Eusebius Refuting the False Claims of Pretribulationists // THE RAPTURE & ENDURANCE OF THE SAINTS

[@Deacondan240]

Only ONE more coming! Amen! May the Spirit drop the scales over the eyes of our brothers and sisters.

[@jacobdrollinger4802]

Scripture doesn't say that Jesus is coming all the way back down for us, but we shall all be caught up together in the air, not on the Earth.

[@phillyhope27]

The sealed in their foreheads will be here...the elect will be here, the Spirit and the bride are still here in the last chapter of Revelations....STILL HERE !

[@JahRootsRadio]

STILL HERE 👊🏾

[@kennethsantos6824]

Thank you Joel for all you do I always enjoy your programs.

[@scbt2888]

Tradition is a powerful thing. I was brought up pre-trib with other views being labeled as heresy. Now that I have put what I was taught aside and studied the scriptures for myself I can see how manipulative pre-trib teachers are. Even when presented with clear evidence to the contrary they double down and look for anything that would hint at a pre-trib rapture. When that falls short they use manipulative tactics. It's so sad to see them only looking for the rapture at any moment when they need to be preparing for tribulation. I can't help but wonder how many will fall away when persecution finally comes their way.

[@chriseaston4267]

Yes my brother I feel the same way I had some brothers from my church come and they wanted to see how I get my view and I showed them scripture over and over but still they tried to argue with many profes from Jesus but it got them searching 🔥🙏

[@mackjones6156]

Truth be spoken brother Bill. Baruch Shalom Blessed Peace be upon thine beloved ones.

[@squirreljones3595]

Mystery Babylon added the church/bride to the thousand year reign of Jesus John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times. Judgment day is the Last day

[@donhaddix3770]

Tereo ek tay-reh'-o Verb NAS Word Usage - Total: 71 1. to attend to carefully, take care of a. to guard b. metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is c. to observe d. to reserve: to undergo something Ek ek Preposition NAS Word Usage - Total: 62 1. out of, from, by, away from

[@Mathetes1]

@@donhaddix3770 Stop spreading lies. You know Joel has already done a video disproving claims that this refers to the rapture.

[@uncommonunity787]

While my hope (and constant prayer) is that my pre-trib brothers and sisters wake up to the reality of it being a lie and strong delusion before the tribulation hits, I also realize that God may very well use that 'shaking and waking up' to increase their faith, while some of them may fall away, and I cannot do anything about it. I love my church and church family (though our pastor teaches a pre-trib notion), and, if anything, I remain encouraged that I may be able to keep them FOCUSED on Jesus and not falling away when the tribulation hits, and they begin to wonder why we have not been raptured yet. We who know the truth must be READY to endure brothers and sisters who will become discouraged, offended and be tempted to fall away, and we must be WILLING and READY to encourage them and hold them up until the Lord returns, or we finish the race in martyrdom (Revelation 13:7). Thank you Joel. Maranatha!

[@jenniferlankford5301]

Is it crazy that I'm in the same boat as you. My thoughts exactly. May JESUS guide us. Bless you

[@chriseaston4267]

Amen

[@chriseaston4267]

I'm exactly 💯 going through the same thing

[@robin-figtree]

Amen, well said. I stand in agreement in Jesus name!

[@chuckw8391]

My gosh, I couldn’t hang. That’s tough, how do you know when to leave a church/church family?

[@martinacassidy2438]

Really appreciating these studies

[@30dayride67]

I just want to say thank you for these lessons and discussions. This is what I learned from my childhood, but now it's hard to find people around me that haven't chosen to follow the pre-trib movement. I'll admit that I really wanted them to be right, but none could ever convince me. Mostly because they all gave the exact same verses for proof and could never explain anything further. Many would just insult my ability to read rather than have a discussion. Now, I see so many seem to think that if things get bad here in the US it's rapture time. I worry about some losing their faith if just the US has a major crisis much less the tribulation and it's really spreading through those who are just starting to explore the Bible for the first time.

[@angierobinson1651]

The one fact that always gets me is that the wording "Last" trumpet is overlooked. The word "last" has a meaning... and if we have a last trumpet sounding for the rapture, then there wouldn't be 7 other trumpets that come later. Last is last.

[@chriseaston4267]

Amen sister

[@kevinquinn225]

No getting around that!!

[@MeTuLHeD]

Also...first means FIRST. The First Resurrection. Oh the twisting they do to escape from that one.

[@angierobinson1651]

@@MeTuLHeD No twist at all, the first resurrection is the resurrection of the saints of God at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, very straight forward. The next resurrection is the resurrection of the dead. None of this has ever been in question.

[@JesusIsComing1111]

True fact

[@bettycarmella1127]

God bless you brother and your precious wife Amy🙏🏽

[@Strongtower]

"For in Asia, also, mighty luminaries have fallen asleep, which shall rise again at the last day, at the appearance of the Lord, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall gather again all the saints. " Eusebius Ecclesiastical History book 3:31 Paul says the dead in Christ will rise first. They will be raised at the last day at Jesus's public second coming. We who are alive will not be gathered to Jesus until the dead in Christ rise first. “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.” ‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4‬:‭15‬-‭16‬ ‭

[@Strongtower]

Jesus also says we will be raised on the last day. Not 7 years before the last day. John 6:39 "Now this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. John 11:24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

[@debbiewareing1178]

@StrongTower Excellent scriptural points. Well said.

[@just_me2797]

I am not certain what you are trying to indicate here. You simply posted scripture with stating a point.

[@johnpearce3714]

@ Strong Tower , YES , thanks for the GOSPEL message , which is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH for HE the LORD YESHUA /JESUS CHRIST is the TRUTH ---

[@lionsden2835]

There is a video about this person on a channel called "Act of Mercy" something is off with him

[@lynnriggs4244]

Maranatha YHWH bless all ❤️ HalleluYAH ❤️

[@dnluve]

Shalom 🙏

[@geridannels1701]

Thanks Joel, you guys and gals happy pray faithfully summer. I don't want to miss the summit but cant maķe the tickets, fly...darnit! You Joel are a great artfully skilled teacher. You drive into my thick head to the point, point of Maranatha!❤

[@acolley2891]

"God has NOT given us a Spirit of fear." I hold to my belief that this pretrib rapture doctrine will contribute to the apostasy. To be clear, not all pretribbers will fall away but consider the parable of the wicked servant. The master doesnt return when expected, so he gets drunk and beats his fellow servants. Maranatha!

[@mimster58]

I use to believe pre-trib, but once you search the scriptural with prayers for clarification from the Holy Spirit, it's clear, Christ followers will be here during the tribulation. Also, we'll never know the day of Jesus's coming. The Father only knows but we will see the signs of the nearing of his return. Maranatha

[@barbaradiederich3709]

I really like the opening sound tract!

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

Full version at: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qpPGq3qQoJmJh6s

[@dlove9034]

Still at it with the work 🙏🏾

[@Over-for-now]

Satan is SO busy in religion. How heartbreaking 😢

[@ILOVEYESHUA1ST]

Eusebius has described theOne New Man the Ekklesia maybe without knowing it. The problem is people view the “church” as separate from His people Israel rather than the Gentile inclusion into Israel.

[@BrotherInChrist]

We are grafted into the "Israel of God," Amen... Are Gentile believers members of the commonwealth of Israel? Who was grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Romans 11? Paul wrote that a true Jew is one inwardly with a circumcised heart, and that circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, and not by the letter? Is the inward Jew a member of the cultivated olive tree? In the epistle to the Romans, Paul writes, “Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.” Is the Israel that Paul is referring to, the cultivated olive tree? In the epistle to the Ephesians, Paul writes about a mystery-that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. Is this one body the cultivated olive tree? Jesus said He has two folds and they will become one flock. Is the one flock of Jesus the cultivated olive tree? Hebrews 11:39-40Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) informs us that the NT and OT saints are made perfect together. Are these perfected, glorfied saints the cultivated olive tree? Hebrews 12:23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), in a vision, identifies an assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, coming to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant. Is this assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, the cultivated olive tree? This prophetic vision meets fulfillment in Revelation 14:1-5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), in the heavenly Mount Zion; the redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb. Cultivated olive tree? Revelation 1:6Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) and 5:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) points to a group of people who Jesus Christ has redeemed by His blood, to be a kingdom and priests. Is this kingdom of priests, freed from sin by the blood of Christ, the cultivated olive tree? Revelation 7:9Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) prophecies this same group, resurrected and raptured, glorified, and standing before the throne of God and the Lamb, from every nation, tribe, and tongue, wearing white robes and holding palm branches. Cultivated olive tree? Is there a spiritual Israel? What do you call the body of glorified saints who will rule and reign with Christ on earth? Are the glorified saints members of the cultivated olive tree? Is the cultivated olive tree the Israel of God? In Isaiah 49 the Messiah is referred to as Israel. Because Gentile believers are in the Messiah, Jesus, does that include them as members of the cultivated olive tree, the Israel of God? Are the sons of Abraham the Israel of God? Who are the sons of Abraham? The sons of Abraham, counted righteous by faith, comprise the cultivated olive tree; they are Jew, and Gentile-the “Israel of God…” The eternal covenant community of YHWH redeemed by the Lamb… The bride of Christ… The saints of the Most High God.

[@toocat2000000]

@@BrotherInChrist This video was doing really good until they started harping on about the country called Israel . Eusebius was right about the true Israel and it aint a country in the Middle East. You have used the scriptures well to prove your point. Meanwhile the true Christians are being blown to pieces and persecuted in Palestine and they want us to send money to the haters of Jesus ?

[@jenniferlankford5301]

Alot of people think tribulations is GOD'S wrath. Its not the same thing. GOD'S wrath after return of JESUS

[@angierobinson1651]

Yes, I noticed that too. It really drives home to importances of making sure the meanings you have are correct... like Tribulation is "Trial" not wrath...and the seals and trumpets are part of this trial... but the bowls/vials are the wrath of God.

[@Kman.]

Your claim brings no scripture to substantiate it.

[@jenniferlankford5301]

@@Kman. how isn't scriptural. Not trying to be argumentative but It's In the Bible. For a few books Matthew, Daniel, Revelations for a few. Not to mention The Great and Awful Day of the LORD. Sorry I don't have chapters and versus. But Matthew 24 is a good place. Don't forget about the wonderful books of Isiah, Ezekiel well all of them. I'll find the right scriptures to share with you. Be back

[@Kman.]

@@jenniferlankford5301 I don't desire to drag this out, but your INITIAL statement was, "The tribulation is not God's wrath", & you offered up NO scripture to validate that. In contrast I will say that the tribulation *IS* God's wrath & here's why... *Rev 6:17* we read where LOST people mind you, make the following observation, or declaration where they say, "For the great day of his WRATH *IS COME...* *Rev 6:17* "IS COME" in the Greek points to a PREVIOUS arrival of wrath, NOT s/thing that is imminent or is yet to be. It's the aorist, indicative, active Greek tense...it's the grammarian’s term for a simple PAST tense, that an action HAS happened. It's an objective fact. There is an _ONGOING_ aspect in the usage. It is a situation that actually IS, as opposed to a situation that might be, wished for, commanded to be, or will be. If LOST people can make the arrive at the conclusion, that what's been happening is the "WRATH" of God, then we as believers should easlily recognize it as well. Look at it this way... This coming *July 4th,* if you were to step outside & the temp was 101 degrees with a humidity reading off the charts & sweat started to run down your spine & forehead before the door even closed behind you and you declare, "WOW, summer sure is come!", would that "kick off" the summer, or in reality, wouldn't summer have OFFICIALLY STARTED on *June 21st* fourteen days prior? Make sense? All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*

[@artifacthunter1472]

@@Kman. The church has seen tribulation from the beginning till the end wrath is complete destruction you are blind!

[@Sindi63084]

No one is going anywhere until John 17:21-23 happens. First things first. Jesus prayed that ALL of us be ONE.. just like He and the Father are one; and that's how the world will know that God sent Him. Today we're all divided and segmented. We have become the stumbling block for sinners to know Him. So I believe a revival is coming first; God will do away with churches in a spectacular amazing way where evil pastors/predators will be destroyed and innocent christians trapped in these churches are set free. When we become one then great multitudes of sinners will come to Jesus, even Muslims will be delivered in their millions. His prayer was not wishful thinking or empty words, it will happen. Prep for that revival.

[@handles617]

That's just not true. His prayer doesn't even start at verse 21 either. Verse 20 literally says "those that believe in me" followed by verse 21 "that they may all be one" It's quite clear he means that those who believe in him will be one with the father, and not just nominal Christians who vaguely believe. Both jesus and Paul explicitly state there will be a great falling away before his return. Plain and simple.

[@Sindi63084]

​​@@handles617 don't deny scriptures because the scripture correct us not the other way round. Jesus bride will be ONE before He comes and that's what Rev 19 alludes to when it says 'His bride is ready.' You know very well even where you live that on Sunday you go past a church going to church. You can' t enter that church yet they preach Jesus just like your church. So which one is going to heaven, your church or the one you go past?? With your human understanding you might not see it but He will make it happen!

[@handles617]

@JW you're the only one denying scripture. There will be a great falling away. You're literally the only one ignoring and cherry picking.

[@Sindi63084]

​@@handles617 falling away and the bride being one are 2 separate scenarios and both will happen. The true church will be ONE, in everything they are and do; which will be a testimony to the world that Jesus is the one. Us vs them will be completely gone. We will happen. Today you tell sinner to go to church he asks ' which one?' Sinners mock Jesus bcos of our differences. That's what Satan wants. A divided church; but Jesus will unite his body. It could mean going thru the great tribulation to kill the self and egoes, it will happen.

[@handles617]

@JW Wrong. Mass belief in God implies everyone suddenly turns to him in mass numbers at the end. The falling away and the punishment and mass DEATH are contrary to this and clearly state that those who don't believe in time will be killed. In other words the exact opposite happens. Rather than what you are claiming "they just turn to him" what really happens is that a bunch of people out themselves as fake Christians when it gets bad and the wicked are judged and taken out. It's a subtraction not an addition. Jesus isn't coming back to congratulate us on a job well done, he's coming back to deliver us and judge. That's why jesus repeatedly uses parables to show the separation of the wicked from the believers at his coming, where the wicked are then burned. Again, you are the only one ignoring scripture. Secondly, the bride is the church, not humanity. The bride is made pure because the lukewarm will be outed and made to pay. This is why jesus states that the lukewarm are worse than those who never knew. The 2nd coming is him filtering out the church to separate the real from the fake. The end will only have christians and the wicked, no fake and real christians mixed together. There is no holding of hands of humanity at the end. There is just destruction of the wicked and the church rescued by him and joining him at the end.

[@annihall5385]

God help me just walked out of rapture teaching message at church im so done with it im sitting outside wondering where do I go from here please pray for me I got really angry walked out of church

[@Kman.]

What's your issue? Is this the church you're a member of? To state that you're literally SITTING OUTSIDE WONDERING WHERE YOU GO after hearing a message, then there's some *DEEPER* issues you need to deal with other than a message from God's word, just sayin'. And please take no offense.

[@jasondacalio7760]

I was indoctrinated as a Catholic- post trib, but never thought much about it. After I was born again and baptized, I heard of the pre-trib teaching by various preachers, then I studied the teaching. I found 2 resurrection(righteous/unrighteous), a loud, not so secret return of Jesus and the resurrected church will meet-(apantesis= the act of going out to meet a dignitary or monarch to escort the party back to your place of dormain) the Lord in the air.

[@artifacthunter1472]

Baptism is blood not H2O and the first resurrection is the born-again experience!

[@mkl2237]

Pre-Trib HAS to be true… there’s a whole fictional book series and a horrible Nicholas Cage movie that proves it !!!

[@tonyubaka3810]

Ur sarcasm is something else

[@johnpearce3714]

@ MKL , The LORD YESHUA / JESUS CHRIST is the WAY ,the TRUTH & the LIFE ,no * man can come to the FATHER except through ME --- John 14 V.6 ---- **** ref. Man / Woman. ------ Are you Saved ??? If not ,thus repent from your UNBELIEF to thus TRULY BELIEVE TRUST only on in HIM for Salvation and Eternal LIFE , ---- read 1 Corinthians 15 VS. 1 ----- 4 ---- Acts 4 V.12 , 16 VS.27 ----- 32 ----

[@chriseaston4267]

Lol😂

[@AltaAnastazYah]

NOPE...all.made up by Freemasons like Jesuit John Nelson Darby.

[@kennethsantos6824]

Nicholas Cage has never made a horrible movie, but I agree with the rest of your statement.

[@donmiles5080]

I was raised in a church that taught pre trib theology. Most of the churches I've been in have taught pre trib theology. All that prophecy and end times stuff in the Bible always seemed so confusing so I'd sit through classes at church taught by the smart people. Then one day I read it all for myself trying to ignore all that I'd been taught. All of sudden it all made sense and the Bible clearly was teaching a post trib rapture of the church. The great tribulation is the tribulation of the church. The tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same thing. That's where most pre trib believers make their big mistake, in assuming the tribulation and the wrath of God against all evil are the same thing.

[@therealgingerbeardman]

Even with his “quote” (misquote) of Eusebius, I still don’t think he makes a solid pre-trib argument. God’s wrath is being misunderstood as the tribulation. I think an in depth clarification between the two would clear up a lot of people’s misunderstandings.

[@johnmuir2960]

There are many Pre-trib teachers who make these kinds of false claims. It is very sad for the Church that these people have such large followings. But we should expect this because it is prophesized by Paul. They will continue to draw large crouds because we all wish what they claim is true. Sadly, it is not. I am inclined to believe all these false teachers will be destroyed as false prophets. But I know God is far more forgiving than me. So, we will have to leave that in God's hands. J.M.M.

[@squirreljones3595]

Mystery Babylon added the church/bride to the thousand year reign of Jesus John 6 39-54 Jesus says at the Last day four times Judgment day is the Last day Jesus is Truth Keep the Faith

[@kennybloyd9631]

The problem with the pre-trib rapture position is that precisely where it is Biblically correct it is not unique, and precisely where it is unique it is not Biblically correct.

[@destinycoach5]

Joel... I'm writing to ask you AGAIN to interview Tim Coen or discuss AC and cup of Tea for many others are doing so and are changing their mind about Charles. It's gaining momentum and I think its worthy of some of your attention.

[@handles617]

I've seen large articles dedicated to claiming germany was the head of the antichrist all based on a couple vague inferences and assumptions and then just running with that for the rest of their "fill in the blanks" I've seen people claim so hard that Obama or Bush or trump is the antichrist. The reality is that the idea of a nominal king, yes that's correct, he's essentially a government funded Kardashian, being the antichrist is simply going against what the bible says about the antichrist. No, I don't care how many numbers games you try to play with to come up with it. Fyi, using numbers to find a divine relationship with correlating events is called numerology, which is a form of divination. This is a sin in the bible. So if I were you I would get away from it, as using numbers to try to find mysteries is nothing new and people have done this for thousands of years endlessly without success. In case you're wondering, the antichrist is the king of the north in daniel 11, and the prophecy has a foreshadowing set of events and followed by verse 36 onward being the time skip to the end time antichrist. The king of the north was the leader antiochus epiphanes, a self given name, which means God manifest. You heard that right, he called himself God manifest(in the flesh). He desecrated the temple and put a statue of Zeus in it and poured pigs blood in the temple and forced jews to worship the statue. Antiochus is the foreshadow of the endtime antichrist who will come from the same region as him. Fyi, that would be turkey. Just as turkey meets the geographic description of magog(gog is another name for antichrist), the "assyrian"(antichrist as well, assyrians controlled a lot of turkey), the 7 kings prophecy, the 7th is the islamic caliphate, the 8th is the revival(the 7th is the head that was wounded and healed, this happened when the ottomans collapsed and the caliphate was removed) Essentially, to come up with king Charles as the antivhrist, one has to ignore certain prophesies at their convenience and then play number games to try and play it up as "too good to just be a coincidence) Same logic people use to claim to know when the rapture happens. It "all aligns" until it doesn't as always. Why? Because that's not how it works. The spirit of the antichrist is the one who denies that Jesus is the son. Perfect example would be Islam. They specifically deny this and claim him to be a mere man who did not die on the cross.

[@WaitingOnHisReturnJennyBee7220]

I listen to a rebuttal of prewrath yesterday by Chris and Andy woods I asked him to debate you

[@leialee6820]

I would like to add something which shows quite literally why Jesus's Return in Great Glory will happen very, very soon after the Sun is darkened & no longer shines & the moon turns to blood & the stars fall from the skies & this is it because when the Sun no longer shines the Earth will go cold & soon be very cold without heat from the Sun to warm the Earth & man would not be able to survive the freezing temperatures so Christ's Return would have to be very soon indeed.

[@smithsmithington]

Today on twitter people shared some of Lee's interviews from different channels here on KZbin. I was waiting for even one simple piece of scripture to give substance to his arguments that wasn't a pieced together collage of things from historical writer's quotes. I saw none that used plain scripture to back them up. The other 90% of the video's run times were him and the hosts venting about anyone who disagrees with them.

[@Kman.]

Nothing is "PIECED" together. in a way which you want to describe/define what he's said. What you're doing, however, is making an Appeal to Oversimplification. You're introducing a logical fallacy & any argument you're wanting to bring is derailed before you even leave the station.

[@smithsmithington]

@@Kman. The problem isn't if he has formed a coherent theology in his mind. It is that he depends heavily on old Christian writers for his ideas. Instead of the Bible. Just because people believed something in the past doesn't automatically make it Biblical. See Mormonism and the LDS.

[@Kman.]

@@smithsmithington Incorrect. His position rests on the Word. His arguments are not an Appeal to Tradition. *MARANATHA!*

[@smithsmithington]

@@Kman. Yeah, man, I'm not trying to fight. We all want Christ to come. As long as when you think he'll come doesn't drive you to complacency in your walk and command to make disciples... good luck.

[@mikehaney6922]

Brainard likes to play the pre trib 'circuit ' esp. when he has a book to sell. Tom Hughes loves to pump him up.

[@Kman.]

What an unfounded claim you just made there guy, *SMH.*

[@fifajjang77]

Post-trib view understands "The Day of the Lord" to refer exclusively to the “Second Coming” of Christ, which occurs after the 7-year tribulation. On the other hand, Pre-trib view considers "The Day of the Lord" to mean the entire sequence of events of the “7-year tribulation.” I struggle to understand how "The Day of the Lord" can be described as coming like a thief in the night if it is only connected to the Second Coming of Christ. When the tribulation begins and people experience its effects, the Second Coming will not feel sudden or unexpected for the people. The Post-Trib view interprets the phrase "that the day would overtake you like a thief" (1 Thess 5:4) to imply that believers will not “feel” surprised or caught off guard like encountering a thief. According to this view, both unbelievers and believers will go through and “experience” the same events, but “unbelievers” will “feel” the suddenness and surprise of the Lord’s Coming, whereas “believers,” being aware of Jesus' coming, will not “feel” that sense of surprise as if encountering an unexpected thief. However, I have serious doubts about whether this is what Paul intended to convey in 1 Thess 5. Paul's intention seems to be more than just a matter of “feelings.” Rather, Paul is suggesting that while unbelievers will indeed “experience” the tribulation as a theft, believers will not actually go through that “same experience” of tribulation as a thief in the night. It’s not a matter of “feelings” but actual “experience.” This is why I adhere to the Pre-tribulation view, as I believe "The Day of the Lord" is synonymous with the entire 7-year tribulation period. The "onset" of the tribulation, its beginning, may come unexpectedly like a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2), but for believers, "that day" (referring to the 7-year tribulation) will not overtake us as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:4) because we will be raptured (1 Thess 4:17) just before the tribulation "that day" begins. Just a simple and natural reading of 1 Thess 4-5 will lead any readers to this conclusion.

[@Kman.]

I couldn't have stated it any better brother, *MARANATHA!*

[@fifajjang77]

@@Kman. Thank you brother! Have a blessed Sunday afternoon!

[@formless4541]

Pre tribulation believers ask "who populates the millenium"? The answer is children will be born during the tribulation, and a few will remain, and not every single soul is killed when christ returns.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

How about all the aborted kids?

[@johnpearce3714]

The LORD YESHUA / JESUS CHRIST has stated / states that HE will be returning at the END of the AGE. HE is the WORD of GOD , All of you in the Comments who believe in the so called Pre - Trib ---- read the WORDS of CHRIST in Mathew 24 ,Luke 21 , HIS Prophet Daniel , HIS Apostle John in the book of Revelation --- ----- * Keep Away from Fictional book / series & Fake Movies with Nicholas Cage & others !! ----

[@MuchFruit]

Matthew 24 and Luke 21 are different events. The pre trib rapture is in Luke 21 only.

[@samhunt8760]

Does it really matter when it happens? just be ready at all times and Love Jesus with your all!!!

[@eswn1816]

Answer: "Yes" it matters as those who do not believe that they will go through tribulation will not prepare for it... Disappointed and fearful they will be ripe for the apostasy prophesized. Teach the church the purpose of suffering... 🙏

[@stevem3322]

Yes

[@imallrightwhosleft4832]

It will matter a whole lot when it plays out live....

[@mistywaters1508]

Do you think when he said His people and His church that he was meaning they were one and the same? I see that anyone who is saved is an adopted Jew for it was written in three languages above His head “King of the Jews”! And Paul declares we (although my ancestors are Jewish,Native American and then mothers side) we are grafted into the Tree(Israel). The leaves began appearing about 10-15 years ago (Messianics). Maranatha!

[@MeTuLHeD]

All who are in Christ are Abraham's seed...whether ethnically Jew or Gentile. Our ethnicity doesn't matter at all. Only faith matters.

[@toddthurman118]

Or reference to the fulfillment of the Gentiles?

[@boldbeliever52]

Joel is perhaps still awaiting the Messiah to appear for the FIRST time.

[@handles617]

Nope, just because pre trib is wrong doesn't mean you need to make sarcastic comments to feel better about yourself.

[@boldbeliever52]

@@handles617 that is not a sarcastic comment. If Joel believes Christ did and fact come and promised to come AGAIN for his bride, why would Joel expect God to beat up Jesus bride before he comes to get her? Why would the church be part of a time called JACOBS trouble? Iron sharpens iron.

[@handles617]

@boldbeliever52 it's not beating up the bride. This is what pre trib doesn't understand. The bible never describes the 7 years, tribulation and gods wrath as interchangeable. This is an inserted doctrine. This is why the early church never believed it. Darby is the reason for it being a thing. I could easily ask you the following question; why are the gentiles punished in the time of jacobs trouble if it's called "jacobs" trouble?? It's a nonsensical question. There are countless flaws with pre trib

[@georgefeneysey619]

Sloppy is not the word to use. Deceptive is more like it.

[@bettertoday7070]

Why do these videos have so much fluff? Just get to the point please. There is only 5 minutes worth of content here.

[@kevinquinn225]

Heb9:28 KJV "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the SECOND time without sin unto salvation." He came the first time as the suffering Lamb of God, to take our sins, he comes ONE more time as our great King!! Thats it! Not 3 times or 2.5 times. Twice!! Thats it!!

[@Kman.]

When Christ came to bear our sins @ Calvary, THAT took place here on earth, right? When Christ comes & establishes His millennial reign at the end of the tribulation, THAT will take place here on earth, RIGHT? Well the RAPTURE is an event that will take place in the AIR, so you may continue to hoist up a straw man at your pleasure, but at the rapture He comes FOR us, & the 2nd coming He comes WITH us. *MARANATHA!*

[@kevinquinn225]

@@Kman. Yes meets us in the air, at the last day, with His return to establish His kingdom. On the last day! Twice! Matt24:29-30 He gathers His elect " after the tribulation" in route to His annihilation of Antichrist with the saints! Parallel scripture would be Mk13:24-27 and Lk21. I for many, many years believed in a pre-trib doctrine. It is dangerous and will lead people to be "offended" at God himself because they see the falsehood of their preachers and bible teachers and WILL fall away! The pre-trib doctrine is predicated and based on the belief of Dispensationalism. A treacherous doctrine! I have a verse for you, Please read 1Cor15:51,52. "at the last trump" we will be changed in the twinkling of the eye! The "last trump" is Rev11:15-19. Is the "last" trumpet, the last? Are we taken in the 7th Trumpet, the last trumpet or are we taken 7 years before? Which would make this very clear scripture a lie! I was offended in by-gone days also, when this doctrine was debated, but soon found I could not hold it in light of scriptural truth! My heart goes out to you as I fully understand having been there myself, for decades brother!

[@Kman.]

@@kevinquinn225 "ELECT" are not the church. You're begging the question brother...getting the cart before the horse...you've got the tail waggin' the dog. To boot, with the scenario you propose, you erase heaven from our future. We MUST needs go there for bot the Bema, & also the marriage to the Lamb. In Christ's kingdom here on earth, He doesn't rule/reign as JUDGE, rather He reigns as KING! That Bema judgment is in heaven, NOT here on earth. Both *Rom **14:10* and *II Cor **5:10* bear this out.

[@anthonycunno6246]

We have Tim Lahaye and Jerry B Jenkins to thank for the Left behind series. They have led so many people astray with that nonsense.

[@janicelane8979]

Mary spoke of Lazarus being raised in the resurrection at the last day. She didn’t say at pre-trib rapture. Job told of sleeping in the grave till the heavens pass away (end of days). If there is pre- trib rapture then how can Jesus come as a thief in the night because everyone will expect that he will return 7 years after rapture.

[@Kman.]

"Last day" doesn't necessarily speak of a 24 hour time slot as we measure time. It will be properly u/stood when looking at the CONTEXT. *2ndly,* Job's BODY will be in the grave till the end of the tribulation, yes, for it's at THAT time that OT saints & tribulation saints are resurrected. *3rdly,* the "thief in the night" imagery is NEVER tied to the rapture, it's always the 2nd coming.

[@handles617]

​@@Kman. correct. The dead believers all rise first. Those righteous are risen. All at the end. The day of the Lord. When the wrath of the Lamb is poured out. Not a single verse indicates pre trib. Pre wrath is right and the sooner you understand that, the safer you will be from apostasizing in the tribulation.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

The Resurrection Lazarus would have been part of if Jesus hadn't raised Lazarus from the dead, would have been THIS Resurrection, after Jesus rose from the grave... ^^^ Matthew 27:52-53 KJV And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

​​@@handles617 you need to be quiet and LEARN instead of trying to be a theologeon... The WRATH Paul is referring is the LAKE OF FIRE FOREVER due to unbelief. Paul wasn't addressing ones crying about judgment during the Tribulation. You need to get this straight before you want to start arguing nonsense.

[@artifacthunter1472]

@@Kman. The last day is the last 24 hour period when Christ returns when no Day shall follow!

[@shelleyclay1732]

Iam getting confused, the scripture that states god himself will come, then Jesus will come after the tribulation, so i know god sent his son here on earth he walked, god stayes no one has ever seen him, so there are (2) so if theres a scripture that states every eye shall see me, (god)said it not Jesus, so he will let people see him , so then the final finally he sends his son back .😅

[@shelleyclay1732]

Your saying there is no rapture, only that we are waiting for the tribulation and once over we will only see Jesus?

[@handles617]

​@Shelley Clay he places the timing with the last trumpet as his own personal variation.

[@emilesturt3377]

It's a similar, equally desperate, yet well meaning attempt to that of John Gill trying to support "proto -Calvinism" in the quotes of the Ante-Nicene, pre Augustinian Fathers. in context... it's simply not there.

[@jacobdrollinger4802]

In other words, no rapture, only suffering and pain until they put us to death. 😒

[@handles617]

You are saved from the wrath of the Lamb. FYI, you, living in the western world, clearly don't understand that most Christians actually live in poor countries where they actually struggle unlike us. They also deal with persecution. Many are even killed. You stating that it's bad to claim we will be killed is what's wrong with today's lukewarm church. Nobody is willing to lay down their life or even their friends and family for the gospel. Yet they expect this is what jesus died for? He died so that we would be spiritually saved, not physically. I do not ask that you take them out of the world but to keep them from the evil one...I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in me through their word.

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 In refreshing the comment section, I see you're hard at trying to defend s/thing again. Just two things as it relates to your comment here... *1* In trying to insert *John 17* into the conversation, it like trying to cram the square peg into the round hole, for it has ZERO to do with the 7 yr tribulation...nada, zilch, cero. It is *NOT* an eschatological passage, WOW. *2* The "wrath" of the Lamb (as has been pointed out to you & also ignored), is found throughout the *E N T I R E* tribulation period. This hasn't been brought to your attention & maybe in your personal studies you've just _s k i p p e d_ over it w/o realizing what's being said, but... In *I Thess **1:10* we read, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath TO COME." The believer is ALREADY saved from the fires of hell when they believed, "He that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God ABIDETH on him." *John 3:36* So for the believer, there IS not eternal wrath "TO COME" for them, however... The current state of the UN-believer on the o/hand, is under God's sentence of eternal wrath as the verse reads. The only wrath "TO COME" would be that of the tribulation period, & the verse clearly states that we are saved FROM it. *Rev 3:10* further reinforces this truth as do many other passages.

[@handles617]

@Kman as usual, since you're not gonna bother to reply to your comments, I won't bother to reply to yours. If John 17 is not a rapture verse in spite of the phrase "take them out of the world" then half the verses you use to refer to the rapture aren't either. My mere point was that revelation 3 10 does 2 things. It refers to an hour of temptation and says keep from it. Temptation is a term with spiritual meaning. The discussion of keeping from the temptation was about being kept safe from that temptation. Not avoiding physical hardship. It's spiritual escape not physical escape. The other thing within this statement being that the phrase keep from is used. The same as John 17. John 17 15 and 20: I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but to KEEP THEM FROM the evil one. I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in me through their word. We have 2 things once again. A statement to specifically NOT take the believers out of the world, but to stay in it despite the hardships and to instead be protected from temptations. The EXACT same thing as revelation 3 10 which states I will keep you from the hour of temptation. The focus is placed on keeping them from temptation, not the physical aspect from the temptation.

[@handles617]

@Kman again nothing you've said actually determines a timeframe for it. 5th seal specifically states that God has refrained from judging and avenging. The lord responds by saying waitna little longer. He DIDNT correct them. It's only when the 6th seal is complete that the wrath is now there. Because he is now coming. As for your little comment about John 3 36 that is just incredibly silly. The "life" he refers to is all eternal. He only uses life instead of eternal life for the 2nd use of the word because he just used it before and it was unnecessary for the passage. They are saved but will NOT SEE IT. Instead of doing something with their faith, they dug it in a hole and hide it in fear that they would lose it otherwise. Their life was worthless at that point. The wrath REMAINS because they will still get the ETERNAL wrath. The entire discussion had NOTHING to do with physical earthly life, but ETERNITY. Claiming that this verse is referring to physical hardship from God is nonsense. It's saying they will not see life and receive eternal wrath instead because of their disobedience. Again none of those verses determine timing. They simply go to my benefit not yours. Grow up and actually respond to the verses handed to you or don't respond at all. I'm not gonna waste my time with someone who won't simply address them. You clearly care more about appearing right than being honest. Paul places the rapture sometime after the antichrist is revealed. Pre trib is wrong.

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 Dude.,..you're all over the map. Had you been able to corral your comments into a post or two, it would be worth continuing trying to dialogue with you, but as it is, you can't seem to control things. Even your boy here (FAI) will tell you that *John 17* isn't an eschatological passage. Learn to apply CONTEXT my friend. You embarrass y/self when you try to bring things up that are disconnected with the conversation @ hand.

[@normmcinnis4102]

Don't need Eusebius or anyone else for proof. What I continually hear is "The rapture, or even the idea of a rapture was unknown before the 1800's. True. What comes to my mind is Daniel 12:4 and verse 9. In my recollection,Eusebius was a Gnostic along with Origen.

[@MaxDaves]

It is difficult to redeem one’s times from a rapture bunker. How about we get out of the bunkers and love people into the kingdom in all truth. The fixation by many on the pretrib rapture has more to do with fear and confusion than prayer and due diligence in the written Word of God. Regardless of our views on the rapture we are called to redeem our times and be faithful to the great commission.

[@artifacthunter1472]

Doctrine is instruction and I guess you hate instruction! Only few will find the truth you’re extremely confused!

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

so spreading false prophecy is no small issue?

[@believejesusislord578]

16:59 yes and what happened to Lot and his family? Where they not taken out?

[@MeTuLHeD]

Selective editing of quotes is intentional and deceptive.

[@BoyWanderer1988]

6:19 God shall remove all that offends Him. Get "caught up" in that truth. The Two Olive Trees crosses are the dead rise first. Is it not written?Jones in Hebrew means: "Zion." ZION is in the mind, where dwellers thou? Spiritual discernment or early? On delay until there shall be delay no longer. Bught... The day will come when you learn you have inherented nothing but lies. Christlikes should exist, not Christians. Ezekiel 38:17&18 Revelation 1:9 Revelation 14:13 is martyrdom, for your only friend.

[@kevinquinn225]

The Lord knows whether these are innocent oversights, confirmation bias or just mistakes! The pre-trib doctrine is error and falsehood and who would be the author of that? The father of lies himself!!

[@believejesusislord578]

11:23 a time and a season are interchangeable based in context - a season is a period of time and a period of time can be a season

[@hank8613]

Funny how pretrib rapture teachers never mention 2 thessalonians 2 1-4. The antichrist must be revealed first and that won't happen until the mid point of tribulation tribulation

[@Kman.]

If you were to look around, you'd know that the passages are dealt with.

[@boldbeliever52]

That the falling away comes FIRST, and the man of sin is revealed. Nothing to see here. Joel is unknowingly deceiving people

[@handles617]

@boldbeliever52 Yes, and that statement is made pertaining to the statement "that day will not come unless" Which means those 2 need to happen first. Grammatically, this is correct, and what Hank just said.

[@believejesusislord578]

Yes that is known as the 25:17 second coming - which is prior to the tribulation and the wrath of God -

[@believejesusislord578]

19:34 judgment and the wicked will not be tried till the rapture occurs first

[@believejesusislord578]

24:36 after Jesus returns to the earth - as stated in Zach 14:1-5

[@likethemorning]

No refuting the Blood of Jesus Christ which was shed for the remission of sin. Trust only His Blood.

[@believejesusislord578]

15:26 there is only one coming but there is a snatching away - it is not invisible - the gathering of the saints and the coming is the church coming with Christ

[@Docjam23]

Looks like Eusebius is pre-wrath. which I'd agree with. the wrath of God comes after Jesus returns. Problem is people think that the trumpets and bowls are tribulation, but they are the wrath of God, they think Revelation 19 is the second coming.. but.. it's not. 6-7th seal is where I see it. In between the 6th and 7th there's the great multitude.. then at the 7th.. heaven goes silent. The same heaven that cheers when Babylon is judged and destroyed, goes silent. Some people think it's because of the severity of the judgements... but Babylon was judged severely and they cheered. I believe it's because Jesus leaves heaven. Revelation 7 has them praise God on the throne and the lamb. Revelation 11 has them praise God on the throne..... but not the lamb. The kingdom is given over to Christ at that time, but he's already been on earth at that time. Revelation 19 they praise God on the throne... but not the Lamb.. they talk about the Lamb, but when you see the Lamb, is after the heavens open. John is witnessing things from heaven, not earth. He's not seeing the heavens open then looking up and there's Jesus riding down on Pegasus as popular as that image is it's wrong. He's in heaven, the heavens open up, and he sees Jesus on a horse. ... Jesus is already on earth, already covered in blood, just like Isaiah 63 when He is coming FROM EDOM, not heaven. There is tribulation and persecution, then Jesus returns, then the wrath of God, and then the bride returns to earth for the finale, after Jesus has tread the winepress of His wrath ALONE (Isaiah 63 is specific about this)

[@Docjam23]

Oh, and btw, first trumpet: fire and brimstone sent from heaven.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

​@@Docjam23 who the HELL has been teaching you? I want to warn them about a false teacher

[@dlove9034]

I would be surprised if he responds to your challenge

[@Kman.]

If he were to do so, or NOT...that proves __________________? You MAY want to read his bio & you'll see that he's WELL equipped to hold his own, just sayin'.

[@dlove9034]

@@Kman. I would argue that most of the pretrib scholars he's been calling out are well equipped and could hold their own. I'm not surprised either one of them are not responding.

[@Kman.]

@@dlove9034 I didn't even listen...I know where the guy, AND this channel stands. The arguments are all the same...nothing new, but _MANY_ folks don't just hang out on waiting for "invites" or "challenges" from others. Their videos/comments speak for t/selves.

[@believejesusislord578]

21:44 preludes - and in those preludes will be the rapture - how hard is that to see

[@konstantinerzyaykin8155]

Please notice from the Scripture with whom the new covenant of Israel is made: The Jews who believed in Messiah Yahushua and gentiles who believed in Him - these are the new covenant people of Israel! Rev 12:17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodfn on the sand of the sea. Col 1:13-14 13He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. There is one path for Jew or gentile to the Kingdom of the Son! If anyone rejects Him - he has no hope of Salvation, no hope of eternal life. There is no such thing as replacement theology - you either drafted in unto the kingdom of the Son or you remain outside of the promises given to Abraham. "Through your seed all nations of the earth will be by blessed," and that seed is Messiah Yahushua that God had carried through old testament through Israel whom he had chosen.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Are, not become, the seed of Abraham the true hebrews / Israel.) Paul is preaching to the divorced Nations of Israel of Jeremiah 3:8 who shall be remarried in Jeremiah 31:31. There is not a Jewish and Christian bride since the Lord is not married to two brides.

[@AmericanMinutemen]

If The Bible rather clearly describes the Earth as flat or some variation of flat, why do you use the word "globe"? Do you doubt The Bible?

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Isaiah 40:22 “It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers;

[@believejesusislord578]

12:09 pre trib is prevalent through the entire Bible - looking for individual external teachers is missing the forest for the trees.

[@artifacthunter1472]

Yet there is still not one verse to be found!

[@CC-mb8fi]

Context is ALWAYS KING When you have to take anything out of the passage context to change a word to "prove" your view, then its questionable at least and heresy at worst. Wor

[@jamescole3152]

It is a waste of time refuting and debating the pre tribulation rapture teachers. It is also a waste of time debating the teachers who believe the rapture is at the 7th trumpet of Revelation. Both are error. The rapture happens after the tribulation which is the first 5 seals for the church. And the rapture happens before the wrath of God. Rev 6 shows us exactly where the wrath of God is first mentioned. And then Rev 7 shows the church around the throne of God. So the rapture had to have already happened. So it is really very simple. Just go and read it. Rev 6 and Rev 7, and compare to Mat 24. So simple a child can understand.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

So how do you explain the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) being before the first trumpet (Revelation 8:7)?

[@shiner_man]

@@Berean_with_a_BTh If you have really read the original post, you would see that he gave you the answer. We will be resurrected (raptured) right before God's wrath starts with the trumpet judgments. The 'Trump of God' is the trumpet of DELIVERANCE and the first trumpet of Revelation is but one of seven trumpets that introduces judgment against the world. These trumpets do not introduce one example of deliverance. They are clearly the judgment of God against those who dwell on the earth. The sequence demands that the church be removed before the first trumpet because the wrath of God is involved. Now, I know you're thinking, I don't see the 'Trump of God' anywhere between the 6th and 7th seals. It’s like asking, “Where are the 144,000 in the Olivet Discourse?” Not every element is present in every eschatology passage. The trumpet is present in Matthew 24:31, but nowhere in Mark 13, but it is in I Cor. 15:52 and I Thess. 4:16. At the cosmic signs in Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 6:12-17 the nations are in terror in both passages. They see Him coming in Matthew 24:30, and in Revelation 6:16 they ask to be hidden from the face of Him who sits on the throne. Both passages express some reality that He is now visible. As far as a trumpet, it’s not at the sixth seal, but it’s not in Mark 13 either. Would we say Mark omitted it because it doesn’t happen in his version? Or would we say that each chronology gives different details and we can overlap them based on a majority of similarities in the text? Like Mr. Cole said, it's really quite simple, IF you don't bring any preconceived notions to the plain reading of the text.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

@@shiner_man That's just plain nonsense. You both need to pay closer attention to what Scripture actually says about tribulation and wrath and who suffers what and at whose hands. The NT passages that actually say who *God* pours His wrath out on are: Matthew 3:7; Luke 3:7; John 3:36; Romans 2:18; 2:5, 8; 3:5; 5:9; 9:22; 12;29; 13:4-5; Ephesians 2:3; 5:6; Colossians 3:5-6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 2:16; 5:9; Revelation 11:18; 14:9-10, 19; 16:1-21; 19:11-21. God's discipline & chastisement (cf. Hebrews 13:5-11) is not to be equated with His wrath. And neither tribulation (Matthew 23:18-33; 24:3-30; John 16:33) nor Satan's warring against the saints (Revelation 12:9-13:17) is to be confused with God's wrath. God is perfectly capable of pouring out His wrath on only those opposed to Him just as He did for Israel in Egypt when afflicting the Egyptians with the ten plagues. There is no 'rapture' until Revelation 20:4-5.

[@shiner_man]

@@Berean_with_a_BTh So, since we need to pay closer attention to what scripture says about tribulation, wrath, who suffers what and at whose hands, in your own words and NO scripture please, give me the simple biblical definitions of: 1. the great tribulation 2. God's wrath, then explain in your own words who suffers what and at whose hands 3. Satan's wrath, then explain in your own words who suffers what and at whose hands Forget about all of the other stuff, let's just set some definitions for the discussion.

[@Berean_with_a_BTh]

@@shiner_man Read it for yourself. I'm not about to waste my time trying to educate someone who shows no inclination to learn. A conventional reading of Revelation is that the: • seals are warnings by God; • trumpets are chastisements by God; and • bowls are the outpouring of God's Wrath. People are first warned, then chastised for ignoring those and, finally, subjected to God's Wrath for their stubborn rebellion.

[@Over-for-now]

When Jesus was on earth HE came to HIS OWN the Jews. It was NOT time to go to the gentiles. Paul was God's chosen vessel to the gentiles. Romans 16:25

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Are, not become, the seed of Abraham the true hebrews / Israel.) Paul is preaching to the divorced Nations of Israel of Jeremiah 3:8 who shall be remarried in Jeremiah 31:31. There is not a Jewish and Christian bride since the Lord is not married to two brides. 1 John 2:22 - Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (ALL Jews deny Jesus and that makes them antichrist, if they believed in Jesus then they would be CHRISTIANS. IF you do not believe me call any Synagogue and ask them if Jesus is the Messiah.) ***So you think the antichrists are the chosen people?*** 1 John 2:23 - Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. If Jews do not accept Jesus as messiah, then who is their messiah? SATAN? 1 Corinthians 16:22 - If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (CURSED) Maranatha. DO JEWS LOVE JESUS OR ARE THEY CURSED?

[@Over-for-now]

@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh Sir, Paul clearly said he was chosen and sent by God to be the apostle to the gentiles. Romans 16:25 and many more scriptures declare that wonderful fact. God does not give up on HIS promises and everlasting covenant with Israel. He has a chosen remnant in the future. The OT talks about HIS promises and plans for HIS chosen remnant

[@Over-for-now]

@@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh God has a chosen remnant of Israel THAT HE will keep HIS promises and everlasting covenant with. God deals with individuals as far as believers in Jesus. There ARE many Christians amongst individual Jews today

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

@@Over-for-now God promised Abraham he would be the Father of MANY NATIONS. One little antichrist jewish nation makes God a LIAR. Genesis 17:5 - Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of MANY many nations have I made thee. If the "JEW'S" are all of Abraham, where are all these MANY "jewish nations"...? There is only one and it was created by the antichrist United Nations and one is not many. Either God lied (impossible) or the Jews are not all of Israel. Where are the MANY JEWISH NATIONS of Abraham? Judah and Israel were not the same people. God divorced Israel and not Judah. One tribe is not many Jeremiah 3:8 - And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of DIVORCE; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. The Lord DIVORCED ISRAEL Israel and judah had wars and different kings as well as different capitols. Jerusalem capitol of Judah. Samaria capitol of Israel. 2 Kings 8:16 ...Joram the son of Ahab KING of ISRAEL, Jehoshaphat being then KING of JUDAH, ... 1 Kings 21:1 ....had a vineyard, which was in Jezreel, hard by the PALACE of Ahab KING of SAMARIA. Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: this verse says a new covenant with both Israel AND Judah. So how can they be the same? Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Romans 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Galatians 3:29. - And if ye be Christ's, then ARE ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

I have a hard time dealing with fal se prophets. Like Amigo People notice these never post scripture, only their opinions. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found? In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the END end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation.

[@believejesusislord578]

27:08 again adding to something that is not outlined in the statement - why?

[@Pre-Tribulation]

Read Matthew 24:37-51. The context is Days of Noah which is ESCAPE then Judgment. The ones TAKEN are received as a father receiving his newborn child. They were watching! They are called good and faithful servants... Matthew 24:37-47 ^^^ Now... for ones who AREN'T watching, i.e. Post Tribulation Rapture believers... they beat their servants... they say in their heart, "The Lord delayeth his coming", and they SMITE their fellowservants. They drink with the drunkards. The Lord will come at an hour they are not aware. And they will be counted with the hypocrites and their will be weeping AND gnashing of teeth, Matthew 24:48-51.

[@handles617]

Paul explicitly places rapture after apostasy and antichrist. Pre trib says it happens beforehand.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

@@handles617 liar!! I HAAAAATE liars! Go away! 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 call YOU A LIAR!!! GO AWAY LIAR ^^^ 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

[@handles617]

​@Pre-Trib Warrior irrelevant what it says in verse 7 and 8 since verses 1-4 are quite EXPLICIT on the exact timing. Therefore, in trying to bring 7-8 into play just means you are trying to claim there's a contradiction. Since the bible cannot contradict, and the verses 7-8 require interpretation as they are not a direct statement, this automatically makes you wrong.

[@kenklein9228]

​@@handles617Exactly. Nothing taught by Paul gives us a pre Trib rapture. However, Free Gracers and Dispensationlalists twist his words to support their balderdash theologies.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Matthew 24:37 - But as the days of Noe (Noah) were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:38 - For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, Mat 24:39 - And knew not until the flood came, and took (WHO?) them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (the WICKED WERE TAKEN) Mat 24:40 - Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:41 - Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Mat 24:42 - Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. The WICKED were TAKEN and Noah was LEFT BEHIND at the end of the flood. Luke 17:26 - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. The WICKED were TAKEN and Noah was LEFT BEHIND 1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The WICKED were TAKEN FIRST and Noah was LEFT BEHIND Luke 17:27 - They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:28 - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Lot was left behind - the wicked were taken Luke 17:29 - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:30 - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 2 Peter 2:12 - But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken TAKEN and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; So do pre tribber preachers lie and make the Bible say the opposite of what it means? Do we want to be taken or left behind?

[@believejesusislord578]

30:22 he gave Noah and lot as examples which are clear of a pretribulation rapture

[@Mathetes1]

The only people who were taken away in Noah's case were the ones NOT in the ark. Noah wasn't taken to heaven, He had to build an ark to save himself. Lot and his family likewise had to walk/run from Sodom - they weren't spirited away.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

​@@Mathetes1 read Matthew 24:37-51. The ones TAKEN were from the FAITHFUL servants! The word TAKEN is like a father receiving his newborn child after delivery, Matthew 24:37-47. The ones NOT TAKEN are unfaithful servants, who weren't watching, or saved, and they beat their servants and said in their heart, "The Lord delayeth his coming". They are cut asunder and they are counted with the hypocrites and their will be weeping AND gnashing of teeth, Matthew 24:48-51

[@boldbeliever52]

Enoch is the one who CLEARLY represents the church. He was TAKEN UP before the flood. Noah and family represent the protected 144,000 who will indeed endure the tribulation period.

[@boldbeliever52]

The wise will be made to look foolish and the foolish will look wise. Joel completely ignores the bride of Christ awaiting her groom. Pre tribulation rapture supports the brides rescue.

[@jamesduck926]

Ecclesiastical is not an inspired book. It’s a comic book.

[@Pre-Tribulation]

This is a common problem with post tribber cultists. You all want to flush books of the Bible down the toilet

[@garytmayer]

Certainly the Olivet discourse is speaking of the church, and Jesus is speaking to the disciples as the foundation of the church. As far as the timing of the rapture, I have held all four major views on the order of the rapture. Here are my comments on this subject. People go astray when they misread Matthew 24. Jesus begins His answer to the disciples beginning at the end of the age, not before 70 AD. We know this because He calls his signs labor pains. Labor pains begin and increase continuously to the delivery. The "you" on Matthew 24 is the church, believers in Jesus Christ. Now here is what is misunderstood by all or nearly all: When Jesus says, "But immediately after the tribulation of those days" (v. 29; NASB), He is referring to the "tribulation" of verse 9 which He has just been describing. HE IS NOT REFERRING TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION that comes after the abomination of desolation. You say, why do you conclude this? Because when the Matthew uses the word "for," to begin a thought, He means for this to be taken as an explanation of something, BUT THESE VERSES ARE NOT TO BE INCLUDED IN HIS RUNNING DESCRIPTION OF HIS NARRATIVE. Therefore, verses 21-22 and 24-27 are not part of the narrative line. When this is realized, it becomes clear that verse 23, which says, "Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ, or 'There He is,' do not believe him," it refers to the time before the abomination of desolation, before the escape from Judea has occurred. The day of the Lord and the rapture therefore occur at mid-week, just as Jesus indicated that it would in Luke 17:22-37 and just as Revelation 3:10, and Revelation 7:9-17 indicates, and also probably as Revelation 12:1-6 indicates. Please see my blog showing articles on other topics: www.garytmayer.blogspot.com.

[@Kman.]

_"Certainly the Olivet discourse is speaking of the church, and Jesus is speaking to the disciples as the foundation of the church._ Does not the entire dialogue detail the events leading up to the coming KINGDOM, & not the coming church...agree? That being true, actually Christ speaks to His disciples & sees them in light of their role in the coming KINGDOM... "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." *Matt **19:26* So yes, I agree when you say, _"People go astray when they misread Matthew 24."_

[@handles617]

That's doubtful since revelation 12 says the dragon is enraged at the woman fleeing and makes war with the rest of her offspring, those who hold to God's commandments and testimony of Jesus. For your claim to work, you would have to claim that israel is largely saved or a huge amount saved at this point and that despite being saved, that only gentile believers will be raptured and not jewish believers.

[@believejesusislord578]

31:08 I am going to lean on Lee - and more over - the Truth of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. thanks for the input but I think u are highly mistaken on your take.

[@handles617]

Stop filling the comment section and get a life

[@themaranathaplumbline2023]

AT HIS COMING, 2ND THESSALONIANS 1:7 HE WILL DESTROY THE WICKED. SAME THING EUSEBIUS SAID

[@believejesusislord578]

29:34 incorrect -he is stating that the church will remain even after this and through this - he is not stating that they will go through. Why add something that is not being stated?

[@believejesusislord578]

32:19 there was 0 debunking at all. And I wanted to leave a record that goes step by step that refutes everything alleged in this video.

[@handles617]

He absolutely debunked it. Not only did he prove that Lee changed eusebius' quotes for his own purposes, but the very statements by eusebius clearly place the coming of the Lord and noahs ark as simultaneous.😊

[@believejesusislord578]

17:35 and who is the son of man being revealed to and who is the wrath falling on? It’s clear it is a revealing of Christ to the world and the wicked in it - hence the pouring out of his wrath

[@believejesusislord578]

28:26 the church will remain and endure yet there is a snatching away as clearly stated prior - during the time of the wrath of god there will be saints that will have to endure as well and that would be the new church - not a replacement theology

[@handles617]

Wrong. Paul places the rapture and the 2nd coming together ina simultaneous event. AND he says It happens after the antichrist is revealed. Stop lying. And stop spamming. Seriously grow up

[@EBRoyJr]

Joel, you are so soft that you are not confronting the fact that these people are obviously lying and deceiving people.

[@imallrightwhosleft4832]

True. There is perhaps some time to be diplomatically correct, but time is running out.

[@comingstorm6403]

Stop worrying about the rapture. If you don't believe in it, you won't be going.

[@nomadicepoch2615]

Where in the Bible does it say such a thing? My faith and eyes are on Jesus Christ

[@JoelRichardson]

[@angierobinson1651]

Hello. I'm not worried about the rapture. You know, if we are in fact a Christian, it is our duty to correct doctrines that have the power to cause a brother or sister to stumble and fall. Stay with me a second.... I believe that people who are waiting for the pretribulation rapture to be in for a soul crushing realization that will cause a massive departure from the faith, I don't want to lose my Christian family... so I am worried about that. With me having that belief and with my love for everyone, it's my passion and my duty to the Lord to correct the pretribulation rapture error OUT OF LOVE. If we believe someone is in danger, we warn them. So all of this isn't for us who don't believe in the pretrib rapture, it's for those who do believe in it, because we hate the idea of our dear brothers and sisters losing their soul behind something that could have been addressed now. When the tribulation gets in to full swing and the reality hits those who thought they were going to escape, disillusionment will set in and a massive falling away as people get bitter and grow cold.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

Gospel of Judas 66:6 - Stop worrying about the rapture. If you don't believe in it, you won't be going.

[@GaryVelardo-rb6nw]

Please stop apologizing for them. If they're so honest about what they believe, they wouldn't get nasty in the manner that they do, with people that challenge what they say. As if you're taking food out of their mouth. Not the Gospel or Scripture.

[@believejesusislord578]

26:11 how much are you not adding to the statement of Eusebius- the opposite of what u alleged Lee did? Hmm - just realized. Lots of commentary added to the statement

[@believejesusislord578]

13:27 as u can see the context of what is said is not changed whatsoever

[@handles617]

Except eusebius actually places noahs ark and the gathering into it with the timing of the coming of the Lord. Not some "secret event" 7 years beforehand.

[@jasondacalio7760]

Jesus' church is made up of Hebrew and Gentile, male and female, slave of free. The church is the One new Man made in the image of Messiah by the work of the Holy Spirit. The Hebrews-Jews have lost their position as Yah's Children; they have to accept Jesus as Savior/Redeemer and Elohim. If they believe in the Talmund and reject Christ they are infidels, Elohim is righteous and Holy, He does not favor one ethnicity over another outside of the gospel of Jesus; for Jesus said I am the Way, Truth and the LIfe no man comes to Father God except thru Me.

[@Amigocontequila]

Joel is lying. The pre trib rapture was first taught by Paul. It was also reinforced by some of the early church fathers. Darby MAY have resurrected it as true church doctrine, but never-the-less Paul was the first, and ONLY, person the doctrine was given to. It is men who have perverted the doctrine ever since, and to this day. Lastly the rapture, and the 2ed coming are NOT the same event. No matter what some "teachers "say

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

always notice amigo never gives us anything but opinion

[@Amigocontequila]

@@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh You have a hard time dealing with facts huh ?

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

@@Amigocontequila I have a hard time dealing with deceivers and false prophets. People notice these LIARS never post scripture, only their lying opinions. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found? In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the END end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation.

[@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh]

@@Amigocontequila I have a hard time dealing with fal se prophets. People notice these never post scripture, only their opinions. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:52 - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. We are changed at the LAST TRUMP and where is this found? In REVELATION, the LAST BOOK of the Bible there are 7 trumps and the 7th trump is the LAST ONE and is at the END end of the tribulation. there is not a 7th last trump prior to the tribulation.

[@Amigocontequila]

@@ChaplainBobWalkerBTh Sorry but the last trump you are referring to is NOT the same trump in 1 Thes 4. That verse IS the rapture verse, and it says NOTHING about being the last trump. Also 1 Cor 15 is NOT the rapture simply because NO ONE is CAUGHT UP ! ! The verse applies to righteous Jews who are alive when Christ returns. IF you had understood that the KINGDOM that Jesus constantly preached on was a JEWISH kingdom that had been promised to them for over 1000 years. THEN you would understand what is going on in 1 Cor 15. I know it SEEMS to read as a rapture verse, but look closer at the wording. Learn 2 Tim 2:15

[@believejesusislord578]

9:06 the statement is accurate because it is taken out of the larger statement. The refute is incorrect. That would be like saying the constitution doesn’t say free speech because of the verbiage - it’s called interpretation and comprehension of the etymological terms

[@handles617]

No the statement is wrong because he actually edited eusebius' quote to better fit his narrative. If you look up what he said, he did not actually say this.

[@believejesusislord578]

14:32 already claiming pre tribbers use Noah when in fact it is Jesus and Luke and the Bible it self that refers to Noah numerous times

[@toocat2000000]

Eusebius wasn't wrong about the True Israel . You are wrong. Change my mind from the New Testament . Not how you just made a statement that "He was wrong" without a single scripture to back it up, exactly how you said the Pretribulationist make a statement and don't use scripture .Kind of ironic .

[@napoleon474]

It appears here that even Eusebius misunderstood the context of these first century tribulation passages. It's odd that Eusebius would make this mistake since in his other other writings he clearly understood that Jesus ties the great tribulation to the destruction of the temple. Post Trib scholars will read a break midway through the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24 to support the post trib interpretation but this is reading into the text a view that runs counter to Daniels vision, which Jesus quoted directly from. Eusebius quotes numerous early Christians who clearly understood Daniels prophecy to have been fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. John's Revelation mirrors Daniel's vision almost verbatim.

[@JohnJohnson-rc6ci]

These people are totally decieved. YHVH has sent them a spirit of deception. Their understanding of Torah is lacking on all levels. They have an agenda and will lead many astray with their false doctrines. May YHVH rebuke the lot of them. Shalom.

[@believejesusislord578]

19:54 it is not a post tribulation pre wrath - what is that?!?! Come on - now we are just making things up to come up with something new - that ain’t Berean

[@handles617]

Not a single verse in the bible states a pre trib rapture. It is entirely inferred. Which means it requires an opinionated interpretation. This is why it wasn't even a thing until Darby's Era. Pre wrath is definitely more accurate and well supported by direct statements in the bible.

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 The entire tribulation is classified & identified as "WRATH", so sure...the pre-tribulation rapture is _REALLY_ the only TRUE, pre-WRATH position~~~:) *MARANATHA!*

[@handles617]

@Kman simply not true. Not a single verse indicates that as such. In fact, it is in the seals that it indicates when the wrath actually begins and when Gods judgment begins. They actually state that the wrath begins when the seals are done. Not to mention Paul actually directly states that the rapture cannot happen until AFTER the antichrist is revealed. THIS automatically makes it impossible for the rapture to be BEFORE the tribulation. This is what happens when you rely on guesswork ro let you interpret, instead of literally just reading what It actually says

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 You just offered up your opinion, and for that I thank you, but unfortunately you brought nothing to VALIDATE your truth claims. *=====>* "For the great day of his WRATH *IS COME...* *Rev 6:17* "IS COME" in the Greek is the Greek grammarian’s term for a simple PAST tense, that an action HAS happened. It's the *aorist indicative active tense.* It's referring to a PREVIOUS arrival of wrath, NOT s/thing that is imminent or is yet to be. It presents an action or the event as something real *&* certain...an objective fact. There's an _ONGOING_ aspect in the usage. It's a situation that actually IS, as opposed to a situation that might be, one that's wished for, commanded to be, or WILL be. U/stand, these are *LOST* people making the declaration based on what they've BEEN witnessing, is indeed, the "WRATH" of God, & if *LOST* people can come to this conclusion, certainly *SAVED* folks should be able to as well. All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 *PS:* This is what happens when you rely on what you've heard from others & can only parrot w/o doing your own due diligence~:)

[@believejesusislord578]

33:20 incorrect it is the Truth of the Word of God. Let’s be careful.

[@handles617]

No it's called lying to prove a doctrine. Pre trib is completely false

[@dstv1016]

Listened half way, its obvious when hes talking about the harpazo, snatching away. You trying so hard to make it sound like Christ's second coming. Eusebius agrees with new testament writers that we are not appointed unto God's wrath being poured out. The guy who shortened the text is not taking out of context what Eusebius is saying. Of course if you want to go through great tribulation and the wrath and hope to make it to see Jesus coming at the end, you will find all the fault you can and repeat yourself a hundred times. So you can have a death wish but i will listen to common sense of the NT writers. He pours His wrath out on the ungodly and unfaithful then Jesus comes at the end, you seriously want to go through the wrath and tribulation then you must be ungodly and unfaithful as they say in scripture.

[@handles617]

Eusebius clearly places the son of man coming with the timing of the rapture. "But on the day that lot left Sodom, he rained fire from heaven and destroyed everyone. It will be the SAME on the DAY that the SON OF MAN is REVEALED. He thereby teaches that unspeakably terrible WRATH will come upon all the wicked" Eusebius clearly believed that the timing of the wrath coincided with the coming of the son of man. This is precisely what pre wrath rapture teaches. The wrath begins when Jesus makes his return. The day of the Lord Is not a singular day, but a time period at the end of the tribulation. Matthew 24: 29-31 and the 6th seal and interlude are paralleling each other. The end of the 6th seal also parallels malachi in chapter 3: 2-3, when malachi speaks of the day of the Lord. Paul places the rapture after the apostasy and revealing of the antichrist. Simply put, the early church did not believe in a pre trib notion. It didn't exist. It's a lie.

[@Kman.]

@@handles617 Is the argument all about what Eusebius said/didn't say? *SMH* If you could identify the CHURCH in *Matt 24,* they I would consider capitulating, but seeing as how we're not found in the passage, I've got to hold to what I u/stand the bible to teach, and THAT'S the rapture that precedes the 7 year tribulation. All the best to you in your search for truth, *MARANATHA!*

[@handles617]

​@Kman again you have to to explain anything you've said. It's all predicated on guesswork. The only verses that time a gathering with other events state its after the tribulation. Very simple. Israel is not saved until the very end when Jesus makes his return at his coming. Israel is NOT saved by the time the tribulation starts or else they wouldn't even be there to begin with. Jews can't FALL AWAY if they were never christian to begin with. It is quite apparent that the apostasy is occurring in the first half. Yet israel isn't even saved at this point. The apostasy of Paul is the apostasy of Jesus. All verses point towards rapture after the tribulation. Again, pre trib is a complete and utter LIE that will deceive the masses and cause them to fall away.

[@Keepitoriginalministry]

@@Kman. Matthew 24 read it again. You means us them means Jews same thing in mark 13, Luke 21 Romans 11

[@Kman.]

@@Keepitoriginalministry _"You means us them means Jews same thing"_ LOL...and *THAT* is making the case? That's nothing but a claim, *SMH.*

[@WeAreMoreThanConquerors]

Wow Paul the Apostle taught it You are lacking major information.

[@handles617]

No. Paul taught that we are not gathered to the lord until the apostasy and antichrist. Pre trib rapture states we don't see the antichrist. Pre trib rapture also states that there is no prophecy required for it to occur. Paul clearly contradicts this. Pre trib is wrong.

[@WeAreMoreThanConquerors]

2 Thes. 3:3 Present tense.

[@handles617]

@John Suermann 2 thess 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen and protect you from the evil one. That's not even a rapture verse It's also irrelevant since Paul explicitly says we see the antichrist which contradicts pre trib rapture doctrine. Again, since Paul here says one of the only direct statements about the rapture in relation to other events, any indirect verse has to make sense with the direct ones. Since Paul directly places the rapture afterwards, any other verse must follow in line. Again, not a single verse places the rapture before the tribulation. None of the verses used for pre trib are direct, they are all inferred. The evidence for a pre wrath rapture is far greater and this is why the early church quotes all place it as such a timing.

[@WeAreMoreThanConquerors]

It was 2 Thes. 3:5 Waiting for Christ. It is continuous Tense. Also, James says The Lord draws near.

[@handles617]

@John Suermann I'm not even sure what your point is, imminency? Because that's not taught in the bible. "Drawing near" yes you're correct, nobody knew the year he was coming back, it was a surprise for them too. That still doesn't change the fact that Paul explicitly places the apostasy and antichrist before the gathering to the lord. When you even begin to address the points brought to you, rather than simply showing me what verses you pretend to pay attention to, I'll respond again.

[@MuchFruit]

Right dividers are looking for the Blessed Hope, the rest are looking for Matthew 24. Rightly dividing and showing the differences in Luke, Mark, and Matthew's discourses and the 3 harvests. Paying attention to detail is a must! Luke 21:25 [Pre trib escape] And there shall be SIGNS in the SUN, and in the MOON, and in the STARS [stars are not falling in Lukes discourse like in Mark and Matthew]; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in A CLOUD [a single cloud] with power and great glory. [No angels like in Mark and Matthews discourse, the Son of man comes by Himself in Luke only] 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. [Pre trib escape] Mark 13 [Left behind, mid trib Rapture] 24 But in those days, AFTER "THAT" TRIBULATION, [Seals 1-6] the SUN shall be DARKENED, and the MOON shall not give her LIGHT, 25 And the STARS of heaven shall FALL, and the powers that are in HEAVEN [singular] shall be SHAKEN. [Not just SIGNS in the stars as in Luke but they FALL to earth] 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in THE CLOUDS [Not a single cloud like Luke] with GREAT POWER and glory. [7th Seal] 27 And then shall he SEND HIS ANGELS, [His angels this time, not just Him and notice no trumpets because this is during seals] and shall gather together his elect from the FOUR WINDS, from the UTTERMOST part of the EARTH to the UTTERMOST part of HEAVEN. [Gathers from both Earth and Heaven this time, not just earth like in Luke] [Left behind, mid trib great multitude rapture] Mat 24 [2nd Coming feet down on the Mount of Olives] 29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF "THOSE DAYS" [Trumpets 1-6] shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall FALL from heaven, and the powers of the HEAVENS [Plural this time] shall be shaken: 30 And THEN shall APPEAR THE SIGN of the Son of man IN HEAVEN: and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth MOURN, and THEY shall see the Son of man coming in THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN [Not regular clouds or a single cloud but the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN] with power and GREAT GLORY. 31 And he shall SEND HIS ANGELS with a GREAT SOUND of a TRUMPET, [The last trump/7th trumpet because this is during the trumpets] and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from ONE END OF "HEAVEN" TO THE OTHER. [Not gathering from EARTH at all this time just HEAVEN and this is the 2nd Coming, feet down mount of Olives] 3 different events. Have to rightly divide these gospels. Also Luke 9:27-34 KJV - [Pre trib] 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till 👉 THEY SEE 👈 the kingdom of God (pre trib escape) Mark 9:1-8 KJV - [Mid trib] 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they HAVE SEEN the kingdom of God 👉 COME WITH POWER 👈 (mid trib great multitude rapture) Matthew 16 28 [Post trib] 28Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the👉 SON OF MAN COMING IN HIS KINGDOM 👈 (feet down 2nd coming) Once again proof of 3 different events. Luke 21 [Pre] Mark 13 [Mid] Matthew 24 [Post] And is exactly what this scripture is about:👇 2 Corinthians 12 2I knew a man in Christ above FOURTEEN YEARS ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP to the THIRD HEAVEN [Luke 21]. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4How that he was CAUGHT UP into PARADISE, [Mark 13] and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:14 (Continuation of context of verse 2) 14¶Behold, the THIRD TIME "I am ready" to COME TO YOU [Feet down on the mount of Olives/Matthew 24]; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. And that's exactly what this parable is about:👇 Luke 12:36And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37Blessed are THOSE SERVANTS, whom the lord when he cometh shall find WATCHING [Luke 21 pre trib]: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38And if he shall come in the SECOND WATCH, [Mark 13 Mid trib] or come in the THIRD WATCH, [Matthew 24 Post trib] and find them so, blessed are THOSE SERVANTS. 39And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have WATCHED, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40Be YE THEREFORE READY ALSO: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41¶Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto "US", or EVEN TO "ALL"? Peter asked Jesus here which group of people He was talking to. Biblical proof of 3 different events. Pre, Mid and Post are all true. That's why all the debates and confusion. That's why each had their own good unrefutable points. They are all true! Be looking for Luke 21 and not Mark 13 or Matthew 24. Jesus said "TO WATCH and pray you are accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass." Coincidently that passage is in LUKE ONLY..

[@handles617]

Go away date setter. You're the ma version of "seek heavenly things"

[@MuchFruit]

@@handles617 Show me where I'm wrong. Do the Scriptures not say all of this? Does Luke 21 not say watch and pray you are accounted worthy to escape all these things? If you ain't watching, you ain't going! Simple as that. Sorry about your luck. I guess it wasn't meant to be.

[@MuchFruit]

Let me show you rapture deniers what the Holy Ghost showed me. Jesus descends in a cloud and church age believers who are watching and diligently seeking the Lord will meet him in a cloud and escape the tribulation (Luke 21). Luke 21-25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. He calls His bride UP to meet Him in a cloud. This is Jesus coming to take His bride. Then the bride of Christ will go to the 3rd heaven with Christ (The throne room). This is were He opens the 1st seal. 2 Corinthians 12:2 KJV - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one CAUGHT UP to the third heaven. Revelation 6 1-2 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. 2And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a CROWN WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Christ will return for 40 days with some harvest workers from the bride who escaped. He will warn the left behind inhabitants to repent and to follow the everlasting gospel and join the harvest workers. The White Horse Rider is NOT the antichrist like most people think. They will be deceived. The powers that be have been gaslighting people with propaganda in their movies, music, and TV programming with white horse antichrist symbolism.. It is Jesus coming back for 40 days after catching up His Bride to warn the left behind just as Jonah was sent to warn the Ninevites for 40 days as prophesied in Luke. Which is a type and shadow of things to come. Luke 11 29-32 (This is prophecy) 29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: 👉THEY👈 seek a sign; and there shall NO SIGN be given 👉IT,👈 but the sign of Jonas the prophet. (40 day warning) 30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, (40 day warning) so shall also the Son of man be to 👉THIS GENERATION.👈 31 The QUEEN OF THE SOUTH shall rise up in the judgment with👉THE MEN OF THIS GENERATION,👈 and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. Song of songs 3 11 and Solomon is a type and shadow of Jesus and what's to come. Songs 3 11 KJV - Go forth, O ye daughters of Zion, and behold king Solomon with the CROWN wherewith HIS MOTHER CROWNED HIM in the DAY of his ESPOUSALS, and in the day of the gladness of his heart. Luke 11:32 KJV 32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with THIS GENERATION, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas 👈(40 day warning of Jonas) and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. People are going to be deceived into thinking Jesus the Son of Man is the antichrist. This is straight out of the enemies playbook. According to Muslim eschatology this is their antichrist, the Dajal (but it's actually our Jesus Christ). Muslim writings: al-Dajjāl, (Arabic: “The Deceiver”), in Islamic eschatology, a false messianic figure who will come forth before the end of time; after a reign of 👉40 days👈 he will be destroyed by Christ or the mahdī (“rightly guided one”) or "both", and the world will submit to God. The Muslim literature above is a lie and there to fool people into accepting their false Jesus aka the real antichrist, the false prophet, and to deny Jesus Christ. Many will reject the real Jesus because they think the antichrist is the 1st seal white horse rider. This is prophecy: Luke 17 25But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of 👉THIS 👈 generation. 26AND as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the "DAYS" (40 days of warning) of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, (Pre trib escape) and destroyed them all. (as in "40" days and 40 nights flood)👈 Another type and shadow of what's to come. Once the 40 days are over Christ will go back to the throne room to open the other 6 seals on an unrepenting and unbelieving world and many (great multitude)will wash their robes and make them white during this time. During all this the red horse rider is allowed to reign followed by the black and pale horse riders. This will be WW3 and the beginning of the New World Order. There will be famines, pestilences and war throughout the world. This will be caused by the 40 days of Jesus' warnings. Christians will be persecuted, put in prison, betrayed by family, and receive the death penalty for following the "Dajal" according to the muslims. But that's the great deception and it's actually the Son of Man.. Mark 13 9-13 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 👈(Harvest workers during seals) 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. The Fifth Seal Revelation 6 9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And WHITE ROBES were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. All of this persecution and martyrdom happens during seals 2 through 5. The Sixth seal Revealtion 12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [which is also Mark 13:24] 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Theb6th seal is also the when the great multitude rapture of the surviving faithful left behind happens. Which is also Mark chapter 9 and Mark chapter 13. Mar 9:2-9 KJV - 1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power. Mark 13 24-27 KJV But in those days, after THAT tribulation [Seals], the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Which is also, Revelation 7:9 KJV - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with WHITE ROBES, and palms in their hands. It's impossible to understand the end times until you know who the gospels are speaking to. People will be deceived because they're not rightly dividing Luke, Mark, and Matthew. Luke 21 is pre tribulation and is written for the bride of Christ and is the escape. Mark 13 is the mid trib great multitude rapture, written about the left behind unbelievers and lukewarm Church that weren't watching for His return and is during the 2nd through fifth seal judgements. Matthew 24 is post trib, written for the Jews/Judah, and is during the 7 trumpet judgments.

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Who cares what people who may never have even existed, had to say. Seriously. Who cares