Shoulder Internal or External Rotation During Snatch? |

[@walking8156]

I began Crossfit with a strong background in powerlifting, but not Olympic lifting. So, I had to learn the overhead position. I tried using Crossfit tutorials, but never had much success. Finally, I researched Olympic lifting directly, watching tutorials from Klokov and especially Torokhtiy (among others). I also bought Greg Everett's authoritative guide to Olympic weightlifting (2016, 2018). Soon after studying the Olympic lifting approach, my overhead position improved and subsequently become quite strong. Here is a quote from Everett's book (which is highly praised by Mike Burgener, btw) that aspiring Crossfitters might benefit from. “In the overhead position, the bony points of the elbows should be directed approximately halfway between backward and down. In other words, this will be about the mid-point between full internal (elbow back) and external (elbow down) rotation of the upper arm. Some degree of variation is allowable here to account for individual anatomical peculiarities - the athlete should place the elbows in this initial neutral position and then adjust slightly into the position that feels most comfortable without a dramatic divergence. This [mid-point] position will provide the greatest structural stability for two basic reasons. First, this elbow orientation encourages and allows correct positioning of the shoulder blades and opens the shoulder joint adequately to bring the arms overhead; second, if the elbows are oriented directly downward, the force of the weight must be resisted almost entirely by muscular strength - with the elbows turned back halfway, the elbows’ articulation is no longer aligned with the downward force and the rigid structure of the skeleton can assist in supporting the load to a greater extent.” In summary, full internal rotation (elbow points pointing back) is not recommended, nor is full external rotation (elbow points pointing down). Somewhere in the middle is considered ideal, as per Everett. My experiences are entirely consistent with Everett's observations - wish I had read them sooner. It is perhaps also worth noting that this "half-way" position can indeed support enormous loads overhead; e.g., Torokhtiy's 562 lb power jerk. Anyway, hope this helps.

[@hadhad129]

agreed all I know is that is exactly what my right side does and it is very strong and pain free no matter what and mobile. if change it i get 2 different distinct not pain but uncomfortable feelings and seem like I am like you said using muscular strength. just gotta figure out my left side its semi frozen :(

[@laurabenigno5720]

Thank you for posting this. Will look for his book.

[@Fhshaoaksbd]

Burgener and Everett both teach level 1 certs/seminars for CrossFit. They have quite a few of them available for free on KZbin.

[@animadverte]

The point is not if you're actually internally rotating, but if you are making the effort to do that. It is the effort to rotate internally that helps you keeping the bar solidly. It does not really matter if you eventually succeed. clearly the effort cannot simply be detected by watching a video of a random champion. we should ask him/her about what he/she does. and, as a matter of fact, (some) of them report that they internally rotate.

[@rober95rd]

Absolutely agree

[@thedoctor9768]

I completely agree with you! I’ve noticed that in the snatch or overhead squat when i try to internally rotate my homerus I gain a lot of stability, obliviusly its my effort that dictate, if you look by the outside my shoukders are externallyrotste for sure!

[@uliwidmaier5192]

That's exactly right. "Rotate internally!" is a cue, not an actual rotation.

[@abrahamrohithroy7421]

When you said outspoken teachers of internal rotation, I knew it was gonna be Aleksey! I had also noticed that he is not catching the bar in internal during heavy lifts. I think it is due to the combination of shoulder rotation and chest inclination that he and the Chinese lifters say it as internal. Zack Telander also has a breakdown video that explains the shoulder rotation in a very similar way you described. I guess the takeaway is to get the bar in a tight(shoulder blades, lats engaged) and stable position overhead without too much of internal or external rotation. Great video as always.!!!

[@markmondrinos7721]

All of the confusion on this topic is related to the difference between the actual position of the shoulder (ext rotated) and the position the athlete is actively trying to achieve using their musculature. Sure, the shoulder sits in external rotation - for all the anatomical reasons that you articulated - but the athlete can try to create internal rotation. I find that even though my shoulder position doesn't really change, when I "internally rotate" overhead, I feel the load transfer more to my upper back (more stable).

[@eclipsewrecker]

Yeah a cue is used to guide not speak facts. It’s the same as “shoulders to the ears” cue; when loaded the shoulders sit on lats, but traps engaged and stabilizing.

[@uliwidmaier5192]

@@eclipsewrecker Or "ass to grass" when squatting. No one can actually get their butt on the floor in a squat. But if we AIM to do that, our squat deepens. "Ass to grass" is a cue. As is "rotate internally!"

[@hadhad129]

But what is the scapula doing anterior tilt retraction elevation or depression

[@jeremyh.9803]

I think the cue of internal rotation is a misuse of the term but it is used prevent excessive external rotation. There is no actual internal rotation happening, however I believe that the focus on preventing further external rotation when the bar is overhead would help balance the weight in the correct position and create a more stable shoulder joint. Internal rotation is not anatomically possible with a barbell overhead, but attempting to slightly rotate the shoulders internally feels like it activates the deltoids creating a more stabile joint. It also feels as though it creates more tension in the upper back creating a more stable position. I would say you're correct that there is no internal rotation but I think the cue may be useful for balance and stability. Let me know what you think of this. I would really appreciate an opinion.

[@iCaTPSA]

I completely agree with your point. The shoulder is in external rotation but you must aply internal rotation force (which does not mean movement) to stabilize the shoulders.

[@AW.SO.M3]

This info is GOLD. Thank you for taking the time to explain this topic!

[@harrybaals2549]

I incorporated the mental que of internal rotation, and achieved a much more stable overhead. I am also a lot more sensitive to any changes to my overhead technique due to having significant injuries to my left serratus and lats. It was immediately clear and obvious when Oleksiy explained it that it was just meant to be a mental que to direct how i put pressure into the bar, and not an actual physical position I should be in. You are simply resisting excess external rotation by applying internal force, not internal movement

[@asdfkjhlk34]

How did u injure your serratus and lats

[@harrybaals2549]

@@asdfkjhlk34 they were punctured

[@lloydy3250]

I think it has to do with how you 'bend the bar', which is an isometric tension rather than a rotation per-se.

[@haanswinn]

actually JTS promotes internal rotation in the snatch, 5 pillars of snatch vid

[@iMaDeMoN2012]

You want to apply an internal torque on the bar from the shoulder joint (i.e., break the bar cue) and you want to press out on the bar from the shoulder (i.e., spread the car cue). In the break the bar cue, the bar is bending out of the sagittal plane toward the posterior.

[@eclipsewrecker]

-Backstroke -jab/straight (boxing)

[@gerrardalamat9072]

Which is the safest for the joint?

[@tamirbensimhon4523]

The video was great and it helped me understand every quetion I had about this subject

[@charliedw100]

I’m a 64 year old former powerlifter (40+ years) trying to transition to weightlifting. I’m at the baby step stage and am in no rush (I’ll live at least another 4 years, right?). My biggest problem thus far is shoulder mobility. I had to stop lifting the last 5 years from injuries (mostly pulled muscles in my back), but I’ve been okay so far (6 weeks of baby steps). I’m finding it very difficult to retract my arms enough to not have to roll the bar down my neck to my traps doing high bar squats (I don’t do low bar squats anymore). Same goes for trying to snatch the bar behind my head. Very poor range of motion. I saw in other videos how bench pressing for so many years is probably the reason for my shoulder issues. Some days I have a bit more mobility and some days not so much. Is there a cure?

[@yanglinluo]

Charlie Stella stretch n mobilise. Rumble roller is very good. Look up stretches for overhead squat

[@MarkHeywood1]

Good info! Could you explain whether or not lifters should shrug at the top of the overhead press in order to avoid impingement?

[@tylerarndt8218]

Mark Heywood I know a while back he had An instagram post about avoiding shrugging. I don’t remember his recommendations of why.

[@telemudna9773]

So no intentional shoulder internal rotation. But what about the shrug part? From what ive understood you should not try to shrug as well? Am i right? Just focus on scapular retraction?

[@agog86]

I think of it similarly to hips during squatting movements. To stabilize the hip and create power etc we apply torque to the hip socket by screwing the hip into the socket through external rotation. However if there is no opposing force ie strength to internally rotate against that we would loose torque. Similarly with the shoulder there are two opposite forces. It just so happens if I screw my shoulders into what feels like internal rotation i end up with a lot of torque on the shoulder socket and it is more stable for me.

[@fabrej0]

If you listen carefully to Aleksei, he does not recommend internal SHOULDER rotation, but only says : close the shoulder blades, head forward and push up (shoulder blades up). Personally I can feel stability overhead with this advice. The shoulder blades are not the shoulders.

[@sameerarcum]

I think this is how you improved the performance of Mirabai Chanu. Saw her video of bottoms up overhead squat with shoulder externally rotated

[@ericssoda]

At Impact all movement is internal rotation.

[@theylivewesee1674]

in the snatch the position of the scapula and the head is more important then the internal rotation, elevation and retraction of the scapula and pushing your head through the barbell ensures you stabilize the weight by not only your elbows and shoulders but the entire upper back musculature

[@IamKingLi]

5:53 sorry but I just have to say that the athlete on the left is not from China

[@mustbeice]

So bar tension should be to externally or internally rotate? I think that was the focus of the question. Not what anatomical position our body is best in during the top part of the movement, but what our bar tension should be. Similar to the “ripping the bar apart” cue in a bench press to retract the scapula. Would it be the same?

[@iCaTPSA]

Your shoulders are in external rotation but you must aply internal rotation force to stabilize them.

[@grizz6582]

If I can't get the bar overhead without giving up the ideal position (as show by Chad Vaughn) Where do I start looking for improvement? Strengthen external rotators? Mobility on internal rotators? My catch is broken....

[@zemphyre]

The internal rotation phrase is just used to help cue people to squeeze their shoulder blades to have a tighter upper back so you have more stability So in the end, it’s just a verbal cue to help people. You’re never gonna be in complete external or internal rotation

[@GiovACZ]

perhaps the idea of ​​an internal rotation serves to stabilize to avoid excessive external rotation when high loads are raised?

[@antoinegai2641]

The question is: do we lock the scapula together or do we let them slide to the side and up?...

[@benm7595]

Thankyou I was very confused with all the different ways. But you explained it better than anyone. Cheers 👍🏽

[@JI77469]

Dumb question but it seems like in some sense cueing for both internal and external rotation would give you a good stacked position, while simultaneously activating both the lats and the traps for stability (an 'internal rotation cue' alone would activate the traps while an 'external rotation cue' would activate the lats)?

[@jameshill3060]

Dr 🐎 💩 Love this guy ❤️ ❤️ mans a genius

[@ASMRSoldier]

GREAT video! Good use of visuals to explain the proper position. 🤙🤙

[@eppene]

Very good explanation, thank you! I just read an article from Greg Everett, which also backs up everything you mention.For what its worth, in the couple of years I have been following you, your knowledge and extreme expertise in this field, is flawless as far as I can see. I thinks its a good thing to question something and to be a bit source critical. Still, everytime I double check or triple check with other sources, it always ends up the same as you. At least the sources and people I use. :) Really, thank you for willingly sharing you opinions with us, in such a proffesional manner.

[@vinhsanity]

There are a lot of cues to get athletes to do what you want them to. I think the Chinese and other athletes ability to exaggerate the catch position just makes it appear as “internal” because they catch in what has been referred to as the “Chinese bridge” It’s the same with their weight balance in the feet, as I’ve often heard coaches say “the Chinese are coached to have their balance on the balls of their feet when they pull” but when dissecting the lift and speaking to some of the coaches (Vietnam not China, but similar school of thought) it’s just a cue to prevent weight distribution from going too heel heavy.

[@Pasha-py6ps]

Tremendous video

[@gregtennovas619]

What do you think about Julien Pineau and his Strongfit theory for shoulders ?

[@arthurh.3520]

He does not know him, asked a few weeks ago on the internal torque subject 😉

[@lovenottheworld5723]

Internal and external is very confused terminology. So is extension and flexion. Internal and external when and how and extended and flexed of what. The definitions are whatever they are at the time.

[@112358miau]

I noticed on bar shoulder dislocates that internal humeral rotation allows for an easier path avoiding stretch on the pecs. At first it was a stretch movement for me but soon it became more like a mobillity drill. Does it help or even matter here? I went down to 70cm, full grip, not that loose grip with index and thumb. I tried on overhead squats and it was easier on the pecs and easier to balance too cause my torso wasnt as vertical as it should so the bar was exactly over my feet. It didnt feel strong, the way it felt natural to me felt much stronger

[@112358miau]

Ive just started weigthlifting and have a huge mobillity on the shoulder that I gained from rehab work. I can do shoulder dislocates down to 70cm with full grip and was wondering if it would be usefull. None of my teachers could give me a solid answer, other than mobillity=good. What I can tell is that full external feels wrong on my chest and I balance the weight with an elastic stretch. Full internal feels just unstable. When I try to do it on a normal jerk I dont feel it that much unstable, but its not as rotated as I can get it on snatch.

[@mudandstars]

I have recently gotten into weightlifting and I am unsure about its effects on shoulder health. I have a question about the Snatch particularly: In the Second Pull in the Snatch, you abduct and internally rotate in your shoulder at the same time. Correct me if I'm wrong but that makes your Humeral tubercle pinch into your subacromial space and damage tissue over time. It is like in the Upright Row or in Lateral Dumbbel Raises if you internally rotate in them. In my world, that would be causing serious damage over time, but I have seen weightlifters stick around in long careers, so is it actually damaging or am I getting something wrong? Regardless of that first point of mine, I worry about the overhead position: When you abduct your humerus that far/high, you usually keep a thirty degree angle between your ellbow and your side (or the line that is like your arm if you point it straight to the side) to avoid your supraspinatus tendon to grind on your acromion. This is done because this angle provides more subacromial space than a zero degree angle or when your ellbows point to the side. You commonly do this in the shoulder press and lat-pulldown/pull-up to keep healthy shoulders and that is why behind the neck presses or pulls are usually avoided. In the overhead position in the snatch, you have a position like this so is your supraspinatus tendon getting jammed between acromion and humerus? Or do you have enough subacromial space due to your very wide grip (so the angle between humerus and acromian doesn't get as small as in the behind the neck press due to smaller abduction). These are the two shoulder health concerns I have in the snatch and I would be very thankful if you can explain these to me. Thanks for your work and greetings from Germany, Paul

[@telemudna9773]

luaP good questions,id like if someone gives an answer.

[@rudyrich9817]

@@telemudna9773 he doesn't know...

[@samjustforthenet4185]

Ive got a question, why do some people struggle to keep their legs straight during hanging leg raises?

[@psyxex]

I think Chad's squat stance isn't correct as far as his feet not pointing the same direction as his knees.. what do you think?, Thanks for the video, I think I'm kind of a mix between internal and external rotation..

[@hafiznesbitt6943]

Is this for military press as well. Or just snatched

[@khmak9387]

So why do the Chinese practise "Lu raises" with internal rotation at the top position?

[@distributionretail5539]

Nice, thanks

[@fmascia]

You should tell Thorokty that we can't rotate arms when in oh 🤣🤣

[@DJOBSCENEE]

Hey Aaron, I just started doing Olympic lifting(cleans snatch) and i notice. I have some pains in a few places. One in my bicep towards my shoulder slight pain. Two my forarms/wrist feels super tight and weak even if i we're to back squat after I feel like my placement of the bar slides and hurts me. Can it be I'm squeezing the bar too hard?

[@Cafaura]

Did you ever fix this issue? I have the same. Could be mobility issues?

[@Xxh0mEr0xX]

Song at the begining?

[@jasonbennett2194]

Shazam says kzbin.info/www/bejne/rIPUmKdsZ69gla8 but i can't here the those lyrics in that song. The beat is the same though.

[@northdouglas6833]

Hey BROTHER I can’t squat at all, I have to use a Swiss Ball and a wall, I hope you got a remedy, or a fix / game plan, because I’ve poured a decent amount of time into this. And I can only quarter squat. A lot of it is due to weak & tight quads, I can tell because I simply look in the mirror. THANK YOU GREAT SPIRIT THUNDERBIRDS HIGH

[@tylerarndt8218]

Check out his other videos! He’s got a lot of Instagram posts that talk about squat mobility. I remember it being an awkward lift at first.

[@Trennycakes]

Dude the bar is cutoff whole video

[@ivan0799]

Hi, I have a questions about HIP internal rotators-as I know those are (as well as external) glute med.,tfl and glute min., what is the adductors role then, is there an exercise that actually trains internal rotation or do they just get stronger by training external rotation because those are the same muscles? I did see your video on importance of internal rotators and how to train them, but I mean in a way of a compound movement that will hit them..

[@BO2Letsplay]

Sumo stance squats/deadlifts train adductors well, in addition to deep squats (adductor Magnus)

[@gigabuyceps]

So chinese actually have internal wrist torque vs american external wrist torque since both schools are in external shoulder rotation?

[@robschilke]

"...external (American Style)"...you mean Crossfit style.

[@bakbaklavaa]

Just push your chest through and unite your scapula I’m confused

[@bakbaklavaa]

I love you aaron but this wasn’t it

[@jeraisnaturalfitness9313]

What about during a barbell curls? Should I use internal rotation or external?

[@AJ-lb8tu]

Hi Doc Horschig, do you have a fix for pain (impingement feeling) from hip all the way to outer side knee just below the knee cap. It hurts so much when I lean all my body weight on that leg while standing straight. I don't know what is it called & any solution for relief. Pls help.

[@uliwidmaier5192]

This video is seriously confused. Of course shoulder and arm are externally rotated during a lift. That's obvious, and no one claims otherwise. The question is - what should we TRY to do at the top of the lift? Should we try to enhance the external rotation, or should we try to rotate internally? Since our hands are locked on the bar, we can't actually rotate either way. But we can activate our muscles one way or the other. Almost universally, Olympic weightlifters and their coaches have found that it's helpful to activate in the direction of internal rotation. In other words, "rotate internally!" is a cue, not an actuality. It's like saying "ass to grass" when cueing someone to squat deeply. Obviously no one literally gets their butt on the ground when squatting. But it's still a helpful cue. and it can't be refuted by showing that there remains a gap between ass and grass.

[@priyankamankani2336]

The camera man is bad.

[@angelaguilar3875]

Subtítulos en español plss

[@durrantmiller8810]

What about during the squat jerk

[@jasonbennett2194]

ditto ^^

[@davidbarnhouse4642]

This is just semantics. At the end of the day the question is do I do it like this or like that. And the overwhelming majority of world class lifters do it like that not like this.

[@letemsinkgames6475]

Stuff is out of context. The internal rotation cue is for after the catch, not during.

[@rockomontero790]

Stick to squatting man

[@Bennyboy6993]

Jesus loves you! He died for you. He was buried, and was raised 3 days later. Christ died for all of your sins and wrongdoings, He loves you. All you need to do is trust or believe in His finished work to get you to heaven, because none of us can do it alone. We can never be good enough. Just believe in Jesus and what He has already done for you. Ephesians 2:8 says “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,” Go to knowimsaved.com

[@bastaraims1]

You serious? Stick to squats please, do yourself a favour