IRS Killer vs FR30 speaker Part 2

[@OldTooly]

I really identified with Chris when I watched his presentations and his attention to detail and his obviously innate vision and understanding of the mechanics of audio reproduction. I was the same in my field of Tool Making and Engineering. I just have to mention that a man of such abilities is not only rare and invaluable, but someone to nurture and support to allow them to produce what often become masterpieces of their art, and second to none. Paul you are so blessed to have him and I wish you and he a brilliant future together and only hope that you guys can come up with something this old man can actually afford that still displays his genius. Thanks again and always.

[@gizmobowen]

He never looked very comfortable when he was on camera, but it was great when Chris did some of these videos. As a person interested in speaker design, I always really appreciated what he had to say. Maybe he can make a few more videos in the future. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to hear more about his design philosophy.

[@julianklietz6558]

4:46 how on earth did he make that sound, that's impressive sound reproduction right here. This is how you know paul is the real deal.

[@Bassotronics]

Shhh, that’s his secret mating call.

[@The_Story_Channel]

The FR30 may sound better but I am in the camp where I like the esthetics of the Arnie's speakers better. The FR30s look more like a tower on steroids where Arnie's speakers look more like a high end musical instrument that if you strung some strings on could be played, its all about the curves.

[@dlmp70]

The speaker cabinets were designed by Gary Koh when Gary was working with Arnie. Gary is the owner of Genesis.

[@edd2771]

Agree the FR 30s are hideous. Look like having a couple mainframe computers in your living room.

[@The_Story_Channel]

@@edd2771 I don't think they are hideous but they are not my style, I get the mainframe computer comparison.

[@Muckyfellrunner]

All this is way above my head and I’d doubt that I would never be able to hear the differences, but I do find the science and the sonic artwork fascinating. Thanks for the video

[@artyfhartie2269]

I would swap 10 pairs of FR30 for this one off Arnie Nudell work of art. These IRS look like a musical instrument and beautiful to my eyes. And having heard great reviews of previous Nudell's creations, I bet they sound great too. Audio is all subjective. Probably all made locally too with care and attention.

[@dlmp70]

The speaker cabinets were designed by Gary Koh when Gary was working with Arnie. Gary is the owner of Genesis.

[@BruceCross]

The wood is gorgeous.

[@williamclark2730]

Yesssss every time I see these video I just feel I missed out. I've been right there , Infinity Genesis technology and now with P S Audio, when I was in Germany I use to help people with their speakers and equipment, I still do people call and ask for help. I have them watch these videos and then say I know this guy Paul from Germany. But now a new Genius, I want to hear.

[@SuperMcgenius]

Hi Paul , my experience with servo woofers is most successful when working with PA systems which went a long way to protect them from failure.

[@BiGDeE3]

No such thing as "too long" lol. Thx for sharing , great insight prts 1&2

[@rtih]

Surprised there’s negatives on the look of the fr30s. I feel they are just great. That said I’d give my eye teeth to be able to buy Arnie’s bespokes. To hear what he really wanted as well as the aesthetic.

[@googoo-gjoob]

so, does that IRSK qualify as an 'open baffle' ?

[@richardgivher835]

I think those are beautiful, guitar looking speakers. Pleasant to the eye.

[@dlmp70]

Those speaker cabinets were designed by Gary Koh, who now owns Genesis.

[@richardgivher835]

@@dlmp70 I like 'em.

[@dlmp70]

@@richardgivher835 so do I. 👍

[@stimpy1226]

What was the retail price difference between BFR 30s and Arnies killers

[@PigVirusNBC]

If my memory serves me correctly, I believe that the Infinity IRS V’s were I think a high of 59 k or so in the early to mid 90’s. They were supposed to be the no holds barred for the time in 1985. And the build quality along with performance and aesthetics certainly said it all.

[@mrpositronia]

I'm not going to pretend I know more. Thanks Paul. Speaker production is a science and science is never happy to stand still.

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@Technical_Audio]

The FR30 and this “IRS killer” probably do some things better than the original IRS, but there is one major area of performance where these newer speakers fall short of the IRS. And that is that the IRS is a true floor-to-ceiling line source. True line sources have unique properties that take advantage of room acoustics and of floor and ceiling reflections. Having a 12” to 24” short ribbon as in these newer speakers is almost the worst case. A small tweeter acts as a point source, while a tall driver acts as a line source. The FR30 and IRS killer are stuck in the middle, neither a line source nor a point source, and that limits their performance in a room, and limits directivity.

[@gme10955]

No disrespect to Arnie, but how can those rather small IRS killer speakers even come close to replacing the IRS V's? Perhaps in some areas, but I can't imagine them coming close to the dynamic scale and impact of the V's.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

My goal is to some day go to PS Audio and hear the IRS and then the FR30.

[@dlmp70]

@@user-od9iz9cv1w sadly, the IRS have been permanently retired, according to one video from Paul. They ran out of space to house them. I’m talking about the big ones and not the IRS killers shown here.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

@@dlmp70 That is sad. At one time they were occupying a second listening room.

[@dlmp70]

@@user-od9iz9cv1w yes, it’s sad. Here’s the video where Paul talks about their fate: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWKbkneci9eKpKM

[@Channel-cm7yc]

From the back those loudspeakers remind me of a Shmoo. Remember that cartoon aka comic strip Paul??’s

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@jasombeeman1955]

I have a design for a box can I use your speakers in my design??

[@jasombeeman1955]

O and a crossover mine my crossover

[@AllboroLCD]

I suggest possibly re-visiting servo woofers in later generations of the FR's . Just as standard woofer tech has leveled up, so has servos as well! Perhaps integrate a servo into the new woofers design and give er a go?

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@walterstorm9221]

What do you get when you cross an engineer, a data scientist, a programmer, a musician, and an audiophile? CB :)

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@NoEgg4u]

@1:19 "We also wanted a rear tweeter, which was kind-a Arnies hallmark, and the FR30 has it" A rear firing tweeter is used for overly damped rooms. But it could be used in all rooms. Either way, it probably adds a pleasing sound, albeit that it is technically 100% distortion, because its contribution to the sound field is significantly smeared in time. The front direct tweeter is already reproducing all of the high-frequency information on the recording. Any increase above what is actually on the recording is by definition, distortion. In the end, it probably does not matter that it is technically distortion, because if it sounds great, and it brings enjoyment to your ears, then (to me) that is what counts. Paul, can the customer toggle the rear firing tweeter on and off?

[@KingOath]

Do you know what the point of the rear tweeter is? Genuinely asking? I see it in a few speakers. Like, there’s no rear firing mid so it’s not an attempt at 360 degree even coverage. Do they run it out of phase or something? I’ve played with all different drivers firing in all different directions and all that seems to happen is the imaging gets screwed up.

[@NoEgg4u]

​@@KingOath I am not an expert. What I learned is from Vandersteen's flagship Model Seven speakers (which are lauded as contenders for the best sounding speakers ever made, regardless of price). The Sevens have a rear firing tweeter, which Richard Vandersteen (the company's owner and designer) wrote in his manual (available on-line) that the rear firing tweeter is for overly damp rooms, and adds 100% distortion. Richard would not add a distortion producing option to his flagship speakers if that distortion sounded bad. I have heard the Sevens several times, in my local high-end store. But they never turned on the rear firing tweeter, because their room is not overly dampened. And I never thought to ask them to turn it on, just to hear the difference. Maybe I will ask them the next time I visit, if they are not too busy (don't want to bother them when they are busy). The wording that I used in my original comment was partially copied/pasted from the Model Seven's on-line manual (rev 1). I reworded it slightly, for the purpose of it fitting into my comment. But I did not alter its meaning. I would put the link to the manual here, but youtube tends to toss comments that include links. It is easy enough to find on-line on his web site. Once you open the manual for the Model Seven (rev 1) speakers, search for "tweeter" or "distortion". There will be more than one hit for those search terms. But it will get you there. There is another Model Seven on-line manual, for the XTRM version of those speakers. I did not look in that manual. But it is probably in there, too, because the XTRM version has upgrades for the bass section. In my initial comment, I asked Paul if the FR30's rear firing tweeter can be toggled on and off. He has not answered. My guess is that it has no toggle. Similar to the Model Seven speakers, the FR30's rear firing tweeter probably adds a pleasing, time mis-aligned distortion that sounds very good. Although I do not understand why the FR30s, which Paul touts as "The best speakers I have ever owned", would need a rear firing tweeter, which cannot be time-aligned. Note that Paul said "owned", and not "heard". I take that to mean that he has heard better sounding speakers than his FR30s. But too much of this is guess work, which is not good. It would all be avoided if Paul would reply with an answer. It is possible that the FR30's rear firing tweeter was a last-minute addition, because the FR30s were lacking some quality? And Paul does not want to reveal that his FR30s are not revealing a true image of the music (great sounding: Yes -- but not "true"). And that will not sit well with some folks that seek a 100% honest image. But this is all speculation, because Paul has not answered. And Paul does read the comments. He has replied to my questions many times (and I appreciate that he did). But I have been critical of some of the things that he has said in his recent videos, and I might have struck a nerve. Again, I can only guess to why he is not answering. I have a lot of respect for what Paul has accomplished in the field of high-end audio. But I kiss no one's butt. If Paul should be questioned on something, I will do so, respectfully. If he gets offended, that is on him. Did I offend him? Who knows? Like questioning a public office holder... the reporters should ask any proper questions, and the office holder should not get offended at proper questions, even if those questions uncover something that the office holder wanted to remain quiet. Lastly, I cannot know for sure that Paul answers comments. The replies come from "PS Audio", so that could be an employee? I think it is Paul. Just cannot confirm.

[@hoobsgroove]

yeah yeah no drivers perfect what is its distortion fo 2%? good bit of Blu-Tack sort it out . I hear that you have a dip at 40 Hz an 80 Hz of 2-3 db??

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@TheOnlySF49erFanInNewZealand]

Hey Paul…just imagine Arnie, Chris and you making a speaker together. It would be the absolute best speaker in the world. It’s sad that can never happen ☹️

[@necrodh]

and R.I.P: Bascom

[@TheOnlySF49erFanInNewZealand]

@@necrodh oh no! Really? RIP 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@navinadv]

I have seen several of these over-engineered woofers using massive 3” voice coils, shorting rings, dual spiders, 3-4 magnets, etc. used in car audio. One that comes to mind is the HST-18 from Stereo Integrity. They need prodigious mounts of power to get them work well. How different is the woofer in the FR30 from any other “massively over-built” woofer?

[@Bassotronics]

First off, a woofer and subwoofer have different goals and different frequency response. Woofers are designed to play bass with some midbass and occasionally mid range depending on how high they can go in frequency while the subwoofer is designed to only go lower than 80 Hz efficiently while some can go slightly higher in frequency response without distortion. A subwoofer is just there to help the woofer with any bass lower than 50Hz or so that the woofer can’t produce without either inherit noise etc. There is a reason why the ones used in PS audio are a lil expensive because of the capability of those woofers going so low without the need of a subwoofer and can go pretty high too with good transient response and very little distortion. People in the car audio world love to use subwoofers instead of woofers for the bass because of how much louder and deeper in frequency response they can go but are not necessarily good sounding or audiophile quality. In fact, my vehicle plays a loud amount of bass without a subwoofer but I have the subwoofer specifically for anything lower than 50Hz. Stereo Integrity makes awesome subwoofers, midranges and tweeters but they do not make woofers.

[@navinadv]

@@Bassotronics thanks for the clarification on the PS Audio woofers. I am in the process of designing a small (2 cu ft / 56 litre) budget DIY loudspeaker. Since I don’t have the experience and tools companies like PS Audio have I thought to keep it simple and use a wide-range driver like a Mark Audio MAOP 7 and augment it’s bass response by crossing it over to a small woofer/subwoofer from say 50-200Hz using a pair of 6-8” bass drivers from SEAS or SB Acoustics either a SB23MFCL45 which is classified as a subwoofer or a SB17CRC35 (classified as a woofer) or SEAS L16RN-SL (H1480) also classified as a woofer and used by Siegfried Linkwitz in his designs. I even thought of using 4 of the SEAS L16 woofers or SB17 to build something that resembles the KEF Blade with 4 woofers (2 on each side). My instincts were to go with one of the 2 woofers (L16 or SB17) but I was advised to consider the SB23 subwoofer as it should manage to get to 200Hz as well. This advice sort of blurred the lines between a woofer and subwoofer for me. I know neither of these drivers is an over engineered machine but I wonder what your thoughts are about how high a “subwoofer” should be used vs a woofer. I always thought a subwoofer should not be used above 80Hz or so. Can something like the SB23MFCL45 operate as high as 200Hz effectively?

[@Bassotronics]

@@navinadv I can only go so far with your question due to not having experience with those speakers you forementioned. But I know that a subwoofer which is capable of higher frequency response will have less distortion between those frequencies. I hope a person who has experience with those subwoofers you mentioned can help you more than I have.

[@navinadv]

@@Bassotronics thanks. So subwoofers can go up to 200Hz? I always assumed subwoofers are limited to less than 100Hz (usually less than 80Hz).

[@Bassotronics]

@@navinadv Some subwoofers (depending on build quality and parts) can go up to 200hz. Is it necessary?; no but depends on how the system as a whole is built and the goal. Technically, subwoofers should only play anything below 80hz, because in the end, that’s where they are most efficient at playing. Leave the woofer (not subwoofer) for anything above that.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

Chris and Danny of gr research really should do a video together. Like if you agree!

[@mrpositronia]

No thanks. But I'd like to see Danny try to claim superiority over Andrew Jones.

[@user-od9iz9cv1w]

I think it would be interesting.

[@editorjuno]

Chris is a much deeper thinker than Danny Richie, at least going by what they have to say in their respective video talks. There's no way Chris would buy into Danny's nonsense about "tube connectors" and hook-up wire insulation having an audible effect on speaker performance.

[@ClassifiedBrief]

@@editorjuno have you tried them? I have tried back to back blinded and Danny's stuff is far superior sounding than "typical" posts

[@googoo-gjoob]

@@editorjuno , if he heard it once, he would

[@transpermeance1535]

Arnie's Spirit needs an advocate at PS Audio. Judging from his high end designs he was committed to dipolar midrange, bottom octave transient accuracy, lower order crossovers hence the use of multiple drivers in each range, and line source or pseudo-line source . His point sources could sound spectacular like IRS Beta but with the need for 4th order crossovers never quite manage to put the pieces back together again after they were separated; I suspect ringing on transients revealed the seams. Flat frequency response is not more important than transient integrity because interesting music is almost all transients and frequency response is about average over time. Almost all the passive radiator's output is transient error which upsets the rhythm and drive of the music. The IRS and Genesis 1s are 3 way designs with weakness in 100-200Hz dynamics due to midrange driver excursion and power limitations. The FR30 seems to choose to address that very weakness which is where CB could win against AN's IRS . Accelerometer's dynamic range and noise characteristics limit the frequency response over which you can apply servo feedback so 2x12 woofers cannot compete with the 6 x 12 per side of the IRS and Genesis 1 so single box speakers of spouse approval size have to settle for lower playback levels . Once you commit to accurate bottom octave then you have the problem with the mid bass which now has to match the servo bass and the dipolar midrange . The FR30 choice is to sacrifice the very bottom octave accuracy ; it does show up for work down there so you will hear it working down there but it shows up for work late and hangs around after hours just so that the boss will think all is well down there. Once you get accustomed to the characteristics of boxless dipolar midrange cone or planar driver, it is hard to give that up. Every FR30 I have seen online seem to place them out from the wall just about where you would have placed a dipolar midrange speaker.

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@tommyK7282]

Should do four 10s with four 12in passive radiators on your next speakers.

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@harryburnett7086]

Honestly i love this shape anytime over FR30s , FRs look uncofortable and unapappealing to me

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@vasanthanb1947]

👍

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@spvlinn9009]

Looks like a pair of Linkwitz Orion twin brother dipoles speakers. They are maybe 40% dipoles….

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@geddylee501]

I'll sell my tannoys and give you £450, you'll have to pay for the shipping to the UK though ;-) 👍😁

[@stonefree1911]

I like the FR-30, but I like the aesthetics of this Arnie speaker much better.

[@googoo-gjoob]

by the boatload!

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@jordanlewis3790]

So basically there is a difference between a loudspeaker designer and a driver designer in what can be achieved

[@johnzamora8333]

Go to the sound on turn table with a two Sony amplifier

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@tomthompson7400]

Been looking forwards to this part 2 since yesterday but it was just an advert after all .... ah well not to worry I guess.

[@RoderikvanReekum]

Forget "part 2" you are FIRST congratulations on this amazing performance you get 🥇🏆🍾🥂👏🇺🇸 You were so fast to click!

[@tomthompson7400]

@@RoderikvanReekum lol Ive been holding my breath in anticipation since yesterday ,,,,

[@FrancisEVidal]

I don't doubt that Chris is good at his job, but the better you ever talk to? You never talked to Karl-Heinz Fink?

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@logtothebase2]

Pay Rise for chris then.

[@logtothebase2]

@i-mm-o res OK

[@net_news]

love the killers!

[@alternativemusicandbeyond6519]

Those are nice looking speakers but not WAF as women will hate them in their house. Speakers these days need to be sneaky like intergrated into a piece of furniture like End Tables, Coffie Table Subs and so on. Women hate audio systems with their looks. So something needs to change in the designs.

[@Simithh]

Thanks for watching and leaving a comment☝👆👆i have a package for you🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁🎁

[@zoltangz]

Paul, I love your videos, but this obsession of going over 7 minutes is bordering ridiculous!! Everyone knows that for a person to have a good attention span is about 20 minutes on average.. so it is ludicrous to break into two parts a 12-14 minute video and make us wait for a part two or three in such short videos as yours!!! I ABSOLUTELY HATE WHEN YOU DO THAT SO FREQUENTLY!!

[@googoo-gjoob]

chill Winston, chill.....

[@l0zerth]

Actually, we've reached the era of micro content, where a shocking percentage of people find 5 minutes to be the limit, and a minute or less is ideal. Vine would would have been king now, one of those inventions that was just too ahead of its time.

[@zoltangz]

@@l0zerth So sad... Too many people with Attention Deficit Disorder!!!

[@hom2fu]

more click more ads