Is Alpaca Wool a Merino Killer? w/ John Gage (Appalachian Gear Company)

[@rodmorrison6644]

Raise a herd alpaca, processing our own fleece, and vertically integrating our very small operation, this interview was a treasure trove of information. Thank you!!

[@tom70]

What a great episode. John Gage provided a lot of information and made the time fly. I bought an AGC hoodie for a family member and she loves it. I like the format and your open-ended questions. Keep them coming.

[@CookingMike]

Johns super passionate and he's converting me. I've becoming more into textiles since I've gotten into backpacking, and my Appalachian neck tube is my favorite price of gear. Another great episode .

[@ellennordal5859]

Blending alpaca and merino wool combines some advantages of both. 100% alpaca knitted garments often stretch out of shape but blending the fiber with wool before spinning adds the wonderful elastic qualities that help knitted garments keep their shape. Adding silk fiber to alpaca also helps to decrease stretching and adds strength as well. Another warm strong fiber that I rarely see mentioned is mohair. Adding mohair (best to use kid mohair as adult mohair is usually scratchy) adds a great deal of strength and warmth.

[@nickwoo2]

Im glad they send out patches more companies need to embrace that things wear out but are still usable if patched.

[@donniebel]

For me alpaca has been a preferred choice over merino due to holding less moisture for a cool season hoodie.

[@justinw1765]

It's funny, but back in 2012/2013 era, I would sometimes talk about alpaca and it's benefits on backpackinglight and I was either ignored or made fun of most of the time, and now it seems like alpaca is finally catching on. Overall, a good talk, but some helpful and/or corrective points: It is true that alpaca fibers have shorter, less protruding, and farther apart placed scales. Yet, keep in mind that is has enough of a scale structure that you can felt alpaca in a somewhat similar way as sheep's wool. You can't felt truly and fully smooth fibers, whether natural or synthetic. But those scales have an insulative function, as they provide a means/structure to slow down and still air convection, besides the spaces between the fibers themselves. When wicking polyester first came out, it was indeed a chemical finish, but the technology has largely moved away from chemical finishes and on to specially shaped fibers that increase surface area and which induce capillary action. One of the first brands to come out with this, was Coolmax. Coolmax is old hat now, and many manufacturers are using shaped fibers rather than chemical finishes to get wicking in polyester (and now in nylon as well increasingly). Shaped fiber wicking is more or less permanent. It is possible for these to get so gunked up with skin oils and debris, as to *reduce* (not completely stop) the wicking effectiveness, but you can give it a good degreasing wash (high pH plus hot water) to restore very high wicking properties. "Breathability". Breathability is primarily the function of the weave and knit pattern and how much space or "interstice area" are between the yarns. If you have something that is very tightly woven vs something that is loosely knitted, the latter will be much, much more breathable no matter what materials you are using for both. Basically, if you can blow a lot of air through it (measured typically by CFM), it will be highly breathable. Natural fibers sometimes get a reputation for being "more breathable" I guess, because they tend to directly absorb and release moisture vapor through the fibers, as well as whatever direct breathability there is between the yarn insterstices. Honestly, greater CFM will trump the former anytime of day. I have these thin, loosely woven nylon ("under") shirts made by 32* Heat brand that are *extremely* breathable and it is the most comfortable fabric I can find for the hot, humid summers of the area that I live in. They wick, don't smell too bad, dry fast but do absorb some moisture and so are more comfortable, and nylon is both more thermally conductive and more IR transmissive (allows more IR/thermal energy to pass through without being absorbed and/or reflected) than most other fabrics, which make it cooler to the touch and allows heat to pass through it more efficiently. Wool, alpaca, and other animal protein fiber based fibers and fabrics aren't truly antimicrobial. Rather the surface electrical charge is different from synthetics and attracts different kind of bacteria/microbes. Essentially synthetics are favored by the stink producing bacteria whereas sheep's wool, alpaca, etc doesn't facilitate the growth of those particular microbes. But if you look at them under a microscope, there is plenty of bacteria. I liken it it a bit to a gut used to a high fiber, more whole food plant based diet vs. a diet high in processed food, lots of refined sugars, carbs, and/or lots of meat--you get very different microbiomes between the two, with the former being more balanced and varied and with the latter favoring more opportunistic (which can more easily become pathogenic--like candida albicans yeast) and odoriferous microbes. But with your skin and its microbiome. This is meant to be more metaphorical than literal. In synthetics, interestingly, there is a direct correlation between the moisture regain and how much they attract/facilitate those stink/odor producing bacteria (this has to do with electrical charge as well). The ones with the least moisture regain, facilitate those odor producing bacteria the most, and the ones with the highest moisture regain, the least. The list of synthetics from least moisture regain/most odor facilitating to most moisture regain/least odor facilitating is polypropylene, polyester, acrylic, and nylon. Nylon is unique among synthetics in that it is neither truly hydrophobic nor hydrophillic overtly. Nylon's moisture regain ranges from 3.5 to 5% (there are different nylon polyamide formulations, like nylon 6, nylon 6.6, Robic, etc). Compare that to .4% of polyester and almost zero of polypropylene on one hand, and cotton's 8.5% on the other hand. This is why silnylon tents and tarps will start to sag and stretch some in very humidity weather. Because it has absorbed an appreciable amount of moisture into its actual material and has expanded/swelled (and which reduces its tensile and some other strengths). Odor treatments on synthetics vary widely, but some of them like Polygiene bond them to the surface of the fiber (in those divets/dimples) during the dyeing process. This makes them long lasting/durable, but not truly permanent. I think Polygiene is rated conservatively for 100 washes. You can recreate a Polygiene like treatment with synthetics by taking some distilled water, putting some salt in it, then take a 9 volt battery and connect either two silver wires to the two poles, or two copper wires to the two poles, and putting the wires in the warmed water for a few hours or so. This process creates either silver chloride ions, or copper chloride ions. Then, you put that water-ion suspension in while you dye the fabrics with dye specifically made for synthetics. It probably won't bond quite as well as the industry process, but you will get some bonding and thus anti odor properties. After it wears off, give the clothing a good degreasing, then washing, and then *very good rinse,* and then do the above process over. No need to throw the garment away. (This can't be done with polypropylene unfortunately--surface energy is too low to accept dye this way). Some general points not directly related to the talk: I would love to see an Alpaca version of the NuYarn tech, where you take a nylon core fiber, and wrap the alpaca (instead of sheep's wool) fibers around it to get a yarn. This would up the durability of alpaca, especially if you still blend it with some tencel or the like. For warm to hot weather, I love flax linen and polyester blends (or hemp and polyester blends) or nylon-tencel/tencel-nylon blends. Hopefully eventually they can make UHMWPE fibers small enough for regular clothing wear, because this material is as thermally conductive as some metals (very noticeable if you have ever worn all or mostly UHMWPE fiber based, protective gloves). If you made the fibers wicking via fiber shape, it would be great to blend with flax linen, hemp, or tencel. Besides being actively cooling and fast drying, such a garment/material would be extremely durable due to the ridiculously high strengths of this material. Btw, insulation is primiarly a feature of fiber size. The finer the fibers, the more air they can potentially still/slow down/trap within a given space. The secondary or second most important factor is the material, and the third is how hollow or not the fiber is. If two garments are made almost exactly the same, with same size fibers and yarns, etc, and one is merino and one alpaca, then yes, the alpaca will be slightly warmer because of the greater void pockets in the fibers. Some years back, Polartec made a specialized fleece using hollow polyester yarns and claimed that it had 20% more thermal insulation capacity per same density, thickness, etc than their regular fleece. This sounds/seems fairly accurate. Do NOT believe the 3 to 10 times (i.e. 300 to 1000%) claims of marketing out there. A materials and fiber nerd.

[@nater-u1n]

Many good points! There's a lot of hype around fibers and how one is better than the other and stuff like 8 times warmer without any reference to how the numbers were obtained etc. Obviously there are tons of variables, just as you mentioned but also knitting choices (ply, gauge), felting and so on. I am curious what your thoughts are on alpaca vs cashmere? Pashmina goats' habitat is naturally much colder than the natural environment (Mongolian and Himalayan cold can be ridiculously cold when compared to Peru!), so I'm tempted to think Cashmere insulates better but then it would Qiviut is warmer with that logic which is something I can contradict as musk oxen are much more compactly built and much thicker coats and metabolism that adapts. Given these I have to think Cashmere is the warmest, but curious to hear what you have to say

[@justinw1765]

@@nater-u1n I think cashmere is pretty similar to alpaca and merino if the micron count is similar. When finer, it can be warmer in the right knit or weave. I see conflicting information about its hollowness. If it is hollow across a range of micron count, then it will be a bit warmer than merino. I tend to be skeptical of online claims. For example, I just found out from more scientific sources that alpaca fibers are only semi hollow when above 20 microns, and only quite hollow when much larger (guard hairs). Yet, almost every website talks about how alpaca fibers are hollow no question asked. The source btw is, Alpaca Myths: Or Are They? A lot of different variables factor in to how and why an animal develops its fur or wool the way it happens. The climate matters, the breeding matters (if that is a factor i.e. domesticated animals), how large or small the animal, how much fat they tend to have, their metabolism, their diet, etc. A common trend among Arctic climate type mammals is there is a larger hollow fiber guard hairs, and soft, fine, downy hairs underneath that are solid. Usually there is a decent amount of fat too. (Even in humans, you see some interesting trends along this line. People of purely far northern Eurasian ancestry for example (Highland Scots, Scandinavians, Baltic folks, norther Russian, etc), tend to have finer body and head hair than people of sub tropical and tropical peoples ancestry.) As far as mammals go, I would say that well bred angora rabbits have the warmest wool. This is because the fibers tend to be both quite fine and truly hollow. But it is very hard to turn pure angora rabbit wool into yarn etc. It is almost always mixed with other stronger and/or more elastic fibers. You can also use it as a loose fill, but it tends to mat unlike goose down. Nothing natural is warmer than high quality goose, or Eider down as a fill on a weight basis. But it is also expensive. Kapok fiber and angora rabbit wool come somewhat close, but kapok fiber cannot be compressed nearly as much as down can-hence its bulky. Good for things like mittens, hats, booties, vests, small backpacking pillows, etc, but not so good for things like pants, jackets, quilts, or sleeping bags.

[@janmariolle]

Thanks for the great interview. I enjoy Appalachian Gear products and appreciate learning why they are working so well.

[@robreynolds8759]

This is very informative… thanks for putting this out…I would like to see a follow up with multiple real user use cases, anyone that has really lived / thru hiked in the material

[@haroldbleemel8537]

Well now I know why my new alpaca shirt pokes me. Good to know that it will get better. :)

[@tomsitzman3952]

Great interview, John is the go to guy. I'm sitting watching on my laptop wearing my alpaca sock with I never take off and my Appalachian hoodie. I have found a good match up for my layered system. The base layer is the new poly pro fishnet undershirt from Brynje Norway, and is available in Canada and the USA, my mid layer is light weight or mid weight Merino or alpaca wool. In colder weather an alpaca hoodie or a combination of the three all under a wind jacket is adequate for physical work well below zero F , -25 C. An Alpaca and merino nest together without clinging because the fiber scales do not cling to each other.

[@matthewdennis1739]

Was super sad to see AGC go out of business, I bought a ton of their stuff over the years. The fleece hoodie and neck gaiter are my favorites. My layering system is very similar to yours. Aclima Woolnets as a base, then I usually double up my midlayer with my Woolpower 400 vest and ACG All-Paca Hoodie, then my Dachstein Sweater as the outer layer. Honestly, if I'm moving that's good WELL below zero F.

[@wildchild795]

Might be better if you just let him talk a bit more and asking less guided questions. He’s obviously very passionate and knowledgeable, I’m sure he is capable of discussing everything without having his hand held

[@Alianderfarm]

Perfect informative video on Alpaca hair for clothing.

[@bingauxmaxwell5116]

I am aware of plastics in the body due to water damages . Of more concern to me is the devastating damages to us all due to wholesale medications dumped for decades in the toilets of every nursing home, hospital and pharmacy. This also affected all animals.

[@bingauxmaxwell5116]

I don't know how to use Instagram and it is quite controversial. I don't know who to follow as it is not evident to me... Justin who?

[@frstesiste7670]

It would be interesting to hear John's opinion about (merino) wool-silk combinations. Seems like its a popular blend at the moment.

[@Tortomus]

John is awesome super down to earth and knowledgeable

[@djpaintles]

VERY interesting!

[@djpaintles]

FWIW I just ordered a hoodie. I enjoyed and appreciated your description of the difference between Merino and Alpaca

[@RAMtrails]

I love Appalachian Gear Co. I have 4 of their hoodies 😅

[@BigDawgCAM]

Dang, so you’re the reason they’re always sold out!!!

[@billpetersen298]

Hi Ram, I was just at their website. They have the more expensive %100 hoodie. But not the cheaper 80/20 one. Do you have both? It seems the 80/20 is more durable and suitable for backpacking. (In the weter n west coast) Is there any advantage for the more expensive one? Is it significantly warmer?

[@niconicoo5661]

Will alpaka keep you warm if it gets drenched

[@marcusgrandon3640]

I own both and both are really good. While I love both, I find merino to be better in most ways, but there are different grades of merino wth some much better than others. Most of my merino is soft, comfy and warm-much warmer than alpaca for sure. Alpaca is warm and not itchy at all. Merino seems warmer. Possum blends of merino are amazing. Also, merinos tend not to stretch, while Alpaca stretches quite a bit, too much really. Also, alpaca seems to wear out faster. But if you get bad merino it will be itchy. I have a lot of alpaca and it is much more casual due to the stretching. Merino holds up better and looks fine even in fancy restaurants cuz it seems dressier. I own lots of gear from AGC, and unfortunately it now seems out of business. Personally, I prefer the warmth and versatility of merinos more than alpaca, but I'm certainly not getting rid of my Alpaca. I'll wear it until it's in rags and same for my merinos. And I'm talking about sweaters here, not base layers. I prefer synthetics for base-layers. Merino base layer is the worst for me, and I don't have any alpaca base layers. Synthetics all the way for me in terms of base layers.

[@dc5131]

heavy winter jackets

[@goride365]

I just ordered the woman's medium(im a man) after comparing reviews of a couple guys going with the women's due to availability. Cant wait to live in it!

[@jerrybobteasdale]

Good one.

[@rockytopwrangler2069]

Any affiliation to PAKA Co . ?? . Showing lots of internet adv.

[@johnnyolson258]

Man watching this just makes it more depressing that they went out of business :(

[@kingofthekludge]

Too bad the company doesn't exist anymore!

[@dimi7055]

In a super hot climate cotton will outperform anything because of the ability to keep you wet for a very long time (way longer than alpaca and also breathes even better). In a very wet climate polyester does work better regardless of what these guys say, fleece never feels like a plastic bag and saying it does is just marketing biased. Also some people saying polyester doesn't breath is completely false! It can breath just as good as anything because breathing has everything to do with the weave and nothing to do with the fiber. When it comes to warmth to weight fleece outperforms all wool, warmth has everything to do with loft and nothing to do with the fiber either. Merino and alpaca are better for one thing and that is odor control, everything else polyester, nylon and cotton will do better. Don't buy into the hype! I have tried all of these fabrics like an autist!

[@genkiferal7178]

I used to sleep in the cutest fleece PJs and would wake up in a piddle. Fleece makes me sweat horribly - does not breathe at all.

[@dimi7055]

@@genkiferal7178 Such nonsense.. if you put your mouth to it and can blow through it without a ton of resistance that is the definition of a garment that breaths. You waking up in a sweat is just the overwhelming warmth and has NOTHING to do with air permeability.

[@justinw1765]

@@dimi7055 Many people unfortunately get convinced by marketing, but yes, you're right, breathability (technically called air porosity) is primarily a function of CFM levels i.e. how much volume of air can convect through it during a given time period. Another thing is that people sometimes mistake wicking for breathability. Something like fleece doesn't wick well (liquid moisture tends to tranfer through via diffusion and/or through evaporation), whereas some natural materials are more absorbent and wickiing-meaning it will pull through and spread the liquid moisture/water over a wider surface area. (Interestingly, unlike the marketing would have you believe, neither wool nor alpaca do this particularly well, because the surface of the fibers are hydrophobic. What happens with these, is that they tend to absorb a lot of moisture in a vapor-gaseous state and then release it later, along with whatever moisture diffuses through the interstice/pore space of the fibers. It doesn't "wick" in any conventional sense. This can be tested rather easily. Get a dropper and drop some water on the surface of wool or alpaca. It will just sit there or sort of fall through [if its very open weave or knit] but what it doesn't do is spread across the surface like it does with cotton, tencel, linen, or synthetics made to wick well. Wicking is somewhat overrated though. It does speed up drying time a bit because it puts the moisture over a larger surface area, but that only works for localized, low sweating, and not heavy, sweating out the fabric or getting soaked via rain, falling in a creek, etc). It is true that generally natural materials, with some exceptions like scaled and larger sized sheep's wool fibers, tend to feel better on the skin. The makers of Dri Release found this in their research studies with cotton vs polyester, which is part of the reason why they wrapped some cotton around the outside of the polyester fibers. The other was to induce better wicking, as this was before specially shaped, capillary inducing synthetic fibers.

[@whewdoggie1]

​@dimi7055 Regardless of what causes it, I have the same issues with synthetic fleece/materials. Whether jackets, shirts, or socks, I become uncomfortably wet. In wool I am significantly more comfortable, cotton also.

[@AaronVets]

Can we stop exploiting animals for our benefit please, there are plenty of amazing synthetic fabrics available these days. SMDH. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@mirjahmlinen2698]

Use of sheep and alpaca wool is NOT exploitation! You should study the subject more!

[@higler.]

@@mirjahmlinen2698 Yeah every farmer loves their animals and totally don't see them as a means for profit. Gimme a break, you can believe the lie, but it doesn't make it reality.

[@mirjahmlinen2698]

@@higler., what are you trying to say? Does not make sense to me.

[@AaronVets]

@@higler.Thank you for understanding. When we have amazing synthetics available like PolarTec Alpha there really is no excuse to be using animals in the way we do! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@higler.]

@@AaronVets Be careful, someone with literal wool over their eyes will start crying about microplastics, but only when they need to defend their use of wool. Big virtue signaling from that crowd when it comes to that issue.

[@ak47bobbarke]

I never knew alpaca 🦙 is so hard to work with