Too Many Kids Go To College

A part of the Chicago Ideas Week, this debate is the first Intelligence Squared U.S. debate to be held live in Chicago. The herd mentality that assumes college is the only path to reaching one's full potential is under fire. Student loan debt has surpassed credit card debt, unemployment for those with bachelor's degrees is at an all-time high, and entrepreneurs like the founders of Facebook and Microsoft prove that extraordinary success is possible without it. But recent studies show that college is economically beneficial even to those whose jobs don't require it. Is it still the best way to ensure social mobility, or is America's love affair with higher education unjustified?
For: Peter Thiel
For: Charles Murray
Against: Vivek Wadhwa
Against: Henry Bienen
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[@slappy8941]

Most college degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on, especially anything with "studies" in the description.

[@sleepcity]

Peter Thiel makes a number of excellent points. I enjoyed the contributions all of the speakers made to this debate but when Thiel spoke I couldn't help but feel like he was reading my mind. This comes from a 28 year-old American who is in the middle of his first bachelor's degree at a state university. Nearly every one of my friends attended expensive private colleges and are now saddled with obscene debts. Most of them aren't working a career path, they're working in the service industry.

[@cramsa]

1/2 of the 4 years in college are a waste of time... the real time taken to learn most majors is about 1-2years max IF you had year round schooling.

[@jasonpatrickries]

The guys supporting education make some valid points but they definitely lose the debate because almost completely ignore the 1.2 trillion dollar elephant in the room, our debt fire diploma system. Isn't the current pay to pay educational model the biggest reason for the debate to begin with?

[@Yewon2001]

I'm in school again doing a career change. It's shocking how the hard sciences and liberal arts sections of colleges are totally different worlds. I have to take some liberal arts colleges unfortunately this semester and I can honestly feel my brain deteriorating in them. That being said distance learning is not for me. I need that classroom environment for some reason.

[@timothykennedy4061]

Knowledge/Education is important we should always strive to learn, the concern and problems is that costs and time play huge roles in why college is a nightmare to kids and why it is becoming an issue. A major point that I have yet to hear is that colleges require extra courses that are not beneficial to the learning process of the students desired major but they still have to sit in class that they not only have to pay for but they waste moments of time that could be spent creatively doing something that might be more productive. I plan to transfer from my community college to a 4 year very soon, I am a Computer Engineer and I can honestly say that my 2 years their have been very beneficial to me but I have wasted probably half of it in classes that not only didn't teach me anything but wasted my time as well as more money having to drive to the university for those classes that aren't benefiting me. Also what does a degree say about someone, My parents had money to send me, I got a full ride, or maybe I did this on my own through work and loans. My point being that it could be any one of these but you will never know because it doesn't state that on the degree all that it says is you passed a bunch of test that are supposed to be about your major that you could of guessed your way through considering most test are multiple choice. College may be important to some people, but it hasn't been around forever and we made progress, what makes it important now?

[@michaeladams7278]

Expanded upon this notion. Before the "education bubble" college was a place reserved for those in the pursuit of academia; those who had a thirst for knowledge who genuinely enjoyed learning and debating writings of great philosophers such as Plato or Aristotle. Gone are the colleges of previous generations which provided students with tools to further their own interests in areas such as philosophical and political rhetoric, replaced with a system that requires students to merely skate by for a piece of paper. Now I am most certainly not implying that those who graduate from even this broken college system we have do not leave with a higher level of critical thinking or knowledge. The point is, within the context of the debate question presented that, what is gained in this antiquated system is more often a right of passage rather then an applicable education. This creates the viscous cycle that many kids fall into. The notion of "I don't particularly care to pursue "knowledge"--

[@rustincohle3908]

Loved this debate. It got a little heated which you don't see too often. Amazing insight on both sides. I love how Peter Thiel kept his composure and was very clean & concise.

[@jesperburns]

US education system is the best in the same way your healthcare is. The elite hospitals and universities are great, but your average is *well* below that of the rest of the first world.

[@MugenTJ]

As a teacher, I got to say the truth is not many people were fit to move passed high school with adequate understanding to do well in college. The large number of unfit students actually dilutes the quality of education (on the basis of funding and rigor). On the other hand, not every job requires a college education.

[@cecilhenry9908]

Not a debate about costs????? That statement right there shows the bias and insularity of the educator, who benefits by promoting education BUT doesnt bear responsibility for the cost.

[@jeffreycordova9082]

I agree that everyone should make an effort to become educated, in whatever field they are interest in, but I do not agree that college is currently the best means to that end. Information is instantly accessible for virtually everyone in the US. Why should I pay tens of thousands of dollars for information that's freely available online? I'd rather intern in the field I'm interested in and supplement that with personal research. It's simply more efficient.

[@DecendKnightsofmalta]

great moderator, kept everybody on point all night, wonderful speakers, enjoyed every minute.

[@keithboyd161]

1% of the population are trades people??? There are more truck drivers then nurses. Water and sewer by itself employs more people then primary education does. One single trade is bigger then education. There are more mechanics of all the hundreds of kinds of just mechanic then all police and military combined. About 30% of the population is blue collar. Another 20% is low skill menial stuff. 20% government 20% white collar and 10% academia/intellectuals. Of all this about 30% of jobs actually need education higher then high school.

[@doctorwilly]

I think Taiwan serves as a curious case. The culture highly values education like most Asian counties and the high school students are pretty strong academically, as evidenced by top scores in international math and science exams. Society has such a huge appetite for higher education, the number of schools, both public and private exploded to the point of excess capacity. Pretty much everyone in the millennial generation can go to college, unless he or she refuses to. With college degree as a requirement for most jobs, most people did attend college. However our economy has not prospered by leaps and bounds compared to he last generation, when there were fewer seats for college. In fact Our wage stagnation is arguably the worst in Asia. Most of our industries weren't more competitive. Having college CS students that compete in the top tiers of the prestigious ACM programming competition every years, I am actually appalled at the state of our software industry - zero presence in the international stage. One of my fav author once suggested that the arrow of causation is reversed in most studies - economic prosperity created more education as opposed to more eduction creating more economy prosperity. In the case of Taiwan's stagnation, the country definitely did not lack an educated work force, but many other ingredients of a successful economy: an entrepreneurial culture that is bold on creating something that's never been done before as opposed to copying successful business models from the west or Japan; more investors that are willing to take the risks of moonshot ventures; corporate cultures and managers that empower individuals and values openness of discussion instead of obedience. ... etc Having seen students in 2nd or 3rd tier schools that just want a degree but the market does have enough positions for them to do meaningful work like R&D, they graduate doing low value added tasks. I am convinced a 4 year program isn't the best investment for everyone's time. Our education system should be better or at least minimize the cost of going through a college program.

[@JFCotman]

Though I'm on Peter's side [too many go to college] I have to admit the merits of the opposition. BIG industries require a post secondary education for what I call a 'growth degree' in fields like Engineering and programming. Though you can learn these WITHOUT college, via personal research, you then need a tight career plan to break into those markets without that piece of paper. I think that alternative is being overlooked. We need businesses that help those with skills who couldn't afford BIG colleges to compete. I know as an employer I'd LOVE to hire someone who DOESN'T have a big degree, but can still program.

[@kwameagyapong6728]

Peter Thiel made comments that I am facing today. I was perfectly fine with a two year chemistry education but i was persuaded to finish a four year uni as well. I found it hard getting a job after finishing four year college than when i had lesser number of years.

[@PaulRoneClarke]

Listens to this as he sifts through around 50 resume's for tech/coding position for the one person who has relevant none-negotiable degree level skill set - amongst the 49 others. So many of these others have such a narrow skill set; "Sociology", "Psychology", "Art History" or "Gender Studies" degrees account for more than half the resume's I'm looking at. I wish this was an exaggeration. 49 or so bits of paper headed for the bin. 49 disappointments. Why are we producing so very many young people with such a narrow focussed skill set in fields that are already swamped with unemployed graduates?

[@henrycorso8691]

Peter is nice and good at talking and debate, but the guy Vivek Wadhwa, is sort of a troll, the type of guy I'm right your wrong, who think all he say is excellent and the only true, and the rest of the world are morons, is very horrible to hear him.

[@davidtrujillo993]

Two comments, first, can you believe that the guys arguing for skilled workers and their dignity are the libertarian/conservatives. Secondly, very simple imagine everyone had a college degree, now would our life be better or not? I say obviously not. We can all have degrees, but we can't all have jobs related to that degree. Secondly what problem do we solve by having all people with degrees? None, nada zero, in fact, perhaps things would be worse, disappointment would be off the roof.

[@AkshayrajKore]

Peter Thiel was the most convincing speaker at this panel.

[@hamids4550]

%90 of the issue is the costs. And almost all companies want bachelor degree and above.

[@napat9]

1:05:00 Is he assuming every person who pursues a start-up or does not complete college have no ability and opportunity to build networking skills? Going to college creates more opportunity for building networking skills but ultimately depends on the person..

[@emailpreet]

Its the bandwagon effect (students impulsively doing what others say or do), that's root of the problem. Saying that one should enroll for a 4 year course in college to figure out what he wants to do in life is obnoxious. Reforms focusing on creating a framework which can help a student find the right motivation which undergirds his decision are important as this would become a leap forward in the bigger picture of life.

[@tatem8368]

Just a little thought about the title of the debate " Too Many Kids Go To College", seems a little misleading isn't it? I think it should be re-titled as " Too Many Kids Go To College FOR THE WRONG REASONS ".

[@KwameSenecaLP]

I am dumb founded. Employers have looked past me following my graduation from a four year college and years of work experience.

[@sarahblub5371]

Intelligence Squared is one of the only shows I enjoy on TV today. I hope it lasts for a very long time.

[@RandomDudegimme]

funny how the american inteligence squared debates are "over explained" at the start compared to the other debates around the world.

[@xchromehearxt8838]

1:33:56 "silly little social media" face-palms.

[@teeKayNW]

College = debt slavery, but I got to a Community College so it's not too bad :D On the other hand, I see another problem of prestige in colleges. UCs, Ivy League, State Universities, and Private Colleges all have a certain aura of snobbery. For instance, I hear this among my friends who goes to a "prestiges UC," "Oh you got to a Community College? You must not be very bright and your future is not bright." Lol. I admit my grammar and vocabulary isn't too good since my first language isn't English, but I can clearly see the arrogance, snobbery, and the "prestige" that is heavily marketed onto people in California. Pathetic. I will go to a Ivy league when I'm ready to go to an Ivy league. I'm twenty with an open mind and a thirst for "real" education.

[@viveannejoh]

do not let your schooling get in the way of your education..... Mark Twain

[@chiyerano]

The U.S. has some of the best COLLEGE education systems in the world, not public K-12 grade school education which is actually downright terrible in some parts of the U.S..

[@michaeladams7278]

In the traditional sense, that is not applicable to my field of interest...but society tells me I must have this piece of paper that deems me worthy by an employer who will ultimately provide the necessary training for my respective field. Thus providing the argument for the affirmative which was touched upon in the debate but never elaborated on, that too many kids go to college today for the wrong reasons. It's is no longer about the quality of the education but rather a box to check of to become employable. In summation I am very disappointed with the quality of this debate with regards to the resolve in question.

[@bigchunk1]

1:06:26 I think the panel for the motion loses some big points here in the debate answering this question. The against panel jumps in at just the right time to point out a core motive. That said, I think the panel for the motion won whole handedly. Higher education should be optional. College Debt is disgusting.

[@reardelt]

That's right. If you are already prescribing a patient a bad drug, you don't solve the problem by giving more of the bad drug. You fix the education system by fixing k12 and not more of college.

[@costakeith9048]

The university system created credentialism in this country and now it's using credenitalism to justify their own existence. If this circular argument holds water for these supposedly educated academics, it only goes to show how poor our education system has become. I will concede that education is a good, but it does not follow from that that the university system or credentialism are good. The medieval university system does still work within the parameters it was developed, for wealthy individuals for whom the cost of attending these universities is nominal it's a reasonable means to pursue an education (though whether you'll actually get an education, as opposed to a mere credential, depends on the individual). But there are many other alternatives for education across the spectrum ranging from self-study to private tutors. The university education system should be superseded by an exam system for degrees. Make the exams hard enough that they ensure a comprehensive understanding of the field, they can even be multi-day exams, but allow anyone to sit for them, university educated or otherwise. There can still be universities, but simply graduating from a university shouldn't be enough, you should still have to pass the exams. In this way we can separate the credentials from the university system and allow people to obtain the requisite knowledge required to pass their exams at the pace and using the methods most suited to their situation in life.

[@somniumai]

@elesparto I can't speak for everyone who goes to Ivy league schools, but a lot of individuals who go there end up being down to earth. I mean a lot of people at Ivy league schools are rather poor since the schools provide huge financial aid so its actually easier to go to Harvard than it is to go to a state school for a poorer individual.

[@Eric-il7tk]

Going to college and getting a degree, in anything, is not always the definition of success for some people. Maybe all I want to do in life is be a farmer or a painter. Maybe all I want to do is be a classy prostitute. It's all about being happy in what you do and not what everyone else thinks is best for your life. Some of the richest people on this planet are the most depressed.

[@michaeladams7278]

Interesting how the debate spun wildly off topic. The question was simply do too many kids go to college which interestingly turned into a topic of discussion about the fallacy of the secondary education. The question at hand is not should less Americans receiver higher education, or how can we revamp the entire system to become more relevant in today's world; but rather do we currently funnel too many 18 year olds to the outdated, antiquated system that is our 4 year university's. To this I would agree and take side in the affirmative. We too often see (I as a recent college graduate of a non Ivey league "first tier public university" can personally speak to) that the norm for middle class Americans is to attend a 4 year university, not in the pursuit of knowledge but in fact for that mythical piece of paper that shows employability. I feel as though the team arguing the affirmative tried to make this point but became distracted with the rhetoric of educational reform and thus never

[@cecilhenry9908]

An educator who pushes education---- but no one challenges the conflict of interest.' And the opportunity cost, and assumption of equality of outcome. It is impossible for one to understand something when his income depends on NOT understanding it.

[@moribguy5826]

Those who argue for more and longer education are as seen here, have vested interests but they miss the main point that there are just too many graduates in BA not in science and engineering. The migrant debater had made it just like Steve Job or Jack Ma had achieved whereas he had not argue on the point raised by Murray!

[@JFCotman]

Proven College Alternatives Career launching [screw school, go get started doing what you'd like] Self Education Internships etc

[@farquezy]

@sleepcity I agree. The problem is that he is focusing on the wrong things. Everything he says indicate the failure of society and current college system, not that too many people attend college. What he said makes me think there should be a drastic change in paradigms, not less people getting an education

[@hongyelim9233]

Peter Thiel is amazing!

[@joshv06]

16:48 Ron Pual??

[@Michael-xv1gn]

Both sides did a wonderful job and made very compelling arguments. I myself am still undecided, and I think we might take from both sides and reach a kind of comprise, which for the record I think they did there at the very end. I also think that everyone agreed, including myself, that the bigger issue is not the question of whether too many kids go to college, but has to deal with the social and economic structures that make up our American education system. i think both sides agree there should be reform, and both sides agree that education (whatever form it takes) is still greatly beneficial, if not necessary, for living a successful and fulfilling life, and for continuing to stay competitive on the global market, and here I think the disagreements are minor when compared to that. The question now remains, where do we go from here?

[@DanielPage]

I guarantee this debate would have been extremely interesting if they did it today.

[@ericarmstrong3313]

The against side keeps putting up the straw man, i.e. the BS is valuable, but the issue is whether the BA is valuable.

[@lysol5555]

better alternative to college: 1. To find out your career path- volunteer, it's free and it's hands on experience, much better than reading a book or talking to another 18 years old who is just as clueless 2. To learn critical thinking skills- Buy Being Logical: A Guide to Good Thinking- 10 dollars on Amazon, HIGHLY recommend it, or borrow it from your local library

[@theprogressivecynic2407]

This is one wierd case where both sides have a point: Too many people go to ACADEMIC college, while too few have a higher education at a technical college. Ideally, we would send the most intelligent and motivated students to academic colleges with a full ride, while giving everybody who isn't interested in academics and simply wants to learn a trade or have a higher-education experience (everybody who went to college knows a lot of these people) to a technical college where they exit with knowledge of a skill, good job prospects, and low (if any) debt. P.S. Using IQ as a selection tool is absolute BS, and I say this as a person who has a 149 IQ thus would greatly benefit from such a standard.

[@blazinggllama8974]

Since only just a little over 20% of jobs in America require a college degree why is this even a debate? Of course to many kids are going to college that's why you see unemployment college grads with worthless degrees & huge student Loan debt because government is enabling it with student loans! If you deserve a good college job then you will pay your way threw college no problem from your hard work ethic why is government enabling lazy people to go to college without proving there work ethic & also these loans are bankrupting our country & causing tuition prices to sky rocket! Moral arguments are moronic facts don't care about your feelings. We let anybody go to college now & look what it's done we have over a trillion dollars in student Loan debt because the jobs are already taken

[@alotan2acs]

Shit, I wish Ken Robs was here to slap these guys around a little

[@scotthix2926]

In general, i think they should get rid of the undecided vote. I could be 95% option one but see some validitiy in option 2 and thus I would choose option 3. However, I would probably voice option 1 in the final vote because it was what I agree with. I think this could skew the results. Love the debates though

[@zach988888]

Blame the space race for the spark of the caste system. Nobody but the inspired did the jobs they were inspired to do before that, nobody was forced to pick a path before their inspiration.

[@fiscalcpiano]

1:07:40 "I think" "I think" "but but but but but but" "I think" at least 8 times. Kinda funny when he got in that pickle.

[@r.b.4611]

Got to say I line up with Charles Murray very tightly. "Where our guests address eachother directly"...through the moderator... Also Vivek would be way more convincing if he shut up while other people were talking and rebutted them clearly afterwards. Ah the moderator is stopping related questions about who should go to college and corruption I see. Suspect.

[@RyanLeeAllred]

This moderator is so biased.

[@magnusqwerty]

Students with IQ