IOHK | Cardano whiteboard; Sidechains, Dionysis Zindros.

[@Elanordt]

Team of geniuses! I'm on the board with full support since 0.10$. Good job guys!

[@greggybone72]

Right on, I bought in at $0.07, 0.11, 0.17, 0.42 and planning to buy more before it makes it back past $1

[@Xxp0r]

Fantastic presentation, it just added to my excitement of Cardano. We cannot wait to write some applications with Cardano! :D!

[@duudleDreamz]

Great presentation. Thanks Dionysis, just the right level of detail for me. Love the simple whiteboard presentation format; these ideas are plenty powerful and beautiful on their own (no need for fancy music nor exploding hyper-colorful graphics). Please, please IOHK, give us more transparency-adding videos like this.

[@patrickfilo1221]

I love this team so much, straight to the point and they upload these informative videos so frequently, glad to be stockholder for cardano!!!

[@sebalang]

Weellll...You are not really a stockholder, are you?

[@leonmoore9848]

The Cardano team are in a different league...... its scary how detailed these guys are.

[@davidover2223]

Thanks for taking the time to share your work Dionysis, looks like this has huge potential.

[@YoungGrizzly]

simply amazing what they are doing for the space by just solving issues in a scientific and peer reviewed manner. You can see that before it even gets to us the idea or concept has been worked through quite a bit.

[@rohanredkar1697]

Thank you for doing this! Really helpful to understand the concept of side chains and especially the difference between CSL and CCL.

[@amenostalgique]

Can't wait to see a crypto ecosystem with sidechains implemented all over the place

[@Kah0ona]

Hi Dionysis. This talk is superb, thanks for all the insights!

[@MarkusGufler]

the solid foundations and well thought-out concepts become revealed

[@georgeramosjr6764]

Interesting video. Please keep me posted on all future happenings with Cardano. Thank you!

[@octoman_games]

One the aspects that makes Cardano ADA such a potential endeavor is the ability to add new protocols and utilities without having to hard fork into a new project as we see with Ethereum and its 2000 variants. 90% of coins out there are ETH with their own spin and twists.

[@vecseibertalan5576]

Awesome research work on sidechains, truly innovative & disruptive! Congratulations.

[@stephan2719]

This is an amazing whiteboard session. Kudos Dionysis Zindros!

[@mossfree]

Fantastic! I can't wait to see the project go live in underdeveloped countries. ADA is the best, and you are doing it for the right reasons. Ignore the haters and push forward!

[@PasKualo23]

Enlightening introduction and very well explained. Thank you!

[@Dave-ni6jj]

Excellent talk and overview. Thank you.

[@ryanwdavies1]

Brilliant presentation. Thank you very much.

[@TheArtOfTrading]

Extremely interesting stuff, thanks for taking the time to make these videos!

[@29snowrider]

That was amazing. Learned a ton. Can't wait for more.

[@UniNetwork]

great lesson. I wonder if can also add "security" as sidechain characteristic, as a sidechain may have a bug or get hacked and it does not affect the main-chain or other sidechains.

[@crazyden2345]

This channel deserves 10x more subs at least !

[@sonicflash5090]

Cardano Has a great team, these guys are all experts in their fields

[@MattPrego]

Thanks for making these white board videos!

[@marcuspi999]

Nice lecture. Thanks Dionysis.

[@givemeakawasaki]

Very nice! thankyou Dionysis

[@68walter]

Very good explanation! Thanks!

[@rickmccabe6839]

Very good intro. Should definitely have more than 6k views!!

[@jonathancmclane]

I thought of a fun analogy. If you understand how a sport works and watch a highlight real of amazing plays, you have some proof that many games have been played to create the number of amazing plays you are seeing without having seen every game.

[@XandarXam]

Excellent presentation! So well explained!

[@mattym00]

Great info on sidechains! Thank you..

[@rickcea1223]

Excellent lecture...Thank you!!!

[@bebopwestern]

Amazing presentation.

[@vc6606]

exciting stuff! thanks for the awesome presentation

[@criticalthinkingalways3378]

Keep up the great work🤜🔥🤛😎

[@JasonWhittle1]

Holy shit. This is amazing!

[@trigger357]

Awesome Lecture!!! I Love the vision! Keep it up gents!

[@jeffski143]

Hi Dionysis, pls forgive my ignorance, if Sidechains can be able to move & back assets w/o going trough a counterparty, does it mean you are removing the convenience of staking & mining? I also want to question how secure it is? For example, privacy coins like Verge & DeepOnion are using TOR Network, because we all know that Btc & Eth are vurneralbe to hackers, as they can easily view & trace our assets. Is Sidechains have other solution for this?

[@dionyziz]

Hi Jeff. I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say "the convenience of staking & mining". However, sidechains will still involve staking in the Cardano network. Therefore, there will be proofs-of-stake both in the mainchain, which in our first iteration will be the Cardano Settlement Layer, as well as the sidechain, which in our first iteration will only be a single one, the Cardano Computation Layer. As for security, this is usually an issue separate from privacy. The security of the sidechains pertains to the consensus algorithms, thereby disallowing double spending. This is something we will prove mathematically in the next paper we will release. Your concern about the privacy of the transactions and their owners is a different topic. While Daedalus doesn't run over Tor by default, there is no limitation on doing that, for example through an operating forcing the use of Tor such as Tails. As there are no technical limitations for this, it could possibly become an option of the wallet in the future. For this, you will have to refer to the plans of the daedalus wallet developers. Sidechains are an orthogonal issue to this.

[@apodim8874]

Μπράβο Διονύση!

[@notker88]

Who does mine the Sidechain blocks from the CL in the case of Cardanos CSL and CL. Is it somehow merge-mined?

[@jakubvit]

Interesting talk. Thank you. I have a question about PoPoW: How do you proof that the value of T which you used to proof the current blockchain state is the actual value the main network is using?

[@dionyziz]

Great question. The explanation in the video uses the simplifying assumption that T is constant in the execution, i.e., it works for fixed difficulty chains. This is also the simplifying assumption made in the NIPoPoWs paper as well as the PoPoWs paper from FC16. If T is variable (as in the Backbone with Variable Difficulty model), then the proofs become more complicated. This is an open research question that we're actively looking into and are hoping to solve. I do believe NIPoPoWs are possible to create for variable difficulty T. However, certificates of difficulty adjustment will have to be included in the proof; a way to indicate the shift of difficulty. This is easier to do in proof-of-stake settings where the only thing to account for is the shifting of stake, so I believe we're going to be attacking that problem first.

[@vecseibertalan5576]

Just one more minor observation (irrelevant from the great sidechains explanation presented), the Proof-of-Steak consensus capability belongs to the Scalability topic, while Upgradability is a sub-topic under Sustainability (along with Treasury, Architecture Modularity and other stuff).

[@GeorgeN678]

i seriously believe in this project almost as much as i believe in bitcoin

[@pkosmasjr]

this was a beautiful talk Dionysis, thank you! very clear and concise. I am curious if the different algorithms for PoW sidechains creates a concern? And if so, does this same friction occur if between PoW and PoS sidechains?

[@dionyziz]

Each PoW algorithm will require a different PoPoW, but, in principle, all of them are provable, as long as the underlying hash function (such as SHA256², scrypt, or ethash) can be validated within a smart contract. As for PoW/PoS, it is possible to create interfaces between such chains, but a proof of proof will need to be created for the source chain. So, if the source chain is PoW, then the proof will be a PoPoW; if the source chain is PoS, then the proof will be a PoPoS. These proofs are then posted on the destination chains regardless of the consensus algorithm used there.

[@rachell8248]

Thanks for the great information.

[@AlexIstMeinName]

great video 👍

[@cireasa85]

Why not tracking the amounts moved from main chain to side chain? Not the owner, just the amount of ADA. What if the hack that created new amount manages to move them to the main chain first. Means the true movements will remain blocked in the side chain, considered fake?

[@dionyziz]

Correct. This is only in the case of a catastrophic failure on the part of the sidechains, an extremely unlikely event. In that case, all bets about the correctness of the sidechains are off - and we just want to protect the main chain against arbitrary money creation.

[@BarelyCrafty]

Great video Dionysis & IOHK Team! I've become an addict of your content lately and a HUGE Cardano fan. :) I've got two questions though. Please bear in mind that i'm NOT a mathematician/scientist/programmer - far from it. 1. What concerns me personally is a "firewall" property mentioned by you around 18:00 min into the video as well as around 45:00 min. Is it really enough to ensure that the max amount of ADA that can be brought back to the main chain 'A' from the sidechain 'B' can not exceed the amount of ADA previously moved from main chain A to sidechain B? Let's say that 9 good guys and 1 bad guy moved 100k ADA collectively (let's assume 10k each) from the main chain A to less secure chain B with some additional features. Then bad guy exploits the weakness of said sidechain B and creates 90k more ADA than he should be able to. So there is now 190k ADA on the sidechain B instead of 100k. Bad guy knows about the firewall properties in place so all he has to do is move his 10k of real ADA and 90k of fake ADA back to the main chain A. The firewall limit has been reached and the honest guys with 90k of real ADA are stuck on the sidechain B until more real ADA in transfered into it. 2. Could you please clear up how will sidechains work with the PoS as a whole? Will PoS work on the main chain only? That would work for scalability, not upgradability though. Will you be able to choose on which (side)chain you will stake your coins? That would make upgradabilyty possile, but suddenly those other sidechains we might not like and/or agree with are not as insignificant the "main chain community" as they seemed at first. Thea are not just ADA 'accounts' we don't have to care about at all if we don't want to. Those sidechains might make our main chain to die off at some point (significanlty lessening our chances of earning ADA in PoS). If I got it all wrong and I make no sense at all - I appologize. :) Just trying to better understand Cardano.

[@xcarxcar]

I have the same question regarding your first question. I'd like to hear how they plan to avoid "laundering" from the side chain into the main if in the rare case of a breach in protocol occurs on the side chain.

[@dionyziz]

1. Indeed. The firewall property only protects against "catastrophic failures", an extremely unlikely event. In that case, all bets about the honesty of the sidechain are off, so the main chain only wishes to protect itself against arbitrary money creation. The owners of money in the sidechain do not have any insurance in that situation. 2. PoS will be done both on the sidechain and the mainchain. Stakers will be creating blocks on both. The exact rewards schedule as well as which stake will be used for staking are questions to be determined. For example, whether one needs to move their stake off the main chain and into the sidechain to stake, or if the money can still be used if it's on the mainchain, is an open research problem. We're actively working on answering these questions and publishing on this topic.

[@DARKPRINCEizBACK]

I have a query. When you move currency around, you basically peg the value. How do you determine the value of the currency that you are going to peg? When we transfer Bitcoin in ETC chain, is the intact bitcoin or its equivalent ETC value?

[@robbinschinkel8480]

Watch it again. You missed some things.

[@dionyziz]

When you move a bitcoin to the ETC blockchain, its value will remain one bitcoin.

[@ihateartxyz]

This was great. Thankyou.

[@andriirubtsov5404]

Thanks for great video. Personally I liked the elegant ideas with T/2^k PoPoW as well as suggested smooth migration/ introduction of BitcoinCash via sidechain. What remains not so clear to me is how the one would be able to represent 1BTC in ETC blockchain? Via smart contracts ERC20 (or similar) holding all mappings from BTC addresses to balances? Also am I right that in the hypothetic example with BCH sidechain the value of BTC would always be equal to BCH, because of inherent ability of moving the value between chains?

[@dionyziz]

Yes, a BTC would be represented in the ETH blockchain using ERC-20. And, yes, you are correct in that, if you retain the asset's nature through a 2-way peg, then BCH and BTC will always have the same value. Very insightful observations.

[@antoncigur3727]

I have one question: you exchange 1 coin for another, as you said, but still you have 1 btc in the "btc to etc_sidechain" example, so you just moved that bitcoin, you didn't exchange it, am I right? I think I've missed something there. Beside this, keep up with the good work and good luck to all the Cardano guys!

[@bradbear]

This is great! Keep them coming. I do have a question about PoPow and PoPos. If the tokens in the main chain are destroyed when they are transferred to the side chain, what happens if the PoPow fails on the side chain? Is there a loop back that tells the main chain to not destroy the tokens because they weren't accepted? Thanks so much!

[@dionyziz]

Hi Brad. The validity rules of the sidechain must be such that all valid outgoing coins from the main chain should be accepted on the side chain. Therefore, there is no reason to have a way to recover coins.

[@Moriadin]

brilliant

[@Cryptocraze-ic5hp]

it's official ADA is my next choice of main accumulation of coins in my portfolio next to LTC.

[@taxalutetaxes110]

Some genius stuff. Wow

[@samuelschmid5827]

Thanks for the great video about Sidechains! As NIPoPoW is designed for PoW systems and not Proof of Stake Systems like Cardano, how do you plan to implement Sidechains for Cardano SL?

[@dionyziz]

This requires some new primitives - in particular NIPoPoS, non-interactive proofs of proof-of-stake. This is something we're actively looking into.

[@noyb154]

You didn't explain how a token can be both ETC and BTC at the same time. How can you fund an ICO with a bitcoin when the ICO only accepts ETC?

[@gage5650]

holy shit. impressive.

[@solitary200]

How would you deal with malicious sidechains? Let's say Bitconnect created its own sidechain with the intention of stealing BTC. Also is it conceivable for a sidechain to operate with PoW instead of PoS if the mainchain is using PoS?

[@dionyziz]

The sidechain cannot "steal" funds, unless a user consciously moves their money to the sidechain by creating a transaction that moves the money to the sidechain. Yes, sidechains can operate with PoW instead of PoS. This is why PoPoW is needed - to interface with such chains.

[@jonathancmclane]

Do the burn transactions indicate what chain the burned coins are going to?

[@jonathancmclane]

Nevermind, they must in order to ensure the firewall

[@notker88]

At the upgradeability part I was like wooow :D

[@aochiai]

How to avoid multiple Coin creation on multiple sidechains?

[@JamalulkhairKhairedin]

Is sidechain an intellectual property of blockstream?

[@10secondsrule]

Excellent work!... but why I do have an impression there’s a guy pointing ak47 on the other side of a camera?;)

[@dionyziz]

I think that's one of the huge microphones they used while I was doing the talking. I promise there was no gun on my head during this presentation :D

[@alfred55]

Thanks for uploading these videos they're extremely educational and helpful. I do have one question though on the catastrophic failure example where a hacker creates a huge amount of ADA on the sidechain. You mentioned that there is a firewall that limits the amount of ADA that can be transferred back to the main chain, but if the network is large enough, wouldn't the hacker still be able to move at least a majority of this falsely created ADA at the expense of other users who are using the sidechain? Or wouldn't that mean that if something like this happens, that the whole sidechain needs to be shut down? Because as long as people continue to send ADA from the main chain and use it, the hacker would be able to slowly siphon his fake ADA back into the main chain. The firewall gets triggered and honest people who were using the sidechains have their ADA stuck. Additionally, even if the hacker has no way to bring back his fake ADA into the main chain, can't he just use it for other purposes on the sidechain?

[@dionyziz]

Correct. A "catastrophic" failure is a total collapse of the sidechain's security properties. This is an extremely unlikely event. If that happens, we don't want the main chain to be affected. However, all other bets are off.

[@888dd4]

This is great.

[@cicero1930]

keep it up

[@인흑-s3s]

가즈아

[@wattoarslan4557]

Woww

[@guanghuaguo7349]

good

[@yijunma419]

is it similar to rsk？

[@YggOrr]

This is some complicated shit. I hope you guys can pull this off.

[@vinhvoduy7391]

Great presentation. If you guys don't have time to watch full of this video, you may start here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmWnY3WGaJiMf5o. These are about application usages

[@chansonkun7989]

illumination

[@joejingojack]

Why regulated cardano pops to my suggestion box without being interested to it..?

[@MrTiomanisland]

From the first 10 minutes of watching I can see that you will try to get bitcoins to other blockchains and kill poor bitcoin LOL. Brilliant idea but I don't think bitcoin team would agree - they have to change the code to support this and they won't. Fork will I guess? Wow... that will be real war...

[@TheArtOfTrading]

It's not just for Bitcoin. This demonstration is just using Bitcoin as an example. The whole point of this is to make all blockchains inter-operable. That's a good thing for all crypto, so it would be in BTC's best interest to enable this feature and would make BTC far more utilizable. I personally would be far more inclined to use some of my Bitcoin if it were cross-chain compatible, rather than just leaving it all sit in my hardware wallet collecting dust

[@dionyziz]

One thing to note here is that BTC doesn't need to do any forks to enable coins moving out of the chain, as we can create PoPoWs using a "velvet fork", which doesn't require miner approval. But, as Zenarchist already mentioned, Im merely using BTC as an example here. The first application will be the Cardano Settlement Layer as the main chain and the Cardano Computational Layer as the sidechain.

[@xstinkypoopx784]

stinky was here

[@JoshYates]

ok, I can not code and listen to this in the background. I need to pay attention when not coding. I'm talking to myself and not the forum.

[@crypto01]

FIrst!