Irenaeus Refuting the Claims of Pretribbers // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS

MARANATHA Global Bible Study // The Rapture and the Endurance of the Saints Episode 18: Irenaeus Refuting the Claims of Pretribbers
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[@debbiewareing1178]

Thank you Joel for speaking up for truth! I pray the Lord gives all of them the clarity to see what the word says ! What the Holy Spirit is saying!

[@prov2.3-5]

I’m fearful for brothers and sisters who approach and teach God’s Holy Word to fit what they want to believe. We need to approach God’s Word as holy and with utter reverence.

[@ww3659]

Proverbs 18:17 "In a lawsuit the first to speak seems right until another stands up and cross examines."

[@Toncor12]

why are you fearful? No matter whether pre, mid or post is corect, true believers end up living with Christ for all eternity. Read again what horrors beset the world in the Great Trib and as yourself why Jesus, your spiritual husband wants you exposed to all that? People who become saved in the Trib goe through that, NOT the Bride, NOT the Church!

[@jeffknightdiscipleofMessiach]

​@Toncor12 Why don't you challenge Joel Richardson. Of course, you dare not because you don't have any Scriptural evidence at all. You're just quoting what you've been told. I see this time and time again when I encounter any person who holds to the Pre-tribulation rapture position. Why oh why, would you hold to the eschatological view of the Plymouth Brethren cult without even researching the roots this theological position. It's clear that this is one of the biggest scams that has been accepted by Church of the last 200 years. You need to spend time with the persecuted Church and then see if you still believe this theological position. Please stop badgering the believers who choose to read Scripture in context. Good bye!

[@victoriashogrin9238]

Hello, the saints are the church through out the Bible. It says that the saints which are believers in Jesus will be martyred and love not their lives. From Revelation 9 if my math is correct half the earth guaranteed will not repent and turn to Jesus according to the end of Revelation chapter 9. Where do these multitudes of saints come from that are to die for Jesus if the believers currently on the earth are raptured? Once the door to the marriage supper is shut there is no getting in! It is finished. Why does Jesus in Matthew 24 say to endure to the end. Then in Matthew 24:29-31 it says after the tribulation. No where in the Bible does it specifically say that believers currently on the earth will not be here during the tribulation. You have to infer and add to scriptures. Please there is such an urgency for everyone to seek for ourselves! We are to be a workman of the word and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. We must be prepared for whatever is to come!

[@bobettepage4440]

The frightening thing is that millions of people who believe are being lead to not prepare for what is coming. Preparing to withstand the finally test will be difficult but worth it. Becoming more like Christ and being more loving and responsible for yourself can’t be done in a day.

[@koalabear19]

I asked myself a tough question, that no pre-tribber would dare to ask themselves. The question is: why would the devil want believers to follow the rapture pre-trib? Knowing all about our enemy, it was easy to answer: because those whom are not expecting to be here when the real trouble begins are left completely unprepared and less likely to keep watch for the antichrist and his deceitful schemes. Jesus said 'make sure nobody leads you astray' (Matthew 24). Why would Jesus and the apostles ensure we all know about THE antichrist if we weren't going to be here to be concerned about it anyway? Does our Lord tell us about how he manages all his angels for work? No. Why? Because we don't need to know, it doesn't affect us. Likewise, is he telling us about about the great tribulation and the antichrist for interesting information? No. We need to know because we will be here. What's the purpose of being able to calculate the number of the beast if you never expect to around for it anyway. Remember: a ship in the harbour is safe. But that's not what ships are built for.

[@ww3659]

@@koalabear19 Well said--batton down the hatches and suck it up buttercup! The other thing I see is that Pretribbers are so invested in their thinking that they simply can't see truth when it is pointed out to them--like their minds have been seared with a hot iron. You can only reject truth for so long before God takes reason and wisdom from you. So then, prophecy is fulfilled--there will be a famine of the Word in the end.

[@eastofmars6413]

​@@koalabear19 we go up when the last trumpet sounds. Don't you know those versus aren't for christians? Just kidding. I agree with you and Joel. Another tough question to ask is. If I could know right now, with out a doubt, that my eschatology is wrong, how would that affect my relationship with Jesus?

[@driftwood5504]

why in fear ? I love it to get my head chopped off... it is one of my daily exercises... I love it - and I watch the USA already produces guillotines ...just in time... isn't that cute ? I love it - and I soon hope to get my head chopped off- because it is my "blasted hope" or was it the blessed hope to be chopped off - question is when and how long can I offer my head -

[@mysoulsayings7273]

Well said.

[@erinstover195]

As an early Christian I was taught pre trib but it sounded so silly, and here I was a brand new believer and I became post trib and so happy I did. Thank you Joel, love your teaching. God Bless you and Maranatha!

[@jawneethecurious]

It is so refreshing to see someone teaching some actual facts! Excellent refutation of pretrib, one of the best I've heard, Joel!

[@tommycash9580]

Thank you for being blunt in your teaching

[@paulmacmillan4459]

I watch Ken Johnson every week and his followers are so hard core pre tribulation and is scary. Scripture is so clear if people would just read it. It's easy to see this could be part of the great falling away.

[@goodfightministries]

Joel, your statement from 21:04 to 22:14 sums up the issue with the PTR doctrine adherents very well. A very nice summary statement. Couldn't agree more.

[@michaellow625]

Great work Joel, POST TRIB IS SOOO CLEAR. I to was a PTR believer, simply because that was all that was taught in the charismatic church, until I started my own enquiry and Holy Spirit study into the subject. Keep up the good work ,bringing the truth to the body of Christ. How can these anointed leaders be right on so many subjects and fail on this all important teaching. Maranantha.

[@Debbie1225]

Thank you for speaking truth.

[@lynnriggs4244]

Maranatha YAH bless all

[@Nektarios0316]

As someone who is a catechumen of orthodoxy, its refreshing to see other Christians using our early church fathers to refute this heresy of the rapture

[@aprildawn152]

Thank you for addressing all of the errors being taught from the pulpit. ❤

[@byyykusto]

You mean heresy? Non heretic will inherit the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5)

[@rivstg13]

@@byyykusto no matter ones’ view of eschatology …..none of them are ‘heretical ‘

[@byyykusto]

@@rivstg13 every false doctrine is a heresy. Apostle Paul was kicking out of the church every heretic for one false doctrine.

[@rivstg13]

@byyykusto debatable interpretations of end time events/playbook do not fall in the category of heresy in the slightest

[@jamesh7554]

@byyykusto According to the dictionary definition of heresy, heresy is anything that does not agree with Roman Catholic doctrine. So, that would mean anyone who doesn't line up with every doctrine that comes from the Vatican is a heretic. The RCC teaches many false doctrines, but by definition, it is not heresy. So unless you are Roman Catholic, we're all heretics.

[@94jibber]

Protecting the flock under your care is the most important

[@ctflooringconceptsllc9157]

Joel, as I read the word of God it is clear in all texts , undoubtedly clear that the church is here until Christ comes period. No need to defend yourself at all, just keep the faith and endure to the end. God put you guys all of you where you are

[@kirkharbison8340]

Excellent!!!

[@leahmikkonen5215]

Joel- I love your teachings!!! I’m so blessed by what you share every time! thank you for doing what you do! Appreciate you and your wisdom! 😊

[@joyinthemorning328]

The "secret" pre-trib rapture is so secret that it's not even in the bible! 😂

[@julianaallen8477]

I am truly shocked you don't have like 10 pre tribbers biting your head off and giving you terrible examples like Noah and Lot escaped, (which to me points to pre wrath rapture) oh and John was told to come up here.. and the infamous "I will keep you from the hour of trial " passage. That to me also points to pre wrath meaning we go through almost all but when the sun, moon and stars show their signs that's when the rapture happens. Just like Matthew 24 says. No worries I'm sure you will have many haters. For some reason pre-tribbers like to leave comments on this channel. 🙄

[@michellecheriekjv4115]

Absolutely...it's simply not there. But the Post trib pre-wrath truth is there. If they understand who the Elect are Mark 13:20....and that Tribulation is not the wrath. God Bless 🙏

[@logiciskey7]

Great answer😂

[@ricoyochanan]

@@julianaallen8477 Like it or not, Noah and Lot were spared, not to mention the Jews escaping Pharaoh's army at the Red Sea. 1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who deliveres us from the wrath to come. Sure sounds pre-trib to me.

[@nyeahgarner2420]

​@@ricoyochanan You make a fine argument for post tribulation.

[@ctflooringconceptsllc9157]

When I was a boy I was and still am excited about Christ coming ( pretrib) until four years ago. I reread the word and it was clear to me that on this subject I followed and believed what a man said. Now my eyes are on the truth! I am born again and will endure in the truth of my savior. We will go through this tribulation, not turn from Christ and endure to the end. Christ will strengthen us(the church) and we will concour the antichrist through the holy spirit, God,Christ. We will suffer but not at all like those who worship the antichrist.

[@leslielacroix4932]

Here here. Bravo 👏 👏 👏 Quite satisfactory and edifying. Thank God for reason and the freedom of rational thought. God bless you Joel. Haleluiah and MARANATHA ‼️🛐🛐🛐 LOOKING FOR HIS RETURN. LOVING THE LORD JESUS IN SINCERITY. ❤

[@bettycarmella1127]

Thank you brother 🙏🏽❤️

[@dlove9034]

Beautifully done! At some point, it just becomes undeniable

[@CaptShmap]

You nailed it brother!

[@janasrider]

Thank you ♥️

[@annjoyce579]

Hebrews 10:25 "Encourage each other as you see The Day drawing near..."

[@mfowler4651]

Thank you for this exhaustive session. I am so tired of seemingly fundamental pastors not studying for themselves and only teaching what they were told in Bible college or seminary or by some other group of pastors.

[@annjoyce579]

My respect for you. Scripture encourages believers they are...not...destined for wrath...". Recall Scripture details the punished ....didn't....want to do right, but rejected truth.

[@paulmacmillan4459]

I appreciate what you are doing here Joel, you are doing an outstanding job and you have opened my eyes to the Muslim question. Your work is simply common sense when it is shown. You have a full time job on your hands and it is so important. It seems like people like Tommy Ice and many more have a money incentive going on here.

[@ww3659]

It makes you wonder, right? If you truly are a seeker of truth, then why dig your heels in? It took Jesus himself appearing to Paul to turn him around. Pride took satan down, do we really think we are any better?

[@jesuswarrior3639]

Best teaching yet! This is extremely important subject. Part of great deception which makes it occultism.

[@LastDaysDetective]

Very good, Joel!

[@adrienne3910]

Thanks for expounding truth.

[@roscoerichardson3956]

Great stuff Joel. Keep doing what you’re doing!

[@salvatoreloria7799]

Bravo, bravissimo! You may be a blue collar guy, as you said, but you have a brilliant mind, and that's the reason why pre-tribulationists will not want to have a dialogue with you. They avoid thinking minds! They only want empty minds to fill with their lies. You deserve an Honorary degree.

[@michellebehr7669]

It takes a lot of presumption to take the Word of God and wrest it to fit pre-trib. Then again presumption means without the right or authority.

[@danielramsey197]

Good stuff!

[@annjoyce579]

2 Timothy 4:3 some will not "endure" sound doctrine, but will seek out words... We're told, in the last days, to "endure": our faith may weaken as corruption steals our justice, our freedom, our loved ones murdered in lawless last days.

[@st.christopher4854]

St. Irenaeus draws from the "Shepherd of Hermas" that there are 3 groups. 1. Christians who obey the commandments of the Son of God and are looking for his appearing. These are the stones in the tower that need no purging. They will escape the tribulation to come. 2. Christians who are double minded and not looking for his appearing. They go through the tribulation as gold tried in the fire. These are the stones that are removed from the tower as they are stained, cracked, and/or do not fit straight into the tower. They are to be reshaped and cleansed and fit back into the tower later ... if possible. 3. Those who deny the faith and deny Christ. It would be better that they were never born .. which echoes St. Peter. These are the stones unfit for the tower and are to be hauled away.

[@los842]

WOW!! Joel you broke it DOWN for me.. Thank you for that detailed explanation.. I believe EVERYONE(CHURCH) needs to PAY ATTENTION!!!!

[@flexjoly_]

Thank you so much for these studies!! I tried to search myself. So happy you did this research.

[@dlove9034]

Another banger underway

[@michaelbrown7319]

What makes us so good, that is us the church that we should be spared of the tribulation! The Rapture isn't in the Holy Scriptures. There isn't two risings left only one. Read John 6:40-44, and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18 carefully and with Prayer. I agree with you 💯

[@LookoutMountain4ever]

Joel, a pre-trib Dallas radio host that I’ve conversed with for about 15 years recently gave me a link to Lee Brainard’s video about Irenaeus. I’ve been post-trib for about 40 yrs now, and I knew Lee’s take on Irenaeus wasn’t true. Today I watched your video. Excellent!!! Thank you for championing the truth! Merry Christmas to you and your family!

[@luciparadise6781]

The Eschatology of Irenaeus by A. Skevington Wood. Good read. I'll have to read more about Irenaeus, a stand up Bishop. 😊✝️🙏❤️

[@teresatorres2230]

Excellent teaching as always, I appreciate true teachings because there is just soooo much deception in our world and because of this, many will be led astray, I truly believe that the great Apostasy will be the very remnant of those who follow the pre tribulation theory sadly and, I’m praying for them all.

[@seanc2788]

The Apostacy is happening now. Many are falling away. We only have a few years left, max.

[@teresatorres2230]

@@seanc2788 I agree

[@sirrogerbannister9282]

Keep telling the truth Joel

[@markellis7046]

So true brother.

[@hygenius07]

2 Thessalonians 2,3 is quite clear. The falling away and AC come first.

[@WayneCharron-wt8wx]

@Moxy Jesus Lady..dear one in Christ..if it's so quite clear then why all the disagreements? Appreciate and thank you Moxy for your response.

[@handles617]

​@@WayneCharron-wt8wx it's "confusing" because of doctrine created to establish "schools of thought". One only needs to read direct statements in scripture like they posted to see the truth. Most verses used to establish timing of the rapture are inferred, which means they read and then try to interpret the meaning. But a direct statement would establish the claim all on its own. People like to believe in pre trib because they start off with a misinterpretation of the meaning wrath, and the timing of God's wrath and they state essentially that "we can't be in it because of the above reasons in verse so and so" but this is a result of like I said a misinterpretation. The word wrath when discussing events of the tribulation is not used until the 6th seal, which has the same signs as matthew 24, described as after the tribulation, where in the 6th seal it is thus described as the wrath of the Lamb and the day of their wrath.

[@luciparadise6781]

@@handles617 I think it boils down to fear, vanity, and pride.

[@ww3659]

@@WayneCharron-wt8wx Cognitive dissonance is the clinical term my friend (holding two things up that are mutually exclusive and saying they are the same). You can't use logic and reason to argue with someone who hasn't used logic and reason to come to their conclusions.

[@donnanason597]

Exactly. Cosmic signs also have to happen, such as the moon turning to blood, the sun losing its light, and the stars falling from the sky. We will meet the AC before being ratured.

[@MoneyLinez]

The last generation will ALL go through the tribulation. The dead in Mashiak will rise at second coming and those believers on earth will be supernaturally caught up with Mashiak at last Trumpet. Then His reign on Earth takes place with those resurrected and those who were caught up in Rapture.

[@kakapkaper4750]

wrong, The Bible clearly stated the first resurrection is for the rigtheous at Jesus" second coming(rev.20:4-6) the second resurrection is for the wicked after the millinial reign (rev.20:11-15) and they will be judge according to their deeds.

[@MoneyLinez]

@@kakapkaper4750 I'm saying same thing as those scriptures are

[@ww3659]

@@kakapkaper4750 With all due respect I think what is happening here is that you're reading through people's comments too quickly. You're both saying the same thing.

[@annjoyce579]

1 Thessalonians 5:9 & 2 Timothy 3

[@arliegage1380]

I personally don't care if it's Pre, Mid or Post...I'm saved, washed in the Blood and made Holy.. ❤🎉

[@Danielle24]

I'd rather be expecting to go threw tribulation & be raptured; then be expecting the rapture & be surprised when tribulation comes..

[@landygreene8523]

Bingo

[@talon5902]

The was a man who kept asking for more not knowing what he had been given already or understanding it ,but he listened to others that had been given the same and they kept asking for more they where limited by there own knowledge and understanding if you have, why ask more but it was there choice because of free will god bless you all my brothers and sisters through Jesus Christ he is my everything and you are to him amen

[@jwine4145]

Watching in Dec 2024. Did you ever get a Yes response to debate?

[@sammygeiger3562]

WOW! pausing the video 13 mins in to say i LOVE the clip about the Israeli bomb shelter, I had no idea! Thats horrible, I will definitely be contributing to that cause. Great video clip, genuinely thank you for that!

[@handles617]

Dalton from fai actually lives in the Golan heights

[@scottmarino3197]

Amen. Clarity with Scripture.

[@sammygeiger3562]

I am really hoping someone will take Joel up on a debate! He has done his homework and has a strong case, I would be very intrested to see someone's reaponse in an actual conversation. Great video, thanks for all the time you spend making this for the body of christ

[@ww3659]

I think it speaks to a much deeper issue. For example you have people like Ps Tom Huges (whom I respect) who refuse to debate because they "don't want to be contentious" and are firmly convinced in their own minds. THAT dear friends is unbiblical and a copout IMHO, ESPECIALLY when you are a pastor/teacher responsible for leading others to truth.

[@seanc2788]

He picks on pre-tribbers who really don't know what they are talking about. It's easy pickings. All those clips he played are carefully selected.

[@callingallhandsondeck]

Thanks Joel for putting this together. I kind of smiled a bit when you said some are "cult like". I've thought the same thing but couldn't find the word. That sums it up really well. Most will not budge & are very adamant about their position. Yes, many are what I'd call the old-timers. I say that with kindness. I'm almost there too. I'm definitely not being demeaning. What I also find frustrating are many of the pre-trib proponents are excellent teachers sharing incredible knowledge but this evades them. Keep saying "why can't they see it"? It really is like they're blinded. When you shared that different opinions can be confrontational, I prefer to call it an open conversation. Iron sharpens iron. I like knowing how someone thinks & why. Therefore, I ask questions. I get misunderstood a lot. I probably come across as confrontational to some but that's not my intent. Just tonight was talking to family about communication. Many people, especially those under 25 are unable to converse in a simple conversation because most rarely talk by speaking. They talk by typing into a phone/computer. As a society, we're not progressing. We're getting worse. I'm sharing this with a concerned smile.

[@bjmehl2009]

Unless you’re a true believer of the early church, Catholic or Orthodox, you too are considered a cult. The thousands of Protestant churches that have developed since Luther’s Reformation is pure heresy by many.

[@OligosFew]

One must perform world class mental acrobatics to turn clear scripture into a pretrib rapture.

[@ww3659]

Joel--although you've covered it here and there, I think the study would benefit from an episode specifically focused on the difference between church, saints, the elect, the chosen, believers, etc. vs the idea that there are multiple categories of "saints" (e.g., OT, NT, & tribulation saints) and the reasons Pretribbers break them up into seperate groups; like what Ps Jack Hibbs has recently done in his podcasts claiming that the different garments we are given (white robes, vs garments, vs fine white linen) indicate OT or NT raptured church or tribulation saints. Unless of course I've missed that episode! 😂 Thank you for building a body of work that leaves no stone unturned. Oceans of blessings to you!

[@deniserobertson7146]

There is only One Family of God (Ekklesia) made up of Jews, Arabs, and all the Gentiles who believe in the Lord Jesus, The Christ , the Lamb of God. Your question is a good one though. It can get confusing about words like, "The Elect.." etc.

[@ww3659]

@@deniserobertson7146 I agree--it's all different flavors of the same icecream! It was interesting to do a study on the different types of clothes--in the 7 letters to the 7 churches, of the Laodicean church "I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see." The Greek word there for garments being himation--a long flowing outer garment, tunic. The same word is used for the 24 Elders' white robes. Whereas the great multitude no one could number in Rev 7 "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." the word Gk. stolé is used meaning: a long, flowing robe worn by the elite (people of high station, wealth). " "especially flowing raiment, a festal robe". These are all outer garments, but then in Rev 19, the Bride of Christ is adorned in "fine linen" Gk. bussinos and the army that returns with Christ apparently did not do a wardrobe change! LOL So based on this, Ps Jack Hibbs would have us believe that there are different classes of saints... uh, no. Neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female--ALL are ONE in Christ Jesus. That said, this I'd buy: Those who insist to be first will be last. He who strives to be the greatest will be the least, etc.

[@TheSeptuagint]

This is an interesting topic that does need clarification for some

[@koalabear19]

Pre-tribbers in my experience find excuses and shy away when their views are challenged by what the bible says, as Joel has outlined now for these past few months. My father lied to us throughout my childhood as to where he was living, claiming to be overseas....and that got him out child maintenance payments. I later found out he was only down the road, for about 10 years. I wanted to believe he was a good person as i was always well greeted. I only became free of the heart break and confusion when i faced the ugly truth that his actions proved he was a serial liar and a thief....as he committed serious child benefit fraud. That money he saved went on fancy holidays....meaning my mum had to work many extra hours when we were kids. Brethren, don't allow your preferences to influence what the evidence is clearly showing...it is so easy to do this and fight to defend the delusion out of emotional security and comfort. Know the uncomfortable truth and you will have built your house on the rock and not on the sand. I tried to make amends with my father years later as an adult and he tried getting me to join in being deceitful against my mum and sister whom had always been there when he wasn't. I've forgiven him but made it clear i will not tolerate lies and wickedness any more.

[@ww3659]

Thanks for sharing--I hope everyone reads your story. It's natural for each of us to think what we believe is true, but what does it mean to be a "lover of truth"? It means that from time to time we replace incorrect thoughts with correct ones. God doesn't expect us to know all truth, but when truth presents itself, He does expect us to test it and accept it if it is.

[@scottmarino3197]

Thank you for sharing your personal life,and the way of sin in life. It is sad to see our flesh and blood to be children of sin, and opposed to what is good. Continue in grace brother, and look forward to our redemption!

[@charlotteburton9483]

I've always been mid-post trib. Always believed our faith will be tried unto physical death, not all but some

[@garypickering7981]

I've had a brother put me to the rack on his radio program defending his pretrib position, but refused to let me respond. That is a major red flag for me, and it was for others. Brother Chris, I forgive you. ✝️🛐

[@charlotteburton9483]

I think they are simply not having their vail removed to see clearly

[@paulisaf7645]

I live in Dunnellon Florida and it's impossible to find a church that isn't pre-trib. I'm very fortunate to find FAI.

[@ramkanjeenterprises5416]

Is the church in America, Europe and some parts in Africa so aloof and pacific of the present day persecution of the church elsewhere? This includes being killed. How do one teach these Christians about pre-trib?

[@ricknofzinger]

HE TWO-PROGRAM VIEW CONFIRMED BY PASSAGES WHICH PORTRAY A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE OF THE SAINTS OF THIS AGE Not only does Irenaeus portray the tribulation saints as practicing Jews whose Judaism is honored of God, he also portrays the Gentile saints of the present age as making their departure from this defiled realm before the tribulation starts. This we see in several passages. Against Heresies 5.29.1, “And therefore, in the end when the Church is suddenly caught up from this, it is said, «There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.» For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption.” Notice the clear, unmistakable grammatical structure. “When the church is suddenly caught up, there shall be tribulation.” “When the church is suddenly caught up” is a circumstantial clause that tells us the circumstance upon which the action of the main verb hinges. The main verb clause is “there shall be tribulation.” Notice that the action is couched in the future tense. When the sudden catching up of the church is a present disconcerting fact for the world, then there shall be tribulation. This usage places the tribulation after the rapture. There is no way under the sun that this sentence can mean, “the church shall be suddenly caught up after the tribulation.” The force of the grammar in the English translation cannot be vacated by appealing to the Latin translation behind the English. The Latin says, cum … Ecclesia assumetur, erit tribulatio, “when the church is caught up, there shall be tribulation. Here again, the use of the future verb form erit “there shall be” presents the tribulation as following the rapture.

[@hughm3036]

It would have been interesting to watch you debate Chuck Missler.

[@uncommonunity787]

Thank you brother for keeping it real regarding what God's Word truly says regarding the final days. What these hardcore pre-trib teachers do not understand, is that they will stand before God to give an account for misleading the flock, and putting brothers and sisters in a position to be offended and fall away when the shock and reality comes in that they will be required to face the tribulation. Yes, show grace, but, it is dangerous if we simply ignore it and 'do not want to cause contentions'.... we are contending for the Body. Not simply making arguments that make people uncomfortable.

[@mysoulsayings7273]

@ Uncommon Unity Exactly!

[@jeanmanns4467]

Everyone has their own opinion on the Rapture..I personally go by studying the Bible and being taught by the Holy Spirit not man!

[@WayneCharron-wt8wx]

@Jean Manns..dear one in Christ..just curious as to what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you through Scriptures as to the occurrence of what you call the Rapture?..if you don't mind sharing it. Appreciate and thank you Jean for your response..blessings and joy continue increasing unto you and yours in Christ Name Amen Peace ✌

[@luciparadise6781]

@@WayneCharron-wt8wx☝️✝️🙏❤️

[@Romans--bo7br]

JOEL..... I think you misspoke at the 19:29 - 19:31 point in the video. You said.. "...clearly shows that Irenaeus, in No Way, Shape or Form, was a POST - tribber", end quote. I think you meant that ... in No Way was Irenaeus a "PRE-tribber"... Yes?

[@JoelRichardson]

Yes, I misspoke.

[@Romans--bo7br]

@@JoelRichardson.... Joel, Shalom & Thank you so much for your reply... not that you needed to. lol If I may ask... Are you in the KC, MO. area? Do you keep the Biblical Sabbath, and if so... do you teach a congregation somewhere? My wife and I live about 2 hrs drive south of KC and would drive up there if you're teaching. I bless you and yours with Num.6:24-26... in all your ways.. Always. Shalom, shalom.

[@johnmuir2960]

Actually, it wasn't until 1895, with the publication of the quarterly free publication "The Fundamentals of the Faith" that the Pretribulational Rapture became widely believed. I did my M. A. Th. thesis on this subject. I have discussed this with Mike Golay. I proved to him what he was saying, but it didn't matter to him. He will get what he deserves.

[@church7180]

Amen! If you and Joel have reached out to him and clearly told him he was teaching error and he refuses to sit down to set things straight; I would have to say he is doing much more then just teaching irresponsible. He knows exactly what he is doing!

[@OligosFew]

I pray NONE of us get what we deserve. I pray that the truth wins out, that eyes are opened and hearts repent, that all seek the Lord, His will to be done in them and their lives according to His holy word.

[@Pepsiguy]

I feel sad watching Amir peddle his pre-trib theory. Every time somebody in the Middle East gets shot, he’s right there with Ezekiel 38. Brothers, these are the good old days. Live your life to the fullest and spread the gospel while you still can.

[@ww3659]

@@OligosFew I also pray that they are rewarded according to their works. God chastens those he loves in order to bring them to repentance. I see one of two things happening: Either they continue down this path and God completely removes wisdom and reasoning from them as His judgement against them, or they do a 180 and in humility repent. May His Will be done.

[@deniserobertson7146]

Mercy on us all even Brother Golay.

[@thatguy9057]

So we are called to “overcome” during the tribulation? How do we do that considering that the antichrist is given power to war against and to “overcome the saints” Revelation 13:7-8?

[@jamescole3152]

I call what you are describing as pre trib glasses. Every verse they read they first have to put them on. ...

[@migueldesilva6772]

I am a post-trib believer. My question is who's or what is the restrainer that thwarts the appearance of the AntiChrist? as mentioned by Paul to the Thessalonuans

[@benny-yj7pq]

The claim, that the church is Israel, I agree with. I base this on Rom 11:17 that a believer in Christ is grafted into the natural olive tree of Israel and becomes a member of the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2:12). The claim, that the NT church is a new creation at Pentecost, I disagree with. The church existed already in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). God did not cut the olive tree of Israel, the root (Abraham's seed) is the same, they belong to the bride, the first fruits of the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem. Pre-trib replace them and are in danger to be cut off themselves.

[@deniserobertson7146]

Thank you, Brother Joel. That despite all the harsh criticisms, you have a heart for the People of God, the Flock, to know the Truth according to the scriptures. It seems the Pre-Tribbers are urging their people to "endure" this present evil time with the expectancy that at any moment the Rapture will carry them away. I am concerned that this is not the right kind of endurance to make it. Disappointment and disillusionment will erode and destroy people's faith.

[@ww3659]

And thus Jesus says "Will I even find faith on the earth when I return?" Our answer is "God willing, at least with me Lord, strengthen my faith."

[@rickkoscielniak7873]

None of their doctrinal beliefs concerning pre-trib pass the sniff test. It is way irritating to watch how confidently and eloquently the preach this doctrine of devils, misleading so many people. thanks Joel for your labor of Love for the truth and getting it out here. In His Grip Ps 73:22-24 God Bless you and yours.

[@aliciapierce9088]

I've read writings from the early church fathers who did in fact teach and believe in the pre tribulation rapture....

[@DominiqueWright1976]

Hi Joel, about being raptured up…. both Enoch and Elijah were raptured up alive… I appreciate your humble approach to Mike Golay. I have always been a Truth seeker and what you said did make sense. But that set aside, I have question for you… If Jesus is our Bridegroom, and Jesus is Jewish, and we are His Bride, wouldn’t it also make sense that He would follow the pattern of a Jewish Wedding? I have no problem with most of the steps of a Jewish wedding matching either a Pre- or Post-Trib pattern until the father sends his son to go and fetch His Bride and takes her to the Bridal chamber he prepared while away where they consume the marriage, and the bride remains hidden there for 7 days. At the end of the 7 days the Bride comes out of her bridal chamber and the Bridegroom unveils her to the world. I have always believed that whether it is Pre-Mid- or Post Tribulation, we believers are not under God’s wrath, but we sure have an enemy who wants to destroy us, we have to prepare for persecution like they are in other countries in the world and keep on taking every opportunity to sharing the Good News while it is still possible… I hope it will be a Pre-Trib, but I am preparing my heart to be ready in case it is not…

[@Constructive-Skeptic]

Don't we find it somewhat passively aggressive to constantly call a perspective on scripture a twisting of scripture? Do you usually refer to those who either do or do not believe the once saved always saved / opposite argument scripture twisters. We have to be mindful bot to be dogmatic - both sides are full of genuine believers let's set an example for the rest of the world in kindness

[@fyrerayne8882]

why do you suppose these guys are so determined to defend pre tribulationism despite all of the clear evidence against it?

[@MoneyLinez]

Yeshua taught that One person will be in field and be left and another will be taken away . So which one is the saved ? The one left or other taken ?

[@handles617]

The one left. Hence why it refers to the days of Noah and the phrase "they were all taken away" it was not the good people taken away.

[@-GH05T-]

The one taken away will be taken for judgement.

[@MoneyLinez]

So the one taken is not the saved

[@ww3659]

I've heard this before, but haven't seen any scriptural evidence to support the one left behind being the one saved. Not saying it's not there, but clearly it would have to be significant in light of the other rapture passages. The wheat and tares parable speaks to the 2nd ressurrection at the end of the millennial period before the white throne judgement evidenced by what happens to the tares--they are cast into the fire and burned up Matt 13:42.

[@seanc2788]

Last time water this time fire. It's the opposite of the Noah experience. During the flood the righteous remained on the earth safe in a boat. God had to preserve man in his natural habitat because Jesus had not come at that time. However, we live in different world today than Noah did. So this time, people will get taken out of the world before the burning fire comes.

[@shiner_man]

All it takes is a little effort to search the internet and see what the translated documents teach. Beyond a shadow of doubt, the early church fathers did not teach a gathering up before the start of Daniel's 70th week. You can assert, you can infer and you can flat out lie, but it will not change the message in their teachings.

[@shiner_man]

@@kakapkaper4750 I agree. Where did you get the idea that I said they did?

[@mytwocents777]

Clearly true. However, brother, Daniel's 70th week is not an unfulfilled future moment. That idea is, in fact, the foundational error upon which Dispensational pretribulationism builds itself.

[@markwhite5926]

Irenaeus was also premil (read the last 5 chapters of against heresies). Also Papius,Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Hippolytus... 99 percent of the early church until Clement of Rome came with his allegorical reading of Scripture!

[@danthacker]

No sir. The rapture is taught by Irenaeus student of John

[@goldeagletactical9945]

I’ve come to think that the pre trib theology may be, in part, a cause of the great falling away.

[@TheSeptuagint]

Perhaps they are the ones Christ tells I never knew you, you who practice lawlessness (they did not prepare themselves and did whatever they wanted instead of obeying the spiritual Torah)

[@goldeagletactical9945]

Possibly. My thoughts revolve around a failure or a departure from their faith due to an expectation of being removed before tribulation. If/when that doesn’t happen, I feel that many may lose their faith.

[@lelandglenn1788]

Jesus told Mary(Martha’s sister) that the resurrection would happen at the ‘last day’. There can be only one ‘last day’. (Also only one ‘last trump’.)

[@lepajelena7441]

I found that the Orthodox Church does not recognize a pretrib rapture, but combines the resurrection with the Second Coming.

[@livefromtexas9371]

I grew up in a pre trib church but I never heard the term “secret rapture”.

[@BelovedSigel]

What would be the point of being raptured at the end of the Tribulation if Jesus is setting up his kingdom on earth afterwards?

[@handles617]

To avoid the wrath being poured out during the trumpets and bowls as stated following the 6th seal being opened when it says "the day of their wrath" has come. Jesus doesn't want us removed, he wants us to suffer so that as many as possible can be saved. This means we are to endure until the very end to help as many as we can. We are not here to enjoy the "good life" For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer on His behalf. philippians 1 29 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. John 17 15 I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, john 17 20

[@ww3659]

That is actually a really good question. I believe Christians will be protected from God's wrath just as the Israelites were protected in Egypt from the 10 plagues (and is echoed with the church of Philidelphia in Revelation). However, that still doesn't explain the purpose for the rapture itself. Rev 20 lists three "job titles" for those who have been translated from corruptible to incorruptable: 1. Sit on thrones to judge, 2. Rule & reign, 3. Serve as priests to the Father and Jesus. I don't know about you, but to stand before the Lord in my mortal body would put an end to me! So then, there must be some aspects of the millennial reign that must be performed by those not hindered by our mortal frailties. Another aspect are the shear number of people required to rule and reign in righteousness, judge disputes, and serve our Lord--since scripture says that "men will be as rare as gold" who else is there? Finally, there must be aspects of the millennial period that require a corporeal presence--otherwise those who currently sleep in Christ would be able to rule, reign, etc. in their spirit form.

[@seanc2788]

That is such a simple question that it is extremely powerful!

[@esthervangreune7905]

When is the wrath of God? The last part of the tribulation. The Tribulation belong to the world and satan,witch God allows. We have to go through the tribulation But not Gods wrath.

[@seanc2788]

Funny how Jesus is not God. After all he opens the seals and the trumpets but somehow that is not God's judgment on the earth.

[@bjmehl2009]

Is this gentleman a Roman Catholic or Orthodox? I am assuming one of the 2 because that is what our early church fathers were. Don’t tell me he is one of the thousands of different Protestant groups that didn’t exist until after the time of Luther.

[@heknows5418]

If no rapture how in Rev 19 did the Bride get to heaven , John saw the Bride that had made herself ready , QUESTION. No rapture how and when did the Bride get there?

[@marabell2158]

It's at the last trumpet

[@DSB51]

❤🇱🇰 Really appreciate these teachings! The Holy Spirit has recently (January 2023) been showing me the grave errors of Pre-trib (all my Christian life has been about pre-trib-nearly 38yrs) and He has brought me to a clear understanding of the 6th/7th Seal Rapture. These teaching certainly reinforce how false pre-trib truly is.

[@jamesh7554]

Something I never hear people discuss in the conversation: what is the FUNCTION of tribulation? It is my understanding that the word tribulation is an agricultural term referring to the use of a tribulum. A little research into the use of a tribulum might bring to light the function of tribulation.

[@seanc2788]

That's an excellent question. I can never get anyone to tell me what the purpose of the rapture is either. Here is my take. When Adam sinned he lost 3 things: 1) His spiritual life. That happened immediately. 2) His physical life. That took 930 years. 3) His dominion over the earth. Satan took the governance of this planet away from him as man grew in number. So Jesus (the second Adam) came to redeem all three of those things. However, only one part of the redemption process is complete. 1) Jesus redeemed your spiritual life at the cross of Calvary. That means when you die (Tribulation or other) your soul goes right back to God the Father in heaven (your body remains in the ground on the earth). 2) The purpose of the rapture is to redeem your physical life. 1 Thess 4:16 talks about the graves opening up. Clearly the person soul is not in there, so it clearly means that God is calling the atoms of your body back together. This is when you get your resurrected body. 3) The purpose of the Tribulation is two fold: 1) to redeem man's dominion over the earth. How is that done? After the rapture, there will be almost 7 billion unbelievers on the planet. Before we can come back and rule and reign with Christ on the planet, a major eviction process needs to take place. Hence the 21 judgments which kill 99% of the population. The only people that will be left on the planet will be the scattered survivors from every nation, and one third of the Jewish people who are supernaturally protected in Petra by God. Which leads to the second purpose of the Tribulation 2) To fulfill Matthew 24:30 and Zechariah 12:10-14. Turn the hearts of the nation of Israel as a whole to finally recognize their Messiah.

[@jamesh7554]

@Sean C My $ 0,02, the function of tribulation is to separate the wheat from the tares. Tribulation comes from the word tribulum, which is an ancient threshing implement. If it is referring to a threshing process, then it wouldn't make sense that the grain be removed prior to the threshing. There is no reason to thresh tares and chaff if there is no grain left to separate. The purpose of the tribulation is to separate the believers from the unbelievers.

[@benny-yj7pq]

@@jamesh7554 The harvest is after the Tribulation at His 2.coming. The first what happens is the gathering of the tars then the wheat, both are believers out of His Kingdom. There are no unbelievers in His Kingdom. The survivors are gathered later in the Millennium in the judgment of the nations. Dan refers to the Tribulation as being made clean in the fire, because Yeshua comes for a clean bride. Most Christians are more or less dirty, that is what the Lord showed me of Pentecost believers.

[@seanc2788]

@@jamesh7554 So during the 21 judgments, God will let the asteroids fall on the unbelievers and not on the believers? They can smash the houses of the wicked but not the righteous? When he wipes out a third of the land mass and all the green grass is burnt up, that will be for your neighbor and not for you. Interesting. I wonder if God will do the same for the nuclear missiles when they hit their target cities. Oh wait, you can't kill these people because they have a seal. Or the massive tidal waves that are going to make islands disappear and wipe out entire coastlines on most continents. Hang on tidal wave, we need to separate out those who are righteous. So basically while complete destruction is taking place, God is going to step in a subvert the laws of physics to separate out the righteous. I'm not buying it.

[@theendtimesarehere]

There is chatter online that some are saying the Rapture is happening this May, 2023.

[@gaeilgesinger1]

ready for it any time...sticking with Yeshuah, we won't miss it...we just stay vigilant and follow Him, He Won't Let us go. Praise Yehovah! in Yeshuah's Name, Amen!❤

[@Marias_place]

Oh dear.. no one knows the time.. every other month someone makes this claim

[@WayneCharron-wt8wx]

That's good! Come what May

[@WayneCharron-wt8wx]

Everyone to their own opinion it seems

[@WayneCharron-wt8wx]

It's time to enjoy a cigar snd a glass of flavored wine 🍷

[@TheCrawfojo]

Matthew 24:40-42 is the only scripture that worries me about the rapture. Is this what is being described? How should this be refuted

[@handles617]

That is describing those who are taken and punished at the end. Note the reference before this about the unbelievers and Noah entering the ark. The word taken is used for the unbelievers. Look at the last passage about the good and evil slave, when the evil slave realizes his master is not coming at the time he expected he goes into denial and starts to act abusive to his fellow "slaves" and then the master comes and cuts him in two. No pause.

[@ww3659]

@@handles617 I was reading through the commentaries on this passage and the jury is still out. Half of the commentators lean toward the ones taken being the righteous, and the others toward the ones left being the righteous. If the ones left are the righteous, this lends itself more toward the wheat & tares parable which speaks to the 2nd ressurrection, not the first. I would lean more towards the righteous are the one's taken if the parable is in context of the 1st ressurrection, BUT then in context, the master who is on watch is trying to prevent the theif from taking ANYTHING, BUT then Jesus comes as a theif to take... so... HA! There, I've run rings around myself logically! 🤣 Here's a commentary that sums it up: Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (40) The one shall be taken.-Literally, the present tense being used to express the certainty of the future, one is taken, and one is left. The form of the expression is somewhat obscure, and leaves it uncertain which of the two alternatives is the portion of the chosen ones. Is the man who is “taken” received into fellowship with Christ, while the other is abandoned? or is he carried away as by the storm of judgment, while the other is set free? On the whole, the use of the Greek word in other passages (as, e.g., in Matthew 1:20; Matthew 1:24; Matthew 12:45; John 1:11; John 14:3) is in favour of the former interpretation. What is taught in any case is that the day of judgment will be, as by an inevitable law, a day of separation, according to the diversity of character which may exist in the midst of the closest fellowship in outward life. BTW--I appreciate reading all your comments--good job!

[@seanc2788]

You should be worried. Matthew 24:36-51 is for the church and is exactly the rapture. But none of these people actually touch on those verses. Instead they falsely claim that Matthew 24:1-35 is actually for the church, when it is for the Jew in Israel.

[@hawkabomb]

Even if the early church did believe in a pre-trib scenario, so much scripture speaks against it. The early church, even disciples of the Apostles were still fallible humans at that time, and their word is not authoritative. We can't take mans' words and interpret scripture.

[@ww3659]

Agreed. There were a few topics that the early writers went beyond scripture to give their opinions about, that we now know were completely off. The value of the early writers is getting a sense of what God's word meant to them in their culture/time period.

[@rickkoscielniak7873]

Where do all liars go? Also what happens to those that take away from the prophecies of Revelations or add things to it???? Is this not what all the die-hard pre-trip teachers are doing?

[@norrisonian]

Joel, you are so correct on twisting the words but they have a vested interest ($$$) in twisting them! Th Speaking of Amir, they are getting RICH through tours, teaching around the world, books, etc. The way I see it is it's the truth vs $$$, sadly.

[@94jibber]

Protecting the flock under your care is the most important

[@ww3659]

And the most frightening if you don't. The telltale sign of a hired hand is that when the wolves come, they run. I'm seeing more and more hired hands--true pastors and shepherds are a dying breed.