Internal vs. External Rotation (Weightlifting vs. CrossFit)

Should you internally or externally rotate the shoulders when the bar is overhead?
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[@celk2013]

Incredible, a fitness KZbinr who does his research, and considers both sides of the argument without calling the other side an idiot. Thanks for the great video, and continue making good content coach ZT.

[@dickpiano1802]

Weightlifting is not fitness. It's a sport.

[@rye-bread5236]

Its science and hardwork above all else though.

[@dickpiano1802]

Its a sport

[@mushie1221]

and yet, fitness arrives as a result.

[@personperson9591]

"Physical fitness is a state of health and well-being and, more specifically, the ability to perform aspects of sports, occupations and daily activities." I'm not really sure what the point you're getting at is, sports are very much in the world of fitness.

[@kindafatkindastrong5683]

4:25 this little chinese kid has better form then all of us

[@Rhye_]

vetjoh than.

[@leftphilange69]

SP Riggs when I got serious of lifting I started noticing that kids from the age of about 1 (when they can first start walking) to about age 5 have perfect mobility... like klokov level mobility, and perfect deadlift form without trying, perfect thoracic extension etc etc. It seems to rapidly start declining after age 8. I wonder how much it’s environmental (starting to sit down too much, not playing around as much to maintain flexibility) and how much of it is natural from bones fusing and getting less flexible but more structurally sound. Certainly seems to have a remarkable drop off point at puberty, likely due to the quick growth spurts making one’s body mechanics awkward and hard to adapt to in time. Then after that, most people start becoming sedentary and just accepting their shitty mobility I imagine. Either way, it’s kind of beautiful to watch kids move in such natural and elegant ways (wow that sounded creepy) but you know what I mean.

[@mccallcarlson3580]

Not perfect. He pulls with a hyperextended low back. I'm assuming they'll train it out of him before it starts to hurt. More important to keep the chest out position when he's starting out.

[@walking8156]

I began Crossfit with a strong background in powerlifting, but not Olympic lifting. So, I had to learn the overhead position. I tried using Crossfit tutorials, but never had much success. Finally, I researched Olympic lifting directly, watching tutorials from Klokov and especially Torokhtiy (among others). I also bought Greg Everett's authoritative guide to Olympic weightlifting (2016, 2018). Soon after studying the Olympic lifting approach, my overhead position improved and subsequently become quite strong. Here is a quote from Everett's book (which is highly praised by Mike Burgener, btw) that aspiring Crossfitters might benefit from. “In the overhead position, the bony points of the elbows should be directed approximately halfway between backward and down. In other words, this will be about the mid-point between full internal (elbow back) and external (elbow down) rotation of the upper arm. Some degree of variation is allowable here to account for individual anatomical peculiarities - the athlete should place the elbows in this initial neutral position and then adjust slightly into the position that feels most comfortable without a dramatic divergence. This [mid-point] position will provide the greatest structural stability for two basic reasons. First, this elbow orientation encourages and allows correct positioning of the shoulder blades and opens the shoulder joint adequately to bring the arms overhead; second, if the elbows are oriented directly downward, the force of the weight must be resisted almost entirely by muscular strength - with the elbows turned back halfway, the elbows’ articulation is no longer aligned with the downward force and the rigid structure of the skeleton can assist in supporting the load to a greater extent.” In summary, full internal rotation (elbow points pointing back) is not recommended, nor is full external rotation (elbow points pointing down). Somewhere in the middle is considered ideal, as per Everett. My experiences are entirely consistent with Everett's observations - wish I had read them sooner. It is perhaps also worth noting that this "half-way" position can indeed support enormous loads overhead; e.g., Torokhtiy's 562 lb power jerk. Anyway, hope this helps.

[@luismarioperazaontiveros2254]

It did help, thank you

[@oscarsundevall7281]

Hands down best weighlifting channel on youtube. Keep it up!

[@KarmaIsABitsch]

agreed!!!

[@ag9297]

I don't Identify as Internal or External. I am lateral rotation. Respect my rotation orientation or I will sue you.

[@superstugris]

fantastic haha

[@N8Magic315]

I am a huge fan of your work.

[@Zaphodox]

Oh that is the best comment i have seen on a weightlifting video in some time ;)

[@arhenyo]

So is it really Lateral Rotation? No Internal or External Rotation? Just curious

[@izdaica1]

Alex G Infinite Elgintensity wants to know your location.

[@kindafatkindastrong5683]

mmmmm who should i trust... an olympic gold medalist or a lvl 1 crossfit coach???? lol

[@sakispdsw]

vetjoh hmmmmhmhmhmmmhmhmhmhmmhmhmh

[@iJorgePaz]

trust jason blaha

[@djp3525]

Lol. Very true. But you can’t blame the CrossFit coach. He has no clue what’s he’s doing. He’s just teaching what the franchise taught him. Don’t deviate from the franchise!!!!!

[@iforc]

False dichotomy. Many cf L1 course coaches are highly trained and learned from Olympians.

[@kindafatkindastrong5683]

@@iforc cope... thats the hardest cope ive ever heard ever

[@wetl2628]

When I started with my overhead squat I was told I was lacking mobility in my schouders to do a proper one. Then I found somewhere on the webs the que to pull the bar apart while pulling my shoulders to my ears. This puts your scapula in the right position, activates the upper back. Tried it, and behold, an overhead squat.

[@greggeis918]

It’s funny I self taught “internal” rotation because I misunderstood the external rotation cue was rotating your hands externally - pits out not forward. It is way more natural and comfortable for me when I realized I was wrong so I kept what worked. Good to hear someone clarify/articulate better than I could.

[@BlinkVirus]

Tried to front squat today and failed. This is the only video on KZbin that's been helpful in pinpointing where my weaknesses are!

[@congoose100]

A lot of good coaches stray away from the push in to the bar cue as well for a similar reason. No relative movement in that direction. I like Greg Everett's cue to pinch the tops of the shoulder blades together. That muscular tension can be felt by even a novice. Good stuff

[@TheForgeFunctionalFitness]

Thanks for such a well thought-out explanation and great response to Dan Pope's questions below. I'm a CF coach and it's frustrating to see the amount of clips and videos from CFL1 seminars which actively teach the complete opposite to Torokhtiy, Catalyst (Greg Everett) and the Chinese and Russian Olympic coaches. It really should be a no-brainer when wondering whose advice to follow. That said, I do hope people understand the positive impact that CF has had on Oly lifting and it's also great that you mentioned it here.

[@pillepalle3614]

I do and teach crossfit. For weightlifting and gymnastics I always listen to weightlifters and gymnasts. No questions. And lots of my colleagues do too. As a PT your analysis of why crossfit teaches external rotation is spot on. I always wondered but this could very well be the answer.

[@jass9571]

Great video ..love how you critically analysed this topic and didnt just say 1 one is right or wrong but actually tried to figure out y 2 opposing cues exist..mad respect !

[@Nedls5]

Buddy that’s an awesome breakdown of reasons for internal(natural) rotation. I had the same thoughts about it. Fix the squat first, then worry about all the other movements.

[@kzelmer]

I tought it could not be possible, but every vid is better than the previous one. Best weightlifting channel hands down.

[@djsuter4410]

I really enjoyed your video. I study martial arts where we are constantly taught a strong, correct squat to develop leg mobility. Couldn't agree more about knees over toes and avoiding the rounding of the lower back. I like how you noted the problem lay in leg strength and not correcting further up the body with arm rotation. Sharp observations. Quality vid.

[@gabimunro7158]

You fixed me falling backwards with your explanation at the end, with your words. I paused the video, stayed at 90 degrees able to control all the way to the floor and up and back down again

[@tomc3216]

Thanks for this video Zack. I teach yoga and have a structural integration practice (aka rolfing). I have a few crossfitters that attend class that have shoulder pain and I've been watching Olympic lifters like yourself Clarence and others trying to figure out why they are having shoulder issues. I see them retract their scapula and posterior tilt the scapula but I was missing the external rotation they were layering on top. I thought everyone taught the natural IR in the overhead position that I observed the Olympians performing like the Ukrainian Olympian you interviewed in the beginning and now it's making sense why they are having shoulder pain. I'm going to recommend they watch this video. Thanks again.

[@fitnesspainfree]

Hey Zach, enjoyed the video and this is a question I get asked a lot about too. I'm a physical therapist who works for power monkey fitness. We do a lot of continuing education for olympic lifters I agree with you that driving the head through increases torso angle (and creating the shoulder internal rotation as a result). i think this torso angle is going to create a stronger squatting position and allow larger weights to be lifted. What concerns me is that a more inclined torso position causes more flexion of the shoulder joint and also glenohumeral internal rotation (The internal rotation due to lat / pec restriction forces IR to get more flexion). Large amounts of shoulder flexion and IR also impinge the rotator cuff (There's actually a rotator cuff test called Neer's test which replicates this position). Because of this I don't really agree that shoulder IR and hyperflexion at end range is really a "safer" position for the shoulder that will allow you to lift longer without surgery. Also, when people have rotator cuff impingement they generally lose the ability to fully flex the shoulder (especially with added internal rotation) mostly because we know that this position compresses the rotator cuff. In regards to this position creating the most stable position to support load overhead and activate most shoulder blade musculature, I fail to see why. (If you have some sound logic I'd love to hear it). I honestly think the reason why these lifters do well with these positions is because they've built tremendous strength and capacity in these positions over the course of a lifetime (and starting at a very young age). We know that in a lot of sports the body adapts when we stress it through a period of development (boney changes in baseball throwers, boney changes in the hip for hockey/basketball). The body tends to adapt well over time if we consistently stress in a well periodized way especially while still developing in youth (but maybe not so well in the 40 year old trying olympic lifting for the first time). I'm curious as to why you think cueing external rotation leads to future problems? I think the external rotation cue (because I use that cue myself) helps to facilitate posterior tilt of the scapula (to free up some room for the cuff) and minimize some of the end range flexion and internal rotation (which also compresses the cuff). I also tend to disagree that lifters can get deeper with less hip abduction / ER. Generally find the opposite and depth improves with more toe out in the squat (which allows a more upright torso and therefore less flexion/ IR of the shoulder). I do however agree that groin tightness can limit depth and hip abduction at bottom of squat. Didn't mean to be a troll and am genuinely curious of your thoughts. I'm a biomechanics nut like yourself and think probably way too much about this topic. We teach some of the cues you teach against and this is a topic of discussion between myself and the other coaches at power monkey fitness (we have a few olympians on staff as coaches). Definite goal is to keep athletes safe at the end of the day and keep them doing what they love.

[@zacktelander]

Thank you for watching. I'll try to provide as much as I can as a response so here goes. Lets start with this: "What concerns me is that a more inclined torso position causes more flexion of the shoulder joint and also glenohumeral internal rotation (The internal rotation due to lat / pec restriction forces IR to get more flexion). Large amounts of shoulder flexion and IR also impinge the rotator cuff (There's actually a rotator cuff test called Neer's test which replicates this position). Because of this I don't really agree that shoulder IR and hyperflexion at end range is really a "safer" position for the shoulder that will allow you to lift longer without surgery" Aleksey never says to increase torso inclination. It's assumed that torso inclination will occur in the squat but only to a certain end it can be beneficial. Inclination is always secondary to neutral/safe posture. If you watch elite weightlifters they have the distinct ability to hinge and unhinge at the hips while squatting and limit the posterior tilt of the scaps. There is IR but it is controlled and it is static. When he says that teaching external rotation is dangerous by jokingly stating they will require surgery, he is simply saying that when you load this position it will end up to be harmful as your capacity increases. What I said at the end of the video is to not deliberately cue external or internal, rather to focus on missing pieces in the squat. Next: "In regards to this position creating the most stable position to support load overhead and activate most shoulder blade musculature, I fail to see why. (If you have some sound logic I'd love to hear it)" I understand what you mean by this point entirely and again it not be true that it is the most stable position IF the lifter is (what CrossFit L1 staff would call) an immature squatter. However my logic behind internal rotation providing the most stable support derives from an olympic gold medalist who has snatched more than any american in human history telling me so. Pair that with the teachings of coach Jian Ping Ma, who STRONGLY advocates internal rotation, and you may see my logic (coach ma currently coaches multiple world champions and world record holders) please see: instagram.com/p/BfGhlv6Btit/?hl=en&taken-by=mastrength. Next: "I honestly think the reason why these lifters do well with these positions is because they've built tremendous strength and capacity in these positions over the course of a lifetime (and starting at a very young age). We know that in a lot of sports the body adapts when we stress it through a period of development (boney changes in baseball throwers, boney changes in the hip for hockey/basketball). The body tends to adapt well over time if we consistently stress in a well periodized way especially while still developing in youth (but maybe not so well in the 40 year old trying olympic lifting for the first time)" It's interesting you bring this up because this is what I do. I have periodized programs for 20+lifters and have written hundreds of weeks of programming. Many of these lifters have had issues with hip abduction in the squat. Many of these lifters have had issues getting proper depth. Many of these lifters started lifting in there 30's. Not once have I cued external rotation to fix this issue and over the course of 12-16 weeks they fix these issues with TIME and LOAD. If I could show you the progress of one of my masters athletes and his bottom position, front rack, and overhead position, I would. I also have coached 1,000 hours of CrossFit classes (I recieved my L1 in 2013, stopped coaching in 2015, I also have my NSCA-CSCS, USAW-L2, NCSF-CPT). What I can honestly say is that the efficacy of providing a lifter with simple cues and minimal specific practice is nowhere near what I have done for any of my current lifters. " I'm curious as to why you think cueing external rotation leads to future problems? I think the external rotation cue (because I use that cue myself) helps to facilitate posterior tilt of the scapula (to free up some room for the cuff) and minimize some of the end range flexion and internal rotation (which also compresses the cuff)." It's because it avoids the abilities necessary to acquire the posterior tilt in the scaps (and maintain said tilt throughout the squat). The person who's scaps are being pulled anteriorly during a squat has end range capacity issues in the lower body that can be built up with proper time and load. Also the ideal position explicitly stated by aleksey himself in his teachings allows for posterior tilt of scaps and glenohumeral internal rotation (facilitated by pressing upward into the bar) As weightlifters you need to have the ability to separate the two actions, something that an untrained lifter struggles with. Next: "I also tend to disagree that lifters can get deeper with less hip abduction / ER." Agree or disagree the lifter I used as an example (in the video) CAN NOT get deeper with his current hip abduction capabilities or lack there of. He avoids abduction to get lower. I'm not stating that is what you should do, Im stating that is what is happening and what does happen to many untrained lifters. This is the best I can do for times sake, I'm much better at specifically addressing points of performance through dialogue than in writing so please forgive me for the sloppiness. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comment and I hope to see more comments from you in the future. Best, Zack

[@fitnesspainfree]

Hey Zack, thanks for the response! I've heard the same argument from elite coaches for the IR but I still see a lack of sound logic / reasoning. Just because its a strong position to support load doesn't mean it's naturally safe. Maybe the athletes who can tolerate these positions well don't get hurt and move on to win due to their natural ability / work ethic and ability to tolerate these positions without getting hurt. Not sure I follow you with the discussion on scapular tilt. In my mind an external rotation cue will actually force scapular posterior tilt (not the opposite?). The GH IR with scap posterior tilt does make sense to me though. Sounds like a good idea. Definitely agree with the time and load and agree that fixing issues downstream can certainly help upstream (basically what we teach at power monkey). The overhead position naturally tends to take care of itself generally. I've also coached CF for 6-7 years, competed nationally in a strength sport, written programming for hundreds of athletes, was a full time S and C coach (2 years), worked with olympic level coaches and athletes (for physical therapy and collaboration with speaking). I don't say that to sound boastful but to let you know I know where you're coming from. That being said, I have also seen a bunch of athletes who get hurt in these positions that are "safe" (I'm not saying it's conclusively dangerous I'm just saying that I see people who get hurt so I can say that it certainly happens sometimes). Just as a therapist who works with a lot of lifters you eventually see people get hurt. Tough to know the cause but I'm still cautious because of the specific injuries seen in weightlifting (impingement) and the movements of the joint that recreate the mechanism of injury (hyperflexion and IR). When you're working to return that athlete to sport and keep future athletes safe, these thoughts come to mind.

[@fmls8266]

@@fitnesspainfree Russians teach IR, chineses teach IR, basically any elite lifter uses that position, and so does everyone else at every level. Anybody with adequate mobility can tolerate that position, the internal rotation is actually very very slightly and very often not even coached directly BUT it will help a lot with getting the upper back and shoulders tight, in contrary to the armpit pushed forwards of crossfit. Shoulder injuries in weightlifting are very rare eventho loads, volume and frequency of overhead work are huge, that means the position clearly works; exactly the opposite thing happens in crossfit. The logic is incredibly simple, this is the strongest position to hold huge weights overhead and comes after a century of research and application on the field. Have you ever tried holding a 2x bodyweight snatch with that crossfit dude position in this video and how stable was it?

[@fitnesspainfree]

Federico Melis I can agree that a lot of elite coaches teach this position and are very strong to your point. I work with two US Olympians Cheryl heyworth and chad Vaughn who do not actively teach IR, nor did they use those positions during training. I’ll argue that the strongest position is not always the safest. I’m not trying to fear monger about lifting being dangerous but if you look at the research about injuries in Olympic lifting you’ll see the shoulder is typically the most injured joint (up there with the knee and lower back depending on the study). Lastly as far as I know there is no research about what the Safest position is. If there is I’d love to have you share it. To your point I’m not as strong as those athletes but have done jerk recoveries with 425lbs (I weigh 180) with that “crossfit” position.

[@fmls8266]

You dont intentionally internal rotate, its somethihng that naturally happens to different degrees when you set the scapulas and shoulders properly to stabilize the position. That's the way it gets taught, from russians to chineses to Greg Everett and so on, they don't teach an intentional IR, and honestly the IR isnt even much at all, it's more something in between. The most common injured joint is the lower back, then knees and shoulders, and the rates are honestly fairly low compared to the huge amount of work weightlifters do, we are talking people training up to 15 times a week since youth. Don't you think we would see incredibly high rates of shoulder injury if basically anyone was using the "unsafe" overhead position? With everyone i mean kids to amateurs to low tier, not only the elite that might have adapted or be more suited to it as you guessed. Also, do you think Soviets would develop a system based on huge research in the labs and in the field with the unsafe overhead position in it? And then the rest of the world decided to adopt it and even research more on that and stay on it? The point is, you are not causing any impingement or whatever else risk in that strong position, the internal rotation is extremely sublte and more of a way to set the shoulders right, why would it be unsafe? On the other hand the ER position we can see in the video or in many crossfit boxes is extremely external rotated, and extremely unstable, how can it be safer? It's also a position that came out very recently because most beginners in crossfit could not achieve the positions that are usually taught in weightlifting. I can't see how it can be superior in any way.

[@mushie1221]

Thank you for teaching accessible movement. There is no one way, as you mention. All bodies are different, so we should be teaching to the one body. As you say, "observe and fix - don't cue specific things". And this requires paying attention on the part of the instructor. And they have to know how to really dissect movement. Group classes present a huge challenge, because they require that we teach, to some degree, to all bodies. And that's financially inefficient. :) You're a real treat to the world of functional movement, through all means of movement. Thanks Zack.

[@acca8313]

Best youtube channel

[@montgomeryharr30]

I really like how you technically lay the smackdown on many things CrossFit in here but at no point blame crossfit or really shit on it. It's all very calm, collected, evidence based and forgiving. :)

[@ShinSuperSaiyajin]

CrossFit: but you have externally.... The Zack: IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW EXTERNALLY ROTATED YOUR SHOULDER IS!!!

[@Kukatoo]

Great video, thank you so much for these. As a teenager trying to learn in the U.S. without a coach, it can be difficult to get good information.

[@TheTkrum]

The issue isn’t with your shoulders, The issue is with your squat!

[@GiulianoIbarreta]

You just answered my question before I asked it o.0 you are the Jeff Cavaliere of Oly 💪🏽🙌🏽

[@dennisnordlund902]

Don’t insult, Telander! He knows what he’s talking about, unlike all the noobs hero and apostle.

[@anobscenedarkness4117]

Bloody hell you fixed my squat issues in a video about shoulder positioning.. glad I subscribed.

[@moldieee]

After 5 years of externally rotating overhead as CrossFit taught me, I tore my labrum. Spent 2 years in pain, and haven't put a bar overhead since. This matters.

[@petteripohjanniemi]

underrated

[@smolboyi]

IM SORRY I asked for this video way after you posted this. thank you so much Zachary!

[@NorwichGrad97]

You are the best online coach...ever..

[@emp5352]

I really appreciate your videos. This video really explains why there ought to be a period of strength and mobility training before adding on heavier weights to the clean&jerk or snatch. Crossfit is usually marketed toward the (for the lack of better term) casual athlete, and their strategy is to try to get someone with no experience to be able to execute these movements in the shortest period of time possible. If every Crossfit coach emphasized on 6 months of conditioning before teaching their members how to do the Olympic lifts, I would imagine that a lot more people would drop out and go to a calisthenics gym. Weightlifting is used in Crossfit as an accessory that adds onto their high intensity program, so it makes sense why they do this. Many who do Crossfit aren't concerned about being the best weightlifter - they are concerned more about becoming a more fit athlete [and those who do wish to focus more on weightlifting end up transitioning into Olympic weightlifting as shown in this video]. Normally, I would say that this isn't morally questionable, but these movements are quite dangerous on their own. Even with good form and execution, overhead lifts carry the risk of permanent damage. You don't *need* to learn the clean&jerk or snatch to become fit. You can simply do every other Crossfit workout and achieve a high level of fitness without risk of damaging your body. Crossfit coaches are morally obligated to teach their students how to do these lifts with proper form and technique, as they are risking physical injuries by intentionally doing otherwise.

[@stelliumeleven2889]

As always, quality content! would love to see more videos on programming!

[@Seb4asti4n]

You're fucking fantastic man. Great video.

[@timothyleyva1986]

Great explanation of understanding the process of movements. Keep up the great content, these help me tremendously with my workouts while learning right now

[@guam58]

This is puts everything into perspective. Thank you much for simplifying.

[@AllatonceIvan]

Awesome stuff man!!

[@ricardonassar4439]

I just love your content and this is become one of my favorite videos instantly! Keep it up!

[@uncanaldeentretenimiento9918]

To support Zack’s posture. There are more muscles that assists or do internal rotation and more powerful. For external rotation we have, infraspinatus, supraspinatus, teres minor and may be middle delt. For internal rotation we have subscapularis, teres major, lats, anterior delt, pectoralis and indirectly, serratus anterior. And now the question is, for being in that position, where do you have a bigger and stronger base basing in the biomechanics of the muscles in the upper body?

[@DavidTPerkins22]

England is my city!!!!!!!!

[@DustinOranchuk]

Englands a city?

[@DavidTPerkins22]

Dustin Oranchuk 🤬

[@geho2000]

Milton Keynes is no city either. :)

[@TCt83067695]

An entire country is a city? Bro...

[@unky5724]

TCt83067695 Are you stupid

[@akwamann]

right before my lifting session! today can only be a good training day!

[@powercamp33]

Very good video Zach ! I have man CrossFit athletes that transition to weightlifting and come to my gym, and they have a hard time understanding the proper overhead position !

[@visionmaker4031]

Hi Zack nice video, very exhaustive. Greetings from Italy 🇮🇹 👋🏻

[@332131440]

Excellent video. Completely convinced me to subscribe.

[@palvindarchhokar9821]

Brilliant content ma dude, keep it coming.

[@billclair8193]

It's the little things! Great video!

[@tashakamikarkori]

At least the external rotation queue in crossfit gives us entertaining videos of people dropping the bar on them selves

[@R32WA]

Awesome video, I had issue with my shoulder from bad Xfit tips. Well done.

[@Gounemporos]

I have dislocated my left shoulder because of external rotation with Overhead Squats ...Your absolute right man

[@Nikita_Turbo]

8:09 i believe his name is pronounced like AptI (stress on the last i) AukhAdov. Source: am native in russian and follow the guy myself

[@monicamillunzi9804]

Thanks! Super usefull

[@cowboyoverall]

Awesome information! Keep it up!!!

[@ashemleibakngambamoirangch5416]

Perfect explanation 👏👏👏

[@deniscales]

Nice. No shade, just facts. Thanks, Zack!!

[@Sami-Gantz]

Thanks a lot Zack, I've been concentrating on that external rotation thing as I start adding weightlifting to my powerlifting programme so I am glad to hear what you have to say before I start trying to add more weight. Gonna just observe and see if I can't drive my arms up harder (My shoulders are pretty weak lol).

[@UnprofessionalAthlete]

Been snatching for 3 weeks and just realized Ive been externally rotating the whole time. No wonder My shoulders been feeling so taxed.

[@flaviodepiano8367]

you're great!!! Doing a great job! Please come over Australia to do a seminar! :)

[@MerlinDeLyon]

yessssss you finally made the videoo

[@fabianberru747]

Love the content! Keep it going! I will say personally I had more shoulder injuries in weightlifting with cuing internal rotation and agree with you in that it should not be cued though it does happen. What are your thoughts on lack of rotator cuff activation with internal rotation? Also, I tend to see in beginners and have felt myself less tricep activation (soft elbows overhead) with internal rotation. Lastly, what are your thoughts on wrist position (extended or stacked) overhead?

[@andreasviken2949]

I feel like whenever I pull my wrists back to catch the bar like I'm told to do, my shoulders are forced externally as opposed to when I push back against he bar with straight wrists I remain in internal rotation.

[@davidmason5357]

Great content Zack, per usual. Video idea: shrugging the bar up vs pulling yourself under the bar. I want to hear your thoughts on trap involvement and timing in the clean and snatch. I

[@pistolpete7777]

Maybe a video about "knees in vs knees out" ON THE WAY UP...everyone says knees out on way up but anyone who knows about weightlifting knows the knees should stay put or even slightly adduct..LIKE EVERY TOP LIFTER DOES

[@jojojlc7070]

Been waiting for this after that 10 second interaction with torokhtiy

[@austinmarron8295]

Great video, I took the level one three years ago and was taught the external rotation in the overhead squat. but found that I naturally gravitated toward a slightly internal rotation just because it was more stable. It is fantastic to finally understand this more fully! keep up the awesome videos man!

[@nicholasparas6399]

you the man ZT

[@prakhargupta2604]

well one thing for sure , directly diving head straight into OHSQ , without learning to squat and ohp (wide and narrow) seperately that shit is important. before doing crossfit 9 basic movemet , do the big 4 first the CJ and SNATCH , with these 6 progress to all the kipping pull ups and what not , a strong foundation before crossfit or any other thing is important. PS long story short if you are doing the movement right , you will internal rotate

[@krisonbarman1376]

Awesome video 💕💖

[@KeepoHdee]

Excessive internal rotation is bad, and so is excessive external rotation it should somewhere in the middle and u dont really have to think about rotating at all. This is what fixed my oh position after 6 months of struggling. I stopped thinking about which way to rotate and literally just actively push up and back a bit while activating all the upper back and keeping the arms straight

[@antoniosantoru2993]

Another great video! Could you make one on how to hit proper depth in the squat?

[@gabrielcunningham9564]

Thanks!

[@sameerarcum]

I think Dr. Aaron Horschig of Squat University explains this technically in his video

[@FriedEggQueen]

Great video!

[@ledjaza395]

This is awesome. (plus we're walkin the same lax->xfit->weightlifting path brotha...gotta fill the void somehow)

[@askthechairman283]

It seems like Crossfit makes internal rotation out to be the enemy, and while it seems that way for a movement such as the squat, other exercises like swimming, running, and biking all seem to require some degree of internal rotation but seems like this is ignored in the seminar despite being constantly varied movements hmm...

[@SantomPh]

AskTheChairman try pushing a box...shoulders go inward, box moves , when you externally rotate the box doesnt move

[@theylivewesee1674]

when in doubt go in between so not fully internal nor fully external, I myself feel like doing that and going towards internal more and pushing my head through I feel the activation of my traps and shoulders which stabilize the barbell more

[@TheKupko]

Amazing as always, 10/10 information and quality wise (ane evrything else I guess :D). Can you make some video about quad strength? You made video how to improve pulling strength, what about pushing (legs/squat) strength?

[@firmans12]

Dammit I need to stop to crossfit instructor and go get my weightlifting coach

[@Supertajt]

Thank you!! :)

[@ReneMcLaren]

Zach going down for the catch in your snatch 8:06 you hit with your toes first. You should hit hard with full foot contact.

[@masterbulgokov]

I love the video. It's very lucid. Would you say that an athlete shouldn't even start putting weight on a bar for a snatch until he can do an efficient full-squat SOTS press @, say, 45-95#? I can't do it, and I've been screwing around with the snatch (and hurting my shoulders) for a few years now (having been taught external rotation is king). It seems to me, from your video, that unless I've solved the problems below my shoulders, I shouldn't be putting any kind of load on my shoulder.

[@BjerkeRobin]

Interestingly, my crossfit coaches all teach internal rotation 🤔

[@jater10]

Many good CrossFit coaches are not necessarily following all what HQ says as they used to. They probably saw this video or similar weightlifting content online.

[@BjerkeRobin]

@@jater10 quite possibly.

[@jater10]

@@BjerkeRobin internal rotation has saved my shoulders from some of the issues some of my fellow CF peeps have had to deal with. Even at the expense of being told my OH squat and snatch is weird.

[@BjerkeRobin]

​@@jater10 all I know is that it feels far more locked in, stable and strong. Slightly less mobility perhaps, but hence more stable.

[@coachluke85]

Rotation should not be a cue, period. In gymnastics, active and passive shoulders simply distinguishes the difference between a tight and a sloppy shoulder. There is no rotation other than the athlete's propensity in their hand placement, unless they're on the rings, in which case SUPINATION is the more desirable handstand shoulder position because it keeps their upper arms off of the straps. In weightlifting, the cues should be an aggressive tension in the triceps to lock the elbows, and an aggressive extension in the shoulder. This puts all of the fibers involved in stabilizing the shoulder throughout the movement in favorable length. Leave the rotation out of it.

[@sgates13]

Is that a lacrosse photo in the background?

[@Darrell1977]

Zack: What is it in 8:11 that allows him (forgot his name) to get into that squat jerk position with the head through position like that. What mobility/flexibility are we all missing to not be able to do this? :) Thanks, great content as always! Big fan!

[@tomingram9717]

Great video! Is there a way to get more internal rotation, through shoulder mobility or similar? I'm struggling with jerks and snatches overhead as I have imbalanced shoulders one of which partially dislocates regularly, so need more stable and mobile shoulders

[@SantomPh]

Tom Ingram you really need to balance your shoulders or no technique will help

[@chriss5779]

you dont want to internally rotate your glenohumeral joint overhead. external rotation is what will reduce capsular slack and increase congruency of the joint, ultimately leading to more intrinsic stability to supplement what your delts and rotator cuff can generate. internal rotation in the overhead position leads to slack in the capsule connecting the humerus to the scapula and allows for translation movement rather than axial 3D rotation

[@forcealpine87]

At 2:22, who is the bearded guy in the bottom of the screen? Anyone recognize him from the video of the guy breaking the world record clean & jerk and the snatch? He was in it multiple times, clapping with exactly that same enthusiasm.

[@JI77469]

Great video, but is scapula retraction (like you're supposed to do on a bench press) in addition to a trap shrug part of "..the bar supported by the most possible musculature in the back?" Or does scapula retraction add to "external rotation"?

[@getstrongby4038]

Crossfit DOES NOT MATTER

[@mccallcarlson3580]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh that's so interesting!

[@trexbattle]

Naw that’s totally an acceptable cue

[@kevinbaird6516]

dead on mate

[@Benganboy1]

Amazing content! You sir, will MAGA!!!

[@theylivewesee1674]

Apti is love

[@DanielDavies-StellularNebulla]

Aah I see what you did there at 8:33... Curable thing

[@abrahamrohithroy7421]

You are awesome

[@theonlypd]

This is amazing information for a power jerk, no? Why split jerk when you can have the symmetry of a power jerk?

[@PinataOblongata]

I think trying to make my "elbow pits" face forwards and push my traps up as Aleksey teaches has injured my right shoulder joint, although it's hard to be sure. It feels weird to be trying to shrug when all other strength movements teach to keep the scaps back and down and stable and I never really understood why he taught that. Snatch was so crappy for me I went back to powerlifting, which is a shame because I like the technicality of weightlifting. I couldn't care less what cross-fitters have to say about it, even if they are saying I don't need to rotate my arms in that nasty direction.

[@SonsOfDeForest]

sounds like a strength issue, you should be able to keep your scapula back and stable while also 'shrugging' with the traps. do more overhead pressing and pullups

[@Fouterosholygrail]

2:10 is that Pyrros Dimas on the right?

[@eries8525]

If i do what you did with the arm overhead my arm still remains neutral, no rotation.

[@aronlisy6108]

CrossFit level 1 teaches beginers how to excercise safely and efficiently, world champ in weightlifting will focus on lifting maximum weight as possible. One thing is never best option for everyone! It is important to discuss about it and never call something ultimate truth. Good post! Keep it up!

[@SCB_01]

Áron Lisý 10/10 trolling.

[@aronlisy6108]

?

[@dipankarmohanty]

Would it be worthwhile to make a video of releasing the thumb when receiving the bar during the snatch?