Is Anti-Zionism the new Anti-Semitism?

Zionism, or the belief in the Jewish right to self-determination in the land of Israel, has been the topic of contentious global debate for decades. And while the United States government is making moves to strengthen its special relationship with Israel, such as relocating the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, scrutiny of Israel and its government looms large in American politics. Is it possible to distinguish anti-Zionism from anti-Semitism?
For the Motion:
Bret Stephens - Op-Ed Columnist, New York Times
Einat Wilf - Former Member, Israeli Parliament
Against the Motion:
Peter Beinart - Journalist & Author, “The Crisis of Zionism”
Yousef Munayyer - Executive Director, US Campaign for Palestinian Rights
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[@Rammbock]

Literally every single argument the proponents brought forward was a false equivalence, strawman or outright irrelevant.

[@williamrappaport9203]

My argument that Israel should exist as a Jewish state is that every people should have a place staked out on this earth that is for them-Jew, Arab, Kurd, whomever. Every people should have a state. It doesn’t have to be a big country-Egypt is 50 times larger than Israel, and Egypt is only one of twenty or more Arab states. There are lots of Arabs, so ther can be lots of Arab countries. I say let’s add even one more-but I want one little sliver of land for my people too.

[@ajarnwordsmith628]

Whenever someone commences an argument with the word 'literally', I know my interlocutor's arguments have no merit.

[@fredgassit5418]

Those screaming women are so irritating

[@wajnerw]

yeah. who are those morons?

[@vinceellis673]

yes! wrong tone, I wish Donvan had told them to stop

[@SikanderG]

This turned into a debate about Zionism itself. But it was originally about whether anti-Zionism is antisemitism, not about whether Zionism is correct. Surely no one really believes that anti-Zionism is inherently antisemitic.

[@Orbitwashere]

ofc.

[@Orbitwashere]

anti-zionism is anti-semetic bc ur denying the jewish people a right to statehood or at least arguing against their right.

[@octavioust.talium9110]

18:00 Did she just base her arguement on "What if.."?

[@victoriamarks5441]

I think her arguements are based so much in feeling that she must base her arguments on what if? Including in another debate that she is in with the same exact topic on intelligence squared. I suggest you watch that debate as well.

[@octavioust.talium9110]

@@victoriamarks5441 Watched that one first.

[@think4358]

Full of bullshit emotions. When there’s no concrete evidence it’s always “WHAT IF”. Scare Tactics

[@theklorg305]

You really lack basic comprehension, don't you?

[@demaskus2016]

@@theklorg305 you really lack understanding that you're not a chosen ones by God

[@mary-leelutz4911]

Neither side seems to understand that a peace agreement requires each side to compromise. Israel behaves as if it is giving up everything, not realizing that Palestinians would also be giving up something for peace.

[@vlx714]

They created it because they don't want to be called terrorist.

[@victoriamarks5441]

what about the christian Palestinians? neither side ever acknowledged them.

[@Anonymous-rz6vq]

because the Majority are Muslims, however the Christians by default fall into that category because they are Palestinians. Hence, if justice is brought to the Palestinians then by principal, Christians, Jews and Muslims and Atheists and other religions that consider themselves Palestinians will be Liberated.

[@theklorg305]

They live well with independence in Israel. Ask the Copyics.

[@theklorg305]

*coptics

[@victoriamarks5441]

@@theklorg305 what about in Bethlehem they don't seem to be doing all that well there

[@ericmiller254]

....? all the same things apply to the christians for the most part what is there to know? They too are Palestinians

[@octavioust.talium9110]

36:50 If he is saying that since those in the Gaza strip have been under Egyptian protction for to long that they become Egyption, and the same applies to the west bank, then why didn't the Jews that left Canaan over three thousand years ago to Europe not become Europeans?

[@benignuman]

1) That isn't what he was saying. He was saying that Palestinian nationalism was a reaction to Jewish nationalism. And had there been no Jewish nationalism, Palestine would have been split among its Arab neighbors. 2) The Jews did not go to Europe 3000 years ago. There have been Jews living in the diaspora for some 2,500 years but Jews were also the largest ethnic group in Israel/Palestine until about 620 AD. The Arabs conquered the land about 10 years later.

[@octavioust.talium9110]

@@benignuman 1) No. 2) Why isn't that neat, no you weren't the largest and ever since Solomon had died and your kingdom had fallen, you never ruled the land.

[@bman342a]

No, he is not saying that, or at least not at that time-stamp. But the Jews of the diasporas did become Europeans. Or at least they tried to. The problem is they were generally rejected and harmed by the governments or leaders in whom they had placed their trust. And could never really shake off their Semitic origins through the eyes of their "host" nations. The Russians rejected them with murderous pogroms; the British, Spanish, and the French, et al, with institutionalized antisemitism which often resulted in mass expulsions; the Spanish with forced conversions through the Inquisition and beyond; the Italians with forced ghettoization; the Germans and its allies, well you know where that went. The Jews of Europe didn't all of sudden get together and decide to return to their ancestral homeland. Through centuries of persecution, and worse, they were pushed in that direction by those intolerant of their existence.

[@bodhisattva4eva]

@@bman342a it seems to me your very argument supports my take that anti-zionism is not anti-Semitism! Anti-zionists are saying live among us ( i.e., in the diaspora as you say), we want you to be among us, non-jews, living and thriving as fellow citizens in a liberal democracy with equal political rights as individuals. An anti-semite might say I want you to have your own land so you do not have live with me. Another example, whites who supported facilitating repatriation of African Americans to Africa I would venture is an anti-black racist.

[@victormeidan1062]

@@octavioust.talium9110 But the Jews have now returned to their Land. That is the Lesson of History

[@HoldenNY22]

Someone should ask Youssef if he would call on Arab Natoins to make amends to their Jewish Citizens for kicking them out of their Countires and dispossessng their Land and Property.

[@bubuphilip]

Einat Wilf was the wrong choice for this debate. Instead of arguing facts and ideas, she continuously equated the issue to herself on an emotional level. Lots of talk not necesarily relevant to the vast majority of stakeholders.

[@danpatterson7108]

Yeah, she's terrible, i've seen her on something like this before. All she does is, "this is how scared we all are!!!!" and it comes off bat shit crazy!

[@MichelMawon4982]

@@danpatterson7108 and manipulative, playing on our collective sympathy over the Holocaust and the overrepresented trope that unwelcome anywhere.

[@ariellajasminasher5293]

October 7th 2023 here we are again 💔

[@HoldenNY22]

Where are these Debates held? Are these Debates on different topics currently being held especially in the New York City Area?

[@chugalongway01]

A "Jewish Democracy" or "Jewish & Democratic" is a contradiction in terms. Jewish being exclusive and democracy being inclusive. The very idea of a "Jewish State" is an anomaly. It is something that has never happened before so why should we accept this anomaly? The Zios are asking for Israel to be a racist state, pure and simple

[@Hydrogenagent]

BINGO!!!

[@olliegray21]

Islam and Democracy or Democratic Islam ,if you will , is contradictory. Therefore the so called Iran Islamic "Republic" should not exist.

[@SaidMetiche-qy9hb]

the Torah says the Jews should not create a state

[@m0ckingB1rd42]

This is so stupid. This is like calling all the Native aAmerican nations within the US illegitimate "racist states". Israel represents the most successful indigenous rights movement in the world. That is why people of Christian and Muslim colonialist heritage hate it so much

[@laracroft938]

The british debate was much better .

[@deciembre2012]

Largely because of the great Mehdi Hasan.

[@nathanielwestermann]

"And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of the first and the last, who was dead and came to life: I know your affliction and your poverty, even though you are rich. I know the slander on the part of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:8-9

[@ICA_Ghost]

20:08 SHE SAID ”ZIONISM ENABLED CRITICISM ON ISRAEL“.... this is too much for me

[@vinceellis673]

THAT is a very close debate!

[@idykhan1926]

😂

[@MentalDeviant]

This girl is saying that we criticize Israel too much. The truth is that most don't, It feels like we're not allowed to! And if the criticism is legit, than why is it a problem. She's either delusional or she's exaggerating.

[@benignuman]

Israel is far and away the country most condemned by the United Nations. There are more resolutions in the UN and the UNHRC against Israel every year than every other country combined.

[@misspollysdolly]

Ikr Israel is the only country noone is allowed to criticise! They've brainwashed people into thinking criticising Israel or zionism is the same as being anti semitic. We stand with our Jewish brothers and sisters but zionism and Israel are responsible for genocide

[@iGong]

In the same debate in the UK "against" won much more decisively. I found the "against" debaters excellent and the "for" debaters disingenous. Expressing support for the two state solution is a joke nowadays, or as Avi Shlaim says it: you can't sell a pizza while you eat it.

[@julianah.5157]

I’m confused which side are you

[@piruz3243]

Yousef looks and sounds like Peter Jacobson, a Palestinian activist looking like a Jewish actor- priceless.

[@MrBezigebij]

Jews and Palestinians are ethnically cousins; there’s really very little surprising about this.

[@francishallare204]

A jewish state with majority arab demographics is not "Jewish" and as a voting bloc would determine the outcome of every elections.

[@danfriedman2556]

Isreal dosent have a arab majority last time I checked

[@ericmiller254]

@@danfriedman2556 with the right of return they do....which they are entitled to under international law

[@basselkhairy1829]

We are asking the Arabs to accept that a People have come home after 2000 years. Now, who does that, right🤔? SERIOUSLY? Who knocks on the door, rings the doorbell, and says Honey I am home after 2000 years🤪! Can we at least acknowledge How CRAZY it is?😱

[@david32002]

While there wasn't an established Jewish state, there were always Jewish inhabiting a portion of what became contemporary Israel. Covering relatively recently history of the Jews: At the time of the Arab Conquest in the 7th century, the Jews of Palestine were estimated to number between 300,000 and 400,000, or 150,000 and 200,000. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel During the First Crusade, Jerusalem fell to a large army from southern France in 1099. "The Jewish community in Palestine was forced to surrender to the new rulers, or face execution." Source: www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-crusades/ When the Mamluks conquered Palestine [in 1260], destroyed the coastal towns, and eliminated the last vestiges of crusader rule, the map of Jewish settlements in the land was radically changed. With the disappearance of the Acre community, which until then had been the most prominent, the inland communities of Safed, and especially Jerusalem, took its place. Gaza and Hebron harbored smaller communities, and several Jewish villages remained on the Upper Galilee. Source: www.myjewishlearning.com/article/jews-in-palestine/ At the onset of Ottoman rule in 1517, there were approximately 1,00 Jewish families in "Jerusalem, Nablus (Shechem), Hebron, Gaza, Safed (Tzfat)." Source: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ottoman-rule-1517-1917 "Around 1850, the number of in Palestine Jews was estimated at a little above 10,000; more than half resided in Jerusalem, and the remaining Jews lived in the three other holy cities, Safed, Tiberias, and Hebron." Source: Rethinking the yishuv: late-Ottoman Palestine’s Jewish communities revisited (Link: sci-hub.st/10.1080/14725886.2016.1246230) There were approximately between 65,000 and 85,000 Jews in Palestine in 1914. Source: Rethinking the yishuv: late-Ottoman Palestine’s Jewish communities revisited

[@basselkhairy1829]

@@david32002 Thank you for the time, effort, and resources you have put into your reply. I would like to tell you on a separate note that if I am going to check the resources I will need to examine it too for the data it contains and its accuracy for more than one source. Taking into consideration, the lack of technology they had these days. God save the queen and Facebook 😂 I am not opposing the above too because I haven't done that. Our Arab jew's existence in their properties and in the land as indigenous people of the Middle East is always welcomed. Diversity is fun, believe me To expel other families and other indigenous people to solve a European problem and the neighbor calls for other of the same religion from all over the world and dehumanize, kill, torture the indigenous people and steal their lands is what I will never accept under any sort of terminology proposed! Its called common sense my friend

[@hawks5999]

John: “(you) kinda met our goal (of civil discourse)”

[@lizwarneck8355]

Great debate on a difficult topic that affects the course of history and has for thousands of years. Because I know biblical history, it rips at my convictions. Yet, to sit quietly is to take a stand of cowardice and failure to stand against that which is wrong is to agree with the wrongdoing. There really is no neutral. Help us, Lord. Give wisdom and direction, that Your Name may be glorified in the earth.

[@RyanNelsonHolt]

This is a tricky phrasing & obviously extraordinarily emotional issue for everyone. I just appreciate the respectful debate & public discord. It’s ok to disagree & not hate the other person. Love Intelligence Squared.

[@Brahmdagh]

Just replace the adjective Jew/Jewish with White/European in the sentences of the Zionists, and see the KKK emerge in your mind.

[@Linda43]

@@Brahmdagh Not supremacist but patriotic. Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people

[@benignuman]

Yes if you change the words the meaning changes.

[@THEcommitteeVISION]

46:30

[@JohnMChew]

If they really believe what they are saying they should give ALL of Manhattan back to the Iroquois. Lead by example

[@newlevel2201]

OMg peter bernard is this guy sat at the back of the Classroom nobody notices him while in fact he is SPIDERMAN damn it his speech was clear and constructed with no hurtful words towards the other part and of course his arguments make sens

[@homemail2450]

1:02 you don't have to pay that tax to the Lutheran church. It is voluntary.

[@16psyco]

And i am french and i can told you for SURE that jew student didn't have armed guard for them to go to school => it is a lie

[@benignuman]

They have armed guards at the schools (and synagogues): www.wsj.com/articles/for-europes-jews-worship-comes-with-a-heavy-dose-of-security-1540846059 And at various times over the past 10 years, the French government has had to send out the troops to protect Jewish schools and houses of worship.

[@roddupre8314]

These two halves of this debate have demonstrated vehemently the precise reason why the conflict will never end if you live in the past wrapped in a blanket of anger hatred and hurt you can never grow beyond that these adults need to take a lesson from children. when you place a group of children together to play they don't see race or religion they just see other kids. it's the adults that train there children to be ignorant and hate-filled we who call ourselves adults are the problem. Take a lesson from our kids and learned to see other adults as just that other adults! nothing more nothing less take joy in their belief provided their belief does not harm and let them do the same for you.

[@mirodeniro8050]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWK5haeVia1_aqM

[@jaeger9654]

Live in the past . The christian been wiped out from the Middle East. Right now. And also nigeria there is on going genocide too. U need to save heaven then maybe we can try those experiments. Try it to those who have racist ideology on their religion believe in end of time they will MASSCARE u.

[@tictoc5443]

Jews have 2000 years of memory being a minority group in europe and the middle east with regular slaughter and marginalisation... In a majority jewish state in their ancestral homeland they have a chance to live with some dignity... Sadly that is the reality for minority groups

[@hamzazad5258]

Anti-zionism is NOT anti-semitism

[@bman342a]

Who is the moderator? Thought he did a great job.

[@bumablaise09]

John Donovan, he moderates intelligence squared debate. Check out other IQ2 debates on KZbin.

[@idykhan1926]

Imagine NOAM Chomsky on this debate 😂😂

[@XX-pl9wp]

The Pattern is strong and thriving

[@rcforb5255]

Jews that are against isreal: *am i a joke to you*

[@theklorg305]

Name 10

[@rcforb5255]

@@theklorg305 There is a group called Neturei Karta, they are against israel. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

[@theklorg305]

@@rcforb5255 A. The other Orthodox groups have all disavowed them. They actively went to Irans holocaust denial cartoon contest, and they are known for being extreme in their beliefs for even the Orthodox, which some think is based around supporting their leader. Furthermore, they don't even have .1% of all Jews in their number. Thats like saying that because I'm Arab its erasing Arabs to say they don't want to all destroy Israel. B. Wikipedia is a horrible source.

[@qwli5460]

@@theklorg305 ultra orthodox Jews (haredim)oppose Zionism because it was originally a secular ideology, but thay have no problem with the political and national part of it.

[@qwli5460]

self hating Jews: am I a joke to you

[@octavioust.talium9110]

1:18:20 Does it mention how the Jews lived under Islam before there was a State of Israel? If it doesn't, it isn't informative sufficiently. If it does, then did the man interview an actual Islamic scholar to better understand the Islamic Arabic approach, or did he just right what he thought he understood?

[@facelessnameless]

@Yusuf Isa do you have a recommendation where to find this info

[@billzhang8628]

You mean as second class citizens who had to pay a protection tax?

[@scm847]

This American version of IQ2 is much better in terms of production than the British version of the same topic a few years ago. Donovan is no doubt one of the best mediators out there.

[@ClapTrapNinjaAssasin]

Mr bed bug had another terrible performance at least the other three panellists were interesting

[@julianah.5157]

Why would you not provide the results

[@octavioust.talium9110]

33:45 Very dear sister.. Take a moment to examine what Israel did to the Palestinians, what your so dear Zionism encouraged the Jews to do, then say that Zionism supports Palestinians in the mirror and try to believe yourself.

[@theendlesslights]

well, what happened was more because of anti zionism then because of zionism

[@octavioust.talium9110]

@@theendlesslights Then you clearly haven't examined anything

[@theendlesslights]

@@octavioust.talium9110 Trust me, I've read a lot about it. If the palestinians had agreed to the 1947 offer and not started a war, or if they hadn't contiued the war after Israel won in 1948 then there would have been peace.

[@octavioust.talium9110]

@@theendlesslights Nope, the word you mean is injustice

[@basedfemboi9401]

If Jews get to have a homeland then so does everyone else they have to stop pushing open borders immediately

[@vlx714]

If i don't steal it , someone else will - yakub

[@LAlba9]

This is actually a debate about how and why these terms have been largely distorted to mean something new and different. Zionism, a 19th century movement an out "the right of return" which grew to create a Jewish homeland in the Middle East, is only in part related to the term "Semitic" which refers historically to all Jews, Arabs and other people's originally in this region. It's testimony to how historically illiterate and thereby, gullible we have become as English speaking people. Why that is so, is another issue altogether which I won't raise here because it's way outside the debate's purview.

[@tictoc5443]

Palestinians have had their own state since 1922 when they took the lions share of ottoman palestine east of the jordan river as their jew free state

[@DiffQ_Bro]

Yousef Munayer even looks Italian.

[@dingdingdingding2871]

States are modern phenomena. There was intermingling in the Mediterranean region all alone, naturally. You will even find arabs with blue eyes and blonder hair then those white supremacists. We are all human that is what matters and should matter.

[@baibac6065]

@@dingdingdingding2871 Most people in Southern Europe have mostly Middle Eastern genes from over 9000 years ago anyway (First Farmers) Its peak is in the island of Sardinia in Italy.

[@addulmalik78]

The guy arguing for the motion looks like a 60 years old Jarrad Kushner

[@octavioust.talium9110]

Why on earth would they make two debates on the same topic, six monthes apart? What is the point?

[@user-lv4ov5rp6d]

Where is the other debate? Please link.

[@octavioust.talium9110]

@@user-lv4ov5rp6d On intelligence squared, Britain edition. Just look it up. It is the video with Mehdi Hassan as the thumbnail. Title: Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism. Ps: it's not.

[@aliyare349]

A turn the comments off for the other one. I really wonder

[@iamgod2063]

"Anti-zionists are Well Educated & Young" We're looking good on the telly boys.

[@jordanwilson5258]

You can take back land that was taken from you, but you can’t say it’s your god ordained right too.

[@basedfemboi9401]

Literal supremacist

[@vincentgrams]

Not supporting ethno nationalism is anti semitism .....There I fixed the title for ya 😚👍

[@Bettybaminjerusalem]

1. The fact that there are people out of Israel debating about of Palestinians and Israelies is ridiculas. Ask us Israelies, ask the Palestinians, both of us don't want to live together in one state. You can't force 9 milloin Israeli+ 7 million Palestinians to agree to that. The real problem is Palestinians want all the land with no jews, while jews are whilling to compermize on land. If you don't belive me watch "the ask project", where cori goes asking both sides these types of questions. 2. I have many friends who made aliya from different countries because of antisemitisem, not in the 1940, but now in the 21 century. One friend weren't told she was jewish until she was 11, because they were afraid she will blert it out to others and the family will be in danger. Right now there are jewish around the world feeling not safe in other countries they are citizens in and some of them are thinking of making aliya to Israel, thank god that option exsist. You want to take chances, risks and expiriments, do it with your own lives, not with mine and my family, and my people. I will think of the Idea after the Kurds will get a country, all occupied territories (including England , Denmark, Netherland, US, west sahara, Tibet etc. will get a solution. 3. The example of south Africa is actually a realy bad one. I am more than happy black and white have equal rights and think it was nessecary but other than that South Africa is a country with huge problems and is not so calm and peacefull, so no this example does not give me hope of a bright futer.

[@gary100dm]

Because the Zionists are not indiginous the Palestinians are.

[@sadiq7700]

No, obviously

[@mortef]

"Anti-Zionism is a kosher world-view." - perfectly put

[@ussliberty4631]

Interesting

[@kindface]

56:22 Stephens: do the Jews in this room feel safer in America today than they did 5 years ago? Me: All visible minorities especially Asians feel feel less safe today; Jews are not the exception.

[@martinwolmarans1833]

I thought God was supposed to give Israel back to the Jewish people nor Zionists or man.

[@vandl107]

Same here...

[@HoldenNY22]

I like to see a Debate about the COVID Vaccines and the Mandates of the Vaccines. I like to see Robert F. Kennedy Jr or one of his Associates at Children's Health Defense and Anthony Fauci or one of his acolytes on the Other Side.

[@oolooo]

Objectively , it is .Denying the right to exist in their Homeland to the Jewish People is Anti-Semitic .If someone brought this up about any other group that had just 1/100th of the religious , spiritual , cultural , historical and presencial connection that the Jewish people have with Israel , that person would be labelled a genocidal racist .But it is fine with the State of Israel , the only thing stopping the Jews of the territory from being wiped off .

[@ericmiller254]

This is delusional. Palestinians have a vastly deeper connection to the land. Obviously Also presencial? i'll assume that's a typo

[@oolooo]

@@ericmiller254 Ah , yes , because Palestinians have been living there for 3200 years uninterruptedly with mutliple independent states of their own popping up and have like 80% of their culture and religion based around their connection to that land .It is not like it is a fake , fabricated nation made up during the 60s for Islamic groups to rally behind and use as pawns to try to delegitimize Israel and its thousands of years of history . Clearly , Palestinians are the ones with a connection to the land .Just look at how much they want to develop and advance that land compared to the backwards Israelis and their primitive technology .Palestinians clearly love their "native" land , that is why they blockade basically any archeological endevour in the city of Jerusalem done by Israeli and non-Israeli experts . They have such a connection .

[@ericmiller254]

@@oolooo yes they have, their ancestors were the jews religion is not blood, european jews are just europeans with a little bit of Palestinian blood. They are at most a caste not a people with hereditary land rights. Ashkenazi are a European caste with much better claims to european land. the arabs did not expel the jews. they were always arabs. they just converted

[@dfnope]

Weird to see so many thumbs down. Disliking the video hurts the channel, like the video if you want more ppl to see the discussion, not if you disagree/agree with the title.

[@deadastronaut2440]

No it doesn't. Algorithm favors controversy.

[@shannon8111]

Yeah if you actually hate a video do nothing. Don't comment don't thumbs down. The holy Algorithm sees it all as engagement.

[@FloAkaGott]

Why even say dumb stuff like that? Facts doesn't matter to you huh? But give this video with a highly controversial Titel a thumps up so the average viewer who doesn't read comments thinks the majority supports that zionism..

[@sylviastarks1539]

I am anti- wicked and anti- liars

[@DoronBenDavidMusic]

False information

[@greglawrencemusic]

Why have so many nations held a general disdain for Jews?

[@Linda43]

They haven't. Jews were welcome into many countries because of their skills as financiers and doctors.

[@Linda43]

@@RunThatBackYT Not countries but city stated which usually invited them back to run the finances. Each expulsion brought us closer to our ancestoral homeland Israel.

[@Linda43]

@@RunThatBackYT Israel is the only homeland of the Jewish people. The Arabs in Israel have 22 Arab states to choose from-we have one.

[@demarcusblack1328]

Because they've disloyal & untrustworthy.

[@Linda43]

@@demarcusblack1328 The contrary is true. The Jewish people have always contributed to each country they have lived in through out the centuries. Those countries that sought to destroy us....have only destroyed themselves.

[@buuhuu4759]

We already had that discussion 1 year ago with Medhi Hasan. But this proofs that the agenda has to push and push again this topic until it favors them.

[@a.s.4579]

Anti-zionism is NOT Anti-semitism. Not by definition. Some antisemites could use anti-zionism as cover. Zionism is a political ideology/movement NOT Judaism or the Jews.

[@theklorg305]

Anti-Zionism is anti-semitic in that it means no place for Jews to go be free to be Jews. Remember, no one took us after the Holocaust

[@a.s.4579]

@@theklorg305 I'm not against the self determination of Jews in Israel/Palestine. I'm against it if it's done by depriving equal rights to others. The idea of a Jewish state and a Jewish majority although really noble if we see in which circumstances lead European Jews to adopt , it necessitated the demographic replacement and the continue denial of the law of return. Zionism has to 2 sides of the coin , one beautiful and the other ugly. It's the whole package. In my opinion it should be done a rethinking or rebranding of Zionism because the Zionism put in place, in practice didn't really adress in a positive way the faith and the rights of the non-Jews of the land. It should be done in a way that doesn't give more rights to a people over the other. Nobody is born to hate. All people want is a normal life and dignity. Peace out.

[@theklorg305]

@@a.s.4579 Zionism is not a hateful ideology. The third largest party in Israel is an Arab identity party, after all (though it just split in two over whether to work with Netanyahu). Jews, including "European" Jews, are the original, native inhabitants of Israel. Zionists accepted: -Making Israel go from its planned size (Israel, Jordan, parts of Syria and Lebanon) to not even todays size. -A two-state solution in 1948. When that failed, they still brokered peace after a defensive war. -They gave up 60% of their territory to Egypt. -The holiest site in Judaism, the site of the second temple, is still Arab controlled. -They left Gaza, where the new democratic government voted in Hamas, which explicitly wants to kill them. You can't expect Israel to kill itself, it won't (though it does give money to the Palestinian government which has a pay-to-slay program where you get a huge income for killing an Israeli citizen) What it does do is give full rights to the Arab population of modern-day Israel, and has been supportive of peace.

[@a.s.4579]

@@theklorg305 I didn't say that Zionism is a hateful ideology. Let's not underrate the connection that Palestinians have to the land too. Neither one connection or the other is more important or should be privileged. Not to say that Palestinians are also Hebrews. People convert and cultures and languages evolve during the course of history. People remain from the place even though they changed the way they identify themselves. Both connections are equally important and both people are native or indigenous to the land. What do you mean by that ? Are you referring to Greater Israel? I'll leave you the link of a video of an Italian journalist (in English ) that unveiled the mythology surrounding this whole story. Both sides should liberate themselves from national mythologies and be neutral as possible in search for the facts. I urge you to watch it :) kzbin.info/www/bejne/aXqtXoKhe55jps0

[@theklorg305]

@@a.s.4579 If you were saying something after the or..., it won't show. At any rate, for Jews, I do think one connection is more important in Israel proper. Most Jews are from the West Bank, and are their as a compromise. Palestinians are an ethnic majority in Jordan, but the Hashemites have their desires to stay in power, so their important in that spot.

[@danaaronmusic]

More to the point would be a debate on the proposition that the Palestinian people want statehood. All the evidence suggests that they do not. (Notice that I said evidence, not words.)

[@ericmiller254]

They want the right of return they'll probably get it sooner or later

[@lucretius8050]

It is different, however in the greater scheme of things any type of anti-ism mindset is going to pick on commonality and oppose it through that mindset. Example a Chinese racist will very pick on most any Asian looking person regardless if whether the person is actually a Chinese. No offense but any technicalities for any type of anti-ism is just moot.

[@MrSwitchblade327]

Precisely what they're created to do. Unfortunately the masses of people will never wake to it.

[@benignuman]

I think Beinart's point about the polling showing Antisemitism more common among the old and uneducated and antizionism more common among the young and educated is completely fails to answer the criticism that the language of antizionism often mirrors antisemitism. The using of the same tropes and accusations in antizionism as the antisemitism of the past if obvious to any Jew that has engaged with antizionists online. By recasting the tropes as antizionist instead of antisemitic they are able to gain credence among the young and educated. If we want to use polling to test this out, we ought to ask the same "antisemitic" test questions but remove the reference to Jews and change it to Zionists. Instead of asking "Do you agree that Jews have too much control over the media?," ask "Do you agree that Zionists have too much control over the media." I would bet $100 dollars that a much higher percentage of young and educated people in the USA would answer the latter in the affirmative but the former in the negative.

[@ericmiller254]

So what if they are mirroring anti semetic tropes? That wouldn't mean that anti zionism inherent means anti semtism. No point in knocking that down. There is nothing to gain even if you let it stand It specifically doesn't work for that. Zionists are not necessarily Jews. Most are christians. There are only about ~20 million jews on the planet. And many of them are not zionists.

[@ericmiller254]

@Bruine Poep Sounds like if you're worried about that (I assume you're jewish) that you need to look to Israelis not Americans to solve that issue Apartheid undercuts the fundamentals modern American society is built on. Israel is a settler colonial state. Anti zionism is the only sane secular nationalist position for all sorts of reasons. But without apartheid and denying the right of return there is no Israel. There is no way around this.

[@francishallare204]

Eric Miller ah yes because the abolish the state where half of the jewish population reside isn't anti semitic Get a grip🙄

[@user-uc3qg3pq4w]

Zionism is a destructive ideology, it is a perversion of traditional Jewish beliefs, its the politicisation of spiritual ideals, it turns the inward spiritual path of the heart towards god into an external political ideology, artificially trying to bring about political and social conditions that they believe will be necessary for the Messiah to appear and gain power, who to them is not something of a spiritual nature that comes from above but a political type figure/leader who rules much like any contemporary politician in reality what the zionists hope for as a leader will be the anti-christ himself and they are actively trying to make this a reality, its just they aren't aware that he will be the anti-christ, the few traditional orthodox jews that are left who still live an inward spiritual life will see this so called Messiah for what he is and they will reject him along with the political/social situation that will be an expression of him, just as they already oppose the foreshadowing of this with the state of Israel the orthodox Christians and any other Christians and anyone at all who can see will reject all this aswell as they already do, this is all explained in great detail by the orthodox Christian saints

[@chuck9483]

So this lady has two home countries? America and Israel?

[@muhammad-burhanmustafa4429]

Am I the only one who thinks Einat Wilf was not a good choice for this debate? It seems she only uses feelings in her debates and very few actual arguments?

[@plaguedoct0r]

What a surprise, another debate about israel/palestine that completely ignores that it's a fight over a magical rock. Re: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_Stone

[@smujismuj]

Does anyone think we can't see the difference between the racism/bigotry of antisemitism and imperialism/nationalist hubris of zionism? Should Mormons have their own state? Should Fundamentalist Baptists have their own state? As an antizionist I call for the restructuring of Israel, not its destruction.

[@Orbitwashere]

mormons have their own state it is called Utah LOL. and u can't make up your own version of anti-zionism to fit ur own cutey viewpoint. Also mormons haven't been persecuted for centuries and is a new religious group. (Same with fundamentalist baptists)

[@johnmarka7940]

Everyone here is being played. A Semite is someone that speaks Jews or Arabic. Get your facts straight.

[@Orbitwashere]

"Someone who speaks Jews" LOOLLLL

[@liamwinter4512]

I wonder what their combined IQs would be if squared.

[@TRICROTIC1]

160,000?

[@ICA_Ghost]

20:28 you mean like nuclear bombs?

[@earlycuyler9760]

Lol yeah😂

[@iambad493]

It is not

[@kindface]

I have never read any treatise on what Zionism is. From the occasional article I have read here and there, Zionism has usually struck me as a rather hawkish ideology being practised by the current government of Netanyahu. I was hoping to pick up more understanding from this debate. Instead, from the opening speeches of Stephens and Wilf, this is what I heard: Stephens: if you’re anti-Zionism, you’re an anti-Semite. Don’t kid yourself. Wilf: Why can’t I be entitled? That seems like a rather inauspicious start to my education.

[@ajarnwordsmith628]

Bret Stephens and/or Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks?

[@julianah.5157]

WHO WON????

[@slothjolly8075]

I’m against having an anti-Zionism ideology AND I’m against calling anti-Zionism the new anti semitism. That’s my view after watching this

[@vforvendetta60]

"If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” _David Ben-Gurion (Founding father of Israel).

[@blakecyclops7231]

@@vforvendetta60 Lmfaooooooo the source of this "quote" is Nachum Goldmann, a personal rival of Ben-Gurion, claiming that Ben-Gurion said it to him in private conversation. He published this claim two decades after the conversation was meant to have taken place, and five years after Ben-Gurion’s death.

[@blakecyclops7231]

@@vforvendetta60 "Questionable, Unverified Source: Clifford claims that Ben-Gurion wrote: "If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural, we have taken their country." In fact, according to Nahum Goldmann, Ben-Gurion allegedly said this to him. Goldmann was an adversary of Ben-Gurion, and he came out with this alleged quote, verbatim, in his book published two decades later (The Jewish Paradox, 1978), five years after Ben-Gurion died. There was no recording of the quote, and Ben-Gurion was no longer around to dispute it." So there is no evidence that he ever said this.

[@SD-oj2yr]

@@blakecyclops7231 Who cares if he ever said it, those are pretty much the damn sentiments. It would be like me making a deal with my dad to buy your property, without your say. Which, I'm 100% down for this business transaction to go through by the way, if you're not, then you're actually against Israel existing since that's the means in which it was "legitimized." Guess what, Palestine AND the other Arab nations aren't down with that at all, get a clue.

[@chuck9483]

Excellent debate! I appreciate the reading recommendations at the end of it. I'd like to throw one more in for anyone interested..."Culture of Critique" by Kevin MacDonald offers incredible insight into the misunderstood peoples of Israel.

[@tester4327]

No antizyenism is not antisemitic as two very diffrent organisation one believe in Tora word of god other talumd..

[@carlrichieukmusic]

#EuropaTheLastBattle documentary

[@conorboyle5954]

Excellent debate

[@octavioust.talium9110]

38:50 Well if they did except it out of good will and kindness of heart, why on earth did they take more and more of lands which they excepted to be not their own?

[@francishallare204]

Defensive wars any sane country would secure territorial integrity so future attacks can be prevented. But anyway the Arab world has clearly set aside the palestinian cause in exchange for regional stability and the iranian threat peace deals between israel and the uae, bahrain, sudan, morocco would not have signed without the approval of Saudi Arabia. Edit: add the current split between Hamas controlled gaza and PA west bank.

[@rennyskiathitis8178]

Israel has always claimed the West Bank as their land, they actually returned all land they gained from warfare they deemed not necessary for defence. For example, the Sinai Peninsula was captured from Egypt during the 6 day war. It was returned later for a peace deal. Gaza, which was also gained during the six day war in 1967 was given up to the Palestinians in 2005 as a peace offer, it's not Israel's fault the Palestinians used that opportunity to wage war instead of develop their territory. The West Bank was captured from Jordan in the Six day war but that was because Jordan invaded Israel. Israel held on to The West Bank because Israel considers it a part of Israel. There is a reason for this. The West Bank was part of the British Mandate for Palestine from 1920-1948. Jordan captured it by invading Israel in 1948. The British Mandate for Palestine was created as a Jewish national home by the League of Nations in 1920. The West Bank was also called Judea and Samaria before it was called the West Bank. Jews have always lived there, until Jordan ethnically cleansed the area in 1948. Israel also captured the Golan heights in 1967. They held on to this because Lebanon is an enemy and used the territory to stage attacks against Israel. So as you can see, Israel has been willing to give up a lot of territory in the name of peace.

[@jonznuff]

Semite ------> 1.relating to or denoting a family of languages that includes Hebrew, Arabic, and Aramaic and certain ancient languages such as Phoenician and Akkadian, constituting the main subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic family. 2. > relating to the peoples who speak Semitic languages, especially Hebrew and Arabic.

[@Linda43]

The phrase Antisemitism was coined in the 1800s by a non Jewish German to describe anti Jewish sentiment on Central Europe. There is now a Internationally recognized definition of Antisemitism accepted by most countries.

[@Octopetala]

SNEAKY

[@jambouh8575]

Zionism is a political ideology whereas Judaism ( semitic referring here to the affiliation to Judaic religious believes ) is a religion. Two different things, you can’t say for example “ oranges are the new carrots “ only because they are vegetables bearing slightly a similar color.

[@Linda43]

Zionism is a political ideology whose roots are in Judaism.

[@YoutubularGooghoul]

Zionism is modern day Nazism and must be stopped! Zionists have waged genocide on Palestinians since the Rothschild/Zionism creation of Israel (Isis + Ra + El) End apartheid! I stand with Palestine!!!!

[@michabell1713]

Who cares let's just send all of them there especially the dual citizens politicians

[@sunshine6522]

Your racism is truly disgusting.

[@michabell1713]

@@sunshine6522 it not racism it's making sure our soldiers don't die fighting wars for Israel

[@sunshine6522]

@@michabell1713Our country is an empire which wages wars all around the globe. to blame our own problems on the Jewish state is Anti Semitic.

[@michabell1713]

@@sunshine6522 I'm only pointing out it is a little odd all our war for twenty years are in israel favour

[@sunshine6522]

@@michabell1713 What specific wars are you talking about and how are they in Israel's favor?

[@emilyherman4483]

Why don't they have a debate about the atrocities committed by the Israeli state toward the Palestinian people? The debate should be "Should state sponsored genocide be backed by the American government?"

[@Linda43]

They don't because it is a lie. The Arab population in Israel has quadrupled in the last 70 years. No genocide.

[@emilyherman4483]

@@Linda43 I'm talking about Gaza and the West bank

[@ArtSmosh1274]

@@emilyherman4483 not a genocide either

[@Linda43]

@@emilyherman4483 Judea and Samaria is Israel. Gaza was a part of Israel until 2005. Genocide involves millions as in the Shoah. There is no genocide. That is a yt lie.

[@christiansoldier77]

@@emilyherman4483 Palestinians had control of Gaza and the West Bank and used it to attack Israel so they have nothing to complain about

[@hydraulichydra8363]

I find the standards for white and Jewish nationalism to be very different.

[@sylviastarks1539]

When ya'll stop lying about who ya'll are then maybe some people would like you

[@howdareyou7829]

I love how I get somebody down votes just a debate Lol crybabies

[@john_hunter_]

Anti-Nazism is Anti-German. The German people have a right to self determination.

[@ryublueblanka]

The Germans have suffered more than most understand

[@benignuman]

Is anyone trying to get rid of Germany as a country in the name of anti-Nazism? No. Well then your analogy really doesn't work, does it?

[@sylviastarks1539]

Converts that god's chisen people

[@scottrobinson9752]

"Ancient, ugly, persistent hostility towards Jewish people..." My dad used to say, back in the 70s and 80s... anytime a news segment regarding difficulties in Israel and Palestine was on tv.... "Jews need to figure out why they are constantly chased out of the places they go...". He never offered an opinion though. I remember in junior high studying the Civil War, and the teacher talking about Ulysses S. Grant removing Jews from his area of military operation, because they began manipulating and speculating in the cotton market, in an aggressive and unfair manner. It began to affect Grants ability to maintain stability in the area he was in charge of. That tale seems to be a common thread to, in varying degrees, larger and smaller. Its not hard to trace Jewish ownership in banks, the corporate world, media, entertainment, publishing, etc... There is no question that they are, what most people would consider, over represented... in almost every major arena in the world. When Theodore Herzl (a Jew) crafted modern Zionism, and Karl Marx (a Jew) crafted modern communism...the two things seemed like two sides of the same coin. If communism fails, you are offered Zionism...If Zionism fails, you are offered Communism. In the modern world, when any group of people or nation, attempts to live outside of those two ideologies...they are quickly deemed an enemy that needs to be crushed. When Communism collapsed in the USSR, Zionism spread pretty quickly. Simultaneously, Zionism has nearly run its course in the West...and communist subversion is on the rise. Things like the founding of the Federal Reserve, benefitted literally no one but powerful Jewish bankers. It served no purpose to actual American citizens, and still serves no purpose other than debt creation and wealth transfer. Until Jews are ready to honestly discuss things in this frame, they will have continual problems. I'm have no need to simply pick a group of people to dislike... that's exhausting. And I think most people feel that way. I would like my people to be in charge of our currency. That shouldn't be considered a big ask. I think all nations and peoples, should be able to bring their own money into existence. That should not be considered antisemitic.

[@HumanProgress]

Christianity gave the world many wonderful gifts... It also gave the world the gift of antisemitism 👍🙂 Thanks for that.

[@westbethkid]

If you found this interesting, I highly recommend the British version with participant Mehdi Hassan

[@manankaushik4966]

Yes he outclassed his opponents with to the point arguments

[@ahsansubhan6]

Just saw Heisenberg from breaking bad at 2:55

[@nafatikhalil6565]

Watch the Mehdi Hassen debate IT's lot a better than this

[@tigercatjones9948]

In my opinion, a better debate on the same topic was held in England on July 26, 2019. featuring Melanie Phillips and once again, Einat Wilf arguing for with Ilan Pappe and Medhi Hasan arguing against. Einat Wilf argues essentially the same thing as she does on this debate, Melanie Phillips gives a much better defense of her position than Bret Stephens (who is argument is actually weaker than his the drivel he writes for the NYT). Ilan Pappe is better than Binart and Munayyer together and Mehdi Hasan is in a class by himself. He chews up and spits out the what-if arguments of Phillips and Wilf while presenting a closing argument that reveals a truth many Zionists and pro-Israselis are loathed to hear. The real bottom line is that there is no two-state solution, nor is there a one-state solution to be had. The problem is insoluble and will only get worse and never better.