Ionity Charging 69p Isn't An Issue For Me! Infact, It Makes Sense!

Dig into the reason & the fact that a lot of people WON'T be paying 69p per kWh & I have no issues with their pricing model.

[@stephenfleming7056]

Thinking of an electric car next, It does put me off though that I would have to pay a subscription to several suppliers when all I want to do is park up swipe my debit card and pay the charge and pay no more, I also have no interest in messing about with apps on my phone ( I have none LOL) ZAP maps I expect to be on the cars satnav. I can pick and chose my petrol stations and have no subscriptions to any, and if I pay cash, debit or credit card its the same price. I take your point on fast and rapid chargers speed of delivery but don't think its a issue if you just want a charger, its like waiting at the station for a free pump or somebody buying a weeks shopping in front of you at the till.

[@paulrautenbach]

With petrol, everyone pays the premium non-member rate. Another way of doing things.

[@stephenfleming7056]

@@paulrautenbach The market rate ( what they can get away with ).

[@watcher24601]

It's like insurance companies demanding to know in advance how miles will be driven in a year! I am not a sooth sayer, I just want to get in the car and drive it. Mobile phone subscriptions are equally ridiculous, should just buy a phone and have access to everything. But the real world isn't like that

[@davidholden2658]

I own an electric car and don't pay for any subscriptions. Get a NewMotion card which works on several networks and use that. You may need to use some apps though, that's almost unavoidable. Subscriptions aren't necessary though although they can work if you do a lot of miles and use a particular charging network regularly. If you have off road parking at home get a charger installed and you'll only have to charge at public stations on long journeys. Most months I only charge at home, at work or at local supermarkets which have free charging.

[@LoudValves]

@@stephenfleming7056 yes, and once EV.s are the norm in a decade or so, the corporate world will apply the same rules to electricity that they currently apply to petrol/diesel... they will ALWAYS get their pound of flesh, it is just a critical mass numbers game . Where I live (New Zealand) the govt. will impose Road User Charges ( as is put on diesel vehicles) here from Jan 2021.... rather than supporting or encouraging EVs they will be taxed the same as diesel vehicles.... got to get that tax income somehow ........

[@Markle2k]

You have neglected one aspect of Ionity membership: the 20 Euro per month subscription price with a minimum term of one year. That's 240 Euros you are obligated to pay for access to the lower tariff on the fast chargers. It changes the economic argument if you don't regularly take long trips. Granted, there is a lower tier of 60 Euros per year for the cars that cannot take advantage of the 150+ kW chargers.

[@marklola12]

Exactly, it is the same way why people have been telling me EV cars are cheaper too run BUT I have not got one yet because for ME they really would not be cheaper lol For instance I currently have a 2007 2.2 civic, since getting it in may 2016 I have only put about 15k on the clock, each month I get paid I only put maybe £25 of diesel in...I usually have just before I fill up maybe 20 mile left in the tank...so getting a electric car to save on fuel costs for me really.....its not worth it Also comes the worst which is car insurance.....for me I pay £50 a month for my 2.2 diesel car and it is the same price for any other car as I have checked a few models both diesel and petrol BUT when I check the price for a EV I have tested all cars other then the expensive ones which I will never afford insurance is from £100 to £120 a month lol no way I would ever pay that and this all destroys the saying that EV cars are cheaper to run...for me personally anyway people say oh it is free road tax...I pay £12.20 a month which is a amount that really is so small it means nothing...it is hardly a saving If it was not for the insurance costs being over double what I pay now I would get a i3 rex as that is really the only one I like the look of out of the current batch. I need a new car by may so I will end up going with my ICE choice a A class which again is cheaper per month than any electric car.

[@Markle2k]

@@marklola12 Congratulations on being an extreme outlier. Your personal circumstances are probably not relevant to 90 percent of the public at a minimum. Certainly not to EV owners who have reason to avoid Ionity chargers, but can charge at other outlets.

[@macioluko9484]

@@Markle2k Absolutely. marklola12 is either describing a fictional account or he's an extreme variation.

[@dwaneanderson8039]

If you don't take many long trips, then the 69p/kWh price isn't a big deal. You'll only use it when it's worth it for you.

[@Markle2k]

@@dwaneanderson8039 There are other alternatives. Plus, these chargers were mandated to be put in place not as a voluntary business investment, but as penance for cheating the emissions rules in Dieselgate. A significant of the investment capital was also supported by taxpayer money.

[@RobertOw83]

I must admit, I was one of the up in arms, but this has put it all into perspective - very soundly argued and a fair point.

[@bbbf09]

Except that he has completely failed to point out you must pay a hefty monthly subscription fee to be a member - which for most low to average motorway users (Less than 200 mile p.m.) makes his argument non sensical.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

bbbf09 My argument was that it made sense, not that it’s cheap or what people ‘think’ it should be. Ecotricity was cheap and look at what happens to a network that’s not made any money! You want that all do you?

[@tyrantwitness2482]

Andy one of the reasons the legacy manufacturers wouldn't use the #Tesla charging network and thought they would come up with their own is because they have too much pride ! How dare this young upstart tech company take on the classic car companies! Who do they think they are ! Well we all know what comes before a fall don't we ! Add to that they probably thought some company that makes space vehicles, won't manage to mass produce cars ! The legacy manufacturers are trying to hold back #EVs and Tesla is full steam ahead !

[@yoyyaesta4808]

Then you have been tricked. Ionity is expensive and its system complex and perverse.

[@Dave-in-France]

@@bbbf09 Yes but surely if they are lower mileage users and IF they have off-road parking then they will be a. charging at home and be most recent EV's will give at least 200 urban mls per charge.

[@cryptogimp1493]

Thanks for explaining the reasons. Makes sense. So my next and first ev will be Tesla 👍

[@HenriZwols]

I don't like the idea of car brand specific charging networks. I don't like Tesla doing it and I don't like VAG doing it. It means that I have to locate a fast (rapid as you Brits call them) charger for the brand of my car instead of the nearest. It also means that at popular places there will be more fast chargers than needed. Because Tesla will have their chargers, Ionity, Rivian, Nissan/Renault etcetera. In the Netherlands we simply have FastNed, which are open to all. Like a petrol station is open to any brand and doesn't charge Ford less for petrol for example.

[@AnonYmous-rw6un]

You just need manufacturer commitment to volume, and you'll end up with a good network. EVs only work at scale with home and destination charging anyway, so you don't need the same coverage to get a good network, and if the manufacturer's network is poor, you would be less likely to buy their car. Right now for most manufacturers you have to buy an EV and hope that a 3rd party will enter a service with crappy economics and provide the coverage and capacity you need. The 3rd parties are all losing money, because they're selling a service that most EV owners want to avoid as much as possible and can avoid most of the time.

[@tyrantwitness2482]

Henri Zwols If you buy a #Tesla you can charge anywhere ! You simply use the adapter cables! It's only other makes that cannot use Tesla and it's their own fault !

[@zogworth]

It's like a infrastructure project should be run on a nationalised basis or something

[@remco6816]

@@zogworth yea but now you pay the high price on ionity so to keep it cheap you will only go for Tesla charging stations even while an ionity would be at your next stop.

[@Dave-in-France]

Even with a Tesla you can charge it at non- Tesla rapid chargers (although why would you? They are so good) as for the rest of the EV's market they use two or three different which means they can be charged at pretty much any charger network. Plus in reality the vast majority of peeps will be charging at home and that will take care of 95 % of the distance travelled in their EV.

[@ridingwolf42]

Fair point, apart from the fact the (at least in Belgium) Ionity have got their permits on public places given it is accessable for everyone, while Tesla superchargers here are on private property. I guess I'll just wait for Fastned to expand into Belgium.

[@antwnpowell]

And the EU bunged them €39.1 million

[@patdbean]

It is accessible to anyone , at 69p per kWh

[@Soordhin]

Fastned charges 59 cents... Yup, still cheaper, but not cheap either. And yes, they do charge that even on their triple chargers, so at only 50 kW.

[@patdbean]

Podpoibt claim that per KWH well over 90% of charging us done either at home or at work. So they do need to make back the cost of the hardware, and unlike Tesla they do not have car sales to subsidise charging station build.

[@ridingwolf42]

​@@patdbean that number will change when more people get EVs who have no access to home/work charging. I can't charge at home/work and more than once had no destination chargers within walking distance of places I need to be. Those rapid chargers become far more important if you can't be sure you will always have a full battery when you leave home.

[@stevenhiggins5518]

I really appreciate your humor and am heartened to hear you survived the man flu. You could add one more generic argument to keeping cost down for a DC fast charger. Yes, they are more expensive to build and install, but they can serve many more cars in a day to recoup that cost compared to a level 2 (240v) charger.

[@graemecarswell2528]

Thank you for the clarity. Clear that business models are evolving and we need people like you to analyse with logical frameworks. Well done.

[@bbbf09]

Did he analyse it? Hefailed to point out Ionity members will charge a hefty monthly fee (e.g. Audi ~ €18 p.m) if you want the preferential lower tariff.

[@bucklelanefarm]

Good input to the discussion. Thank you.

[@bbbf09]

Is it? comp[letely failed to point out Ionity members will charge a hefty monthly fee (e.g. Audi ~ €18 p.m) if you want the preferential lower tariff.

[@chillmeister]

The real question is: “would you know this without EVM explaining it to you?”...head to the Ionity site. Look at their press release and that is what the press and average Joe sees. Now try to find which “MSPs” are included and what their rates are.

[@malccartledge9771]

It’s great that it’s actually being discussed, good on evm for that, but the confusion is surely from just believing the media (false news?). I’ve never been to the ionity web site before, but it really isn’t hidden. In ONE click from the home page: “IONITY announces new pricing structure IONITY is announcing a kilowatt hour based pricing structure with effect from January 31st. Connected Mobility Service Providers (MSP) such as Audi e-tron Charging Service, Mercedes me Charge, BMW ChargeNow, Porsche Charging Service and Volkswagen WeCharge offer financially attractive and bespoke packages for motorway drivers who regularly use IONITY’s European High Power Charging network.” And one more click to ionity.eu/_Resources/Persistent/a7c7cece094e15da7bfc2864a74e62b51c8d829a/_20200116_IONITY_PRICING_EN_.pdf. The issue is whether this is a fair and reasonable scheme, and the customers seem to be pretty unanimous in their opinions. IF ionity and it’s ICE giant partners wanted a successful business model then they would charge a ‘competitively typical rip-off rate’ of 30-40p/KW, and give their club members a ‘free’ allowance or block of miles/KW. I do therefore wonder if they are really just playing a compliance game whilst pushing ahead with choking the planet to death.

[@chillmeister]

@@malccartledge9771 I was heading to the Ionity site and then Pricing. You're right that the press release is clearer than I remember. It's an odd one having different pricing for different MSPs. Perhaps it's to cover investment in infrastructure. The Tesla supercharger network must have cost a lot upfront, but was essential to adoption. It's probably traditional car manufacturers doing what the always do - getting away with whats they can.

[@bbbf09]

EVM has not explained anything. He has failed to point out the high monthly fee you must pay to be 'a member'

[@MarcusGarveysGhost]

That's because the average Joe is a Daily fail reader who has been conditioned not to apply any form of critical thinking, general going with the sensational headlines. The rates are fairly easy to understand, not tucked away in the terms and conditions or small prints.

[@chillmeister]

funksmaname Not really. It would have been much more consumer friendly to get the supported MSPs to decide their pricing up front, then host or link from the Ionity site to the relevant information. I had a good search and still can’t work out what VW’s pricing is. Google isn’t finding me any relevant info.

[@BRxRanger]

What an amazing explanation. I hope these are the reasons. Well done sir for opening my eyes.

[@macfast71]

You made alot of sense. Certainly cleared that up for me. Thanks Bye the way, congratulations on your miracle recovery 😉😂😂😂

[@QALibrary]

If you have forgotten, Tesla has said there supercharger charging network open to all - but they have to pay etc, so far from my understanding, only two companies have agreed to use the service which are Bollinger Motors and Rivian Motors (but since GM/Ford (I can not remember if it both or one of them) investment I am not sure if that agreement going ahead now

[@DuesenbergJ]

QALibrary Ford and Amazon have invested in Rivian

[@dave0n2wheels69]

One more reason to choose Tesla...

[@paulgoffin8054]

Yes, if you have a Tesla, you can still charge at Ionity in an emergency!

[@davidmccarthy6061]

@@paulgoffin8054 But not the other way around? It all needs to evolve into one standard at some point. In the beginning Tesla had to develop the charging network along with the car, as a major sales point. Likewise, your ICE car might only be able to fill up at Shell because the Mobile pump won't fit so you can only travel where there are Shell stations.

[@makemebad1978]

@@davidmccarthy6061 I am sure at the beginning Tesla offered the blueprints to their network chargers to all manufacturers for free in an attempt to make it easier for the future of charging with a single cable and charger system, but as always, they all refused. They would rather have many different types that all can't be used by another.

[@Soordhin]

@@makemebad1978 Sorry, that is not completely right. Tesla didn't offer any blueprints, they offered other OEMs to join in as part of the network, which Tesla exclusively would run, however, they would have to open all their intellectual property around EVs to Tesla at not charge to join and pay their part based on total vehicle delivery. Of course opening up all IP is quite unheard off, therefore they refused. That said The rest of the automotive world did create a single standard that Tesla subsequently introduced as well with the Model 3.

[@jur4x]

@@Soordhin but to be fare, only Model3 in Europe uses CCS. In North America they use Tesla's proprietary charging plug. And in China they use Chinese mandatory GB/T plug.

[@jobell7356]

Ok so I'm one of that 2% female audience you have and I have found your videos so helpful and really interesting. Thanks for your down to earth, clear comments. You speak much sense!!! Thanks so much for all you videos.

[@timb4655]

Very good presentation in my opinion. Nicely balanced. Will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Exciting times. Looking forward to going electric when I can

[@themanofmead5273]

Ionity, owned by all the major ICE manufacturers whom stand to gain the most by delaying EV adoption. I would say a carefully planned piece of PR to succeed in their goals. In addition when you know you can buy your electricity at home for 5p to 15p in general then it’s much easier to see when you are getting ripped off very badly. I suspect Ionity will be buying it’s electricity a lot cheaper than i pay for it as a domestic customer. I believe the subscription will be around £17 to £20 / month so if you only need the chargers on rare occasions for long trips then it’s very unlikely it will be worth subscribing so you’re back to the 69p. I say boycott Ionity chargers. Under no circumstances will I be using them.

[@stewarthamilton7059]

Great video, agree with what you say for the most part......however won't there be a standing monthly charge levied by the the owning car companies of c. £12/montb to tske CD advantage of the cheaper rate? This will make it ecpensive to use unless you use the network regulary? I think a rate of this level is a barrier to a lot of people enrolling as it appears to be an ANNUAL enrolment?

[@Pining_for_the_fjords]

The only reason I'd use Ionity would be in an emergency to get just enough charge to reach the nearest Ecotricity charger.

[@davidholden2658]

I agree and given how few there are in the UK it's not hard to avoid them. At work we have charging points we have to pay for but we pay the commercial rate our employee pays for electricity which is around 11p a kilowatt, I suspect Ionity get it even cheaper than that.

[@inkpen1999]

@@Pining_for_the_fjords Ionity are CCS only. Not much point heading for EH with a CCS car.

[@Soordhin]

@@stewarthamilton7059 That depends, currently only the Audi subscription fee is known, but there are others out there and more will come when and as manufacturer release their cars. WeCharge, the charging service of VW will offer different options, including flat fees (charge as much as you want at a single price), no monthly fee at all and a subscription. And of course usually a new car will include a couple thousand kWh on WeCharge including Ionity. No doubt others will do the same.

[@two-countiesdashcam]

Perfect sense. Time is money as the saying goes. Have you sold any Merch yet ??.

[@lauriemiles1842]

EVM, I don't know if you'll see this with so many comments all ready, but one week ago I took our brand new BMW i3-120 for its first long journey - St Helens in Merseyside to Shaftesbury in Dorset. About 215 miles, with real range of the car at about 150 miles. We ended up arriving at our destination hotel at midnight, 12 hours after setting off... On the back of an AA flatbed truck! The prime reason was Ecotricity chargers not working or not being available (the only CCS charger was plugged into another i3) at motorway services. I naively thought that motorway service chargers would be on a reliable network. We ended our drive by a ChargeYourCar charger that had not been working for one month! On the way back we went to 2 Morrisons supermarkets and used Geniepoint chargers which worked fast and without any problems (apart from one bay at one of them being ICEed). The information available to new EV drivers, as to which charging network(s) to use on a long journey, is simply not out there. Is there not information on which networks are most reliable, because of fear of action by a Network if criticised? The most reliable networks in the UK would be a great subject for a video...

[@stewartlamb5194]

Thank you, this clarifies things a bit more.

[@GWAIHIRKV]

Exactly. When I get delivery of my Taycan I’m expecting a three year membership of Ionity from Porsche. Although, not confirmed yet. . . . .

[@Hitstirrer]

I seem to remember reading that the concession of 29p for participating cars is only for the first year - with a monthly fee of £17 payable after that to continue access to the cheap rate. If that's the case will such a monthly fee be available to any other car in order to use Ionity chargers at a reasonable cost? If not, why not?

[@onlineo2263]

What we don't need is more monthly fees tying EV users into a particular network, unless that network is everywhere, by which I mean every csr park you park your car in, every service station you visit, every Airbnb you stay at, every street lamp you park near. Soon it will be like streaming services where if you own an EV you will need to subscribe to Disney, Netflix, amazon and more. Most people are going to charge up at home and then use a rapid charger 1 or 2 times per month. A 12 month contract to ionity just to avoid the 69p is crazy for most people.

[@Hitstirrer]

@@onlineo2263 - But the breakeven point for a £17pm fee plus 29p per kWh - against 69p per kWh for all drawn is only about 40 kWh's a month. Or 150 miles a month.

[@codevoid4238]

@@onlineo2263 it is stupid. In the UK at least something like 40% of homes have a driveway. Even with the subscription its going to scare people away from EVs if they need all these subscriptions.

[@Chappers.Gaming]

@@codevoid4238 I don't have a drive at my parents house.. I want an EV and this would of been my options to charge since there isn't on street charging in my estate... I don't wanna pay 69p for charging might stay with my ice car..

[@malccartledge9771]

Hitstirrer I commute about 70mi/day and charge at home, which I can do from as little as 5p/KWh, so it really is only on long trips I need or want to use public chargers (yes I have a drive). And when I am on a longer trip I don’t “fill ‘er up” like most newby EV drivers mistakenly do. Most stops are just 10-15 mins to get enough charge to get home with enough charge that the car will be as good as full the next morning (or not if I’m not planning to do much driving). So I’m only picking up maybe 15KWh a time out in the wild. On IONITY that’s still a £6 premium at 69p vs 29p. Do I care about a £6 surcharge - hell yes! I’m probably going to push on and look for a decent priced charger, hoping it will actually work and isn’t ICEd. Oh, except I’m not, because I bought a Tesla and one of the main reasons for doing so is pain free, hassle free, ICE free chargers. Remember, Tesla invested in that huge network when nobody even believed they could make a decent car, when VW and co were ripping us all off with their dieselgate lies. That’s why in the US they are required to install the charging network, and that’s when I paid for ionity here. But can that leopard change its spots, or does this mean they still ripping us off ?

[@cnocspeireag]

Many thanks for your explanation, genuinely thought provoking as usual. Imagine pulling into a filling station to be met with a notice that, unless you are in the right group, you will pay three pounds for a litre of diesel. The more I read, the more I feel that, when it's time to relace my diesel, my next car will be a diesel too.

[@musicofnote1]

Good luck filling that diesel over night while you sleep while it's in your garage. Public DC charging is, for most people only a neccessity when you're on a road trip. I have only a so-called Type 1 charger (trickle charger). Serves me fine and costs me 1/4 what my petrol car or my diesel RV cost. Plug in at night, with the timer set (in car) for low price time = 9pm - 6 am. Wake up and I've got more than enough juice. I only do this when charge hits 50% OR I have a trip coming up. So since I'm at 50% now, I'll plug in starting tonight with an extended charging time (if I need it) Saturday betwee 12 noon and 9 am Sunday, also all low price. We'll leave on Sunday for a family get together 90 minutes away. There and back will "cost" me 2/3 of a charge, so I'll plug in when I get home and the next morning I'll be up around 60% again. Enough for the week. But, to each his own. Our utility generates power by water and solar, so we're using only "green" energy. And that in a small SUV, the Kia E-Niro.

[@tomhickey1207]

Thank you for information, very informative.

[@jeremylister89]

It matters as it shows the direction of travel. if you don't fight against it these high prices will spread and be normalised. Gov should put a stop to this It does not encourage EV takeup. 5p/kwh home charge. 69p/kWh (max) Ionity 40p/kWh is approx parity with diesel cost You have been warned. As a footnote. Phone charging: I pay the same if I use a 1A USB charger OR a (much faster) adaptive fast USB charger.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Broadband, same product, different pricing for speed. Did you listen?

[@jeremylister89]

@@ElectricVehicleMan oh yeah, but not a good comparison in my view as std broadband is already fast enough. Dial-up vs broadband you'd have a point. And broadband became cheaper over time .

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Tesla prices. Cost to them (supply of power). Install / maintenance. Hence 27p(?) Huge investment. No appreciable profit.

[@andymccabe6712]

@@rogerstarkey5390 HOW much do you lurve, lurve, luuurrvvveee Tesla Rog??!! I'll bet your in you bedroom right now carefully dusting your shrine to St Elon and lighting the candle.....!! Not being nasty , honestly - I think it's sweet.....! I'll bet all that love helps the Saintly One leap out of bed each morning and go to work with a spring in his step. Ahhh......!!

[@nabarnes]

I challenge you to find any charging network that's paying the consumer rate for electricity - they'll be paying much, much more. Have a look at how wholesale electricity is charged and you'll be gobsmacked.

[@edwyncorteen1527]

You are correct, however the headline price WILL be used against the EV industry by the FUD crowd, as a Leaf owner I am relieved I cannot use them even if I wanted to!

[@ridingwolf42]

Depending on the site you can use them with a leaf, the site near me has a 50kW charger with a CheDeMo plug. Which I think is a requirement as it's on public property (motorway service station)

[@jur4x]

It already IS used against EVs. Some articles even write how it would be more expensive to charge 62kWh Nissan Leaf than fill up diesel Golf. Yeah, article literally said Nissan. Journalists these days don't do any research, do they?

[@bbbf09]

He is not correct. EVM failed to point out Ionity will charge a hefty monthly fee if you want the preferential lower traiff. You don't get it just for driving a 'member' car. It only makes sense to pay such a monthly fee if you do a lot of motorway driving each month

[@edwyncorteen1527]

@@bbbf09 I am fairly certain that the member manufacturers will supply this for free for a time, they will have to to compete with Tesla, The Mercedes EQC will come with plug and play charging on Ionity like Tesla superchargers. The whole rapid charging infrastructure is currently a mess, I am certain nobody knows how to make it pay, most EV drivers charge 90% at home so only use these rarely.

[@jeales895]

I'm so glad you make these videos. Rapids and ultra rapids are big money to install and run. Bjorn Nyland did a good video too comparing likely charging scenarios People always go mad about these price announcements and yet very few people use rapid chargers frequently

[@johnchartrand5910]

Excellent! well said, thank you, agree so much

[@Top12Boardsport]

BS no way customers will accept this. So they will lose even more. Good for the few that will use there service because they will almost always be alone.

[@andymccabe6712]

Oh dear.....oh, and the spelling is also rubbish..........!

[@Top12Boardsport]

@@andymccabe6712 OK I am spoiled, as I have a Tesla with free supercharging. So I looked at it from my prospective at first, but I did change my mind here. If I was in desperate need of a charge I would pay even more. ;-), that has never happened yet as the Tesla computer keeps track of my driving, but you never know. So from Ionity stand point they made the right decision.

[@egold33311]

What people need are a lot more destination chargers so people don't need to keep stopping on their way to places

[@antwnpowell]

Exactly - Travelodge & Premier would be a good start.

[@russellsmith4878]

I never knew that info, but I have only just ordered my first EV and as it is a Ioniq 5, I was well pleased when you mentioned Hyundai have joined the group. Thanks for the info……. Now subscribed 👍

[@marksweetman8765]

Thankyou for explaining that. Makes absolute sense now.

[@rogerfinch7651]

Thought there is a subs price per month to?

[@amiddled]

roger finch only if you have a car specific one. E.g. Audi e-tron.charging-service.audi/web/audi-ie/tariffs

[@bbbf09]

@@amiddled Not true I think. They talk about competitive subcription plans for all ...the other OEMs have simply not yet announced what subscription rates are..BMW and VW to follow. . (Although Merceds announced a €79 per year fee)

[@bbbf09]

My point exactly. When you crunch the numbers - based on subscriptions plans annnounced so far - unless you are guarnteed to do over 200m motorway miles a month you will be paying effectively more than the €0.79 /kwh tariif on average. EVM failed to point thsi out

[@amiddled]

@@bbbf09 the ONLY subscription plans at the moment are the ones tied to brand ownership in the group e.g. Audi. Outside of that the only deal is the per kw/h deal. Period.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

A point "Very much like the Tesla network is for Tesla owners...." It was available before CCS1 in the USA and CCS2 in Europe, and was offered to the other manufacturers, but for reasons best known to themselves, they declined (I could guess). There was a proviso that they contribute to expansion and maintenance (why wouldn't there be?) As far as I'm aware, the offer is still on the table (same terms?) One possible reason they didn't accept is that they'd have to join the Tesla billing protocol (plug and charge) being charged through an account assigned to the car? Maybe they were afraid that Tesla would access their customer database? Or monitor charging behaviour? Who knows? Either way, Tesla isn't locking them out. Ref the statement by EM regarding open patents and tech. He said that some manufacturers had contacted Tesla but wanted Tesla to modify systems to suit their vehicles.... Was that superchargers? Did they want Tesla to install card readers? Whatever, Tesla politely declined. As of 2016 Tesla is a member of the Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN) was founded by car makers and suppliers (Audi, BMW, Daimler, Mennekes, Opel, Phoenix Contact, Porsche, TÜV SÜD and Volkswagen) to promote the adoption of CCS. Ironically, I believe the next agreed standard from that group, CCS3, will require the ability to "plug and charge", plus Vehicle to Grid (home?) Maybe those manufacturers have the correct software protocols to access Superchargers already, but still haven't asked? Ego? Insecurity?

[@mondotv4216]

The reason is simple. They all wanted Tesla and EVs to fail because it upset their current business model. Most have been dragged kicking and screaming to the EV table by either regulation or Tesla’s success at stealing a portion of their market. Now we see legacy auto makers like Ford investing in Rivian because they’re playing catchup. Some might eventually get into bed with Tesla but probably only when they’re selling millions of cars a year.

[@andrewdyson4255]

Thanks for explaining that, makes sense to me now

[@bbbf09]

Does it? EVM failed to point out Ionity members will charge a hefty monthly fee (e.g. Audi ~ €18 p.m) if you want the preferential lower tariff. You don't get it just for driving a 'member' car. It only makes sense to pay such a monthly fee if you do a lot of motorway driving each month

[@steveellis1932]

Fantastic explanation, thank you..

[@davidpearn5925]

It’s my understanding that Tesla offered Superchargers to others but were rejected way back in the beginning.

[@muffinb5446]

Well they offered it, but do you know the price? Since Tesla was the only one with a charging network they sure used their leverage

[@davidpearn5925]

Marvin B when you have a company structure that is built around the ICE I guess it’s easy to knock back any offer that doesn’t fit the model. Today they don’t actually want to do what they are being forced into and that’s their biggest problem.

[@muffinb5446]

@@davidpearn5925 you got it right. they are being forced into it. they dont care how they make money, if there would be any value in selling eletric cars we would have them by now already. the only reason they are sold if the government forcing them onto us. incentives and co2 emission regulations are the only reason anyone is selling them. the free market ist the best way to find better options, but right now the market is highly regulated.

[@TheStumpyFingers]

How many of the people who complain about the high price use motorway services, the price is always a lot higher.

[@0-Will-0]

@captain pugwash You don't HAVE to use Ionity. There's plenty of cheaper options but Ionity will be nice to have as a plan B or C

[@anthonyschofield7807]

A well thought out and informative explanation Will you be reviewing the Honda E anytime?

[@silveriorebelo2920]

have you bought this 'logic'? - I see you glady want to pay pay pay... for no good reason - good luck...

[@micheltebraake7915]

Thank you for explaining. There is still a long way to go. At Shell or BP or another gas company, I don't need to be a member to refuel gas or diesel for a cheaper price, since the price (region dependent) is the same for everyone. And that is where the charging points must go, an equal system for everyone regardless of where you go.

[@ukcarver]

A great lesson in Waffle, how to turn a 2 minute video into a 15 minute video.

[@jamiethomson1284]

I am not sure it is as black and white as you make out. Like your analogy on broadband, the person paying extra for twice as fast internet is not getting the same thing, it is getting the potential to get twice as much data a month so it could be argued they are paying for volume of data not the speed. I get your point that fast chargers cost more and should carry a premium over home charging but they also work for the benefit of the charging company in that they can sell more KW per hour. Your later comparison to mobiles is actually where I think things will progress. I remember when it was cheaper to call someone on your network than it was to call someone on another network, so you and your mates all joined the same network. Eventually this was regulated out of the market and I can see the same thing happening with fast charging. I thing a lot of the companies backing Ionity are introducing a subscription service to get the lower rates so it is not always the case of just buying a Ionity group car. The market is all new and just trying out different ways to generate their income and they should be allowed to do so. At the end of the day no one is forcing anyone to pay the higher price. Great video by the way!

[@davidmccarthy6061]

Very good points! The few times a year I'll actually go long distance, I'll just pay more along my route. It will just factor into my vacation cost.

[@barryhaeger4284]

A brilliant no nonsense explanation! Well done

[@justeatingbigmacs]

As battery’s get bigger the need for rapids charge will reduce

[@makemebad1978]

So you'd rather plug in at home for 3 days full charge instead of going to a rapid and getting 80% in half hour?

[@robduncan599]

@@makemebad1978 I think there is a happy medium. Some will be happy to charge overnight and get 20-30Kw charge day to day and top up on longer trips when needed . Others that do high mileage will likely be part of the club at reduced rates. I guess you would have to decide which camp you fall into ? Just like the car you drive , do you want a premium car in the £50,000 range , or are you happy with a second hand old banger that costs £1000 ? It's the choice we all make all the time . As for home charging , you can get 7Kw /h so a 12 hour charge would give 84kw, if such a car existed. No doubt as years go on 100kw batteries in cars will be common place with a range of 400 or 500+miles all from home . Making this very much a storm in a thimble.

[@stevefinch6256]

How long before the government taxes Electricity like petrol ? Already started by the looks of it .

[@codevoid4238]

but this is a private company doing this.

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Do you mean fast chargers, or all electricity? Think it through.

[@jur4x]

@@rogerstarkey5390 well, considering different tax rates apply (in UK) to same food/drink whether you take out or eat in, wouldn't be surprised

[@johnkeepin7527]

Who knows? Given that we all have reduced VAT “subsidies” (under WTO definition) because the tax rate is reduced to 5% instead of the “standard” rate, I wouldn’t be surprised if its hiked up eventually. However, the other issue is that if one compares petrol pricing with electric, based on typical engine thermal efficiency of around 30% and typical petrol prices, anything over 40p/ kWh looks steep, even though petrol is priced at excise duty, plus trade price, plus VAT on top.

[@JBoy340a]

So the UK does not tax electricity? Here in the states they do. So that is a cost that the charging companies need to cover by passing on in the form of higher rates.

[@harleyij816]

I take your point, but you are only sure about Mercedes offering €29c. I’ve not seen confirmation that all Ionity members will charge this price. If they do the. I tend to agree with your point. However, remember that Ionity only really exists because VW were caught out (probably also the other diesel manufacturers), and therefore this should be treated as a “fine”, and the price should reflect that.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

There’s no way Mercedes get this benefit and no one else.

[@jonathanf.9395]

What does Tesla charge for the Model 3's at the SC in Europe?

[@somewhat7]

so when i buy a used car i have to pay a subscription also, or is it for life of car? and then how much charging is needed to offset 15-20$ a month ? the greed of the pricepoint is just wrong

[@robduncan599]

Did you even watch the video? It is optional if you want to be part of the system it's there, if you don't then don't, but it's there if you need it , only they will charge you a premium. Just like the golf club you can de a member , or pay a high price for a one off round once or twice a year . What could be fairer? They could make it a closed club giving you no access!

[@JBoy340a]

Depends on the car manufacturer. But, my guess is it is only for original owner or other limited period. For example, now days Tesla free Supercharging for cars sold after 2016/2017 is for time the original owner has the car. It does not transfer to subsequent owners.

[@somewhat7]

My point is if fuel companies charged a membership and gave a rebate, my country (Canada) would go bonkers. Just wait for countries to tax electricity the same way they tax our fuel here, and you'll begin to understand. You can't tax sunlight, but you can tax solar panels. You can charge a membership, and rape non-members, it doesn't mean it's right.

[@bbbf09]

@@robduncan599 I watched the video. EVM just states that if you are member you get prefererd tariff. As if if owning a particular make of car gets you a cheaper rate. It doesn't. He failed to point out Ionity 'members' will still charge a hefty ADDITIONAL monthly fee (e.g. Audi ~ €18 p.m) if you want the preferential lower tariff. It only makes financial sense to pay such a monthly fee if you are guaranteed to do a lot of motorway driving each month (more than several hundred miles). Otherwise you are better off paying the €0.79/kwh rate and be done with. Which to me is an outrageous rate.

[@robduncan599]

@@somewhat7 The companies are free enterprise companies, not the government, and under a capitalist economy , that is how they make money . They will charge you what the market will stand . So if they get it wrong people like you will go somewhere else. But if they get it right they will prosper. Now if you want more and more socialist support and intervention like in Canada if you vote in a more left leaning government they might put curbs on those companies and just like the free market the companies might think they are being over regulated ,so they will just have do deal with it or pack up shop and move on .So we get the companies we vote for with our $/£/€and the government we vote for . But you'll never please all the people all the time . I think your argument is more about how you government controls business. ( I am not against more socialist intervention) but as I see it we either vote with our money and companies will sink or swim . And vote in a government that will protect the society from over powerful companies.

[@railwaymanjohn4721]

Totally agree with your points, but also I charge at home, I have never used a charging point, but if I was going on a long trip, hadn't planed properly and got low on power, I would be only to happy to pay Ionity's 69p price.

[@SirHackaL0t.]

If there was a Shell charger at 30p or an Ionity at 60p per kw which would you choose?

[@davidsworld5837]

do think there is some thing missing the banks charges to companies to use credit and debit cards or like the paypal fee for a person to get paid for a product. think some were paying for each fill one at a time instead of have an account were all you fills are listed and you eiter have credit on account or pay bill at end of month so more like 1 payment instead of may be your charging 3 or 4 times during a day and paying for each one as you go it may take up more time to do so cost more

[@AllElectricLiving]

I never looked at it like that but I now agree with you

[@delboy7039]

Thank-you for clearing that confusion up.... 'Someone' in their 'rant'....failed to mention this small detail. Yes, its not perfect, but its also a bit like Costco... Also, if we could all use 'every' recharge facility as a pay as you go, Credit Card payment, customer, this will make electric vehicles more appealing, for the next wave of customers.

[@marklola12]

he forgot to mention the monthly charge you pay as a member lol which really makes the cost the same and not 29p

[@1_2_die2]

11:40 but the Tesla Supercharger Network WAS open to other manufacturers, just from the beginning. The truth is no other OEM was willingly to accept the terms of such a contract - for example to open up their car internal data management structure to Tesla. They would have benefited from the network and had to take their share of costs from building and maintaining it. At first they didn't believe in Tesla, just laughed about it. Now it's to late join, they would loose face and prestige to join the underdog. The same with the technology (cells, battery packs, motors etc), it is open for use, the patents are free - you just have to accept the terms (and open up your own patent portfolio). That's another point the old dinosaurs will never agree with.

[@tyrantwitness2482]

1_2_Die First they ignore you, then laugh at you, then they fight you and then legacy car manufacturers become museums showing how cars were made before #Tesla ! Best part is the boardroom where each position at the table has its own bucket of sand !

[@anthonyc8499]

I think there is more to the story on this. Tesla might have been or currently is open to sharing the Supercharger Network with another OEM but I'm not sure it isn't a trap. If any other manufacturer joined Tesla, it means that Tesla now controls the usability of the other company's cars. Also, Tesla's good faith open patents kick in which means that Tesla is free to copy technology on their competitors cars. That's just not a good deal.

[@poordai1]

excellent, straight forward explanation .

[@karldavies2440]

I saw a rant about this the other day but didn’t look into it, makes sense now. Let’s face it there needs to be something better on the motorway network than ecotricity. Good Video!

[@thewatchman1078]

Mad to go EV, hybrid at best. The insane uncertainty on charging times, tech, and locations means this tech is years away from making sense for most people.

[@TheGalantir]

Locations are clear, charging times are very simple to calculate or look up, the tech is there otherwise we wouldn't have fast chargers everywhere. The problem is mostly in people's heads, they're unwilling to look into it realistically.

[@ScrapKing73]

Uncertainty on charging times? E-cars go hundreds of kilometres on a charge, and the average person only drives dozens of kilometres per trip. Most people can charge from the mains overnight and never need to stop at a charging station. An e-car is vastly cheaper on maintenance too. No transmission work, no radiator problems, not even so much as an oil change. It's The only thing that makes sense for most people, especially as good quality used e-cars get cheaper and easier to find.

[@vincentcausey8498]

Yes, hybrids make more sense to me.

[@ScrapKing73]

@@vincentcausey8498 I'm curious as to why a hybrid makes more sense to you. I wouldn't drive a hybrid if someone gave me one for free. I live in Canada where gas is rather expensive but electricity is cheaper than average. In Canada, 66% of our electricity is from renewable sources, and that increases to 97% in British Columbia where I live. So an e-car with sufficient range for my needs is much cheaper on fuel, much cheaper on maintenance, vastly better for the environment, and therefore much more desirable. The cost of the vehicle is a minor consideration when good quality inexpensive second hand e-cars are easy to come by, and the operating costs of EVs is far, far lower.

[@MrGonzonator]

Is there a role for government here to get the utility companies to provide chargers as a public service obligation?

[@Group51]

Puzzled that this doesn’t happen already. It’s their product. But we’re waiting for Shell to make them? Odd.

[@jameswhite2792]

Ionity was part funded by EU cash, so we have put money towards them! That makes this a bit outrageous.

[@awesomeactiontv6964]

Are Peugeot going to joined... I’ve just ordered my 2008gt ev which I’ll get late October early November... also please do a more in-depth review of octopus agile and how your OHme works with it... this is what I’m planning to use

[@michaelowen6296]

Very good argument. Why didn’t I think of that. Mike

[@jledgister]

yea have to disagree with you on this one. its not the fact that they cost more its how much more

[@nabarnes]

But 69p is still loss-making. Because of the way wholesale electricity is charged, the break-even point is more likely to be much much closer to £1/kWh.

[@TheWinstn60]

Nope disagree to some extent the faster you charge the faster a new customer rocks up to charge. Ionity are cashing in until there is more competition and it’s gives headroom for its members. The government should provide infrastructure ie large out of town charging areas with major amounts of grid power free to all the charging companies for them to charge haha their customers what they like. Theirs loads of space next to motorways and major road networks.

[@nitelite78]

Do second hand owners of cars that fall under the ionity bracket get the cheaper ionity rates?

[@GoGreenAutos]

Totally agree with all your comments EVM. But how to Ionity group vehicle drivers get to be identified by the charger? Do you get an RFID card with the car?

[@no-oneman.4140]

I appreciate you're all about conserving electricity but next time you use the iron, turn it on.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Never!

[@johnathanpearson3203]

Jeremy Corbyn would build millions of chargers by taxing the rich 👍

[@ossiemac]

Good idea

[@pcat1378]

The rich being workers

[@johnathanpearson3203]

Lol. I was only joking. Jeremy Corbyn would buy everyone on minimum wage a Tesla 😁 as long as you are also a member of his party.

[@ossiemac]

Boris makes sure the poor workers money goes to all his hoorah mateys.

[@johnathanpearson3203]

@@ossiemac why is Corbyn a millionaire? Pot. Kettle.

[@Kiltoonie]

Thanks for the clear thinking and reasoned argument: I hadn't actually realised that Hyundai was part of the Ionity network. Communications haven't been that clear ! However, I have no idea what a "mobility service provider" is or how this related to me: do they mean car manufacturers?

[@ianpiper7168]

Great videos. Could you do one comparing the different charge networks? I'm buying an electric car and completely bemused by the different competing networks.

[@thomashebson6039]

Over twice as expensive per mile as running my wife's petrol car....No thanks

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

No it’s not. Did you not listen to the start? Rapid charging will account for about 5-10% of fuel costs. Averaged out its massively cheaper.

[@thomashebson6039]

Electric Vehicle Man Doesn’t alter the fact they are about twice as expensive as other operators & few electric cars are capable of making use of the faster charging available, mine included.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Thomas Hebson As in the video, they’re not twice as expensive depending on the car. Even if it was, paying a lot more for half a dozen trips a year is irrelevant.

[@thomashebson6039]

Electric Vehicle Man I agree using them occasionally is not a problem but what we need are more realistically priced chargers, if all the other companies started charging the 69p p.kWh then EV take up would be severely curtailed.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Only because people (like you stated in your OP) believe that ‘that’s how much fuel costs in an EV’, when in reality it’s ‘that’s how much fuel costs for 5-10% of journeys in an EV’. Misinformation is the biggest anti EV thing out there.

[@simonyapp]

This just what I have been saying, totally agree! Thanks. Ps: man-flue is bad! Glade you made it!

[@sharondixon7496]

As an EV owner (a 40kw Zoe, which is brilliant by the way) I find all this charging situation is totally stupid. When refuelling my ice vehicles I did not have to join a club operated by Shell, Esso or BP for example and then use some fancy App on a smart phone at the pump along with some exclusive card to access, I filled up, paid and continued on my way - Simple.

[@paulinchris]

Having watched the video again now that I am an EV owner you put a very logical argument.

[@richardcope8102]

Great analysis. I am with you on that one.

[@dougowt]

Thank you for clearing that up. It had not been explained in the Fully Charged video or others I've seen. It makes a lot more sense now, although I still think the price is higher than it needs to be. If it was 50p per kW I'd still only use them as a last resort and probably only get a wee boost to get me to a cheaper charge point. Do you think that all the manufacturers that are signed up, might just be happy to see a few 'more expensive than diesel' headlines, given that they still want to produce and are mainly geared up to produce ICE'd vehicles?

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

I would think not doing the network at all would be the obvious choice if that was the goal.

[@dougowt]

@@ElectricVehicleMan There is that but equally a number of manufacturers are only doing what they must to satisfy the emissions legislation. And some are developing a single EV in their range as insurance against being totally unprepared if the market shifts quickly. Personally, I think we will still see some of the legacy automakers fold as they are ill-prepared and are clearly pushing the ICE for all they are worth. Does anyone know how after diesel-gate, when it was obvious that the manufacturers were committing fraud (not just VW) and having to cheat to meet emissions, how are they still being allowed to produce diesel-powered vehicles?

[@stephenclay6852]

Hi. I agree with your thoughts on the subject. If all the car makers that have joined the group get the reduced charge cost. Plus as cars get greater range you would probably use a rapid charger less other than when you plan a long trip ie holiday etc 95% of our driving can be done from home to home charging with the Kia e Niro.

[@chrisb508]

You make some very good points. I live in a veritable charger desert in West Texas and would gladly play 69 cents/kWh if there were more chargers available. I wouldn't use them often, but it would be nice to know that they were there when I need one.

[@EVMYT]

I thought it was a travesty at first but actually, I'm inclined to agree with your logic. Who says my mind can't be changed. Where do I get membership for my BMW i3?

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Only Mercedes and Audi have a scheme right now. Can’t imagine the others will be that far behind.

[@Wayfarer-Sailing]

Can anyone explain what constitutes a 'direct customer' of Ionity? Their website states that direct customers will be/were able to pay £8/charge until 30 January, and £0.69/kWh from 31 Jan. No mention of lower rates for e.g. VW owners and nothing that I could find on the VW (UK) website.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Mercedes have announced it, others haven’t yet. Presumably

[@dadjv1926]

Great video. So much insight and common sense from someone so far South.... 😉

[@johnathankain8033]

The most important thing is that chargers are available. Cost is pretty secondary. The best allegory is probably diesel cost at a Motorway services. Total rip off, but it saves you a 20 min detour to the Asda in a nearby town and for some people thats worth it. Similarly if you want cheaper rate electricity you can probably go to a more "local" charger and still get rapid at a cheaper price. Disclaimer that i'm still diesel powered for now, but very likely to go electric next time. Either a Model 3 or an MG E-Motion depending on stats and costs.

[@gmore70]

In BC Canada I pay, converted from CAD to the pound 6p a KWH.

[@davidelliott5843]

How many Ionity charge points are there out in the wild? If I buy a contract deal I want to know there will be enough points for me to use my investment. Basically I won’t be buying Ionity because I may well not be able to use it.

[@armandsimonis7992]

EVM, you forgot to mention - or perhaps you are not aware - that you can get charging cards for free(!) with which you can charge for 35 Eurocents per kWh at Ionity, also from 1 Februari ! And it works with all CCS equiped EVs of all brands. Those cards can also be used for the same kWh-price at rapid/fast chargers like FastNed and Allegro.

[@antwnpowell]

link please

[@armandsimonis7992]

@@antwnpowell - example: www.maingau-energie.de/e-mobilit%C3%A4t/Autostrom-Tarif - and yes, it works

[@kindog86]

Thanks for clearing that up. Ur 100% correct

[@rogerstarkey5390]

Not exactly.

[@biggobmalc8118]

Good point well put.

[@3002534]

Well explained. Thank you.

[@stephenauty2402]

Anyone know how 69p/kw of compares to a Litre of Petrol (120p) ie will 2kw of charge do say 10 miles in an EV.? (based on a petrol car doing 45 mile/gal)

[@line10cls]

p.s. why do broad band providers, gas and electricity prices at different rate to supply broadband gas electricity to me.

[@mrlimey2419]

Great points well made.

[@davidkerr4103]

Does anyone know if there is a similar deal with Plugsurfing? Volvo/Polestar have joined this network but I have been looking at the costs. Up to £0.92/ kWh!!😳 Is there a discount for members?

[@31770]

Thoughts and prayers EVM. Glad you're still with is.

[@matthewgolab8321]

I had a look for Ionity chargers on BMW's Chargenow website and they're not on the map, so i assume they are not included!!

[@matthewgolab8321]

I do agree to your point though. You're paying for the fact that there will 8 chargers in a station, so your likely to get a spot and there unlikely to be ICE'd, be reliable etc.

[@sandy7108]

Yep total agree good point well made 👍

[@cookingfat1]

Please can you review a 2020 Hyundai Ionic ev? If you do, I'll use your Octopus link.

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

Give me one and I’ll do it.

[@cookingfat1]

@@ElectricVehicleMan You can borrow mine, but I don't take delivery until end of June :(

[@robertlewis7426]

Well presented and reasoned thank you

[@SololaneMvlog]

I don’t know if it is the same in every country but in Belgium for some brands of cars that work with ionity you pay less per kWh yes BUT with an extra monthly fee... like 10€ /month but you can pay 0,39€ /kWh instead of 0,79€/kWh. So in the end...oh and it’s a yearly subscription...

[@davidharrison8948]

Well explained. Thanks

[@BRI535D]

So are you telling me that I can charge my Kia eNiro at an Ionity charger as a Pay as you go customer(no subscription fees) at a reduced rate?

[@simonlloyd100]

I have a Kona 64km...as Hyundai have now joined, do I get the cheaper rates?

[@ElectricVehicleMan]

You’d expect something eventually.

[@seanreeves3503]

A well argued point