Is a Geothermal Heat Pump Worth It? My Net Zero Home

[@UndecidedMF]

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[@Rhys_Beer]

Can you tell us more about the house, Does it have insulated windows? Did you think about adding a solar hot water heater etc

[@bobdickweed]

I dont think you are the first to get this system in , so you are not the "Guinea pig" ,just saying

[@nandesu]

Love your insights and videos. Though, I think you should relax on the cost aspect. The cost of something is not equivalent to the value of the thing. The value you purchased for that near 100k will last you decades if not more. If you decide to sell and make a life house v2 or v3, you've just locked in that value for the next owner.

[@DampeS8N]

If you took that extra 16 grand and put it in a mutual fund. It would double roughly every 7 years. If you take the 1000 savings off at the start instead of over the 7 years. That's 9 grand you have in the mutual fund over 10 years. Which would become 18 after the 7 years. Repeat. Take 7 more off and that's 11 which becomes 22 after 20 years. Then (22-7)*2 = 26 and so on. Notice that the number is growing. Now, it is _growing slowly._ However, it is still growing. Your system costs you money, it doesn't save you any money. The measure you're using, ignoring how much money you _would have made_ with your money, is how people get suckered into timeshares. Don't scam yourself. All-in-all, though, you aren't losing a _ton_ of money. 10 grand over 30 years. That's about $300 a year. (because we took the 1000 off at the start for each group of 7 years, these figures are lower than the real amount you're losing. Probably significantly but I'm not going to do the math.)

[@RogueSecret]

Be sure to clean the filters, and i'm convinced your heatpump should be working like this, 1kw inn and 4-5kw out.

[@ohrosberg]

I live in Norway, and installed a similar setup to yours back in 1999, and replaced the heat pump a few years back. There is one thing you didn't mention, the option of having in-floor radiant heating system, which is basically hoses that is cast in the concrete floors of my house. That's not cheap either, but the system was delivered with a 100 year warranty, so it's also a long term investment. We love this, as our floors are nice and warm during the winter period, and our kids and now grandkids love it too, because our floors are never cold. The downside is of course that you can't really use that system for cooling in the summer, but where I live, there's no real need for that. Also, since the heat comes from the floor, we can keep a somewhat lower indoor temperature without feeling cold. One downside is that it reacts slowly to change, because you need to heat up the concrete before you heat up the room, but with a good control system, that's not really a problem. The heat pump has an outdoor temperature sensor, which means that it can react long before the room temperature changes, so that mitigates that downside to a huge degree. The heat pump also delivers hot water like yours, but in sufficient amounts to meet the need we have, with four adults living in the house. Whether it is financially profitable or not is debatable, but if you ask me if I would do it again, the answer is yes, totally, the sheer comfort of it is amazing, and the heat pump lasts for at least 20 years.

[@timkors1346]

The upside to this system is that there is a lot of energy stored in the floor and you can add energy during the day. Most of the time there is more energy in the air during the day which will increase the performance of the heatpump.

[@heymikeyhelikesit8673]

Be advised! Your experience of nice, toasty warm floors would not be the same in Matt's super energy efficient home. To heat his home on the coldest days may only require 79° - 80°F (27° C) floors to maintain a 72°F room air temperature.The bottom temperature of human feet varies, but is usually around 89°F (29° C). At these temperatures, the floor will still feel relatively cold to a bare foot. Your home may require warmer floors to maintain a comfortable room air temperature. The floors are the radiators. Older homes with less insulation and drafty, inefficient windows require even higher floor temperatures to maintain indoor comfort. These are the the applications where the floors feel the warmest because they have temperatures in the 90° - 95°F range.

[@dwmcever]

I suggest NOT putting ANY piping or tubing in any foundation. It will leak at some point.

[@ohrosberg]

@@heymikeyhelikesit8673 Good points, and let me add that the floors aren't warm, perhaps lukewarm is a better word, just enough to not feel cold sitting on it. And yes, on the coldest days of the winter here (-15 C) 5 F, the temperature of my floor is probably around 27-29 C.

[@ohrosberg]

@@dwmcever That was also my concern when we debated installing it in 1999, but the 100 year warranty won me over, and it's been in daily use now for nearly 25 years without a problem. So, unless you drill into it or put a nail through them, you're good.

[@MichaelKusugak]

Matt, I grew up way up north, at the north end of Hudson Bay, right on the Arctic Circle. I learned to make igloos at a young age. In my teens, my dad sat me down and said, "I have to tell you about the igloo." Of course, being a teenager, I revolted. I said, "Dad, I know about the igloo, you taught me how to build them." But, undeterred, he told me about the igloo. He said when you build your igloo, build it in shallow snow so, by the time you cut your blocks, you will be on bare ground. That bare ground may be frozen but it is still warmer than the outside air and you can borrow a little bit of heat from that frozen ground to help heat your igloo. Where I grew up we have something we call aujuittuq, ground that never thaws, permafrost. If you build your igloo on lake ice, make sure there is water under the ice. That will serve the same purpose. The igloo is built on the same principle as a downdraft kiln; the doorway is way down low so you have to get down and crawl in and out because heat rises and you live in the dome which is higher up where it is warmer. The coldest day I remember in Nunavut, Canada, was -52C (-61 Fahrenheit). If I had an igloo that day, I could get the temperature up to 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4. You don't want to make it any warmer otherwise your walls will start to melt and turn to ice. And ice is so much denser than snow and has much less insulation value. You don't want ice, you want snow. And when it is -52 outside and +4 inside, there is a difference of 56 degrees between the outside world and the inside of your igloo. And when you are wearing caribou skins, that is plenty warm enough to be comfortable. My dad never went to school and didn't speak English but he understood geothermal heating. It is a principle that has been used by Inuit from Siberia to Greenland for thousands of years. A very interesting topic. I enjoy your posts. I built a superinsulated house in Rankin Inlet in the early 1980,s with triple-glazed windows. I also installed a heat exchange system and it served us very well for many years.

[@MinnesotaTurtle]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. That was very interesting to read and learn about.

[@koborkutya7338]

Good stuff, thanks for sharing here

[@waynegabler6570]

For the younger generation to make any money at it, they have to me able to sell a portable one in Mexico or Africa. A kit that fits into a shipping container and can be assembled 'on site' by a 'small crew'. They start with a 'flat platform', that is not included, and by the last piece being put in place an R-60 shelter that is put together like an Igloo is standing there. The 'accessory' container would be full of 'sail-boat quality items' including a wind turbine on top of the structure. Inside would be as modern, and modular, as possible, down to a 'repair package' that has all the 'little switches/do dads' that 'will eventually fail' so downtime is minimal. Most of the places the structures would end up are 'remote villages' as permanent structures, or a disaster zone where a portable village for many people is needed quickly. When the recovery is completed, the empty village is taken apart and moved. Your design can be lienced out to any factory in the world if it is worth 'mass production'. A 'geo-dome' that is 12" think could be made from 'foam blocks' and a water-proof coating. A better option might be all pieces that are in a kit are 12" deep, where the core is foam with a high R-Value and the outer part is a thin aluminum (or carbon-fiber) skin that easily locks in place after each move over a 50-year time period. The refugees on the Mexican border numbers about 500,000 unemployed people that were chased from their own homes, . . . by guess who?

[@eklectiktoni]

I love that story @MichaelKusugak

[@thistooshallpass5425]

Thank you! Really enjoyed reading this and learning too - fascinating!

[@ijchua]

The key thing missing in Matt's payback is a discount rate - money today is worth more than money tomorrow. Inflation is one reason why. The payback chart showed somewhere within 14 years but without taking into account into the fact that the $20k extra upfront is worth more than the eventual payback of "$20k" spread over many years in the future. Also, at those timescales, the equipment may fail and therefore never recoup the savings.

[@roadfordays]

Let's not forget the lost investment earnings you could have been making on that $20k over 14 years. At 5%, you lost an additonal $20,000 by not investing the extra cost. The real extra cost of the theoretical geothermal is $40,000 more. You would have to save an average of roughly $240/month in HVAC costs for 14 full years to even break even! We don't spend that much total using gas and regular A/C, and we live in Colorado, with extreme hot and cold temps. If you already have a house with A/C, there is just zero way that geothermal ever pencils out, and that's before you consider the additional cost of having to re-landscape your entire property to fix the utter destruction caused by the geothermal installation, or the carbon footprint of running all that shitty diesel equipement for weeks to scrape off your old landscaping and haul it away, dig the hundreds of feet of trenches, and install new landscaping.

[@jamesallen8107]

But doesn't the inflation concern work both ways? Conversely couldn't we expect that the utility / power costs used for Matt's new hvac or conventional heating / cooling (if he didn't use geothermal) would be going up along with inflation over the years? So actual cost of running a standard hvac system would have been higher over the years (due to inflation) than the flat estimates, kind of negating some or all of the inflated payback dollar concern? (since actual cost of running a standard system would have ultimately been higher with inflation) At least where I live, the gas and electric utilities are constantly looking for ways to raise utility rates, more than inflation. If Matt has purchased equipment that reduces energy used for heating and cooling, so each year as future energy rates go up, he is effectively saving more on his hvac costs than his projections, true? even if in "inflated" dollars. This was/is also true for my solar panel payback also, as electric / utility prices go up, I don't pay any additional cost for the power generated by the solar panels. Also, "the equip may fail" comment, makes it sound like you're anticipating a total loss - but a lot of the cost is drilling the underground pipes that have 50+ year life expectancy (and I believe warranty) and unlikely to fail, and no mechanics to that portion. The indoor equip is also supposed to have a longer life expectancy than conventional hvac, but even if problems, which can also occur for standard equipment, the first expectation would be to have it repaired if possible rather than assume total loss? I've been at a local county (not vendor) sponsored presentation where the presenters had been personally using the tech for many years already, one for 20 years, so while this tech is evolving, its doesn't seem to be overly groundbreaking / risky at this point... with a little research to find installers with some proven experience, as you might do when installing conventional hvac otherwise. --- It's been nice with solar to get electric bills that are approx 2/3 lower each month (I don't have room for enough solar panels to offset all my electricity). I'm considering geothermal - it would be nice to further reduce my ongoing utilities, and as a bonus, knowing that I'm not generating as much CO2 for ongoing energy, or pollution from my conventional natural gas heating.

[@eligrobin3815]

​@@roadfordays Discount rate calculations include this fact. That's part of why your discount rate may be as high as it is. If you can earn 7% (inflation adjusted) per year, it would be irrational to put you money into something you expect to earn 5% per year (assuming you will live infinitely long, and have infinite risk tolerance).

[@RoryK]

​@@jamesallen8107What he said

[@familyatsea3621]

Chuckled a little when I saw a 14 year payback, because most HVAC equipment doesn't last much longer than 15 or 20 years anyway.

[@fanriadho]

The richer you are, the more savings options you can choose

[@DPowered2]

The main barrier for living a more cost effective life is to already have so much money you can afford to

[@jamesallen8107]

True... although perhaps not ideal, some installers of geothermal (and solar) do have financing options. In the long term it is still supposed to pay for itself and result in net savings, with lower running costs and tax incentives, and longer estimated system life. But you'd need to run the numbers and risks to decide if reasonable to pursue. Some stats seem to indicate that many rich, or that retire comfortably, aren't born into it, or necessarily have super high paying jobs, but are financially conservative, and take advantage of opportunities to save where possible over their lifetime. 😀 Perhaps this is an opportunity (?) Sorry - maybe I've been looking into these too long and have been indoctrinated.

[@RoryK]

This applies to housing, finance, food, vehicles.. the system is set up that way because they're the people who set up the system

[@danlangston1321]

My parents have an open loop geothermal heat pump. Pumps water out of the well and dumps it in the lake in the backyard. Unit is from 1992 and still works.

[@WaterFurnace]

Impressive

[@dakota4766]

open loop is a really interesting idea. you need a well anyways so no extra cost there. they come across as really simple systems.

[@methos1999]

Definitely a great way to go if you have room for or access to a pond. How many acres are they on?

[@chrisE815]

​@@dakota4766you domestic water shares a well with the ground source system?

[@robertdalga128]

I also installed an open loop geothemal system back in 2006. These systems require a good clean source of ground water (i.e. well) in order to keep the heat exchanger clean. Furthermore, open loop systems use a lot of water (e.g. 3 - 5 gal per minute) when operating. I really don't understand why code don't allow you to return the water to the well (since one is only extracting the heat) rather then having to dump it on site. The last thing I would like to add is although these systems are highly efficient they still use a large amount of electricity and natural gas is still quite a bit cheaper.

[@jamessheufelt1730]

My brother installed a Trane ground source system 25 years ago and it’s been great for him. Never a problem having enough heat in Michigan winters.

[@matthewshultz8762]

The 'desuperheater' concept is a fantastic way to save energy and cost when applied to kitchens. Commercial kitchens need a lot of (usually conditioned) airflow which generates heat through a normal DX air conditioning unit. Most of that heat can be used to generate the hot water for food prep and dishwashing. Normally a kitchen has a few gas water heaters, but more and more I am calling for energy recovery preheat with a gas tankless to manage final temperature. New tech is great!

[@punkdigerati]

Commercial kitchens generally have walk in coolers, which can give all day hot water from a desuperheater.

[@dus10dnd]

I wish we could implement desuperheaters with air sourced systems... or even normal ACs. It would be a great efficiency booster. It is technically possible, but the systems aren't build to accomodate it and it would require running the plumbing to the exterior for the loop... but that really isn't a problem. The loop could be closed with a glycol solution so it would be handled for the winter, or a winterization step to store the liquid in an indoor tank and bypass the loop could be used. It is crazy how many things we do and pay for twice. If we eliminated half of these things we would all be in better economic and environmental shape. We pay to remove heat from our refrigerators and pay to add heat to our hot water... we pay to adjust the interior climate in different ways throughout the year. We pay to have treated water to water our plants... we pay to have our waste water cleaned just to dump it into a river. So much wasted effort.

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

@@dus10dnd yes I agree. It seems not prohibitively difficult to set new standards for homes and commercial installations that all energy and waste products be reused, fed into each other, or recirculated as much as possible.

[@junkerzn7312]

Yes, but also no. Hot water does not require all that much energy to produce in the first place. A heat pump water heater in a 2-person household (for example) eats around 2kWh/day. Virtually nothing. The commercial solutions might make sense simply due to the scale and operation of the equipment, but for a private residence the added complexity almost never makes sense because you can't do-away with the water heater. Your A/C might not be running all day long, so you can't depend on the pre-heater to make the water hot enough on its own.

[@dus10dnd]

@@junkerzn7312 2kWh/day isn't negligible. That is more than half the capacity of my Ecoflow Delta Pro. Nobody is suggesting that a desuperheater alone (at least just by siphoning off the waste heat) is going to cover all of the hot water heating needs, but between that and being able to store hot water like a battery, you could heat the water when you have excess generation or cheap electricity, alone. It is part of a comphrehensive plan to manage energy use and cost.

[@mrfusioneng]

We also have a net zero home in South Florida, I did my geothermal a little differently, I drilled 14 vertical wells around 12ft deep, ( by hand, 4” dia with a half inch electric drill), using 3/4 lawn sprinkler tubing, so the single serial line goes up and down from around 3 ft down to 12 ft, the over to the next hole 14 times. Unfortunately the ground water temp down here is 72 degrees, the water table is only 1-2 ft underground. We then run thru a small solar powered chiller to get the water temp down to around 68 f, which then is circulated thru a heat exchanger in the attic in the hvac main channel in the attic. It works mostly on convection, with a little assist from a variable speed blower to get constant air flow thru all the hvac ducts. All the air returns down here are in the ceiling, as hot air rises, the warm air rises gets sucked in thru the returns, gets cooled by the heat exchanger, then falls out of all the hvac ceiling registers in every room, ( after passing thru filtration and a single pass uv germ system). So the house has continuous flow of clean cooled filtered air, ( several in home have allergy problems). All of our attic ducting is r30, so our worst temperature drop or rise thru the attic is only 1 degree, ( we have temp sensors at the beginning and end of every duct in the home). Just a different approach, result is this small passive system cuts the main hvac run time in half. Didn’t cost more than a few hundred dollars, and it actually works. Just thought I would share for those interested in a super simple and inexpensive solution.

[@HikingDog-pv7es]

@@mrfusioneng would love to read more about your setup.

[@mrfusioneng]

@@HikingDog-pv7es i pretty much described everything, the two insulated 100 gallon water tanks in the garage,( $140 ea at home depot), do all the work. During the day while the sun shines the solar powered water chillers cool the house, and the stored water down to around 60 degrees. Once the sun goes down most of the electric chillers go off, and the system just recirculates the cool water thru the heat exchanger in the attic into the night, ( the stored energy in the water is equal to two power walls worth of stored energy). Our battery system, ( around the size of one powerwall in watt hours, using inexpensive batteries in the garage). Powers the circulating fan, water pump, and an electric dehumidifier, do keep humidity in check, ( a south Florida thing). We still have a central hvac system in the house, but this systems cuts the run time hours of the central system in half. We keep the house at around 74, if we have a hurricane and lose electric for a couple weeks, ( and can’t use the main hvac system). My little auxillary system can maintain the house below 80 degrees, ( without it the inside of the house would be over 100f). That’s about it, nothing more, and didn’t cost an arm and a leg, ( maybe a couple grand).

[@JohnMayfield-NS]

We did ground source geo when we built 12+ years ago, horizontal loop, desuperheater also. Our ERV is separate from the system and no whole house dehumidifier, but when humidity becomes an issue we run the cooling on geo and that takes care of it pretty fast. I forget the total cost off hand (guessing around 25k-30k), and compared to oil heat, which was the norm here, our payback was estimated at 8 years - but oil prices have only gone up and it wouldn't including any kind of cooling system. Maintenance so far has been.. changing/cleaning the filter. I'm extremely happy with our set up and wouldn't do anything else if given the opportunity.

[@jonnysegway7866]

When considering payback, don't forget opportunity cost, i.e. what else you could do with that sum of money. Interest rates are now higher so 25k over 8 years at 5% interest would increase to 37.25k

[@zedzedder4947]

​@jonnysegway7866 Why would that matter in his case? Not investing in the system at the time (not installing heating) wasn't exactly an option. Right? You may have an argument about the opportunity cost for the difference compared to the cheaper option. But the interest rates have only spiked relatively recently, and only after the inflation rate increased, as far as I'm aware. We would also have to compare the maintenance cost of the two systems. I've had to maintain an oil furnace for a couple years, and in the cold season I was cleaning it weekly. Another important thing is the ac for the summer time. With a conventional heating system, you also have to buy that. And the last thing, how many average people do actually know how to consider a good investment? Out of those who know, how many have invested in low risk funds that had been later pushed into FTX (just an example), whithout their knowledge even? What I am trying to say is that I think putting his money in the expensive heating system was a good long term investment. One major risk factor is that he is highly dependent on electricity. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[@szurketaltos2693]

@zed -- can derisk the electricity part with solar as well, though admittedly this works less well in the winter in cold places. Unfortunately micro wind isn't great.

[@ram64man]

please don't forget the yearly maintenances and don't forget after year 5 to check for any drastic change in glycol drop over a month for possible split due to winter,

[@Gwallacec2]

This man got his whole house build sponsored and I can’t even afford looking at a house.

[@Dysputant]

This will be 1099.99 $ for thinking about house.

[@SassyTheSasquatch96]

JuSt StOp CoNsUmInG LiKe We DiD!111! Every boomer ever who bought all the houses and then committed economic self-harm to prevent anyone else from having the same opportunities as them,.

[@WiseOwl_1408]

He is bought and paid for

[@ultrastoat3298]

💀 😂

[@linuxmill]

maybe you should make useful videos rather than comment on them.

[@BillEichinger]

Working in Antartica we built Quincy huts for survival. They tend tend to stay 30 degrees warmer than the outside temps. Built from snow not ice blocks.

[@jstaffordii]

This video will definitely need a 10 year follow up on actual annual maintenance costs ie. all the extra required filters, equipment longevity, manufacturers still in business for essential repair parts, if they go subscription costs for IOT data and the big "IF" of did it actually pay off in ROI before equipment needing replacement due to mechanical/IOT obsolescence failure?

[@dontbanmebrodontbanme5403]

I'm going geo as well and I think one of the biggest concerns for me is, will the installer be around 15 years from now. If not, and something needs servicing, who does that? But getting off of oil heat (our oil boiler died) will be great.

[@My_HandleIs_]

In the Nordics, we have used this tech for over 30 years. Usually people swap to a new heatpump after 18-22 years (or so), when it is worn out, rusted etc The new ones are much more efficient and gives you data to analyze and to map towards hourly electricity prices (rest when high, work when cheap).

[@My_HandleIs_]

IVT, Nibe, Daikin, CTC are known brands…

[@UndecidedMF]

I'm definitely going to be doing regular updates on my experience. 👍

[@rikardekvall3433]

Not only the running costs, but also the health issues and costs. How much better do you feel? Less sick? With todays bad outdoor air, although tuff upcoming regulations, the filtered and dehumidified air is a no brainier. So good. Big investment in health. Don’t ruin it with a pet!

[@meezerluvr]

About 15 years ago, I had to replace both AC and furnace. I compared pricing for standard AC and furnace vs. a geothermal system. After government incentives, I estimated it would take about 5 years to recoup the additional cost. I chose to go with a vertical ground loop both due to the cold climate in the area and how we used our property. The wells cost $10k. However, the results were fantastic. My house was more comfortable than ever before, and energy costs were reduced so much that I recouped the excess costs before 3 years. I've moved since then, but if I were building a new house, I would almost certainly go with geothermal.

[@MB-nm8tt]

The biggest problem with green tech is that it never gets cheaper and governments have to provide subsidies and incentives to make them affordable and, so, we’re stuck in a perpetual loop of the tech never getting cheaper because governments are essentially interfering in a market that makes no sense to keep it afloat. I’m not saying this tech isn’t amazing or efficient. I’m saying it’s an unrealistic solution for the regular person.

[@meezerluvr]

@MB-nm8tt - I agree. But in this case, I would still opt for a geothermal heat pump if I were building a home, even without the incentives. Unfortunately, one of the biggest expenses (drilling the wells) isn't going to get any cheaper. There's room for downward cost pressure on ground-loop materials and the heat pump itself if manufacturers can't continue to depend on 30% federal incentives.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

The one thing that makes the well drilling cost more palatable is that those ground loops last for freaking ever.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Oil production is heavily subsidized by the government as well. It would be interesting to see the market dynamics if all the energy subsidies were dropped, though it would be a huge shock to the economic system.

[@Austden]

Geothermal is the clear winner from a technical standpoint but seems to be best (makes the most sense financially) for bigger scale projects. A developer doing an entire neighborhood or a grid wide application.

[@UndecidedMF]

Communal/neighborhood geothermal is really where this tech sings. There's a cool pilot project doing this in Framingham, MA right now.

[@jhouck1969]

@@UndecidedMF The more I've heard on geothermal, the more it annoys me to not see it being incorporated into new housing developments - the most cost-efficient time to run the lines would be during initial construction, when the ground is already being dug up for foundations and the equipment and workers are already on-site. And if the lines are already in the ground, there isn't really a cost difference between installing ground-source instead of air-source heat pumps. I like the idea of retrofitting neighborhoods with geothermal heat - I'm sure it comes with higher up-front costs, but is probably less expensive per household than individual installations.

[@Austden]

@@jhouck1969 I’m a developer and can tell you exactly why we don’t do this.. the financial incentives are not aligned. it’s extra cost during installation that doesn’t pay off for the developer. It only benefits the homeowner. And 99% of homeowners don’t care about this stuff. They just want the pretty countertops they saw in their friends house.

[@eDoc2020]

@@UndecidedMF Why hadn't I heard of this project before? I looked it up and it's in an area I've been to before.

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

@@Austden perhaps in the future it will become the new standard.

[@TroyFoster1921]

For anyone wondering about how Geothermal systems work when scaled up for commercial properties, they work great for buildings with balanced yearly heating and cooling loads, such as office buildings located in the Midwest, USA. I'm an MEP Engineer and for commercial projects, with the accelerated depreciation option, and Inflation Reduction Act tax write offs (that include all costs for Geo, including engineering fees), we've found that if you will be owning a property for any length of time, it is actually cheaper right now to install Geo on large buildings than is it to install conventional systems. We recently finished overseeing the installing of our GHX system design on the Michigan Capital Building in Lansing, MI.

[@RobertHopkinsArt]

I am so happy to see that you put in an Aprilaire dehumidifier into your system. I have two of them installed. One in the HVAC and one of them in the crawl space below the house. It's set at 45% to help with any mold and it helps to keep the bugs out too!

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks for sharing

[@multipotentialite]

How is a dehumidifier different than an air conditioner?

[@Cheese1master]

​@@multipotentialiteDehumidifiers don't cool the space (they actually heat it up a small amount) and are typically more efficient at their designed task than A/C at pulling water out of the air. They're important in efficient home design because you don't always need cooling when you need dehumidification.

[@multipotentialite]

@@Cheese1master How do you remove water witbout cooling the air? There is no outside component so it increases heat in the closed system.

[@Cheese1master]

@@multipotentialite You're right, it does cool the air, it just dumps heat back into the air before releasing it. Functionally it has both the condenser and evaporator (indoor/outdoor component of A/C or heat pump) in the same box. Whereas modern heat pumps are optimized for greater temperature change efficiency (sensible heat), dehumidifiers optimize for latent heat (moisture) removal.

[@artzi_ip]

Hello. just wanted give you some information from my geothermal home from Finland. My house is build in 2009, it has 208 m2 in 2 storeys, house has 30cm of insulation, limited windows with triple glasses, heat exchanger and incoming air preheating. Geothermal system is made with field pattern, because the ground was good for that so the pipe is at least 2 meters and it is 500 meters long. pump is Nibe Brand and i have not changed a compressor yet, it has 27430 starts and 23070 hours in it. our yearly energy consumption is 12-14000 kwh and it includes everything also garage, so i would say that you are not going to be disappointed. i have calculated that without geothermal pump, our energy consumption would be over 33000 kwh year.

[@marktomlinson3448]

I am in Ontario Canada about 100 miles north of Lake Ontario. My 4 ton Climate Master 2 stage ground source heat pump has run for 15 years with NO service calls, and paid for itself at about 8 years, as was estimated before purchase. It saves about 75 % of the electricity cost that the previous baseboard heaters used. It heats completely without using the back-up heaters down to minus 30 F. It uses a ground loop buried 5 feet down. I added a soft-start unit myself, which will extend the life of the compressor significantly. I have never been sorry I invested in a GSHP.

[@WiseOwl_1408]

Below freezing it doesn't work? And you live in Canada?

[@marktomlinson3448]

@@WiseOwl_1408 Yes, as I already stated I am in Canada, it it DOES work well below freezing outside temperatures.

[@wthomas5697]

I'm going with ground source heat pump but definitely not forced air. Radiant is the way to go. No question about it. So much nicer.

[@EsotericArctos]

The variable speed is what is used in anything labelled "inverter" technology as well on heat pumps. It's been around a very long time in split systems, and is quite common. Quite a number of central systems also use the same variable speed technology on the compressor as well. It certainly is not anything new, and two stage is rare in heat pumps, mostlly two stage is used in gas furnace style heaters. It does help keep things more even and saves considerable energy cost.

[@topgunm]

Great video. Norway here. We are also doing a geothermal heat pump for our new house and floor heating in all rooms. Not only is it a more efficient solution than air, but other features that you didn't mention is not having an ugly/noisy box on the outside of the house that also has to do "reverse cycles" to remove the ice buildup. Another nice feature with geothermal is that you can use it for passive cooling. Basically pumping the cooled brine through a radiator with a fan blowing on it.

[@BorderKeeper]

Our apartment complex (50 apartments) has "shared ownership" system in place and we decided in our regular meetings to go with a geo heat pump. No HVAC only water so it does not cool only heat, but considering its an old soviet style "panelák" it's the best we could do. Ignoring the benefits you outlined, which we also got, we also are now in a different bracket with our electricity supplier and so overall we have cheaper electricity per kWh as well, which added some savings to it. Don't have exact numbers, but so far it works great.

[@TroyFoster1921]

When you are talking about a heat pump that only heats, and doesn't cool, are you referring to a deep water well that is pulling hot water from deep in the earth or a part of the earth with natural hot springs? Or are you still referring to a geothermal well that is installed in ground that naturally sits at about 50°F? I ask because if you have a Geothermal well in 50°F ground like the one described in this video, and you only pull heat from the ground, the ground will keep getting colder until it starts to freeze. When that happens, you have a pretty big problem. We've been called out to fix a school's Geothermal system because the original engineer messed up and their football field was heaving due to the building of ice around the Geo pipes. Now if you have a hot spring and you're just using that hot water to send heat into radiators or heated floors, that's completely different.

[@BorderKeeper]

@@TroyFoster1921 wow didn’t know geothermal wells were a thing that’s a cool story. Sadly no it’s a boring old thermal pump that uses a fluid for heat transmission couple feet below ground

[@porcupinepunch6893]

​@@TroyFoster1921 He's saying that he doesn't get any cooling because the heat is delivered through radiators

[@willywilkins7494]

Matt, we have owned a series 5 Waterfurnace for 20 years. The AC performance is OUTSTANDING. The winter heating is somewhat underwhelming so we supplement this season with a wood burner and a small LP gas room unit to heat our rural Iowan home during the cold months.

[@samuelgilbert9734]

The thing that surprised me the most was the cost of the ERV and dehumidifier. I live in Quebec and ERV are mandatory for new residential constructions since the mid 90's. Both are pretty mature technologies and since you ran the fresh air to your HVAC system, the only ducts needs were for the returns. The whole house dehumidifier also only needed a loop to your HVAC system. The cost kind of feel excessive to me because of that. However, I'm not surprised the drilling for the geothermal system was pretty expensive given the labor and equipment required. I have a friend that had a geothermal system installed about 10 years ago. I should ask him if he's willing to share the cost and his experience.

[@cbcbmad]

@traybern r u ok?

[@kyletech709]

10 years ago, my parents build our family’s forever home with the same goals as you in mind. We went with commercial grade water furnaces, as it was the only things available in the size needed for a 6 person house at the time. We went with 7, 200ft vertical wells and the cost was higher than now. But, the energy savings and comfort has been well worth it. With almost 0 equipment maintenance cost we’ve been able to comfortably heat and cool our house even in the cold winters or hot summers. We’ve just installed the desuperheater option that we never did originally and it’s been fantastic for creating hot water and reducing our propane consumption. I hope your home provides the same level of comfort for you!

[@KMCA779]

7,200ft? That'd put your well at the 9'th deepest hole in the world. You sure you don't mean 720ft?

[@kyletech709]

@@KMCA779 Maybe I should have typed that differently for clarity. We installed 7 wells, each 200ft deep, providing about 1 ton of cooling capacity each. It’s a little more than we needed, but we wanted to prevent any of the wells from “burning out” during a prolonged series of “design day” temperatures in the summer or just regular use over 10+ years. Hope this explains everything and more!

[@diggitus]

@@KMCA779 Bro you just happen to have a ranked list of the deepest holes in the world to hand? :)

[@vickiamundsen2933]

I LOVE my ground-source geo. Dates to 2010, and yes the drilling cost was heart-stopping. I calculated the break-even point as being 10 years (my system is entirely electric.) Just passed 13 years in. My electric bill averages $100 per month.

[@lunchbox917]

I've never seen a video that was so clear articulate and explained everything

[@MrRich2u]

I loved my Geo. We had the loop in our private lake. Saved quite a bit of money for the installation.

[@UndecidedMF]

That's a great way to handle the loop! Very cool 😉

[@robertcarless7445]

With regard to cooling (in our climate we never need heating) I'm about to build a new small retirement house on a couple of acres. I intend to make a large swimming pond/lake. I'm thinking of laying piping in the bottom of the lake, pumped through a heat pump to cool the house, Much less work to install but would it be as efficient as in ground?

[@robertcarless7445]

With regard to cooling (in our climate we never need heating) I'm about to build a new small retirement house on a couple of acres. I intend to make a large swimming pond/lake. I'm thinking of laying piping in the bottom of the lake, pumped through a heat pump to cool the house, Much less work to install but would it be as efficient as in ground?@@UndecidedMF

[@nikblue22]

Thanks!

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks so much

[@moonthief869]

I didn’t experience the same prices as Matt with the well which also doubles for domestic water costing a little over $10k. Mine is an 440’ open loop though which probably costs less. The rest of the system (radiant floors) would have cost about the same if I used an air source system. In the coldest months of Maine I’m expending about 1200 kWh for the month in a 3000 sqft home. So happy with the results.

[@donotlike4anonymus594]

Yeah he overpaid to an absurd degree... Matt truely msde a stupid decision Because of vanity or arrogance prhaps He completly ignored the oprotunity costs of 100k (Idk how'd that work out for him but for me at least 100k would've lasted for 40 years of electricity Given a conservative retun on investment of 6% but let's even account for inflation so say 4% within 40 years thoes 100k could grow into around half a million worth.... (But let's suppose with a tesla and much higher energy usage and prices the same amount only lasts for 20 years it'd still double into around 200k) You can never forget the oprotunity costs

[@yawson06]

That's awesome! I'm in new England as well with an electrified home. Air source heat pumps in my home paired with solar. 1820 sqft home. Are you using solar to offset your electric bill?

[@carterlommel1344]

Dont forget about apportunity cost. In this case it was a $16,000 premium to save $1000 a year. If that 16k was invested instead with 10% return would have made $1,600 in gains meaning a profit of $600 by not doing the more effiient option. Doesnt by any means make it the wrong choice, just always something to consider with large up front costs.

[@ericmaclaurin8525]

Going horizontal and incorporating into your landscaping are the best ways to keep the price low but using a pond as part of the system allows a much smaller area to be used and that can include equipment in the pond to accelerate evaporative cooling if needed.

[@TroyFoster1921]

Pond systems need to be pretty deep if you plan to heat with that system as well. Hybrid systems are great, but the heat transfer needs to be somewhat balanced so you can drain and recharge the 'thermal battery' that is the earth/pond or else the temperature will get out of the range that is useful to water source Geothermal heat pumps

[@tauritaal]

Geothermal heating has been the go-to solution in Northern Europe for decades. It isnt that expensive (around 20-30k with floor heating and radiators for 2nd floor) and it consumes a lot less energy than air pumps. 150m2 house and -30C winter month only consumes 500kwh (heating+water). Hard to beat that value and comfort.

[@embain269]

I've got the same setup, de-superheater as well, loving it so far. Just so everyone has some numbers to go off of, I spent 40k on my setup (this included ducting since it was a new build) but got almost 15k in tax credits.

[@charleslee5550]

@@embain269 Can I ask where you are located and who you used? I’m looking to do this also. Thanks.

[@ascienceguy-5109]

I installed a ground source heat pump in 2004 for several reasons. 1) I had to do something. My 1929 house had the original coal-fired gravity furnace which had been converted to natural gas. It was very inefficient (the pilot flame was 4"tall) and there was no cooling for the building. 2) My income made paying large sums up-front feasible and we were aiming longterm to keep costs down when we retired. 3) I understood the theory, as Matt explained, and had faith in it. 4) My plan was to add roof top solar PV sufficient to largely power the heat pump, so paying less monthly for power and heat was inevitable. Now many years later I am glad I spent the big bucks when I did.

[@jeffersonoliveiraUSA]

I'm going to start building a house next year, and my idea is to do it like you. Geothermal is the future.

[@larrybolhuis1049]

We are 30 year geothermal users in Michigan with a home comparable in size to Matt's. When we tell people our electric bill ranges from 250 to 350 a month they freak out. When we tell them we have no gas and no propane they say: Wait what? We also have the desuperheater making hot water with electric water heater backup. I work at home and have several computers running as well as a 150 ft tower full of antennae supplying Internet to the neighborhood, all included in that number. Our heat pump is also WaterFurnace but we could not justify the cost of the higher series units and run a two speed 3000 series. Its basically silent even when running on high with only light blower noise mostly noticeable on high if you are within a few ft of the unit. Highly recommended! Our home is not built to Matt's standard but does have 6" walls and is very well insulated for a 30 year old home.

[@smoke7877]

@larrybolhuis1049 good for you

[@erawlins1]

I'd love to see videos on alternative drilling methods. I replaced my air-source heat pump with geothermal in 2009 using a vertical well and have zero regrets.

[@michaeljorgensen790]

Horizontal ground source field . I borrowed a backhoe from a farmer and it cost me a case of good steaks ($400). I wonder how much your well cost to drill. Was it $18,000 like in this video? Still have zero regrets?

[@Dzver000]

@UndecidedMF Hey there , greetings from Norway. Been watching your videos for a while. Just wanted to mention few things as I my self work in the Ventilation industry. (long post) First thing is I see that the Ventilation unit (ERV) that was used is of the "cross heat exchange" , this type of units have been outdated in the scandinavian countries for at least 10yrs, and have been replaced with a "rotary heat exchange".. It's basically an aluminium wheel with cores, kinda like radiator on a car. What this does is that it can recover around 80-85% of the heat for basically free. On top of that it transfers moist too, so you're getting 2 in 1 with it. we typically see humidity been kept around 40-50% with this units alone in the winter time with temperatures below freezing point, so heat is quite high indoors. The other disadvantage of the unit that you have is that in the winter when it's cold outside it creates ice in the heat exchanger, as hot air come in from indoors and freezing cold air from outdoors. Therefor the ventilation unit has to do a "de-icing" process which means a lot of energy lost. Many units had a "pre-heater" to prevent the freezing in the first place. But again that's a lot of energy lost as you would be heating the outdoor air. This does not happen with the new units, as the "rotary heat exchanger" rotates (as the name says) so it never freezes, and you get 80-85% heat recovery as well as humidity transfer for a healthy and fresh home environment. On top of that you can heat the air after the heat exchanger to desired temperature. And since you have a heat pump with hot water , you could have had a water heat coil and use that for heating. Now for pricing , Norway is by far not considered a "cheap" country , but for a new built house with 4-5 sleeping bedrooms + living room + few bathrooms/WC + washing room +kitchen you would be looking around 9-11000$ with all the equipment and custom duct work with insulation of much higher efficiency than of that used at your place. So the 21000$ that you payed is 100% on the "crazy expensive" side even for Norwegian standards. And on top of that you have gotten a way older system and way less efficient than the current ones, and since efficiency was on your top goals, I thing you got "played" here as you didn't get the best product for the money, and absolutely overpayed. This was my two cents , hope to see more videos of your house and the data that you gather.

[@arlenekufchock1394]

Wow, $9-11k? Wow, we need an international showcase KZbin, have they built one in Oslo that also has a good KZbin with english translation? These Norwegian companies need to go international and sell to us Americans, if American companies are "TOO PROUD" as reflected in their 5x pricing. Which company names build your systems in Norway? Let's get them imported to the US. Thanks!

[@SwordFighterPKN]

The big problem is that the upfront cost only pays off if this is a forever home. Very few people are going to build a home in a subdivision and add cool tech like this since no one thinks that is going to be their last home. Geo thermal should just be part of the building code for new construction.

[@9thebigcool]

Even if you are not in a forever home, if th warenty is transferable, then having those extras can improve the value of the home, help sell the home faster, and be a selling point that attracts more people to bid on the home.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

@@9thebigcool - You don't need cool things to sell a home today, it just being on the market is enough. You will not get your money back on that upgrade.

[@9thebigcool]

@SwordFighterPKN depends on how you look at things. How long are you planning on being there? If it's 1-2 years yea it might not be worth it. If it's 5-6 years that's likely closer to the break even and you still have improved home facilities that can command the higher asking price. It's also possible you finance it at 0-3% get the 30% federal credit, invest the credit and break even in 3 years. The math and timing determines if it's a good thing or not.

[@peto22]

In my area, ground source heat pumps are valued so much that the existence of the system increases the value of the property practically by the cost of purchasing the system. Here, of course, the installation of a geothermal heat pump in an existing house with underfloor heating costs approximately €20-25k.

[@SwordFighterPKN]

@@9thebigcool have you ever build a house? 3% that rates not coming back anytime soon. Sounds like you just want someone to build the house you want, which is the cheapest way to get this done.

[@Beatboxer96gt]

We just reached the finish line of our Geothermal install for our house this year. Very pleased with the performance in the summer, slightly scared to see the electric bill in the winter... (Cold NY winters) Hopefully it won't be bad, and still less than the crazy cost of propane we were dealing with before. Love your videos!

[@szurketaltos2693]

I've heard upstate NY is kind of breakeven territory for current cold climate air source heat pumps (keeping in mind there are also climate and health improvements from no combustion that improve the value proposition even more). So geothermal should be even better, probably.

[@michaelhersom9600]

We have a geothermal and live in Maine, with other electrical use considerations like all led lights our electric bill still stay very comparable to family with traditional heat sources without the benefit of cooling in the summer

[@danmccoy6164]

I got 3 different estimates for geothermal. All of them had very different ideas for equipment. 2 of them telling me I needed 6 tons atleast. All had a set of my plans. $45,900, and $45,689. I found out a local HVAC company had been installing geothermal for over 35years. He looked at my plans and said "You're only going to need 1ton for cooling. And 3 maybe 4ton for heating. But I need to run heat calcs". He came back with much simpler equipment and a 2stage bosch heat pump 3ton normally. Jumping to 4ton when - 20 for a week. I thought kool I'm going to be able to afford this.... His estimate was $45,200. I asked the HVAC guy from work if he could get the equipment that was listed on the last estimate. He said sure. I installed it myself. Including the infloor heat. 3400sqft $22,000. That includes the Panasonic cold climate ERV. I had also gotten estimates for conventional HVAC $28,000- $32,500. I used the same guy that all 3 estimates were using. For the horizontal loops, 4 coils. On one acre lot. $5,000. And he came back after I had everything hooked up. And flushed/filled the system with antifreeze. I installed the insulation and pex for the inslab downstairs. And had concrete poured over it. Upstairs I had the contractor install warmboard subfloor. And I installed the loops and manifolds. The inslab will very in temp +or- 5 or 6degs. The warmboard is +or- 1-2 deg. It's been up and running for 6 years. My house is all electric. The Bosch heat pump also has desuperheater. It keeps up with all my hot water. I use chilled water fan coils for cooling. I keep the entire 3400sqft as hot/cold as I want. 10,080 watts of solar. Up and running as soon as the roof went on. So I had it while I was building. Since the solar started, to today. Have had ZERO BILLS. Oh yah I live in Wisconsin. And I drive a forklift for a living.

[@Tregcon]

@danmccoy6164, what part of WI do you live in. I'm building March 2024 in WI. I would be interested in talking about your system. I'm on the fence with WSHP vs. ASHP vs. standard gas forced air. I've heard nothing but complaints with horizontal fields losing capacity as the heating season goes on as the earth is not quick to replenish the heat that's taken out of the ground.

[@danmccoy6164]

I live in Campbellsport Wisconsin. I think a lot of the problems are due to undersized horizontal loops. I used G.O.Loop. For the horizontal loops. They are the one that all the pro geothermal companies use in this region. He came and checked out my lot before I bought it. To tell me if I could fit what I was planning. Before I bought. I have my house as warm as I want. I've checked incoming water temp. Over the 6 years. That I've been running my system. It is actually higher now than when I first started up the system. I don't know why. Unless maybe global warming. He sized it for me. I heat and cool all 3400sqft. My house is super efficient. I designed it myself. I spent a lot of time to make it as efficient as possible. I'm in the middle of making my solar hydronic heated driveway. It's large. Took 11 cement trucks to pour all of it. Over 8000ft of pex over 2" of foam. I haven't been able to buy the solar hydronic panels yet. Due to having to start a new job after 37years. Have everything installed. And as soon as I can afford the panels. Will start it up and will never have to shovel snow again.

[@benjaminhoffman3848]

I live in Wisconsin and I have ways been skeptical that solar could produce enough in winter. How do you deal with the large seasonal fluctuations?

[@danmccoy6164]

My upper roof is where the majority of my panels are. It's steep enough that any snow melts and slides off. The first day the sun shines. Witch is also a better angle for winter. Right now is an awesome time to buy solar equipment. I just bought 390watt panels. For $112 apiece brand new delivered. Im going to go off grid completely. With more than enough solar and batteries. To run my 3400sqft house. Completely without worrying about loads.

[@MrBBPrinter]

I know saving money is important. Have you ever heard of the "Shop Keeper's Rule?" Essentially what you did is "steal" the intellectual property of the contractors. In good faith they gave you the benefit of their knowledge and experience, then you took that (you had no knowledge/experience of your own) i.e., stole it and then used it to benefit yourself. If you had a business and someone did this to you, you would be jumping mad.

[@offgridwanabe]

You are 20 years late to be a guinea pig but you have made the right decision.

[@BornFreeFilms]

I was told the 30% tax credit just allowed you to pay tax on 30% less of the cost or in your case $23,400 less earnings. So, if you had a tax rate of 20%, you would get back only $4,680 dollars of it. I hope that was clear. Everyone commenting on their nice expensive systems makes we wish again that I had known about higher paying jobs when I was young. It seemed indoor construction was the way to go when I was 19. Wages went up for a few years and was ahead of the average college graduate. Then, as time went on, the wages went back down and everyone with cleaner, easier physical jobs, jobs with benefits, etc. started making more AND had many more benefits. I destroyed many things on my body trying to make a top hand. Now, I am just a tired, old, decrepit man who can only dream of having a nice place. lol

[@gmmaupin]

I built a new house three years ago in Ohio. I went with geothermal. I did not dig into the details like Matt. The HVAC contractor drilled five vertical wells. It was hooked up to a water furnace. It heats our water. No dehumidifier added to the system; no issues with humidity so far. There is a natural gas backup heating system. In three years, I have used ZERO gas. The cost was around $20,000. I got the tax credit. I did not have to install a separate water heater. So don't let his cost scare you! We love the system.

[@Mr.Engineer.]

My DIY geothermal ground source heat pump setup cost me around 1000$ Already have the excavator and got 700 meter of pipe for free. Bough a slightly used heat pump for 300$ that was swapped out for a larger unit due to a pool upgrade. Used a few hundred on diesel and a couple hundred on misc such as fittings, a pump and for now a couple of fan convectors. Extra addition expanding the system was 100$ on 2 used stainless water heaters with heat coils in them meant for boats with engine heating to heat the water, but I use the heat pump. Just bought a vacuum solar thermal tube system with 108 tubes 58mm in diameter and 2 meters in length for just 2000$ including a circulation pump. My HRV system was about 1000$. I live in the relative expensive country of Norway, but if you are handy and hunts for good deals you can get these highly efficient systems for quite a bit less than retail. Return on investment is just a couple of years and you can do it yourself 😉

[@waywardgeologist2520]

How much electricity does it consume in winter per month?

[@silentbob19861]

I build vertical geothermal system for my house (1800 ft2) here in the Nordic Europe. Cost me 8k€ to drill the well (including the paperwork) + another 8k€ for the heatpump that runs the underfloor heating and hot water system. I didn't integrate it with the duct system. Overall this system is absolulty awsome. Silent and I have not payed more than 150€/month to run the whole house (at 22C) even through the coldest winter months (-10C...-20C) here. I also insulated the hell out of the house though (30cm EPS under the floor slab, 60cm wool on the attic etc.)

[@Nathan-vt1jz]

I love the concept of heat pumps and long term savings/efficiency benefits. The sticker shock is a big deal though, hopefully the costs go down enough to be adopted more widely. Right now it’s too expensive for lower or middle class families. I’d be interested in the application for large apartments. Does the efficiency scale to that size? In a situation where utilities are part of someone’s fixed rent, it could be a big saver for renters in the long run.

[@TheBooban]

Yeah cause it doesn’t seem worth it for one home. And so complex. If one broke down everything is wrong. For 1 house, a log fire place and opening the window when it gets stuffy seems better.

[@SolomanTiger]

From what I have seen, it does scale pretty well as a lot of the costs are fixed so it gets cheaper per house/apartment as you go up. There are some interesting articles out there where whole neighborhoods share a large heat pump. Think about living next to a data center up north in the winter, now that would be a perfect symbiosis.

[@suzaynnschick158]

Except, if you live near other people, your fireplace causes heart attacks, strokes and asthma. @@TheBooban

[@andrewscheelar9656]

@@TheBooban it's really not, in my opinion of course. I'm an energy advisor. I get clients who are interested in geothermal because for those not in the world that's what people know. But when I run the numbers on cold climate air source heat pumps (cold climate cuz we're in northernish Canada). The upfront costs just don't make sense when you factor in the difference in air source and ground source cost is used to beef up the insulation or buy solar or something that has a better payback Then of course with better insulation you can buy a smaller unit, reducing upfront costs even more. Now, I'm not trying to say it's not worth it, as geothermal gets more cost effective the larger you go, and given geothermal heat pumps can have a higher COP when you have really large buildings that worry alot about their demand charges, having less amps drawn for the same heat can make it worth it, meaning a factory for example could buy a smaller capacitor bank or whatever to reduce demands.

[@agafaba]

@@TheBooban It seems complex, but its not really compared to how the vast majority of homes are heated/cooled with air conditioning and a gas furnace. The air system for outdoor air is because his home is too air tight so it needs something to bring in air instead of relying on gaps and poor insulation like most homes. You dont need an air exchange for geothermal.

[@einarmikkelsenPNW]

Thank you so much for making this video. I love GeoThermal, or ground source heat pumps, as they are called in most other places. Well, if you are living in Iceland then you have GeoThermal. I'll be installing GeoThermal Water to Water for hydronic floor heating. Your video makes it so easy to understand. They have been used in Europe for a long time, so you won't have to be a guinea pig. Ground Source Heat Pumps have been used in residential settings since 1948. Love your channel!

[@vladeckk21]

One thing I saw on the Chateau Diaries was that they had to abandon their older geothermal heat pump in Normandy because after many years (if I got this right) it warmed the ground around the system to the point where it no longer functioned. I’d love to know more about whether this can be an issue.

[@HenryLoenwind]

Yes, this can be an issue for deep geo in an area where the amounts of heating and cooling you need over a year are very different if the system isn't sized properly. Heat (or cold) will accumulate around the point of exchange and if it's too small, the normal exchange with the surrounding area will not be able to keep up. For a shallow geo that's not really an issue because it already exchanges over a large area, and that area is near the surface, where there's more exchange naturally happening due to the changing surface temperatures. Also, the composition of the ground can have a huge impact here. There are rock layers that are better insulators, trapping your waste heat/cold in place. On the other hand, there are porous layers that experience water flow that will carry your waste heat/cold away. On the other hand, with such a layer, you won't get the gain from re-using your summer waste heat in the winter and winter waste cold in the summer. But sizing is the most important factor. The larger the area of exchange is, the more it can exchange heat with the surroundings. Just like with the heat sinks on machines---if they are big enough, they don't need fans. If they are tiny (like the one on your CPU) they need fans to help them dump the heat into a larger area. And underground, you cannot blow the rock around with a fan, so you need to size the heatsink properly.

[@LabGecko]

Also note that most of the castles built around France were made using stone from quarries nearby. There are even towns where most of the houses are remodeled caves where that stone was quarried. A friend lived in those for many years, and my wife and I have stayed in a hotel built in one. But my point is that the issue with insulating rock ​ @HenryLoenwind mentioned is a likely cause of the issue mentioned on that show.

[@testthewest123]

Shouldn't it cool the ground, if you use it for heating the building?

[@matthewnelson5680]

For hot summer climates, it would be heating the ground during the summer and cooling the ground during the winter, so over the year it shouldn’t affect annual average ground temperature much.

[@DennisFahlstrom]

@@HenryLoenwind anyone wishing to go with geo should use a reputable company who will analyze your needs based on your energy bills over a number of years. I live in the Missouri Ozarks which is the southern end of the North America glacier travel so our ground is so rocky we call rocks our state crop. I’ve had my Water Furnace geothermal system for 12 years and it’s been highly efficient and reliable the entire period. So if the rock % in your area is allowed for it should not pose any problem.

[@FeigningAloof]

What a lot of people fail to understand is that making efficient technologies the standard with which we build would have a global impact on our energy grid. That chart of savings concerns too many people. The “life” of the home for many people also includes the next couple of owners. These technologies are incredible and as with most things, making them mainstream drives competition and brings down costs as production can be upscaled and install technique improves. Imagine 15 years in the future… in many of our lifetimes… when every house you see is saving that money, using that much less energy, producing that much more of their own energy. What does the load on the current infrastructure look like? These videos are great and I love them. I just wish people could see past the “cool” factor and look at what this kind of thinking could do for us as a whole.

[@rdross80]

I had a geothermal system in my last home, and loved it. I was paying nearly half on my electric bill compared to everyone else in my area. I recently moved into a home that immediately needed a new HVAC system put in. I greatly wanted to get another geothermal, but the costs have definitely skyrocketed, and they would have had to tear through my concrete driveway to get the piping to my house, which would have added to the cost, so I ended up going with an 18 SEER 5-stage heat pump. While it's a nice system, it's no geothermal, and I can definitely see it in my electric bill. Also, keep in mind, you can get a tax credit on high SEER air-source heat pumps too, but it's capped, unlike geothermal.

[@FJB2020]

Yeah but those people probably paid 10% of what you did for your system. The upfront cost on Geo is insane and the payback isn't always there..

[@rdross80]

@@FJB2020 possibly, I can't say for certain. Back in 2010, I paid just under $22k for the system (it was a vertical loop). It's hard to know how much exactly I saved compared to if I had bought an air-sourced heat pump, but if I go by how much I was paying before, I saved roughly $24k in electric costs over 12 years, so it paid for itself in 11, and still had a lot of life left in it when I moved. I don't know for sure how much it costs now to put one in, as I didn't get an estimate, but I'm sure it's much more expensive, and as of right now, electric costs in my area are still really cheap, so it might not make sense to install one.

[@Rgrinkleson]

There are comparable air source heat pumps these days. You can get a greenspeed extreme which is a 24 seer heat pump.

[@rdross80]

@@Rgrinkleson I agree that these newer heat pumps work great and can still work in sub-zero temps, but they are still quite expensive, and the colder the air temp, the less efficient they become. Whereas, geothermal is always getting that 50 degree temp from the ground, and working at max efficiency.

[@FJB2020]

@@Rgrinkleson EG4 has a 25seer Solar/Grid powered 24kbtu mini split for $2000.

[@ShiroZ31]

My horizontal loop was done with a directional boring machine. Only required one smaller hole to be dug for the loop manifold. Also allows for the loop to be run under your house/out buildings/driveway.

[@spenceralridge4958]

Matt, you are so right - setting goals is the only way you can develop the correct yardstick by which to measure any system. This has been a really interesting series and very helpful to me as we plan our mountain home in North Carolina. Thanks so much for putting such effort into your videos.

[@arlenekufchock1394]

Actually, looking at a European showcase display would help us to discover newer technology and at 1/5 the cost according to the Norwegian commentor. Maybe Matt can fly to Oslo or Vienna to showcase a european system which doesn't cost as much as Americans charge, and see where the cost differences add up?

[@spenceralridge4958]

@@arlenekufchock1394 - I agree. If another market has figured out a better way to accomplish the goal, then we should absolutely investigate. We just have to make sure to adjust for the various governmental subsidies to get a true comparison.

[@julianfbond1234]

We have built an air tight house and our filter in our MRV (or what we call them in the UK MVHR) is so full of crap it's filtered it's scary. We live in a small town, I can't imagine what it would look like if we lived in a city. The best thing I can recommend to anyone building a new home is insulate as much as possible if you can't afford other tech, at least when you do up grade the fabric of the building will make the switch easier.

[@IronmanV5]

You have my curiosity piqued with the newer drilling technologies. The upfront cost of this may be higher, but it will be so worth it when the power lines are down and you are at a comfortable temp running off your solar & storage for a few days.

[@Danothebaldyheid]

I would love to see a video on new drilling technologies. I've been following some of the plasma drilling techniques around the world with some excitement. I'd really like to get a ground source heat pump for our 150 year old home here in Scotland eventually, but need them to reduce in price first. Where I live the bedrock is granite, also, and the potential for an Eavor Loop, or some other proper geothermal system is really exciting!

[@radioflyer9490]

Here in southern Manitoba I have two geothermal units. One in our 3000 square foot 100 year old farm home and another in my 42 X 66 foot shop. Each of them has a separate ground loop of one mile of pipe 7 feet down. The house air duct system had to be renovated to accept double the amount of air flow as the geothermal system can’t create the same temperature as say an electric furnace can. In the shop I already had in floor heating so there the geothermal unit just heats water directly in a 50 gallon tank. From there it is pumped through the floor as needed. Each unit cost me $32,000. Canadian money 🇨🇦 I dug the ground loop trenches and laid the pipe. We are on our fourth year and love it Thanks for sharing your video with us!

[@Jerry-ko9pi]

YES!! I was looking at that sonic setup. That would be very helpful. I am also thinking about having my geothermal system run around my home foundation. I would have them dig around 6' extra to lay down ground loops for the system.

[@YellowRambler]

Last visit to the plumbing store, I heard of person that was upset on the change to the price he was getting back on his excess solar electricity from the utility company, that he bought extra electric water heaters and water heater blanket to make uses of his own excess solar energy.😊💡

[@devonhumphrey9354]

Couple of comments on this excellent and informative video...First, you mentioned that the well installation was $18,550 for a 400' well. That is a great price. Wells cost more in our part of the Texas Hill Country. With the recent prolonged multi-year drought, well drillers are charging up to six figures for a 400-800 foot well here. We built our forever home outside Austin in 1992 and considered a geothermal heating and cooling system because we already needed a well for the water supply. But the technology for homes was too new at that time and our temperatures demand more heating and cooling power than could be provided by heat pumps. Even if the heat pump could cover 75% or more of the need, we could not escape the cost of having a standard AC and heater for the other 25% of the time. We opted for a wood burning stove for heating and super efficiency variable AC for cooling. Added 25KW of solar and three Powerwalls in 2020 and are 95% self-powered. We purchase some power at times to fill the Powerwalls for storm events. We put our money on power infrastructure to protect against rolling blackouts and storm incident outages. Very happy with that. Another thing to factor-in is the rising cost of power. So payoff time for solar will shorten as energy prices rise. Last point is that you stated that the well would not need any maintenance during your lifetime. You look fairly young, so that is a very optimistic gamble. Our well pump has had to be replaced twice in 30 years. The 10 year pump warranty covered the first replacement, but not the second and we had to pay the well service company twice for labor to extract the pump and replace it. $1000 each time. So you can anticipate at least one of those fun and unexpected expenses. Otherwise, loved the information. I watched your Powerwall and solar videos in 2020 prior to installing our system. Was very helpful.

[@YourCapyFrenBigly_3DPipes1999]

How expensive is a typical powerwall? 20K??

[@TheUweRoss]

A closed-loop geothermal well does not have a pump down in the bottom of the well that needs to be extracted when it fails. There is a pump, but it's typically in the mechanical room, and relatively straightforward to replace.

[@devonhumphrey9354]

That’s a good thing, because mechanical devices tend to break. Pumps accidentally run dry and overheat, lightning strikes fry electronics, ice storms freeze lines and cause damage, so pulling and replacing the 400-800 foot submersible pump gets expensive. @@TheUweRoss

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Yeah, the hole they dig for the ground loops is called a well but I’m not sure how much it has in common with a well being dug for water. It’s a very narrow shaft, just wide enough to drop the loops into it and then they drop in a liquid that solidifies around the loops. The only mechanicals for the system sit inside your house (no noisy fans or compressors outside). The fact that nothing is exposed to the weather may have something to do with their extreme longevity.

[@geraar88]

Im living in Belgium and we ordered a geothermal system with 2 drillings of 108m deep for our new house. The drilling costs are about 9000 euros, so it looks a lot cheaper than in the US. This will heat the home with in floor heating and also cool it passively in the summer by sending the heat back to the ground source and running cool water through the heating pipes without using the compressor. It will also deliver all the hot water we need. Total cost including drilling, heat pump and in floor heating is about 32k including tax. We are installing a zehnder erv system ourselves. Material cost about 7k. No dehumidifier though. No one suggested it here, well see if it is required, maybe we can still add it in the technical room

[@The_Lone_Aesir]

I got a 2 well open loop system installed in 2018 and have so far enjoyed it. My main gripe is that the local water table has a fair amount of fine iron sediment requiring the wells to need flushing couple times a year. That said the whole thing cost me $18,500 (13,700 for heatpump and ductwork and 4800 for the wells). The tax credit I got was for 4800 which brought the price down below even the cheapest garbage tier conventional system I had been quoted. 😊

[@Useitorloseit1]

This video answered my questions how Bathroom and Kitchen vents will work in a tight, Net zero home. What about double door entrance. I appreciate shoes off living. But very few homes have a proper boot. Many homes have, shoes off policy with no bench or chairs at the entrance! While watching your videos and planning our own house, Told my wife we need another door at the front entrance, a door between the boot room or traditional entry and the main home.

[@stephenschroeder6567]

Matt, I have been watching for years and highly value your efforts. That said, for those of us who will never have the funding to even own a traditional home, let alone something like you are building, it is fantasy/science fiction. I am truly happy for you and your family. 😊

[@KurtisRader]

Great video. Another channel I love which talks a lot about heat pumps is "Technology Connections". Although, I can't recall that channel talking about geothermal heat pumps so this was a great addition to my knowledge of the technology.

[@Shrike_Inc]

Argument of geothermal breaking even because of federal tax credit is kinda unstable.

[@EarendilStar]

Is it more unstable than the other variables, such as the cost of install and cost of alternatives in your area? Seems to me that no matter what, you need to do the math for your particular scenario and desires. And, yes, that includes the existence of tax credits.

[@Shrike_Inc]

@EarendilStar I would prefer not having taxes for many things. Reality is different. Geothermal is a nice technical idea. Cost of it across the board though - unstable and getting even more so considering labor costs.

[@msk3905]

Matt I applaud you for building a home with a NetZero Goal (must have deep pockets), also, for going with geothermal in new england. When a client asked me does geo thermal make sense in new england my answer is “are you looking at these to save money or looking for a technology to brag about without considering the financials”. I have yet to successfully make a financial case that a client found appealing for geo thermal in new england.

[@upnorthandpersonal]

That is so expensive compared to here in Finland. A geothermal heat pump install typically costs between 10k and 20k Euro, which includes the drilling of the well, the pump, and the installation.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Wow, I wonder how they do it so inexpensively?

[@upnorthandpersonal]

@@aliannarodriguez1581 A healthy competition, heat pumps being commonplace, and not considered something special, and I'm convinced the mark-ups I see in other countries are purely out of greed and because actively working against things like gas boilers which they know (nothing new to learn, nothing to change, status quo).

[@danilooliveira6580]

I imagine it makes sense when you consider its very uncommon in the US. what we need is better state investment in those technologies to make them more accessible, because the more houses that become self sufficient, the cheaper energy will become and less oil dependency we will have. its a "everybody win" situation.

[@Notch8]

Probably because there is a tax credit currently they are marking up installs more.

[@JoeS-NY]

@@aliannarodriguez1581 I suspect it's because US companies are greedy. They also know we're getting tax credits so they raise prices. Gouging is common place in America.

[@gregmacwilliam6487]

I installed a geothermal system a year ago. Pretty happy with it, and definitely saves on heat and cooling costs. I didn’t bother with a desuperheater given that I spend so little on water heating, the ROI on desuperheater assist was pretty low, and certainly didn’t exceed tank maintenance. The one caveat of geothermal is the “geo” portion of it. You’re potentially messing with the ground around your home. Shallow horizontal loops aren’t much of a concern, but deep wells change geology, and can impact the water table. It’s been stressful having well water and a new geothermal well that is deep and has been volatile, leading to water disruptions. I’d recommend geothermal to anyone not on well water.

[@gregmacwilliam6487]

The well stress is obviously geological. I live on the same sheet of rock that Niagara Falls flows over. That comes with local quarries that also add underground variability. Installing the geothermal well went far below our 100” water wells, thus venting the drilling pressure through the water table and pressure-locked multiple water well pumps in my neighborhood. Neighbors were not happy. After the install we figured the volatility was done and moved on, only to have our geothermal well rupture a methane pocket about a year later. The top of the geothermal well was buried, so once again it vented through the water table only to pressure-lock the neighborhood again. More angry neighbors. There was so much pressure it ultimately blew open the 6” of settled dirt capping the thermal well. We’ve since installed a vent over the thermal well to assure it can release pressure in the future, and fingers crossed no more angry neighbors. Still, with the amount of methane the drilling has released, the project probably has a long way to go for being carbon-negative.

[@gregmacwilliam6487]

Also RE: desuperheater. It was a $2-3K add-on in every quote I looked at. My water heater energy usage is only a couple hundred dollars a year. The desuperheater would only provide a partial efficiency gain, and only when the heat pump is running - and for us, that’s only a little over half the year (we have a moderate climate and like fresh air/open windows). Additionally, the desuperheater tank would take up more basement space, and water tanks have a 10-ish year maintenance threshold that wouldn’t make my install payoff. So, the economics just didn’t make sense. When my current water heater goes in the next decade, I’ll probably swap it for a heat-pump water heater unit.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Wow, that’s a twist I’ve never heard before. Will keep it in mind. Hopefully the local installers would become familiar with these kind of specific issues and warn their customers.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

I couldn’t tell from your description, was yours an open loop system?

[@gregmacwilliam6487]

@@aliannarodriguez1581 Closed loop

[@DennisFahlstrom]

Matt, I moved into a large but very well insulated home with good door seals and good dual pane windows in 2005 in the Missouri Ozark’s. We have extremes in both heat/high humidity in the summers and below zero temps in the winter but our rural electric costs are quite reasonable. My winter electric bills for a 4400 sq ft home (2200 in upstairs living space and 2200 in a finished basement) are: summer electric bills the first 7 years in the home ran about $100-$120 a month. My heat pump wasn’t very efficient and didn’t help much in the winter. We used propane to back it up when temps were below freezing which was frequently in the winter. My electric bills in the winter ran between $140 to $180 a month depending on how cold it was. On top of that I would use two tanks of propane to supplement the heat needs which cost another $900 per winter when propane costs were only $1 to $1.30 per gallon if I did a summer pre buy to save money. This averaged out to about $200 per month for the mid fall to mid spring period. In 2012 my old SEER 7 heat pump quit on me in early fall so it needed to be replaced. A more efficient SEER (seasonal energy efficiency rating) 15 heat pump was going to cost $8000 including installation. That cost should be taken off the cost of my upgrade but I haven’t factored it in. If I did it would make the case for an upgrade even more powerful. I had been looking at geo thermal as an upgrade as I live on a small farm and I have a yard with plenty of room for a horizontal ground loop system. I went with a Water Furnace unit which produces all the hot water I need as a by product of creating my heat or cooling needs. It’s an 80 gallon tank which would easily supply all our needs even if the home occupancy were tripled. My summer electric bill went from $140 per month to $55 and my winter bill went from $180 to $60. The best savings went from using $900 worth of propane each winter to using almost none. My only current need for propane is to rarely supply gas to my 20KW Generac emergency generator and a BBQ. I’m still on the same fill of propane I had in 2012 as my current demand is minuscule compared to before going with the geothermal system. My system cost $28k installed and $20k after tax rebates from the feds. My state offers no rebates nor does my electricity coop. My savings since 2012 were enough to totally pay for my geo system in 7 years. The past 4 years the savings have been profit. The system has been highly reliable. The water heater had to be replaced 1 year after installation but there was no cost involved as the 10 year warranty covered everything. Even with very reasonable electricity the decision to go with geothermal in my area was a win win for me. For someone in a higher cost for electricity area (most people) those folks would benefit from it even more. I made the decision to do this expensive change at age 68 when most family and friends thought I would never live long enough to realize any savings. The cost for electricity here has gone up from a very cheap 5 cents per KWH by 50% to 7.5 cents per KWH and propane has gone up by 50% also so factoring those savings into the equation makes my effective payoff period and savings much better. 3 years ago I applied my geo thermal energy savings into getting a 9.25 KW solar system. My electric bills are almost zero now and my net contribution to heating up the environment with my home energy demands is zero. I may not live long enough to see the out of pocket expenses for the solar paid for as I was 75 when I got it and am 78 now but it too is on track to be paid back in a total of 7 years. I think the only home owners who wouldn’t financially benefit from the decisions I made are people who don’t plan to stay long in their home and even those folks should realize some return on the investment in immediate reduction of electric bills and some added resale value of a home with very low heating and cooling costs for the remainder of the life expectancy of their system. 50 years for the geothermal and 35-40 years for the solar. Folks who are nay sayers should consider these two thoughts: 1. Your electric rates will almost certainly always go up ..often by more than the inflation rate and 2. You can put yourself in control of these costs or leave them up to your utility companies.

[@NickRoman]

I haven't done any research, but I thought of doing something like this just on principal. It's cool to see that it is actively being commercialized.

[@cia212]

If your goals are net zero energy and you have corporate sponsors, you can justify just about any cost.

[@darbyohara]

lol right. Only rich people can afford to do these feel good projects

[@thomaswomack3888]

Matt, my father built a passive solar assisted house as his retirement home almost 30 years ago and used an open loop heat pump fed by well water and it is a remarkably efficient system, though I am sure a closed loop system would be much more efficient energy wise, it was just too expensive at the time and dad couldnt justify the additional expense of drilling a second well. I live in the house now and our electric bill for the same square footage runs about 1/2 to 2/3 what neighbors of ours pay for their conventional heat pump and conventional construction. I feel blessed. Yes upkeep costs of the system are higher and when something breaks its freakishly expensive, but fortunately that does not happen often. We are now going solar to help with our long term power costs which have begun to skyrocket here in VA I am hoping that we picked the right time to do that. I'd appreciate your comments since you guys are 'all in' on going green

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Do you find yourself in a community where there is interest and knowledge about greener and more efficient systems? That helps tremendously.

[@thomaswomack3888]

@@aliannarodriguez1581It certainly wasn't that way at the time dad designed and built the house. He was way ahead of the curve. People in this area are just now I think beginning to see the benefits of being greener, mostly because electric rates have gone up about 50% in the last 5 years.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Ouch!

[@pavelkostov5238]

(The) Way to go Matt! Currently finalizing my GSHP set up, so a big fan. I’ve chosen to go with wet system with underfloor heating on both floors, sort of to create a thermal battery out of the concrete as a bonus to the efficiency. Curious to see your running costs, especially with the help of the solar system. So keep us posted pls.

[@yawson06]

Hi, will you be pairing yours with solar as well?

[@pavelkostov5238]

@@yawson06 Hello. Yes, as 9kw system already installed.

[@junkerzn7312]

One thing I would note is that how far you need to go on efficiency depends a lot on how much solar you can throw together. With enough solar, you can go with far cheaper and somewhat less efficient systems for pretty much all the other components of the home. Lets look at stand-alone energy use for various components: * 2kW and 2kWh/day - Heat pump water heater (without any pre-heat or backup thermals) * 5kW and 10-50 kWh/day - A/C (summer) or heat-pump furnace (winter) * < 1kW and 1-2kWh/day - Fridge * 5-10kW peak and 2-4kWh/day - stovetop, oven, etc * 1kW and 7kWh/day - Insundries (lighting, media, other stuff) Now consider a 10 kWp (p=nameplate) solar panel system. This will produce around 30kWh/day in the winter and 50-60 kWh/day in the summer. If you add up all the energy consumption, a 10kWp solar system just about covers it. Not perfectly, but pretty well. Push it up to 15kWp or higher and you are overflowing with energy. So what's the catch? The catch is, energy storage. Being able to run A/C or furnace overnight under good conditions without using the grid means batteries, around 60 kWh worth of battery storage. And those loads requires significant inverter capability... one or two 18kW inverters (for which three or four major brands are now available). 60kWh in battery storage is roughly $1500/5kWh = $18K, and 2 x hybrid inverters in total can run $8K to $14K or so. Call it $32000 not including the panels (or microinverters). I am assuming that a person is going to have panels anyway in a home like this. -- So if you can save that much by going with cheaper component systems... a regular zoned mini-split, NO geothermal ground loop, a regular heat pump water heater without any pre-heating, no smart panel, no heat-recovery fresh air recirculation system (no sealed house), etc. IF you can save at least that much, then it is far, FAR better to go with the solar, inverter and battery system because of two added bonuses: (1) You get almost indefinite off-grid capability (and 100% off-grid in emergencies when care is taken). And (2) Far easier maintenance. Fewer things can go wrong, and cheaper components are cheaper to fix once out of warranty. That is my council. -Matt

[@MissingRemote]

Can you share the source for the numbers comparing geothermal and air source heat pumps? The gap between them seems larger than I expected given the data I've seen on the topic which outlines the efficiency difference between the two systems. Also, given your own $1,000 difference number, there's an 18.6 year wait to make up the gap in cost ($54,600-$36,000=$18,600). I'm confused. Maybe I'm missing something.

[@jagx234]

I think the counting a credit makes the math off. A credit isn't a rebate. It'll come out ahead at some point, but the cost isn't offset so much as laid out, it seems.

[@MissingRemote]

@@jagx234 I don't have an issue with the credit. It's an immediate enough payment to make a difference. Having thought about more, I don't think Matt ever "breaks even". If he put that $18,600 in an interest bearing account, he's always losing against the ASHP. If he financed the $ in the mortgage, same result. If he spent that $ on PV instead, he could have used it to offset the electrical cost difference, and made money.

[@hyacinthwilliams6079]

As someone who wants to become an architect who combines efficiency and a higher standard of living that can be made available to anyone im very interested with this kind of tech and how it can be combined with vernacular architecture. Looking forward to seeing how your experience pans out in the real world so that i can perhaps make use of what works in my own projects. Keep up the good work!

[@rsecord]

Well it's nice to see the younger generation catching up to us old wise folks... I have had a geo-thermal closed loop heat pump for 25 years. Due to building methods back then the building was not as air tight as I have built homes recently. It really is the best way to go. I actually disabled the backup electric heater due to the cost of running it. Bur now a days since my fire required remodel my tightened up house even with the electric backup on keeps temp much better. I have long since recouped my cost of the 2 375 deep wells and premium on the system. Your going to love yours. Only thing is, it never blasts out that hot air cause it will maintain a mord constant temp, especially with zoning if you set that up. Hopefully they balanced you system well so you don't get cold rooms in the winter and hot ones in the summer.

[@WaterFurnace]

Great feedback

[@94nolo]

Future proofing your modern forever home is so neat. Who knows how much electricity prices shall increase. The video ad rev will pay for it. :) congrats to you and your wife!

[@ratdoto2148]

Even without rebates and savings on bills, when you consider the whole point of a home is to create a comfortable stress free living space, $100,000 for these systems is a good price.

[@BogdanDumiter]

In some places in Europe you could bring the same if not even more technologically advanced systems into your home, for even a lower price as it is wider spread and trained technicians/ installer numbers keep growing.

[@ratdoto2148]

@@BogdanDumiter Yes of course, $100,000 is the price in a country that has only really just started to scale up the installation of these products. It will only get cheaper with the way the industry and the policy is going.

[@UndecidedMF]

I didn't really touch on the comfort/quality of life angle. It's very subjective, but you're absolutely correct.

[@sareinhart]

Hello! We have a very similar system. We have a deep well pump and dump geothermal. Overall, I agree with what you said. Our system is approx 25 years old. We replaced the heat pump about 4 years ago because we were concerned about the face our unit was obsolete and the manufacturer out of business. One thing to consider. We have had to replace our well pump twice in 10 years. It’s expensive. About $8000 each time. It’s so expensive because we need a special larger well pump. Our well pump provides hvac and domestic water. Plumbers say on average in our situation 9-ish years is the best we can hope to do.

[@zodiacfml]

I knew it. thanks!

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

Well you’ve just made up my mind in case I ever have to decide between an open loop and closed loop system. Closed loop all the way then.

[@patrickwburnett]

I'd be interested in the video about sonic drilling

[@UndecidedMF]

👍

[@bausHuck]

I've built a new home in Melbourne Australia. I went with Rinnai GeoFlo geothermal system. The drilling guys said they only got 30 meters deep, so I hope it still performs well. The system cost AUD$48k installed. It's a big cost. But now I have geothermal in the middle of a suburb in a full electric home. The system also sends excess heat to the hot water tank, so there is potential for savings there too. The system should cost 25% of a typical AC. That is not even including the heating that is typically gas in Melbourne. I wish I could have gone for an ERV.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

That does seem pretty shallow. But maybe your soil is more heat conductive.

[@Daegis88]

Thank you for making this video. I’m really impressed with the solution you picked out - and I’m hoping to copy the key concepts one day. I may do the ground loop instead of the deep geothermal well because I have more space. I really like that you are able to use the extra heat from the geothermal system as hot water. That is so smart. Thanks again for all the effort you put in here and sharing it with the community. One big problem is finding contractors that understand this technology and can implement what you’ve described.

[@aliannarodriguez1581]

That is extremely important.

[@jannepeltonen2036]

The first time I heard about heat pumps was in 1997 when in high school and befriended someone whose parents were long time environmental activists and whose uncle was a physics professor at at technical university. They had a heat pump system in their house, designed and built by his uncle in early 1980s. It was really very efficient, using plain old radiators in rooms and a heating water circulation system. Although the fact it was DIY from top to bottom meant that it was a lot less dependable than the commercial solutions that became available later. Although help was always near at hand :-P

[@machickman4041]

Matt, thank you for this great video. I am wanting to build my wife and I’s own house and planned to do a post frame building. Slab on grade and was going to do radiant heat but didn’t know how I would supply the cool air for the summer time. I also plan to make this home as efficient and tight as possible. I would need an erv and dehumidifier. I don’t know you could run geothermal for a slab on grade but now I do. My parents have had geothermal for years and they love it. This might be the route to go.

[@remersone]

Hi Matt , We are designing A Passive house in New Zealand our forever home, and are having pretty much the same conversations regarding Heating /cooling / water heating , so thanks for your efforts and time, its a minefield of tech to go through, and your helping .Rgds Glenn

[@garymunson2493]

As long as you have sufficient Real Estate for enough solar, seems like that an a normal heat pump would be much more cost effective and long term reliable. Even better, with enough solar, old school resistive heat strips. When energy becomes free, the script flips.

[@adus123]

You need a lot of solar for that and free energy 😂 maybe one day but I wouldn't bank on it being any time soon why would any utilities give you free energy with out makeing any money. He has invested for the long term over 30/ 40 years or more. It will pay off in the end.

[@crappymeal]

​@@adus123near free. say for example wind, solar or fusion keep dropping in production price, companies will be competing to get the most customers and will drop their prices as and when they can based on the production costs

[@HonoredMule]

Don't forget the opportunity cost you pay by not having that solar power covering other energy consumption needs. Offsets don't count when they already apply independently. Also ground source heat pumps are the most reliable ones. As long as the underground loop isn't compromised (it almost never is), maintenance costs that do come up will roughly equal those for other sources.

[@garymunson2493]

I'm referring to adding enough panels to your house to zero out your energy bill. Here in Reno NV, my 10KW system does that using a heat pump. Starting from scratch it would likely be cheaper to increase the number of panels and heat with resistance heat, the equipment is so much cheaper. Another savings is you would get a higher SEER using a straight AC system (they can be had with better ratings than heat pumps being designed for 100% cooling use) rather than a compromise that includes heat. That simpler install would most likely last much longer, too@@adus123

[@TheJLMDT]

The issue is that in winter, you’re stuck with 1 less sunlight, and 2 less efficient heat pumping. So having in ground coils has a huge benefit when solar is less effective in winter.

[@markdavis8888]

I spent about $500 for some "Ditra-heat" in-floor electric heating with a black slate tile in my bathroom. I love black slate in the bathroom because it soaks up water and is never slippery. It feels good on my feet. The Ditra-heat was so easy it was fun. BTW: Here in Bend, Oregon we have an ordinance that requires an energy score for listing a house for sale. Its some kind of DOE program.

[@mikefochtman7164]

Great exploration of some new tech. I've been thinking about an ERV myself as a 'backfit' because I'm concerned about indoor air quality. Since you mention hot-water heating, you might look into a shower heat recovery heat exchanger. A GFX (Gravity Film Effect Heat-exchanger) can recover energy from showers by using drain water to preheat incoming water. Not suitable for baths, or washing machines, but with a large family, I found I never ran out of hotwater despite several teenagers taking showers often lol. Of course, YMMV.

[@dakota4766]

going to look into that... interesting idea

[@Trumpetdude213]

I always appreciate your videos! I'll definitely be looking into a geothermal pump for whenever I get my forever home

[@beyondfossil]

Fascinating stuff. But $18,550 to drill a 400ft vertical hole (5:01) has probably got everyone's jaw dropping. If someone can figure out how to do this at like ¼ the cost (or less) will likely make a fortune! Because the electrification of transportation (EVs) is one thing, but the full electrification of homes is going to be a whole 'nother level especially in colder climates. The grid will be under major stress in a snowstorm since *everyone* has their furnace cranked on max pulling near the 100A limit on the main breaker. Geothermal ground heat exchange will take a lot of edge off of that power requirement. May become critical in certain areas like in Canada wintertime. Basically, all new construction homes could have a geothermal heat exchanger per regulation if drilling costs come down first. The government can subsidize retrofits for existing homes (based on home income) since that will take loads off the grid.

[@vBrolin]

If this becomes more common in that local market, it will go down for sure. Drilling 600 ft in Sweden where this is very common costs about $5000.

[@gizmobowen]

Really wanted it when I had my home built 16 years ago. The two main features that made me choose a normal air to air system were the cost and the risk associated with running a water line to where the HVAC system is in my home. The cost was pretty well covered by Matt. The power where I live is pretty inexpensive so the ROI was very long and I don't remember there being federal incentives at the time. In my home the HVAC system is located in the attic. A friend told me about the ground source system they had at his church that also has the HVAC in the attic, which sprung a leak. As you might guess, the damage caused by the water was substantial. So that's why I didn't choose it. Every time my heat pump turns on, it's right by my bedroom and makes a bunch of noise. Very often I wish I had a ground source unit, but it just wasn't in the cards for me. Given different conditions, I definitely would have selected it. The thermodynamics are just so much better.

[@taylorsutherland6973]

Here in northern Maine, i built my own home in 2009. Took me a year, materials only cost was what you paid for your HVAC. I wanted lowest operating cost, and focused on insulation. I installed radiant heat (in slab) and a gasification wood boiler. Total cost to operate HVAC annually is less than $1000. Similar 3200 square foot homes in the area are well over $5000 annually, even those with heat pumps. Heat pump water heater used in the summer cools and dehumidification, wood boiler and 115 gallon indirect water heater used in the winter, which is 6 months here. Electricity is $0.27 kWh, and wood is $225 a cord.

[@km5lb11]

The electric co-op I used in the 1980s in Oklahoma was pushing ground source heat pumps for its customers and even helping with the cost.

[@vopall]

On top of all the potential savings down the line, you have the benefit of unique first-hand experience for YT content. Thanks for the vid and best of luck with the rest of the house build!

[@TeddyABear]

I love the fact that you chose the brand water furnace and especially the series 7! I personally think that brand is the best geo unit on the market!!

[@Zmann966]

Wow... there's so many brilliant ways to move thermal energy around to accomplish a ton of different things these days. Some very smart engineers out there!