/kf yes

[@PK-lk5gs]

Unless there is a source code leak or some hefty decompiling/reverse engineering by the community, I don't see this happening. It's quite easy to block off APO based on CPUID in the driver and not within application itself. Of course this can be circumvented as well, but the means and effort required would scare off like 97% of the potential users.

[@thisisashan]

@@PK-lk5gs Could probably spoof CPUID requests in that case, which could be as simple as a program loaded up at start-up. But I think in that case you'd need a CPU with matching Cores/ECores which... could be problematic. I have a 12650h in my laptop, and there just isn't a matching 14th gen processor. So likely trying to spoof would lead to bugs or a crash, or something. All speculation at this point because I have no clue how APO is working aside from 'make e-cores work better'.

[@PK-lk5gs]

@@thisisashan It is indeed all speculation at this point, but I meant that if APO operates at driver level, then it has to be signed and integrity-checked at OS start-up. And querying CPUID is at least a system call which you wouldn't want to mess with, or probably (since this is driver level anyway) it queries CPUID with assembly command executed directly on CPU. On the other hand some clever disassembly and probably some self-signed certificates used for bypassing integrity checks could resolve the issue 🙂That is exactly the part that might scare people away

[@thisisashan]

@PK-lk5gs if it's driver level then it would be the mobo chipset drivers, which wouldn't make sense since the 14 series is on the same chipset as the 13s. Also, cpu do not have drivers. So it won't be driver level. Even if it queries from the cpu itself, you can still at the very least replace the call in a hex editor (or with a patch from someone like me that knows what he is doing) with a simple variable = whatuwant. So no need to reverse engineer. Nothing to do with drivers. Intel however would be upset with you, so if it "leaked" it better come out anon from some VPN from the Netherlands that routes through a VPN in China or some weird mess that they can't untangle.

[@arsicpedja]

So the only way theu can push 14th gen is to give it exlusive software that actually makes it to work as it was intended in the begining... Clasical Intel.

[@Trickzter1337]

They have to make people buy the “new” cpus somehow.

[@Zarkil]

14nm+++ sorry, are you implying intel (or amd) would limit performance enhancing features to new hardware for profit? What's hilarious is that tons of intel users are now combing the bios to see what their doing and how to apply it to more games and 12-13gen.

[@EmanuelHoogeveen]

Makes me wonder if some clever people will figure out how to get APO working on 12th and 13th gen models on motherboards with APO-supporting BIOSes. If it can be shown to work the same on older hardware, they would really have no leg to stand on.

[@elirantuil5003]

Probably easier on 13th because of the better memory controller

[@AerynGaming]

13900k/ks and 14900k are physically identical products that were manufactured often within the same batches, just labeled differently.

[@ChowHound1337]

Asrock n gigabyte will do it just like they enabled BLCK OC on 13th gen. My 13100 build screams

[@DanielGT_93]

​@@ChowHound1337Wich board are u using?

[@jessefisher1809]

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I mean its the same damn die how hard could it be?

[@Vuzdorlva]

If Intel doesn't provide this feature for previous gen, especially 13th gen since it's literally identical, I'm hard switching to an alternative when I do my next build. It's a big "up yours" to those of us who bought both 12th and 13th gen. Also, it seems counterproductive because it devalues their old stock that's still waiting to be sold.

[@seylaw]

For this reason we might only get to see more APO supported games when Intel finished to sell through their old stock. They want to milk their old stock for the highest price they can during this holiday season.

[@leonro]

I don't see why they would care about old stock losing value though. I assume that most 12th and 13th gen parts have been sold to retailers, so now their value is no longer Intel's problem. They already sold the stock.

[@zodwraith5745]

Don't so quickly forget AMD pulled this exact same shit with driver level FG and RDNA3. Intel is hardly alone in this fuckery. Although admittedly AMD's FG is garbage that no one wants, and this is something the multitude of 12th and 13th gen owners _will_ want. Where's the outrage from the AMD fanboys?

[@rhagsen]

I´m on a 12700k, was planning to go 14700k but the 7800x3d is starting look better and better now

[@andersjjensen]

@@zodwraith5745 Uh, considering AMD brought FMF to RDNA2 before it was even out of beta (it still isn't, btw) and that AMD's initial statement about FMF carefully included a "for now" it does look like AMD learned the lesson from the AM4 shenanigans. AMD is still at a size where the community can muscle them, but in the case of FMF there wasn't really any uproar because mostly everyone expected the technology to compare like FSR1 to RSR.

[@CHA0SHACKER]

Something that i noticed too is that they use only 1 E-Core per E-Core cluster, so that E-Core has access to the full L2 of that cluster and doesn’t produce contention on the cluster L3 interface. Very smart

[@CossackHD]

It'd be interesting to force CPU affinity in same configuration. Would be interesting to see benchmark: "13900K process lasso" vs "14900K APO".

[@asm_nop]

I feel like while this strategy does certainly improve performance, the method seems to substantially undercut the value of having *sixteen separate E-Cores*. When you have to disable 75% of the E-Cores to pile E-cluster resources on the remaining ones to achieve the expected performance, isn't that a bit like... just having 4 more P-Cores executing from a big L2 at reduced clocks? Seems to me like they could ignore the 8P+16E concept altogether. Just start with a 12P chip, and add a special P-state for every 2nd core called 'lock to

[@niter43]

​@@asm_nopE-cores help in tasks that multithread well, games just don't have anything to schedule on 16 small cores. It's normal, games ain't end-all target load.

[@notthedroidsyourelookingfo4026]

For games, I think you're right. But workloads that scale better with more threads have shown to do well on E-cores.

[@HappyBeezerStudios]

I still have a core 2 quad here, and for some cases I do pretty much the same and run different heavy tasks on the two dies. Avoid them fighting over the cache.

[@LazyBonesWorking24x7]

As someone who already have purchased 12th gen it sucks that this won't be available for us early adopters. I am not sure any sort of pressure would work here as it appears that Intel is planning to use this as a selling point for 14 th gen

[@OGruurd]

Same, will get AMD after my 12600k dies

[@Splitemaster25]

​@@OGruurdSame to your same mate. PC prices are way to crazy to let this slide as a consumer.

[@hansolo631]

IDK guys. For the record I have a 7800x3d as I play VR racings sims, so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But you got the performance you wanted/expected when you bought your 12th/13th gens. If the company is going to continue development on their products, they need reimbursement for their work. If the point of the 14th gen is that now their E cores actually do something, then fair enough. They all do this. I have a feeling frame gen could be made to work on 2 and 3000 series RTX cards. AMD is apparently going to have it with no tensor cores at all or whatever the jazz is

[@OGruurd]

@@hansolo631 Wouldnt really matter to me tbh. I have a 3080 now, and Im not impressed by DLSS & RT at al. But I think your CPU, the 7800X3D, is by far the best for €$400. Intel wont come close soon I think, but we'll see.

[@thefeaj]

happy with my 7800x3d, no core issues whatsoever and no intel BS

[@Bluth53]

Simulations such as MSFS and DCS, as well as Racing Sims would highly benefit from CPU features as this

[@robgrenzeback3425]

what happened to the last video?

[@Babicoste]

Why'd you guys removed the 3600 vs i5 video?

[@alzarpomario889]

Wow, now you need an app to make the CPU work properly. So only Windows users running a 14th gen can benefit from this incredible feature. I hope this will be a pay feature in the next gen...maybe we can have an Intel app-store and you can unlock 10% more perf for 69.99$, 20% for 109.99 and 30% for 199.99.

[@TheSolheim]

The App is just for visual purpose, and to be able to turn the feature on/off.

[@XGlovesversionme]

Stop giving them ideas 😂

[@GoonyMclinux]

A handheld radio I bought had a pay to upgrade software feature........ I sent it back. 😂

[@alpha007org]

Intel already tried this back in the day. Google: "Intel Upgrade Service wiki"

[@TheHbk996]

STOP IT, maybe Nvidia will see this and implement it :D

[@overgaard1337]

AMD dual ccd 3d SKUs were heavily criticized for poor cache recognition. Thankfully, it's Intel

[@saricubra2867]

Lower end Big-Little like the i7-12700K doesn't have issues. Intel made the big mistake of reducing the percentage of p-cores for high end chips. The i9-13900K or 14900K are 33% P-cores vs 66% for the 12700K.

[@breakdown7553]

Bought a 13th gen this year may. I think this sealed it for me, that I am saying goodbye to Intel. I am still having issues with the e-cores in selected titles and also with some other programs. Seeing this now, that they worked on it but won't make it work for the 12th and 13th gen, actually has given me a reason now to say GG.

[@stanisawkowalski7440]

What titles and issues you have with e-cores?

[@jemborg]

This is why I went with AM5 for my gaming rig. I didn't want to run into any compatibility issues. Especially with older games, emulation and such. I just got a 7700 but I'm looking forward to the 8800X3d as I hear that generation will kick bottom.

[@haewymetal]

13600k since last year here, no issues with ecores. I wonder however if you set the ecores to a static 4ghz if that would offset the APO benefits.

[@lightward9487]

Hahaha, Sólo 14700k/kf y 14900k/kf yes 100%

[@Cuthalu]

​@@stanisawkowalski7440games generally run better without HT and E, and same applies for amd's SMT.

[@TalonsTech]

I looked at this feature a couple weeks ago. I can't think of any reason why this can't be enabled for 12th and 13th gen as well.

[@SB-pf5rc]

12600k owner. i'm so frustrated. big.Little has never delivered on the behavior they promised, and now i'm being locked out of the fix. forcing me over to windows11 was not a fix, it was just aggravation. i early adopted the new arch because i really wanted to use an optane accelerator. intel quietly software locked 12th gen out of optane support, so when i built my system i spent an hour poring through the bios trying to figure out how to get it running and wondering why intel's web instructions weren't working for me. overall it's been a pretty bad experience, and one intel curated for me. based on my 12600k experience i'll be very reluctant to adopt intel proprietary technologies in the future.

[@mroutcast8515]

That's how you sell refresh, by applying performance fix only to the refresh, but not the product that is refreshed.

[@Qyngali]

A comparison vs setting affinity would be nice, as that would set the game to use the P-cores, while the E-cores would be used for all other tasks on the system. Either manually or auto with Process Lasso or similar.

[@Raivo_K]

Also manually clocking e-cores to fixed higher frequency. Naturally this will increase the power draw but testing purposes it would be interesting to see if e-core OC + affinity could achieve similar results.

[@labombaromba]

I've seen people do basic testing of manually controlling affinity and comparing it to APO, and it doesn't seem like it comes close to APO. Steve actually says something similar himself right at the end of the video, that disabling the e-cores entirely doesn't seem to work as well.

[@niter43]

Intel probably does what you can't easily replicate -- assigns exact game threads to specific CPUs, not just whole process. That's why it works only with limited set of games -- manual tuning of what threads need to go where is needed.

[@Qyngali]

@@labombaromba disabling the E-cores would prevent the system from using them for other background tasks, so yeah. Setting affinity would allow them to be used for other things. Disabling them vs preventing the game from using them even though they are active isn't the same thing.

[@Qyngali]

@@niter43 sure, but testing something like PL's Efficiency Mode function would be interesting. I would test it myself but I don't have a Windows PC anymore, or a 12-14. gen Intel. :/

[@keyboard_g]

Requiring Bios AND driver is for sure only to prevent it working on 13th gen chips. Add on an additional Windows Store app is hilarious.

[@marcelo_alvarenga]

it is Working on my 13700k on a z690m board from asrock with the latest bios that also supports apo on 12 gen

[@aleksanderprohhorov9717]

Thank you Intel! My plans to spend money on newest Ryzen platform has just been improved 😉

[@Koozwad]

Reminds me of NVIDIA only putting Frame Generation on 40xx cards. They consciously made that decision.

[@Koozwad]

@JesusisLordSEEK AAAAAAAHHHHHH I THINK I'M GONNA... CONSOOOM

[@thealien_ali3382]

Technically Frame gen on 40xx cards has hardware that 30xx and 20xx does not have

[@Koozwad]

@@thealien_ali3382 Yes, because NVIDIA decided to do that. The question is, could they have avoided that if they wanted to, or did they just have maximum profits and disregard for consumers in mind?

[@karl5010]

@@Koozwad copium

[@Nintenboy01]

​@@Koozwadnot defending Nvidia, but if you don't know all the specifics of the faster optical flow accelerator in Ada Lovelace you can't really say older cards can handle FG well

[@The_Noticer.]

It doesn't make any sense to lock it to 14th gen. Noone buying a NEW platform is going to buy older hardware, and anyone already on, say, a 13900K isn't going to upgrade. So on the first customer they dont lose a sale, and on the second variety they dont lose a sale either. In fact, this might sour people's experience with the brand more and place them more favorably with competition. It's amazing to me how these tech PR types get handed a W by their amazing engineering team, and turn it into an L through sheer greed, without a fault.

[@Winnetou17]

Technically on the first customer, they could lose it, if the prices differ enough. I mean, without APO, 14th gen is basically 13th gen, especially for 14900K. If 13900K is $50 less, why would you get 14900K ?

[@NessNT]

It makes perfect sense. It's Intel. Where have you been the past few decades? Intel has been anti-consumer as long as possible, do you not know about being forced to upgrade to a new socket every year or upgrade? Miserable.

[@theftking]

This is why I'm stoked that AMD's new hybrid architecture uses the same instruction set on both big and little cores. Surely that'll be easier to manage...

[@saricubra2867]

Intel's P-cores and E-cores have the same instruction sets as well minus AVX512 which is kinda pointless. I used AI stuff that has AVX512 acceleration on my 2021 i7-12700K batch, the problem: it performs way worse than keeping all 12 cores enabled without AVX512.

[@THU31]

The small Zen Xc cores are still slower than the big ones, and the CPUs don't even have a hardware scheduler. They've already had issues with multiple CCDs, which are managed using their software. Hybrid architectures are just the worst thing for desktops. Completely pointless.

[@saricubra2867]

@@THU31 "hybrid architectures are the worst thing for desktops" No they are not. Steve from Gamer's Nexus showed perfomance per watt graphs for 10 years of i7s and the i7-12700K is by far the best.

[@saricubra2867]

@@THU31 The Ryzen 7 7xxx lineup with less cores and IPC than the i7-12700K get 20 degrees hotter. If you don't have Big-Little, more people would move to Apple Sillicon. Because the power draw and cooling for high end x86 is not practical.

[@THU31]

@@saricubra2867 Ryzen 7000 CPUs are hotter because they have smaller chips and a thicker IHS for cooler compatibility. They use a lot less power, especially in the high end. As for the other comment, I have no idea what you're saying. That a 10 nm CPU has better performance per watt than all the CPUs before it? Wow! By the way, I consider AMD CPUs with two chiplets as a hybrid architecture, because you have to manage thread allocation for optimal performance, and that's bad.

[@MGK195]

Intel becomes more and more like nvidia...

[@zodwraith5745]

And AMD. All 3 of them have pulled this shit. None of them are your friend.

[@MGK195]

@@zodwraith5745 nobody said something else.

[@andersjjensen]

They've always been like this. Intel has more class action lawsuits and EU anti-consumer fines than Nvidia.

[@nipa5961]

Intel did this already 25 years ago. Nvidia is just way worse now.

[@PatsyIsDrunk]

@@zodwraith5745 Yeah, none of them are your friend, but they still want to have sex with you, as long as you pay.

[@joxster1112]

Intel optimizing how e-cores are used after putting out 3 generations of CPUs, and then it's limited only to the latest gen and 2 games, lol

[@TheRogueWolf]

"Why would we fix the old thing when we can just get you to buy the new thing?" - Intel, if they were being honest

[@Matoro2002]

it's still funny to me how one of the few use cases for e cores near launch in gaming was emulating optimized ps3 games (as in games that utilized the cell processor's small cores) so not even an official release, but a community project for emulation

[@TheStateOfEarth]

When I built my new pc, I switched from intel to amd specifically because amd has shown more willingness to support their platform / socket for the long term. I had an lga 1511 board, but cpu compatibility was artificially limited by intel. It was shown that older boards could be modified to work with the late model cpus - even though intel said it couldn't be done lol. Intel could do this back in the day because amd couldn't offer meaningful competition with their am3 platform; but everything changed when the fire nation attacked... um am4 came out... Now both companies compete on performance & longevity , though only one company takes longevity seriously.

[@Solrac-Siul]

Going to give a partial answer to your question. Metro was selected because they wanted a "test bed" for single player games, and another for fast multiplayer games. The permisse was if it worked with metro it would work on others. One of our own games was considered briefly and may end up there in the future. That said I am not sure if it will work in the same manner with 12gen, as they have less e-cores. I think the reason why it has been limited to the 14900 and 14700 is due both having 10+ ecores, what allows the application to put 4 or 6 of those on gaming work and the remaing just handling very light background tasks. As such I also do not know how much of an increase it would provide to the 14600 or even most 13th. That said, in regards just the way it works, it is quite impressive and can see it being applied to other areas that not games. That said realistically it will be extremely difficult for intel to cover hundreds or thousands of games- would love that to be the case as someone working in the industry I can see an application of this nature as a very handy tool that could ease optimization work in games .

[@blerblybliggots9801]

This was one of the most informative and well thought out videos that I have seen from this channel.

[@QuentinStephens]

Great work; how can we help you bring APO to older CPUs?

[@ArmchairMagpie]

Intel should offer this new feature on a subscription base to be even more exclusive!

[@fracturedlife1393]

Hi, I represent Intel. Would you like a job? 😂😂😂

[@Zarkil]

I was getting ready to like your comment but then realized ceo's and cfo's probably don't understand sarcasm so here's a thumbs up 👍

[@haukionkannel]

For only $9.99 month you get boost to some of you game speeds! Sounds good! 😂😂😂

[@mlodin84]

So will Intel also cut application optimization support for 14th Gen when 15th Gen releases? Also the feature should be implemented at a framework/api/compiler level so that game developers can add the support.

[@Tuhar]

Great video - it is interesting that APO currently only works on a few games, it seems like putting the E-cores to work running background tasks would be something that you could handle at a windows-wide level, instead of a game-specific level. I'd be interested to see a follow-up, I know you guys and GN mostly stick to stock factory settings, but there are a lot of people out there who put in a lot of work to optimize the windows processes manually (people like @Savitarax here on KZbin - with things like process lasso and registry tweaks) that raise the question if similar gains can be had manually. Again, I think we could see a positive change if we had more hardware / game journalists would raise awareness of these types of issues, so I'm hopeful that you might follow-up on this. Either way, great content on APO, hopefully we see more advancements at an OS level, as both X3D owners and E-core owners could see these types of improvements from better OS scheduling at a core.

[@jussikankinen9409]

Or use laptop secondary

[@giff74]

Love your work and transparent reporting Steve! Getting tired of just getting screwed over by big companies. I get it, they have to make money, but vague answers and not covering all LGA 1700 CPUs seems just crazy.

[@gerald8289]

Yeah I think its basically forcing all backgorund interupts and small requests onto the E-cores. Where default is core0 for so many tiny windows tasks. I think there was a video I wachted a while ago that was a whole long process on how to do this. It was something to do with removing from P cores from the list of available threads it can use and then using process lasso to then manually asign your game to the now completely idle P cores. Something along those lines. I think this would be a really interesting thing for tech tubers to dive into and reverse engineer, since intel doesn't care about us.

[@PK-lk5gs]

Plausible idea. I wonder why all the p-cores stay at max frequency all the time while e-cores' frequencies fluctuate significantly? I don't really expect either of the games to load all 8 p-cores fully. Why do you think is that?

[@Sybertek]

Intel APO 1 star on the Microsoft store. Love it.

[@BSGNZ]

Hi guys, great video and info as always. I have a question for you and other followers though, has anyone NOT been getting notifications for hwub lately? This is the first notification I've had for a month or two.

[@scarter9447]

The os and game should already optimise for p and e cores. Is APO technically possible on 1700 and previous generation mobos or do they need a hardware implementation to make it work?

[@danielharvison7510]

Seems likely that it's software only, as APO was included in a bios update, and there aren't significant changes between 13th and 14th gen chips. On the other hand, hacking together something that requires a custom bios is probably a bit difficult to do. Not my area.

[@guinhill]

I wonder if you take an Application like Process Lasso ( paid software I'm afraid ) and use that to assign background tasks to the E cores, leaving the game to the P cores. And how that compares to the APO feature in 14th gen. The Trial is only limited by time, and I don't know if the features we would want to Use for this are available for free ( My gaming rig is Rysen, and my work 12th gen laptop is lacking in the GPU department )

[@elirantuil5003]

It will probably have an overhead which may or may not effect the result, but it's a cool idea.

[@pedro.alcatra]

I have a i7 12700 and limiting the acess of games to the ecores lower the performance this days. windows and apps can handle it pretty well

[@bruceharrisonjr.2634]

This is going to be one of those features that works better the less you need it. 1080p gaming on a top of the line system is a competitive benchmarking scenario, not an actual gaming scenario.

[@zodwraith5745]

I've been saying this for years. I understand them wanting to maximize singling out one component for testing, but in reality very few 4090 owners are playing at 1080p, and no one shopping for a $200 GPU is pairing it with a 7800 X3D/13900k. This falsely convinces the consumer that you need far more expensive hardware than reality. Rule number one in building PCs is to build _balanced_ systems so you're getting all the performance you paid for. Far too often I see one product being praised over another even though it's much more expensive because it performs well in unrealistic scenarios.

[@pyro226]

If support is added to more games, it's going to make a difference in the long term. Think like 6+ years from now, but by then, the people buying E CPU cores will have likely already moved onto newer generations (assuming Intel makes even modest improvements between CPU generations).

[@mhammadalloush5104]

@@zodwraith5745 An argument for pairing a 200$ GPU with a 7800X3D/13900k is a CPU bound productivity focused build. Sure the 200$ GPU might not be able to take advantage of said CPU, but if working and playing on the same PC I'd much rather not spend another ~300$ (not to mention extra accessories) on top of what I paid for the initial 7800x3d/13900k. Granted such scenarios are a niche, but a system lopsided towards the CPU can make a lot of sense unlike a graphically lopsided one

[@bruceharrisonjr.2634]

@@pyro226 show me gains in 1440p and 4K where averages and 1% lows are good but not great. These are useful gain to gamers. +30% at 1080p when you already get 400 FPS is just for benchmarking scores.

[@jasonhurdlow6607]

That will change when you slap a 5090 or 6090 into the system though, putting the onus back on the CPU to generate scene data fast enough. Today's 1080p is yester-year's 640 x 480, and tomorrow's 4k. So I'd say it still matters.

[@jayhsyn]

Did you find it complicated to install on the dark hero ? Because it’s definitely not as easy as installing the driver and enabling DTT in bios as I’ve done that and it still doesn’t work

[@1BlinkwithAngels82]

Would like to point out that I've seen a few games utilize the 7950X3D in similar ways to APO enabled (utilizing all X3D cores and a couple non-X3D cores but legitimately providing a perf. benefit) and it provided better performance than any combination of cache preferred, project lasso, game bar, CCD disabled, etc. A little bit unfortunate (but also cool?) that the best performance with these heterogenous chips may be somewhat complicated in that it uses all P/X3D cores and then uses a few E/non-X3D cores for smaller tasks.

[@williamrutter3619]

Very interesting, shame about the support for previous generations, I have been thinking this would come from the start. I would be interested how this works on the other 14th gen CPUs.

[@damara2268]

APO is useless anyway because only two games can get it working and in order to make it work you have to hack around with some questionable software from intel. It will be useful only if it can work with any modern game.

[@elirantuil5003]

​@@damara2268it probably will, the reasons for these games being the first can be as stupid as these games being the lead dev's favorite. Companies are made of people, and some of them are strange nerds. Having worked at big tech you'd be very much surprised at how these decisions are made sometimes.

[@stiegelzeine2186]

@@damara2268 the app is only used to activate and deactivate it, you can also just enable it in bios and it will just work, why would intels software be any different than amd? Both just sell you processors and want money, they don’t spy on you or anything else

[@xthelord1668]

based on the look intel is probably improving cache hit ratio on P cores by offloading more lower priority tasks onto E cores while cleaning up data for P cores making them do less filtering and effectively increasing the amount of cache game can utilize which increases performance and lowers power consumption by a bit and this does not stop there because increased hit ratio means less activate commands towards memory and with it less memory latency penalty which in normal terms means that intel could have done this for both 12th and 13th gen users but refuses to because this way they force people to look to buy 14th gen so it doesn't become another 11th gen fiasco

[@heickelrrx]

12th gen have ringbus issue with eCore so 12th gen excluded have some sense 13th on the other hand, have no issue

[@xthelord1668]

@@heickelrrx ring bus issue should not prevent intel from releasing this fix because this fix would probably have a larger impact on 12th gen than 13th gen, if anything this is just sad that intel looks to shoot their previous gen products into foot just because their newest stuff failed to meet expectations

[@alpha007org]

We have 4 clusters of e-cores. 4x4=16. And it seems only one e-core per cluster is doing most of the work.

[@nepnep6894]

​@@xthelord1668on 12th gen it would regress performance. The "ring bus issue" is that the ring/L3 downclocks by about 1ghz when the E cores unpark.

[@xthelord1668]

@@nepnep6894 because of stability issues right? well thats a bummer then cause 12th gen is not that old

[@Snoopmasta]

Interesting was also the lesser power usage with APO enabled. Could this rise in efficiency also be basis for a test?

[@stiegelzeine2186]

It would be unfair to test it without because after all it’s a major selling point that Intel has efficiency cores and this feature makes use of them If anyone tests it without then he should also test amds CPUs without 3d cache

[@JohnEllisIII]

What this would be a slam dunk for is Applications. I use Revit on a 12th gen mobile and noticed very random inconsistencies with performance. It’s probably half intel and half Dell though.

[@remidee7276]

This anti-consumer practice is the reason I'm happy with Ryzen sweeping the floor with Intel in a lot of ways.

[@samgoff5289]

And when amd do anti consumer shit? All companies are trash imo

[@erichall090909]

AMD is hardly customer friendly

[@prozoomy3588]

Amd is just as bad as Intel.

[@nipa5961]

Very true. But I expect AMD to do the same now they outclass Intel so heavily. They are just companies. They are only customer friendly if there is competition.

[@Zack-fu8sn]

Thanks intel. As an owner of 13th gen, I'll make sure to keep this in mind when I build my next system.

[@ranixcz4087]

What is apo just optimalized process lasso program made by intel ?

[@alexguild]

Wow! Thank you

[@mkill73]

Im so happy with my 7800x3d. One chip only no latency and no trouble with cores in win 11. And less power than Intel.

[@stiegelzeine2186]

Less power?good joke mate amd CPUs consume more power than Intel thanks to its efficient cores

[@ShimaS-0079]

​@@stiegelzeine2186really , i woukd like to know. What is your sources

[@roccococo2498]

@@stiegelzeine2186 My 7800x3d did not exceed 80W in full load and 50-60 W while gaming. Maybe you should stop living in the past and check the benchmarks on this channel.

[@mkill73]

@@stiegelzeine2186 My old Intel I7 6700K consumed 90-95 watts. My 7800x3d consumes 79-83 watts with all threads load. Then combined with a 4080 that consumes max 320 watt but mostly around 280 watt. And new Intel 320 watt, MEGA-LOL! You need to come back to reality dude.

[@adi_1706]

@@stiegelzeine2186 Prove your claims shintel fanboy

[@interceptor001]

A test on the lower end cpus will be interesting when they are released.

[@jessefisher1809]

Will they be supported though? 14600k isn't even supported right now. Would a 14100 or 14400 ever be supported? idk.

[@interceptor001]

@@jessefisher1809 Good questions. I suspect (correct me if I am wrong) but the improvements there would be the most significant.

[@jessefisher1809]

@@interceptor001 Yeah I don't know. dlvr is more effective on the lower end. 14600k is faster and cooler than the 13600k while using less power, higher end is more tapped out which is why I was surprised to hear they are going for a 14900ks. As for APO I don't really know enough about it to say.

[@interceptor001]

@@jessefisher1809 Where have you read that intel uses dlvrr on 14gen? Last I checked they where not.

[@jessefisher1809]

@@interceptor001 There's not exactly documentation on it. I only brought it up because I thought maybe thats what you were thinking about. Somehow 14600k is able to regulate voltage better.

[@ionamygdalon2263]

Do you think Mods will be able to allow for APO in older games?

[@Veptis]

Does Power efficiency also improve turbo headroom?

[@tomaspostorivo]

Thanks intel. I upgraded my 3700x for a 13700 because prices for AM5 in my country are crazy. I remember why I picked AMD the first time with my 1700x after selling my I5 6500

[@ismaelsoto9507]

The new Intel system was cheaper than getting a R7 5800X3D? Or you needed the extra gaming performance + productivity?

[@tomaspostorivo]

@@ismaelsoto9507 my x370 was getting old and the 5800X3D is almost out of stock in my country, so the price is incredibly high

[@womz8203]

I'm an Intel shareholder and bought a 13700K bundle a month ago just before 14th gen came out (it was heavily discounted) and if Intel isn't going to release APO for 12th and 13th gen then this will be my last Intel CPU until they get their act together. I'll probably also sell my shares as I can't stand behind a company that doesn't support existing customers for a reasonable period of time (same reason why I wouldn't buy a Sony camera as they almost never give firmware updates).

[@BleedForTheWorld]

I love how people that don't work and receive from the backs of those who produce within the company come to tech channels and try to appear like they're doing everyone a favor

[@duckilythelovely3040]

You should rerun the starfield benchmarks with some cpus if you have time and feel like it. Due to the massive cpu update for the game. Be interesting to see how amd and intel stack up for it.

[@yukiseekyo]

i dont have those games on Linux but im sure you can have the same behavior by locking the P cores in WINE using an environmental variable and it does give a better boost VS just disabling the E-Cores on Linux and the Frame time is a lot higher VS just disabling it or just Disabling E-cores. I think the same solution can be done with the 5900X3D and the other one that has the 3d v-cache on a Node

[@JonathanSias]

Linux user here on AMD (no3d), so theoretical for me, but how would one do this?

[@yukiseekyo]

@@JonathanSias you just add WINE_CPU_TOPOLOGY=4:0,1,2,3 %command% in the run command of the game that you want to play. The 4 is the amount of cores you want to use and the numbers after is the location of the cores starting from 0 for core 1. So if you want to you can also disable hyperthreading by either skiping ever other number eg: 0,2,4,6 or skip the other half 0,1,2,3. E cores are usually the latter number of cores and AMD x3d should be either the first half or the latter half. EDIT: i forgot to mention that if you want to be always be running on Proton games/Steam on linux games you just need to add WINE_CPU_TOPOLOGY=4:0,1,2,3 to the /etc/environment in a new line as sudo/root

[@jjlw2378]

Definitely shitty that Intel is preventing APO for 12th/13th gen. Seems like such a great and easy way to garner goodwill from consumers. However, I dont really feel like I'm missing out on anything because I dont play Metro EE or RB6 anymore. Hopefully, Intel can perfect APO and it will include a long list of new games when 15th gen launches. Could be a really cool feature someday.

[@skydrake1833]

They neither care about nor want your goodwill, they want you to shell out $$ for their latest 'product'!

[@MrJohannson]

As if they needed it. People will still lap up Intel CPUs and defend their irrational choice by shittalking Ryzen

[@kuruptzZz]

​@@skydrake1833 Well they should, because brand loyalty is a real thing. And AMD is a legit competitor. I know people who have "switched sides" in recent years

[@jessefisher1809]

@@MrJohannson They do need it. Intel is facing financial uncertainty. Though I don't think 14th gen is as bad as everybody else. I mean now you get 13900k performance for i7 prices... good for everyone with lga1700 that didn't already have a 13900k imo.

[@lldjslim]

I see alot of hating on Intel, because if AMD were doing this, they would be getting awarded for it just like they did with MANTLE which did not deliver the performance frames in games that it was hyped up to be. The double standards that exist in the PC ecosystem just completely blows my mind, and it needs to stop. Both companies have F'up and screwed the consumers and gamers over with shady business practices, and when they get exposed, they both should be getting called out and not one getting bashed and the other one getting a free pass

[@Verpal]

Intel thought they are being smart at cutting cost by not including 12/13th gen, not realizing the extreme limitation will only make people cross APO out as a legitimate feature, who knows whether 14th gen will continue getting supported? Or the moment 15th gen come out, no more new game support for 14th gen?

[@kundalinikova392]

looks like they will be implementing it in 12'th and 13'th gen thanks to public blowback.

[@dividead100]

I'm really curious as to how it works and if the only reason it needed to be done in bios is so that 12 and 13 gen aren't supported.

[@1SaG]

Hmm... just checked MSI's support page for my Z690 Tomahawk DDR4 and the latest BIOS description says "APO function optimized"... implying that it had been supported before? Currently running the 7D32v1E which was released mid September and the latest version they offer is 7D32v1F, released on Nov 7th. Not sure if I need APO, but is it just the BIOS flash that's required?

[@barbusbogdan7]

Oh yes. Anti consumer practices. Got to love them. This just motivates me to keep running my old systems without upgrading as long as i can Edit: so i don't need to buy from those greedy companies...

[@williampinnock2256]

Thanks Intel! Provide cores we constantly have to worry about having on or off and then dump on the early adopters. Still at least 14th gen now has a distinguishing feature...

[@Riztard]

*gen 13.5

[@captainheat2314]

14th gen is slightly overclocked 13th gen

[@dqpowered]

​@@Riztard, I wouldn't even call it 13.5, but rather 13.1. 🙃

[@idontneedthis66]

One additional test that I think would be interesting would be running the games with APO disabled while setting the CPU affinity on the game process to only allow running on P-cores, either through Process Lasso or just manually changing via Task Manager. In theory that approach could provide a working optimization for 12th and 13th gen CPU owners who Intel is leaving out to dry with APO. I suspect it may still not be quite as good, as CPU Affiniity only affects the running game process but the GPU driver code may still run on E-cores, but even still may be an improvement over nothing at all.

[@Adel-sj4ue]

I dont understand Does apo avilable on z690 motherboards??? But it only work wutg 14th gen cpu Or it will only be avilable on z790 And only support 14th geb

[@SentaDuck]

Considering 13th and 14 gen are the same, I'm sure someone from the 'community' will find a way to make it work on 12th and 13th gen.

[@50H3i1]

Last video got nuked

[@MrReese]

Congratulations on 1M subs :). Well deserved for sure. I did not even know APO was a thing before watching this video. And yeah, Intel being Intel...when will they learn, it's really sad.

[@Mogalize]

Are they any programs that utilize the new APO? Only seen reports on the games. Thanks!

[@WilliamOwyong]

APO whiffs a little of their "Intel on Demand" idea. Like Unity, there may be one or more board members somewhere in Intel that has been clinging onto this notion for years (decades?) waiting to re-release it with a different spin.

[@RobBCactive]

Intel have always segmented their CPUs with special paid for features on few models. In a year they'll bring out a new architecture and people can forget APO support for 14th.

[@50H3i1]

I wish you tested lowest end 14 gen cpu (14600) to see how much that cpus gains performance cause 14900k is a beast itself . Anyway thanks for the video

[@CesarinPillinGaming]

I wonder.. if you could somehow fool the program, aka obsfuscate a core 13th Gen to appear as 14th gen.. Would be able to run APO and GET benefits? Reminds me when some stuff from Nvidia was locked to Nvidia only hardware via chip ID.

[@Crossfire2003]

Great video!

[@valentin3186]

Buy 14th Gen find out??? IMC WORSE than 13th? Hahaha E-cores a joke, efficiency a joke, price a joke, ILM a joke. They need to feature 64 e-cores next gen with a refreshed silicon P-cores. The Ultimate joke

[@Carstuff111]

I have to say, when it comes to game play, the higher averages are cool and all, but higher 1% and 0.1% numbers impress me more. I rather see the raw power of a system provide the smoothest, most stable lows over having the highest averages. Those times where a system plays a game at high average FPS but dips often hurts more than one at a lower average frame rate that doesn't dip at all. I tend to ignore most of the average numbers to focus on what the worst I can expect will be. The higher those low numbers are, the happier I am. Raw FPS is cool and all, but it has to be stable. I am impressed with how much APO helped to bolster the 1% low numbers, not just the averages.

[@TheBURBAN111]

been waiting for this test haha

[@burnsyd17]

Haven't looked in the Windows Store as I don't have a 14thgen. Win11 only? Or win10 too?

[@Coliflower185]

intel pulling an Nvidia

[@stealthhunter6998]

I appreciate that the metro exodus devs seem to implement the latest technologies around in their games all the time even if they r years old. Then there’s games like Jedi survivor that doesn’t have basic support.

[@iyke8913]

My big issue is why that application is needed in the first place. If the E-cores are just being used in in a smarter way, why not just make this the default behavior (only toggle in bios is needed, if even that).

[@marcelo_alvarenga]

APO working on my 13700k on a z690m riptide d5 board from asrock with the latest bios that also supports apo on 12 gen

[@abo30.06]

Time to swap to Ryzen

[@rexomi17]

why? Are they charitable company?

[@ulamss5]

As if AMD didn't just try to pull the same shit 2 years ago.

[@Robspassion]

Can 12th Gen + 13th Gen owners try to replicate these results by using project Lasso? You can force all background tasks to use E-cores only and limit any game to only use the P- Cores (+HT).

[@cicciomessere4912]

Hi Steve, does APO works also in productivity workloads that rely on P-cores?

[@pixels_per_inch]

No, the point of APO is to limit games that don't scale beyond 6-8 cores to P cores. Productivity will most likely benefit from the extra performance of E cores so it would actually decrease performance.

[@GULIwer1980]

Wonder would extra performance on i5 show up, once/if they allow it.

[@JayzBeerz]

APO now works on 12th and 13th Gen you’re welcome.

[@saricubra2867]

I don't need it for my i7-12700K. 8 perfomance cores and 4 efficency. It's more of a streaming beast for a game, because for vainilla gaming stuff it's overkill (very stable frametimes, specially for the most CPU intensive console emulators).

[@demrasnawla]

This is like if Nvidia released a frame generation feature and didn't enable it on their 6 month old $2000 3090Ti, glad that didn't happen 😅

[@kuruptzZz]

Nvidia frame gen needs specific hardware - flow accelerators, which they have only developed in RTX 40 series GPUs. Frame gen presents plenty of problems (like artifacts and input lag) if not used in the ideal circumstances...and even an RTX 3090 ti does not have what it takes

[@garrettkajmowicz]

What do developers need to do in order to enable Application Optimization?

[@Demxx666]

Would love to see the newly added apo titles tested