Introduction to Rope Descending Devices

[@ActionAdventureTwins]

What i really like about the rappel rack is that if you let go of the rope for any reason the bars tend to bunch up and cause more friction slowing you down and making it much harder to fall. That Definitely saved me once already

[@Celessence]

Good to know it works like that.

[@brotherlove100]

very common in commercial rope access. It's a very simple and skookum design.

[@AndrewLitton]

This and your other videos are so insightful and full of knowledge all in one spot!

[@Celessence]

@@AndrewLitton aww thanks. 😊

[@heritagejonery3879]

The Petzl Stop dose not have adjustable friction. For extra fraction you need a braking carabiner or to use it with a petzl freino z, the latter being petzl preferred method now. If you use the handle as adjustable friction when descending it will knacker your ropes.

[@charleswhit2390]

Thank you! this was very informative and helpful

[@johnniedermeier9978]

Great instructional video! I also love the picture of the two of you eating the devices!! LOL

[@Celessence]

Thank you! yeah we love the devices that much (also don't have enough hands)

[@johnniedermeier9978]

@@Celessence 😄

[@brotherlove100]

fun video and great demos. I have never been able to figure out what the intent of the horns on classic figure 8s are for. Also, the world of ATC is just as populated as the 8 category. I taught my Scouts that since you alwyas have a belay partner, the person on the ground can always also fully control your descent should something happen to you. Yeah theyare very fast, but like you said, simple and cheap

[@Celessence]

yeah i don't descend with an 8 unless it's a beginner friendly rappel and i'm sacrificing myself giving my better descender (critr) to a newbie haha. but i always pop in an extra biner on the leg loop to add extra friction.

[@allisonwashington6816]

I was surprised that in the ‘no descender’ scenario you didn’t show a double carabiner break. I’m an old (started climbing in 1971) and back then there were no dedicated descending devices; the carabiner break was the standard rappel method.

[@Celessence]

HiI just looked it up, did not know this method existed. Looks like there are a couple of different ways to rig it too. Thanks for letting me know!

[@kevinrogan9871]

Same era here, used to use a channel piton on a large screw gate carabiner.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

The rack you showed has a dangerous feature, when you close them the bars clip onto the frame! That allows people to death rig them, ie put the rope in the wrong way. When they put their weight onto it the rope pops out immediately! The ones we used all had bars that swung freely.

[@Celessence]

Aye thanks. I wanted to show a regular full rack but was not able to borrow one. 😕

[@smitm0]

Might want to check out Conterras video "How to rappel with a Conterra Scarab®" before you get someone hurt. After trapping the rope with the crossbar, you always go to the forward horn, not the rear horn as you demonstrated.

[@Celessence]

Hi, thanks for comment, I just watched the video. Yeah I had asked Sandals Hiker (the dude in vid) to demonstrate because Scarab is actually his primary rappel device (done couple dozen canyons with it since he found the Scarab). He had watched 3 videos before he started using it.... apparently not THE video, and had discussed it with someone worked for SAR. I'll discuss such matter with him and the others as well.

[@jonnes__4657]

13:08 Maybe a backup with a Prusik knot. And please do not lead the holding rope via the screwed carabiner lock. Use the other side of the carabiner. .

[@Celessence]

Aye someone had pointed out the gate thing. I didn’t notice at the time. Thanks for letting me know 🙂

[@RawSauce338]

For a single person load should be easy to pull upward to brake and to lock off with half hitch, or half hitch + overhand. In caving, for short drops we don't usually ride a prussik down with our descenders, partly because we always to a rappel test while clipped to the rope with an ascender to test friction as it varies from device to device, rope to rope, and caver to caver.

[@jonnes__4657]

@@RawSauce338 It's a safety backup, if your body fails, e.g. a stone hits you. But you are right, it is not a must. A very small risk is always existing. .

[@harlanstockman5703]

?? the way she has the rope it will tighten the carabiner, if anything. I always keep the rope away from the gate, mainly by using the up brake hand position.

[@DuBCraft21]

This isn't too applicable to canyoneering, but you can add more friction to an ATC by clipping more carabiners into the rope. On a double rope rappel with an added ~100-150 lbs hanging off of me, using 2 biners (or one extra biner) gave me a fantastic descent. (I weigh 130 lbs, so the total was probably around 250lbs. I had so much crap on me because I was bailing off a bigwall climb)

[@Celessence]

Thanks! Good to know! I’ll have Sandal Hiker try 😁

[@Rafa_garciaaa]

That’s was a great video! Learned a lot about other devices

[@Celessence]

Aye thanks. I learned a lot making this video! Crash-course myself on the totem and re-demonstrating was the most challenging as i have no reception at the filming spot XD

[@KSJBtrades]

Awesome video, thank you!

[@Celessence]

Thanks for kind comment! 🥰

[@ErikKloeker]

Locking off the atc is easy, pull the stand thru the carabiner and tie a mule overhand knot on the top strand. I use it with the Edelrid Bullproof carabiner which has a dedicated steel rope wear plate on an aluminum carabiner.

[@Celessence]

Ah thanks that makes sense!

[@JoshuaJohnsonOutdoors]

Great video Guys, thank you. I've used a handful of those options quite a bit. Do you have any particular favorites?

[@Celessence]

Hi! Thanks. My go to is critr, for ease of adding friction. Brian likes Scarab for quick exit as well as having stainless/titanium options. He hates aluminum.

[@JoshuaJohnsonOutdoors]

@@Celessence thanks. I'm not a huge fan of aluminum either (at least for caving). I remember cutting into one badly on only a single rope length, descending into a cave.

[@Celessence]

@@JoshuaJohnsonOutdoors woooaaahhhh how long was the descend?? Aluminum is light to fling around but the dust could be annoying

[@ForestWanderer_YT]

Thank you for the video. Extremely informative! I subscribed!

[@Celessence]

Aww thanks!

[@ElpisMagna]

Hello guys. In the video, for both the Piranha and the Oka Kong, the rope must be passed through the small horn on the left, so that it creates friction. The figure eight must be put in a secure position and the rope will never be below the figure eight, facing the wall, it always goes with the loop on top to avoid the lark knot in case of hitting the wall. The Stop2 always comes with a braking carabiner, which I recommend the Freino Z or the Handy Raumer. If you have the opportunity to try the double eight, to lock and unlock in a flying rappel, it is much simpler and easier than the traditional eight. Regards from Alt Maresme (Catalonia)

[@Celessence]

Oh thanks I gotta try the double 8. Yeah I looked up the biner for the stop, cost like an arm and a leg… was told not required to have so I didn’t bother with it.

[@ElpisMagna]

@@Celessence Okk, thanks for the answer. If you have the opportunity, buy or try the double 8. This device, along with the Oka Kong, are my favorites for canyoning. Best regards, see U on the mountain.😎😎

[@Celessence]

oi thanks! See ya on the mountains, or in canyons!@@ElpisMagna

[@jordanross6286]

Like. I’ve never once in my climbing life thought “damn this gri gri/atc is just too heavy”

[@Celessence]

Some canyon people are soft 😂

[@martynwatson4929]

You can use the figure eight in an auto-stop mode, works very well.

[@Celessence]

Ah I just looked up a few other settings, didn't know they exist! Thanks. I guess I could have set up figure 8 the way I did the totem as well.

[@truc2fou915]

​@@Celessenceyou can add more friction to the figure 8 by rigging it as you've done and then clip the break strand into the carabiners that hold the 8. You can also add a lot of friction by doing running the break strand between the 8 and the loaded strand

[@holstblock.web3]

Cool selection of gear! Just at the end I really wished you used a prusik on the rope 🫣

[@Celessence]

ooh thanks, that reminds me i should probably make a video about prusik. I had some good and bad experiences....

[@geneo3654]

You can use a double rope on the sqwurel just use a 8mm to 9mm rope

[@Celessence]

The new sqwurel also made improvement with that too

[@petrklic7064]

Nice video. But, are those simple basic devices usable for thin 8mm rope ?

[@Celessence]

Hello! I’ve actually tried all (except atc and the mini-8s) on 8mm. Sandals dude probably should have mentioned that atc sucks for thin ropes. I would use the friction adjustable ones for doing an actual canyon.

[@petrklic7064]

@@Celessence Thanks. Most of manufacturers says in specs. that their descending device is for 9+ mm ropes. I think that it is because of significantly smaller friction of thinner rope. Plus i am significantly heavier than average climber 😄 I want to experiment with emergency (life-saving) rappelling with very thin aramid ropes. This is why i need rappelling device for those super-thin ones. I think that only Petzl-piranha and micro-eight is certified for 6mm ropes. ps: this video is very useful for beginners like me. Plus those "exotic" (but useful) devices are generally unknown in europe and amongst common european climbers. They are using only that basic fgure-8 and "pro-cavers" are using that Petzl-stop device.

[@Celessence]

@@petrklic7064 I c. I’m pretty sure most these rappel devices are good for 8mm. Most canyon ropes nowadays seem to go between 8 and 9. Caving ones are around 10. The mini-8s are specialized for 6mm. But yeah this is a super quick intro for complete newbs 😄

[@geomk3]

Very helpful, Thanks!

[@peterredder9757]

Your 'ATC' is actually a DMM Pivot. The ATC (made by Black Diamond) does not have a loop. The ATC Guide does have a loop, but it does not have a hinge (as the Pivot does). All of the devices I mention are easy for adjusting friction, with either 1or 2 ropes. But they are lightweight, so they can not absorb a lot of heat during a long descent. Sorry to be that ranting guy :)

[@Celessence]

Hi! So Sandals guy asks- how does the extra loop help with heat dissipation or adjusting friction?

[@peterredder9757]

The purpose of the loop is to use the device to belay in "guide mode" (i.e. bealying your partner(s) from above). I guess the loop also adds a tiny bit of mass, which in theory will help heat dissipation a tiny amount. @@Celessence

[@Celessence]

@@peterredder9757 I see thanks!

[@Isaac_L..]

The Petzel stop should always be used with a breaking carabiner (like a freino Z, raumer handy, or a steel non-locking carabiner). Use without one could result in a uncontrolled descent. Also the stop feature should generally not be trusted as a full hands free lockoff.

[@Celessence]

Yes def do a proper lock if going hands free

[@rauliuxaa]

How about ascending devices? Any recommendations?

[@Celessence]

@@rauliuxaa ooh yeah… imo they all seem similar. Like all major brand hand ascenders, chest ascenders, foot ascenders. I don’t find them to be too diff from each other and rating (for forces) all seem to be similar too. I did consider making an ascender vid but decided it’s be pretty boring.

[@rauliuxaa]

@@Celessence makes sense, do you have any recommendations? I've used the chest one's in my work long time ago which was quite expensive, but i'll be going for alpinism trip and just need a simple one to cross some crevasses and go up like no more than 100ft in the trip that i'm aiming at, i'll be using ice axe and crampons asw, so was wondering what kind should i get? Figure 8 wil do just fine for regular descending, can't figure out what to get for asc part . Any recommendations?

[@Celessence]

@@rauliuxaa oh sorry I don’t know much about alpinism. For caves and canyons, we use Petzl, Climbing Technology, Camp… etc

[@rauliuxaa]

@@Celessence thanks for the heads up :)

[@Dev_Anand_C]

Thanks

[@RawSauce338]

Caver here, we also have some HUGE racks rated for either very very deep single pitch pits (~600ft+) or for rescue operations. The Petzl Stop is a "Bobbin" style descender, and you can find similar bobbin devices from other manufacturers, with and without brake assist.

[@Celessence]

Aye thanks for comment. Yeah I wanted to also borrow a bigger rack to show for the video but no success. I've tried another "bobbin" style descender where you squeeze the lever rather than pulling it. That suuuuucked as I have small forearm muscles, and it felt jerky too.

[@starfilmsanimation]

@@Celessencethe non locking bobbins are nicer because it allows a free hand. The old style stop you mentioned is nice because you can lock out the brake.

[@harlanstockman5703]

There is an ATC with a high friction mode, but you can't change it on the fly! I tend to use a munter (too much) with the hand in the "up" position for more friction. I think that is the "German" position. I'm sure there is an ethnic joke there.

[@Celessence]

Like mega-Jul and gigs-Jul? Oh I hate them, they don’t let you move lol. Munter on a carabiner is so bad tho, burn the heck out of the carabiner, def a last resort thing.

[@harlanstockman5703]

@@Celessence try munter with the brake hand up... just to have a better last resort!

[@gerkyll]

descender eight is incorrectly placed! it get stuck if you use it like that.

[@Celessence]

It does have to make a smiley when facing you doesn’t it?

[@zanetracks6592]

If you already have a carabiner, why bother with other devices?

[@Celessence]

Cause rappelling with a biner kind of suck lol. No friction adjustment on the fly and it gets HOT! Feels a bit jerky too. Although I learned about super Munter after I made this vid supposed to be smooth….

[@zanetracks6592]

@@Celessence I found w super munter you can avoid the jerkiness, by holding the tail end straight towards you rather than downward. I'm using 8mm Oplux w a 3" oval screw lock and it's smooth sailing that way.

[@miguelllorente549]

Hi there! Please check min 13:06. I'd rather not have my rope playing with the biner's gate ;-) Keep sharing vids!

[@Celessence]

Oi, didn’t even catch that 👍. Good catch

[@harlanstockman5703]

That is one reason I use the "up" hand position with a munter. Even if I screw up on tying, I don't have the rope untightening my gate.

[@harlanstockman5703]

Again, the way she has the rope it will tighten, not unscrew the gate.

[@sergeig685]

12:12 You are joking, right? At least half the friction is actually on the ATC itself, more so when you are braking. If you ever rappelled with one you know how hot it gets. Compared to other miniature rappel devices shown in this video it offer just as much heat decipation. There was no mention of how any of the devices pig tail the rope, which is also one of the major features/bugs of their designs. No mentions locking off. No mention that titanium is actually a very poor heat conductor. And from presentational point of view, ending every statement with a question mark (raising voice), just cringy

[@Celessence]

Thanks for feedback. This is a real quick presentation video for descenders (as requested), not for teaching. If I include every set up and lock off and flaws of these descenders it'd be an hour long. There are plenty videos on YT if anyone is interested in learning more in depth of any particular descenders I had shown. I also had posted links for them. As for ATC, I don't use it, the dude who presented it has been a climber and had been using them for years. I don't mean to end statement with raising voice, but will take note. I don't normally talk in my videos.

[@harlanstockman5703]

Some of your criticisms seem backwards. ATCs get so hot because they have relatively little mass (hence low total heat capacity) and low surface area. They DO NOT dissipate that heat well via radiative transfer and air conduction-convection. Nearly half of the available surface area is shielded from radiative transfers. The “friction” they provide is *partly* from surface friction, but at least half is from internal friction, aka bending and reshaping the rope. I’m don't understand your point about the low thermal conductivity of titanium. Heat transfer in sliding systems is very complicated; energy goes into both rope and device. But in a system with a rope sliding past metal, the lower the thermal conductivity of the metal, the more heat is likely to be carried away in the rope. Unless you are doing drop tests on a DONDERO, it’s a good thing when heat goes into the sliding rope. I’ve done the calculations; even substituting low-alloy steel for aluminum makes a big difference. If manufacturers of titanium devices found their products were getting unreasonably hot, they wouldn’t make them. Note this is about descenders for canyoneering. Few people use tube-style devices like the ATC for canyoneering anymore, and some rope manufacturers forbid them for Dyneema-core ropes. The problem is that the bends are so extreme that a core and sheathe with dissimilar friction coefficients may get separated. Would you rather canyoneer with an ATC or an ATS? ATCs absolutely don't work with the 6mm rope That's what they were using with the "tiny" devices. As for the “cringy” part: note her native language is Mandarin, in which this intonation is common. To English-speakers, Slavic languages may seem “booming.” I suggest we’ll all be better off if we commend people who have learned to speak English, after being raised to speak something else.

[@sergeig685]

@@harlanstockman5703 I have used a number of devices in this video and would absolutely take an ATC over some of them. However the video made it sound like it is the ATC that is the most unusable device of the bunch, which is completely untrue. It has more weight and provides larger heat absorption. I highly doubt that a micro 8 does any better in the heat department. But speaking of which, that micro provides poor stoping power, and absolutely horrid rope pig tailing. Which resulted in my switching to a back up ATC on one of canyoneering trips. The titanium can actually be considered an insulator compared to AL, which most other devices are made from. Aluminum's heat transfer is 210 W/m-K, compared to titanium's 17 W/m-K. Meaning that the heat generated at points of contact with the rope does not actually transfer well throughout the device for decipation. Which results in hot spots. My reference to cringe could definitely be better worded. But as a non-native English speaker myself I can clearly hear that she has good command of the English language, probably at least a decade of living in the country. This manner of speaking is actually specific to certain younger group of native English speaking Americans. It absolutely discredits the presenter, making them sound unconfident and unfamiliar with the subject. Sorry, I'm only trying to help here, if in impolite manner.

[@harlanstockman5703]

​@sergeig685 "My reference to cringe could definitely be better worded." -- understatement of the year. But back to your technical statements: An ATC is much lighter than most of the the figure eight-derived devices in this video, and produces far more severe bending. Again, the really small devices are meant for 6mm ropes, as mentioned in the vid. "The titanium can actually be considered an insulator compared to AL, which most other devices are made from. Aluminum's heat transfer is 210 W/m-K, compared to titanium's 17 W/m-K." First note that the totem used in this video is aluminum; the presenter just *mentions* that there is a titanium version. That's it; it hardly deserves much discussion. (EDIT: I think she means there is a Ti scarab; the scarab used in this vid is stainless.) Second, thermal modeling of sliding surfaces is more complicated than just a comparison of the thermal conductivities. . About half the heat is created at the interface, and some of that goes into the rope, and some into the metal. The low heat transfer coefficient of Ti means that very little heat will move into the titanium. The rope has an even lower thermal conductivity, *but* there is constant replacement at the interface by new, cold rope; the higher the thermal gradient, the more heat wants to partition into the rope. A tiny amount of Ti right at the interface may have a formally high temperature, but the heat stored in that metal will move very slowly. When I did the calculations with aluminum versus 316 stainless (about a factor 3 conductivity difference), about 25% of the heat went into the rope for aluminum, versus 75% for 316 (dependent on the relative speed at the interface), and the 316 actually stayed cooler. Bear in mind this only matters if the relative speed of the materials at the interface is high; else the device does not get that hot. Third, and *most important*... don't you think the manufacturers of titanium devices have run experiments? This is a case where I *much* more trust the results of experiments.

[@Krekkertje]

The guy has a habit of attaching the belay device upside down so tends to twist his belay loop.

[@Celessence]

We both have canyon specific harness now 🙂

[@andrew8445]

I changed my volume 50 times throughout this and might have ear damage

[@Celessence]

🥲😅 sorry bout that. A friend of mine did make such complain and recommended microphone. I have ordered media mod and microphone, just came in.

[@bodhimedia1]

Your standing on your rope. 😬

[@Celessence]

Eh? But I do all the time

[@DavidWilliams-wr4wb]

nobody ever want to hear descending device and recall in the same sentence lol

[@Celessence]

@@DavidWilliams-wr4wb aye that’s why it gone~~~ 🙂

[@DavidWilliams-wr4wb]

@ 😋

[@jordanross6286]

Christ Jesus. What’s wrong with just the atc or gri gri??

[@Celessence]

Ikr 🤣 the more involved in the canyon community the more descenders I find! Just the past couple months I encountered at least 3 more. Atc is doable for shorter raps with thicker ropes. With long rappels and thin/fast ropes hard to add friction on the fly n burn up quickly. Grigri tho, really twist n twirl ropes (not to say none of the others do but in lesser degree). Short raps ok but long raps with group not ideal.