Introduction to CC3+ For New Users

[@GeoffreyBronson]

You're about to get a spike in views thanks to humble bundle and you deserve it, thanks for the tutorials mate!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Oh. It's already happening haha. The Facebook group has gone nuts. We. Just flew past 3k members.

[@chaoticnote]

@@JoshPlunkett Considering the cost of Inkarnate being a subscription service and Wonderdraft also costing $30 with its own extra assets with their own prices... yeah, $30 for this bundle is an incredible steal! I hope it gets a lot of sales!

[@Liastnir]

Bought the bundle however-long-ago, just finally installed it, but you are still correct hahah

[@ProcessCtrlsEng]

Installed a demo of OG cartographer years ago in college and loved the tool but couldn’t afford it at the time. Just rediscovered it by the HB and Definitely buying it now!

[@davidcourville2424]

Thats why I am here!

[@Eleechee]

I laughed when you muted the computer to sneeze instead of muting the mic 😂

[@JoshPlunkett]

haha dammit

[@f1ip_br]

I got that Humble Bundle from a few months back but only now getting around to play with it. I will watch the rest of the videos, but the first one was already a masterpiece. It would have taken a lot longer to learn everything you put down in 30 minutes. Thank you so much. And that was a mighty sneeze!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Join the Facebook group if you havnt already. So many helpful people.

[@f1ip_br]

@@JoshPlunkett If it was any other platform, I would have done so. However, I am not on FB, so sadly I cannot. But I will keep watching, there are so many hours of great content you put out already.

[@theoandernack8427]

Humble bundle is back as it seems. I salute you fellow new users ^^

[@SailorBarsoom]

I just bought it last night, and thanks to this video, I'm already getting stuff done. Oh, just practice maps for now; Auroboksh and Bukere and the Kingdom of Ksudjerun will have to wait. So, I've subscribed to the first channel in about a year, and will be watching more. I did watch some a few months or years back, and it's part of what moved me to buy the bundle. That and the chopped price, of course.

[@gregkisinger4183]

I first bought CC3+ about 5 years ago, was intimidated by it, and just tried several of the other softwares out there and didn't even use CC3+. But the fact remains that CC3+ just makes darn good maps and is so versatile. After watching this video, it reignited my interest in trying to learn about CC3+ again. Learning the basics is such a morale booster and and I think I'd just like to use it more often and I know that the more I delve into using CC3+ and I see the nice results, then I'll just want to continue learning more about it. Thanks for making this video. Now I'll head over to the FB page and see what else I can learn!

[@ixisid]

I remember trying to mess around with CC2 back when I was much younger, but I largely bounced off it. You make it look so easy, if I had a resource like this video I would've picked it up no problem at all. Thank you!

[@andreamarcelli4672]

26:27 Bless you.

[@tiborkovacs5816]

Thank you, just saw it after I bought the Humble bundle! It is a great guide for starters! Cheers! It is much appreciated!

[@ashildrtheswift3028]

This is so helpful! I got CC3+ as an early Christmas gift, and maybe got a bit too excited with opening it up and trying to figure things out by myself 😅

[@joeworm11]

Thank you! I just bought the program and tried to follow the quick start guide that comes with it but quickly got very confused. Now I can actually do something!

[@JoshPlunkett]

More than welcome Joe. We have an active Facebook Community if you need further help. facebook.com/groups/1830466227284189/

[@TheLadyRowyn]

This is great, thank you. I was completely mystified by this software while trying to use the quickstart guide for it. The video is MUCH MORE USEFUL.

[@shelfunit]

Just got the latest Humble bundle of this, and this video is a godsend - thank you 🙏

[@pronspronson9669]

I got this on humble bundle. The manual is helpful but kinda hard to follow at times, I'm glad this video exists.

[@glorrion1332]

Thank you for the really very compact and helpful tutorial! It helps me a lot to get started with CC3+ Great work! 👍

[@chicoL7]

Wow this was super helpful Thank you for doing this. Would not have found half of that stuff if you hadn't posted this. especially how to get back to that first new open page when you first open it!

[@Gwathiell]

Thank you for this useful video, it really gives a dive into the tool, that I was lacking and all is well explained.

[@mikew7168]

Thank you for this, majorly helpful!

[@GregStevensReviews]

Thanks for the overview Josh. I'm looking at purchasing a map making program to draw my game world and your overview was very informative.

[@JoshPlunkett]

It's currently on sale on one of the bundle sites btw bundleofholding.com/presents/ProFantasy?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR0E7GuCHn2NvN3cpY-KMoplG3wFvgdq50Ow2yw00Srr6HoSRV7ZoEXGio0_aem_AR0q1IHPSrBJhCv9SkKMG40HCoWRVY00bvxiMoa1KQbRniuVcbQ7Udk7sLWhjzNWCnZ_pjpBF7IREBAozjKgM6_h

[@GregStevensReviews]

@@JoshPlunkett I saw, hence why I was looking on reviews of it.

[@JoshPlunkett]

@GregStevensReviews it's not the easiest tool to use and it is aging. If you can master it though... it can do so much. There is a new version coming (cc4) but the date is not known.

[@ParappatheRapper]

Very nice overview. I'm used to using Photoshop to make all my maps so some of the limitations as far as knowing how to use this tool got to me for awhile. Watching this really answered many of my basic problems. Still have to figure out how to edit a symbol ie erase half the image while leaving the other half intact. Still, thank you very much.

[@JoshPlunkett]

You can't natively edit the symbols. This isn't pixel manipulation so the symbols are already pre defined. Technically you could locate the image source file and edit that in photo shop or you could put another image over the original symbol. The borders of a cc3+ map work in this exact way actually. If you load up a pre made map or a starter map you will usually find there is a fake border that surrounds the border art. It's just rectangular objects that are coloured white. So it gives the impression of an edge but ultimately the overhanging symbols are still there just hidden.

[@judymccall9636]

Thank you so much for this overview. It was very helpful and your style is easy to follow. I hope to see more!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Most welcome. Let me know if you want to see any specific topics.

[@myerlinggames]

@Josh Plunkett. One thing I really need to learn on here, is how to combine land masses... I created one, then realized I don't like its shape, or I want to connect two pieces. How do I go about editing the land mass wayyy after the fact, when I realize I want something to change

[@AtraDemonica]

I found a lot by myself, but you were still helpful. Thank you :) I just wanted to start some Pathfinder 2 campaigns and this tool will help a lot. And thank humble bundle to get it cheaper :D

[@moonstrobe]

What would be really cool.. would be to have the rough markings from your tutorial automagically generate a full map. Something like that can already be done with stable diffusion and Nvidias canvas tools. So maybe in CC 4?

[@timothyevans1613]

Awesome tutorial for newbies! Thanks so much for posting this!

[@Hazelnut51000]

So I'm a part of the group that's getting into CC3 thanks to the humble bundle. This tutorial has already helped me enough to get started with the system. One question that I had though was regarding a few of the add ons. The Humble Bundle does not include Dungeon Designer 3 or City Designer 3. Do you recommend that I purchase these as well? Would you consider them essential to create towns and dungeons within CC3, or are they just a useful toolset? Thank you for your help!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Hey mate. Yes I would absolutely consider them essential. You can make these type of maps without the addons but it's much easier with them. I would personally start with cc3+ and wait for Black Friday. There's always amazing sales on Black Friday. Sign up for the newsletter, join the Facebook group and wait for the sales to start and then jump in.

[@TonyOseland]

Thanks. The instructional materials that come with the software are really difficult to follow. This is much easier.

[@JustPokey]

Thank you for the help. I was seriously struggling, still am, but less. With this software it's hard to tell sometimes when I'm being dumb, and when the program itself is just being jank.

[@JoshPlunkett]

If you havnt already I suggest joining the campaign cartographer user group of Facebook. Great community with lots of people to help answer questions.

[@SapphicStoryteller]

Thank you for this video!

[@red244]

I think I have given up on CC3+ after completing install on W10 I cannot get any of the catalogues to display. No tools will launch and when attempting to create a new map there are no selectable styles. I've more or less given up at this point tbh.

[@JoshPlunkett]

Have you contacted support? They are amazing at getting issues solved.

[@red244]

@@JoshPlunkett Yeah, I am speaking with them currently. They seem like good folks fingers are crossed they can resolve the issue.

[@artogama4531]

Just started using the program, and this helped a lot! However, when I try to "render" the map, for some reason the terrains don't blend together. I looked at the different sheets and applied both blur and inner Fade, but none are applied to the terrains, in any of the sheets. I tried using the property button, but that doesn't select the terrain, so don't know how to check what sheet it's even on.

[@JoshPlunkett]

Ask this question on the Facebook group or forums. That's the easiest was to engage the people who will know the answer.

[@lemonZzzzs]

I come here due to the humble bundle around 2020-06-18 Late to the party, but... A video in 2017 about a tool with a UI straight out of 2003 at best? That "smooth polygon" tool _alone_ is a capital crime against user experience... Yet they still insist on that being the default option for forest tools and whatnot. All that being said, this still looks like a powerful tool for map making, the colossal failures in UX notwithstanding. Kudos from 2020 for making all these videos to help us noobs try to learn this magnificent abomination!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Best place to learn the tool is the campaign cartographer 3+ user group on Facebook. There's an absolutely influx of new users coming in and learning the tool and the ui.

[@lemonZzzzs]

@@JoshPlunkett I wonder if the humble bundle is helping that influx! That's kinda cool! The tool looks really immense, even despite the UX issues... too bad I don't use Facebook x.x I will have to read the help, the PDFs, and watch and re-watch your videos to overcome the jarring difference between this and other tools... but I am likely to still use it xD (tbh, I am seriously surprised by you still responding after these years! that's kinda awesome!)

[@brodriguez11000]

Heh. Maybe I shouldn't mention the Deluxe Paint inspired interface of Pro Motion NG? Likewise another "powerful" pixelart tool.

[@brodriguez11000]

@@lemonZzzzs : Tome of Ultimate Mapping is a big help (second tier).

[@lemonZzzzs]

@@brodriguez11000 just checked it out briefly... oddly enough, by far not the worst pixel art tool I've seen :D ...I suppose, I am spoiled by the more mainstream art software from today :D

[@johnbaker8095]

Thanks Josh, you made getting started clearer. I am Revit and 3DS max tech and yes some of the tools differ, had to get out of the right brain, you made that easier. Again Thanks

[@Bedwyr7]

So I bought the Humble Bundle (and on the PF website, Cosmographer because I do Sci-Fi frequently) and am wondering how much things have changed. Josh is starting with something called the "Mike Schley Overland Style", something I don't have. I've got four of Mr. Schley's 1000x800, 2 in metric and 2 in english units. How do I get this overland style or has it been renamed, deprecated, etc?

[@Bedwyr7]

Interesting note, I had tried CC3 once before years ago and had trouble "getting" it for someone used to vector tools like Illustrator. Now that I've designed a number of electronics in Autodesk's Eagle and print models in Fusion 360, it's coming a lot easier this time.

[@Bedwyr7]

I should also note I've only installed CC3+ at this point. If the style is on another component, I haven't gotten it yet. Just trying to make sure I don't get lost.

[@rubenbehnke3975]

Is there a way to save CC3+ maps as png's? The built-in-option is not working for me. Also, CC3+ (just downloaded today) keeps crashing when I manipulate certain printing aspects. How do I make the map and grid so each grid cell is 1" diameter, and there are no borders when I print something larger than one page?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Recommend you engage support or jump into the Facebook group (support hang out there also) as save as png format should work. I don't have any experience with printing sorry. Everything I do is handled digitally on a TV table. Official support are excellent though and should have you sorted very quickly.

[@adamscaramella5160]

This is super useful, but when recording a video, you may want to consider increasing the size of you mouse pointer. Sometimes you move it so quickly that I have to keep rewinding to follow what you actually clicked on.

[@richarddreadskull8427]

Hi, I bought the Humble Bundle of the cc3+ software and I'm trying to link a Huion H950P tablet to it. I am trying to configure the tablet but when I do I get the msg (btm left msg bar) to go to the bottom left of the screen which I do but then nothing else happens. I have the pen set up with the buttons as left and right mouse buttons and have tested that they work elsewhere on my laptop. Can you give me some advise as to what I need to do as I'm at a loss. Thx

[@JoshPlunkett]

Sorry I have no experience with using thise devices. I recommend you reach out to Profantasy. Their support team is fantastic.

[@TheMugiwaraBoshi]

I know you explained how to place a mountain behind a tree if you get the placement order wrong, but how do you do that with multiple trees? For example, I want to place multiple tree, but I place a few wrongly and they overlap. They should be and stay on the same sheet, so how do you solve that easily?

[@EgeSayn]

there are buttons for them at the left side, like the blue and white squares. I am pretty sure their functionality is for that, but still I couldn't figure out how to use them.

[@tardisdavey]

Hey there, I know this is a really old video now so I am not expecting a response but I'm going to try my luck. I bought the CC3 plus package as part of a humble bundle, installed it and then I created an account with Pro Fantasy and linked my key to it incase I decide to buy some of the addons. Now I want to start building some cities using city designer but I don't know if I have access to the full tool or not. It appears in the actual program and I can see CC3+ DD3 and CD3 at the top next to save and print etcetra but in Pro Fantasy it doesn't say I own the DD3 or CD3 packages. Just wondered if I may be missing something or if CC3+ comes with like a basic package for both tools.

[@JoshPlunkett]

I'm not across how they are packaging the humble bundles these days, they appear to be custom packages created specifically for Humble Bundle. If you give my video on City Designed a watch though... from memory 🤔 the start of the video should show how to start a city map, that will be indication 1 that you have City Designer, then within the tool you should have the City Designer icons.

[@tardisdavey]

@@JoshPlunkett alrighty I shall take a look.

[@knightowl2407]

I just got CC3+ and my Menu is completely missing. I may have done something when messing around with the program. File, Edit, View, Draw, etc are all gone. It says FileCAD Menu File not found. I assume that there is a file out of place somewhere but idk where to start. Help would be appreciated.

[@JoshPlunkett]

Not something I know how to fix other than recommending a reinstall. Alternatively contact support or post in the Facebook group. They are quick to help.

[@KevinT-k5z]

great walkthrough!

[@TakoWeiss]

I got the Humble Bundle but i feel the program so Laggy you know how i can fix it

[@JoshPlunkett]

It might feel like lag but the program isn't designed to refresh in real-time. It might not feel like it now but its actually a feature. Once you get to the point of having a massive map with 10s of thousands of assets, its actually a benefit that it doesn't refresh instantly.

[@PennyTheGoblin]

I'm following this tutorial and I'm realizing my erase tool just isn't working on the icons. Clicking or using the bounding box won't let me select cities, lighthouses, etc. but it *will* select roads, landmasses, and even the map border. I'm using a clean fresh install of CC3 and the only things I can find online are "make sure your layers aren't frozen", which they shouldn't be if I'm making a totally new map. What gives?

[@XMaster340]

I know, this series is quite old, but here is a little bit of critique. You might want to use a bigger mouse pointer for tutorials. Its sometimes very difficult to follow where you're pointing at. Other than that, awesome tutorial. Thank you very much. I bought the tool on Humble Bundle and am still considering wether I want to use it for my maps or not. It seems extremely powerful, but the UI is just horrible. But with tutorials like this, I might be able to power through.

[@telinoz1975]

When you selected 300 x 300 at the start, what is the unit of measure? 300 miles? 300 km's? Or something else?

[@WDFrost-ns4gp]

I believe it's 300 by 300 miles

[@telinoz1975]

@@WDFrost-ns4gp thanks mate

[@WDFrost-ns4gp]

@@telinoz1975 Any time, and it can be done in km as well

[@SlackerDS]

Pixels, 300 pixels by 300 pixels, if he were to print it out on paper it would be roughly 3"x3" or 7.8cm x 7.8cm google has some handy measurement converters.

[@landonp629]

I prefer Inkarnate. The editor is much more modernized, and the usage for commercial purposes are not a strict.

[@JoshPlunkett]

I've tried it. It's just so restricted in its functionality. Can't stand it.

[@maciejbala477]

eh, the subscription service is a big no for me. Either buying it or nothing

[@fredericksparks6289]

Hello! I was curious as to which map is one of the best for doing a full world view?

[@JoshPlunkett]

It really depends on the style. I tend to change styles all the time depending on the mood I'm in.

[@fredericksparks6289]

@@JoshPlunkett Ugh, I've had this program for over three years now and still haven't figured out a lot, thank you so much for posting these more updated videos on it!

[@TypicallyThomas]

I'm a little confused. I get you have different map styles, I am not even prompted to select one I do have

[@JoshPlunkett]

I recommend joining the CC3+ Community Facebook Group. The devs help in there and the community is amazing. You can share screenshots and work through your problem much easier than in these comments.

[@TypicallyThomas]

@@JoshPlunkett I don't use Facebook

[@JoshPlunkett]

@@TypicallyThomas check their forums then perhaps. The devs are active there too.

[@maciejbala477]

@@JoshPlunkett you can tell it's an old program/community :p these days you'd have a Discord instead. wouldn't mind hanging around if that was the case but FB just seems so 2010 and i have not used it in forever so i don't think i will now

[@JoshPlunkett]

@maciejbala477 the develops of cc3+ would still only have the old forum if they had it their way. There was an attempt to setup a discord. But it was a ghost town.

[@reallyr8744]

It is autocad 2d with a slight difference. Thanks for the tutorial

[@argentum746]

Three Questions: Are they free and can someone recommend where to get some proper ones in the style of the Annual Herwin Wielink? I especially would need structures fitting to the Herwin Wielink Style. I need stuff like lumberhuts, quarries, mine entrances, Watermills, Mills etc (im building a map for an economic strategy game). Second question is about the size of the map. Is the Width and Height in mm or any other size? So i can measure beforehand how big the board will be and start a map with that size. It also makes it easier to scale all the symbols and textures. Not that a map with a central city i created for a 40x40cm board will turn out to be 3 times the size or just a quarter of it. I assume that the settings are in mm if you pick a metric one. But it seems to not give any info on it. It could also be a PC specific size. And finally: Is it somehow possible to create an isometric city in City Designer and then get into Cartographer to use it there? I couldnt find any isometric style, but the website shows a quite nice isometric city map with surrounding fields. My issue is, that i have to make one quite detailled city on the map but it has to be isometric like the other symbols/assets in CC3+ on the Herwin Wielink Style, while the rest doesnt need to be as expansive and detailled as its mostly just consisting of villages or small locations (like a Miningcamp). But that one city has to be relatively detailled and big, with visible streets and different buildingtypes. It would certainly help, aswell with all the other programs as they offer useful symbols. I got the complete bundle from HumbleBundle and just get started. Im a total beginner on such design programs.

[@FireDrawNear]

Great video, thanks a million!

[@tonyhsloanejr]

Can you do dungeon maps that look like they are on old parchment with this program that I could then print out?

[@JoshPlunkett]

I've seen it done yes. There are many styles. The one in the video comes with a B&W style for example and there is an Annual (DLC) that gives you pre-made parchments to use. You can of course just find a parchment background from the net and put your map on top of that also. Many options.

[@JohannesWiegerinck]

Pleaaaase, where can I download new map styles?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Johannes Wiegerinck go to the ProFantasy website and have a look at the annuals. Also join this group. Heap of helpful stuff pinned in the top post including the direct link to the free annuals. facebook.com/groups/1830466227284189/

[@JoshPlunkett]

Here's a direct link to the Annuals. There's free annuals linked from this page. www.profantasy.com/products/sub.asp

[@shaddi666]

I got the program but I don't have that map style your using, how come? Isn't it supposed to come with the program?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Did you install. Cc3+ and not cc3? Comes with +.

[@shaddi666]

@@JoshPlunkett It seemed it was something to do with an update to the program for some reason :D but it's fixed now thanks for the video by the way!

[@b003]

Does this generate random maps, cities etc?

[@JoshPlunkett]

The city designer 3 add on is designed for making towns a cities. There is an annual (DLC) available that adds random town and city functionality.

[@ketherga]

Can you do topographical maps?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Yes there are styles for Topographical maps. Check the annuals.

[@cobaltblues2121]

What are some things that CC3+ can't do or that are very difficult?

[@JoshPlunkett]

It's not a drawing program like GIMP / PSP so you can't 'draw' with as much freedom as you can in those programs. I've never really had a need to do this myself but i know some people struggle with the difference. I've yet to really find anything that I need to do that it can't do to be honest. Even things like replace all of one symbol with another symbol is there should you want to change a map style.

[@angriboi]

I really tried to understand this program, because I saw really beautiful maps made with it, but the controls are so abhorrently stupid, that I gave up.

[@JoshPlunkett]

Yeah the UI is certainly not up to days standards. If you can get over the learning curve you can certainly make fantastic maps but its very well known for it's complexity.

[@AntonioGiungato]

this should be re-uploaded at 1080p

[@christianbay310]

Thank you for the tutorial - after seeing how bad the UI is for this tool I'll find something else or just keep using a pen and paper

[@rats0155]

what volume is this?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Standard cc3+ using the Mike Schley Overland style.

[@rats0155]

@@JoshPlunkett wow thx for the fast reply :)

[@4_am]

found out it will redraw if you zoom on/out so no need to keep hiting the redraw button

[@MaterialHigh]

Thanks, this will be helpful

[@abrahmzugelj1073]

The Bob Ross of map painting

[@dangwancie4797]

Cool ASMR going on

[@fullmotioncinema7323]

bold of you to assume ive come from paint shop pro

[@JoshPlunkett]

Ms paint? 🙃

[@fullmotioncinema7323]

@@JoshPlunkett I think we all come from MS Paint at one point or another, but I learned about layers mostly from GIMP

[@feralwaffle]

oh dear after hours of downloading now i have to take a full computer course, your program could not be any less optimized.

[@Romdryl]

This might be based on the underlying software used to make CC3+ buy why on Earth are Sheets exactly backward from how things work in reality? The BOTTOM sheets are on top of the TOP sheets!? It's also mind boggling that standard language was ignored. Layers are not layers, they're groups, and sheets are actually layers. Just seems purpose built to confuse. Is this British vs. U.S. language?

[@JoshPlunkett]

Yeah the underlying software which has been around since the DOS days did it this way. Technically... this tool came before many of the other tools we are familiar with that calls things the other way around. It's confusing for those that come from those tools. For those that have been using this since the DOS days it simply has always been this way.

[@masikorski6411]

26:27 bless you

[@nosferadu]

Wow, this software seems really clunky and hard to use. Why not just use Photoshop?

[@JoshPlunkett]

The two are not the same. Coming into CC3+ thinking it should work like Paint Shop Pro will cause delays for sure. CC3+ is not about pixel manipulation. It's a vector program and is designed to speed the map making process up. It's designed specifically for the task. You can place a tree for example and the tree will automatically layer over the mountains and obtain a shadow effect.

[@Varaldar]

my main issue right now: its not fucking I N S T A L L I N G

[@JoshPlunkett]

Have you contacted support. They are very helpful.

[@Knittely]

The graphics look really nice, but tools seems really clunkly. Why not just have a "Select" option and then, I can immediately drag n drop, stuff. And when I right click, I get Delete / Edit Nodes / etc. You could even make shortcuts for these so I just select and then press Del for Delete. Instead you explain as. Select Delete Tool -> click on thing you want to delete and then -> right click -> do it. Way too many steps for such a simple operation. If the app is intelligent enough to know that some area has to be rerendered and makes it white. Why not just rerender that part? Todays PCs are good enough to handle that. For placing stuff like mountains, there should be an option to like spread paint Mountains with a random size between some numbers A and B + a distance at which a new mountain gets placed and than just keep the mouse pressed and swipe along the area you want your mountains to be. These are just sooo many simple tools, which provide a speed up which other map creation tools have. The landmass feature was the only one that looked like providing a good speed up for designing. I really like the artwork you have done, and was honestly considering buying this anyway. But I will have no fun using this.

[@willrichardson6344]

26:22

[@TheStormhalls]

Love the information but you really need to back off the mic. It was infuriating hearing every single lip smack and wet mouth noise while trying to get information. I'd invest in a pop filter and adjusting your distance from the mic.

[@Syllogyzym]

[@Redtecho]

SNEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZEEEEEEE

[@ritzenhauf]

ugh. complete UI redo CC folks please!

[@JoshPlunkett]

Cc4 is nearing close to release. I've not see it yet but hopefully they completely redid the ui. It needs love.

[@ritzenhauf]

It seems to revel in everything awful about interfaces from 20+ years ago

[@JoshPlunkett]

@@ritzenhauf I mean the original version off cc was in DOS. It's actually built on another cad product.

[@ritzenhauf]

that explains it!