Is Barefoot Charles' new boulder Font 9A/V17

Charles Albert has made the first ascent of L'Ombre du Voyageur (The Traveler's Shadow), in Salève, Haute-Savoie, France. He has graded the boulder 9A. This begs the question: if you don't use shoes or kneepads, will the grade stand up to scrutiny?
#bouldering #font9a #rockclimbing

[@andreasvalen8802]

I mean Climbing is almost always a sport of imposed restrictions, purposefully taking the most difficult path, and in some cases marking reachable holds/arretes as off limit for a particular climb. I see no problem saying “this is 9a without gear” if we also are to accept “this is 7b, but the corner is off limits”. Johnny Dawes famously established problems where different limbs were off limits, and he had no problem grading them whatever he felt was reasonable. Congratulations Charles on a massive achievement!👏🎉🎉

[@mrsansource5595]

He said it's 9a+ without gear and 9a with. An other climber who tried the route confirmed there wasn't a massiv rest gave by the shooes or kneebar who helped tremendously (or he didn't manage to place it well)

[@moonti6820]

Repeating Charles boulders with shoes or kneepads is just doing a different boulder imho. So basicaly Charles grades boulders for himself. And at the end of the day it's what grades are for: expressing how hard one found a climb.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

That’s pretty much what we concluded. It’s very, very different doing it with or without shoes and even more different doing something like this (ie a roof) with or without knee pads. In the avoidance of doubt, what Charles did was clearly extremely difficult and we’re not trying to take anything away from his ascent.

[@mrsansource5595]

​@@ukclimbingofficialWell, that'not really respectful of Charles's words. He explicitly said that he thinks it's 9a even with shooes and kneepads (and 9a+ without)

[@ukclimbingofficial]

It’s possible to respect someone’s opinion whilst also disagreeing with it. Either way it’s a moot point, as it’s all speculation - it’s not like we’ve been on it and only time will tell what grade it eventually settles at.

[@sandstone.addict]

Then he can just grade anything whatever the hell he wants? Just because he chooses to climb in a more difficult way doesn't make the climb harder than it is. Also how arrogant is he to claim he can climb v18? He's basically just claiming to be the best climber in the world with no one to hold him to his word

[@mrsansource5595]

@@sandstone.addict As did every climber who achieved a new grade the last decades... calling this arrogance is pure bullshit

[@svSGRDGRG1234]

About No kpote only, Charles himself admitted that with the new beta using an intermediate hold, the boulder was a tough 8c. He says so in a video on youtube which is in French so I guess that's why nobody seems to know about it. However, his initial beta was really 9a. So the change in grading only comes from the change in beta, not from climbing the boulder with or without shoes :)

[@ukclimbingofficial]

That's climbing though isn't it?! To say something is 9A with bad beta isn't to say it's actually 9A though. The effort someone invested into it might have been, but it doesn't mean that's what grade it is. Take Alex Megos' Bibliography for example. He graded it 9c and undoubtedly had a 9c experience on it, but when Stefano Ghisolfi repeated it with new beta they mutually agreed that with this refined sequence it was probably 9b+ and that's the grade that it gets. You don't grade problems for bad beta. I guess in the current case there is an acknowledgement that the first ascentionist likely did the problem in a VERY different style, to an extent inimitable style, which deserves credit in its own right. Any subsequent repeats will be very different to the first ascent.

[@Keukeu45]

Do you remember the title of the video by any chance?

[@motherlove8366]

@@ukclimbingofficialI’m not sure what you’re arguing against here tbh. Charles didn’t intentionally climb with bad beta, downgrade to beta change just happens. Point being just because Charles says it’s hard, doesn’t mean it’s actually easy if you use shoes

[@SheixXD]

@@ukclimbingofficial So prove your point by doing it on video if you have not tried you cannot talk like that

[@TrackpadProductions]

I've always found it kind of odd that kneebar pads are considered controversial by so many, and yet climbing shoes aren't. Like, either way you're strapping rubber to yourself to make bad holds easier to use 🤷

[@denislejeune9218]

The issue people have is when the kneepad leads to a repeat of a line FAed without kneepad. If you can 2-hand rest in what was the crux before, clearly there's gonna be a big disparity in the feel of the grade.

[@TrackpadProductions]

@@denislejeune9218Again, though, you could say the same about climbing shoes. Many classic lines were done in very primitive boots, with poor tension, no downturn, and slippery rubber.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

I’m with you on this. If rubber is ok on your feet, it’s also ok on your knees, although it’s worth emphasising that if you do something without either then it will make it harder - which is why Charles is so impressive. I guess the acknowledgement is that it does make a difference.

[@denislejeune9218]

@@TrackpadProductions what is your point here? asking in a friendly way

[@TrackpadProductions]

@@denislejeune9218A lot of people think that kneebar pads are unfair. I've even heard some people straight-up call them aid gear. I just find it kind of odd that climbing shoes never catch the same flak, even though it's fundamentally the same thing,

[@themeatpopsicle]

you'll never convince me that shoes aren't aid

[@ukclimbingofficial]

I feel like we need to make a UKC video of us doing a classic circuit without them. I doubt we’d get up a single problem 😅

[@mikej243]

dirty dozen without shoes!@@ukclimbingofficial

[@jacobhandyside5863]

if you've ever met charles and climbed with him, you will know how on a completely other level he is. Dude puts up 8c's and 8c+'s in the forest often and doesn't tell any 'media' about them. if he says 9a I believe him

[@davidschnetzer222]

Love the respectful commentary 👍🏼

[@lightsdarkness111]

But what would be the O grade?

[@cooperkrossa8348]

Great video! Information was interesting and concise. Very well put together

[@charliebunarek1761]

People do not give Charles enough credit for how much strength he has developed in his big toes. He has been climbing for over 15 years barefoot in font… the tendons in his toes are probably stronger than any of your finger tendons. He is not limiting himself he has reached his full potential in climbing and that’s using ALL his extremities to get up the boulder. I’d say this is absolutely 9a and No Kptoe Only was definitely 9a barefoot as well. He did a 2 finger Gaston on a razor crimp for Christ sake…. Give the king his crown

[@ukclimbingofficial]

🙏

[@raiemie7365]

I kind of agree with what you mean but generally people play by the same rules, either the conventional and then his climbs get downgraded or maybe his FA's should be done like he originally did (it's already the culture on many climbs) but then I think no one would repeat his boulders

[@TristanCleveland]

@@raiemie7365 Alex Megos has argued in favour of having different grades for with or without kneepads. Or at least he said it should be noted in the ascent.

[@charliebunarek1761]

@@raiemie7365 I personally think that a lot of his boulders are strong grades. The only way No Kyptoe Only got downgraded was because someone broke his beta using shoes. If no one can find a beta break with shoes I still think it would be the grade. Idk if there’s a way to check his other climbs but I would love to.

[@SCOclimbing]

@@TristanCleveland Seb Bouin said that about Change, that Change is probably 9b/+ rather than 9b+ like Adam proposed, the thing is, Adam did it without knee pad while Seb used it. I think it is just a matter of time till knee pads will be used as climbing shoes and chalk and the grades will eventually "normalize" for that matter. Till then, it will always be like this.

[@tomchurchman4213]

Be very suprised if its 9a after someone with shoes and pads tries it. Super impressive and probably 9a without shoes etc but its like grading a problem highly because you climb it with one hand or with your eyes shut. But really, what would I know? Just took me about 10 goes to climb a 7a so i'll shut up and get back in my box.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

If it’s any consolation I think it’d take me 10+ goes to get up a 6A at the moment, so you’re probably more qualified to comment than I am 😂

[@rdtarcade7644]

grading it without shoes is very different from grading without kneepads. charles is the 9a level boulderer that doest wear shoes so imo its fine to have a seperate "no shoe grade". pads however... imo if a boulder/route fa was done without them you dont get to claim that route/grade or even downgrade.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

I wonder if bare toes are an advantage in the thin crack

[@ukclimbingofficial]

I've wondered the same. I guess with enough training it could feel like another set of fingers, but even thinking about that makes me scared I'd get one stuck 😱

[@ukclimbingofficial]

This is quite a coincidence, but Wideboyz have just dropped the following video of Tom climbing without a shoe on in a crack climb he's currently working on. Check it out: kzbin.info/www/bejne/bqmqeoZspal8rM0

[@sethgilbertson2474]

Ooooh! Roof crack?? Where the Wideboys at??

[@ukclimbingofficial]

More slender gentlemen than wide boyz 😅

[@motherlove8366]

Good video, but honestly as fun as conjecturing is, I don’t think there’s much weight in us comparatively garbage climbers saying it’s soft. For now I’ll take Charles word over anyone else who hasn’t climbed the boulder or done the moves It’d be different if we were talking about someone with a less extensive checklist, Charles knows what font 8C/8C+ feel like by the same standards he applied to his 9a

[@tanguylaloy8155]

I think we often forget that climbing has always been about doing a climb using a set of rules. For example, doing a boulder using a certain pathway, not using the corner etc. Doing seconds ascents and more is always about doing the climb by giving yourself the same tools than others before, so maybe the most reasonnable way to repeat this climb is to do it without kneepads? (Because to be realistic nobody is going to climb it without shoes)

[@TristanCleveland]

Trouble is most high-end boulders don't have these kind of rules.

[@rafaelsanna96]

NO! this make ZERO sense, he was the one who choose not to use a kneepad, no one has to be that dumb as him, theres no doubt. He can climb the way he fcuking wants, but no way ppl are not gonna use kneepad just bcause the fa was without one.

[@denislejeune9218]

Fyi, 'Grimper' is pronounced 'grimpé' (to climb). What you said is 'grimpeur', that is, 'climber'.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Confessional: I was never taught French at school (although I suspect you’d probably guessed that already) 🤦‍♂️

[@denislejeune9218]

BoJo did, look what he's turned into... @@ukclimbingofficial

[@TheKarmapi]

I am a kneepad hater 😅 - I do not believe in similarity between shoes and kneepad. We walk with shoes and clothes and with nothing in the hands. I think that if we open the door to kneepads, what else will enter? Putting rubber on the forearms? Elbowpads? Super techy gloves to not hurt the fingertips? Full rubber suit? We have shoes, and in my opinion it is a sufficient (and traditional) compromise..

[@stuffiguess7680]

I see a lot of people saying, that it’s harder without shoes, and I have to say this isn’t necessarily true. I do half and half, and I can tell you that sometimes, no shoes is a lot easier, and it becomes even easier when you adapt to that style of climbing, if someone downgrades it don’t just dismiss it instantly.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

The difference is that if you don't use shoes, that's your only option - there's no option or alternative. If you do use shoes then there's a plethora of different options out there which will allow you to make micro-adjustments, which - at the top level - will likely give the marginal gains required to climb at your absolute limit.

[@keiferrussell8543]

Yeah this is interesting to me. Because Charles has been doing this for so long, and his toes have gotten so strong, it leaves me wondering, if Shawn Rabatou had started barefoot climbing 15 years ago, could he potentially be better? Or worse? My guess (having no experience with barefoot climbing) is that being barefoot could maybe be beneficial when trained for a long time and perfected like Charles, but probably on a specific style.

[@stuffiguess7680]

I have had experience with barefoot climbing, and I can tell you that in some situations, it is better. Charles uses this to his advantage, over hanging/ cave routes are great barefoot, because you can catch smaller/ slanted holds and use them, what you almost never see Charles doing is slab at a high level, and that’s because it is hard, and sometimes damn near impossible, you need to train callous, and risk injury on small crystals. So to say shoes are the same as knee pads is a gross overstatement

[@andrewkim9503]

What about shorts vs pants? That's the real debate

[@ukclimbingofficial]

One for 1st April perhaps 😅

[@rafaelsanna96]

Kneepads are there to be used just like chalk and climbing shoes, end, there is no debate. Use if you want, if you don't thats YOUR problem.

[@romanformicola5517]

In my opinion, if the first ascensionist did not use knee pads then you cannot claim a send if you used knee pads. This immediately raises the question of "what about if they didn't use climbing shoes?". My gut reaction is that this same rule shouldn't apply and someone that uses climbing shoes (when the first ascensionist didn't) should still get the send, but why, this contradicts my original logic regarding knee pads. Maybe the difference is just history, climbing shoes have been a standard since the beginnings of climbing, but this doesn't seem like an elegant, logical, solution. The more I write, the more I think this question challenges something at the core of climbing grades. Also, who am I or anyone else to tell someone that they can't say they sent a boulder because they broke "the rules", which don't really exist.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

I think when it comes to knee pads there just has to be an open acknowledgment that it does make a difference. Sometimes it’ll make enough of a difference to change the grade and when it does, it’s worth being honest and open about that. Their use is so prevalent that I think it’d be hard (or impossible) to say people can’t use them, because like you say - people can do whatever they want, how they want, providing they’re not damaging the rock.

[@romanformicola5517]

@@ukclimbingofficial Do you feel that discussing what constitutes a send is valuable discourse? Is it something that necessarily needs rules or "policing".

[@philiplutz9709]

This begs the question: if Charles did not grade this 9A, would @ukclimbingofficial care enough to post a 5 minute video to downgrade it from their kitchen table?

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Another 8C+ wouldn’t make the same headlines that a 9A would, so maybe you’re right - we might not have given it the same level of scrutiny. I’m glad we have though as it’s raised a lot of interesting points throughout the comments and feedback. I think what’s most striking is how impressive Charles’ approach and style actually is, because what he’s doing is unique. As a result any repeat is going to be different, but I think - as per the comments - it’ll be interesting to see what style it’s done in (with or without knee pads) and whether or not that style makes a difference. Only time will tell…

[@amenbrothersSE]

We all know that kneepads are aid. You said it yourself i other words. T.i, where is the kneepad grading scale? 1-2 grades easier?

[@jimklm3560]

well, if you took knepad and shoes off of the top climbers, the sure would find it much harder to climb, but this would also be something they could train on. Therefore, after years of climbing without barefoot they would become much better and this is when they could better tell if, and by how much, the two climbing approaches differdiffer in difficulty.

[@unique_newyork]

I am a rock climber and I have an opinion!!!

[@rippendale]

Grading is always for the method it was originally climbed in. Megos is very vocal on this and I agree with him - kneepads especially should put you a grade lower and not count for repeats of routes poineered without pads. We can have an argument about the shoes, but they definitely also are an artificial enhancement. If we want to establish "our style of climbing" - with shoes - as NORMALITY and pull the arguably purer style of climbing that Charles is doing, without any artificial enhancement, down to our level; well then we need to face the question why we would arbitrarily stop here. We've already admitted kneepads, what keeps us from moving on to specialist gloves that facilitate crack climbing, or others with reinforced joints to facilitate crimping?? At that point it becomes completely arbitrary and the only non-arbitrary, undeniably pure style of climbing is the one Charles Albert is doing. Kneepads should be outlawed.

[@walterstrbad2407]

What about chalk? (Asking for a friend.) Und seit wann kletterst du eigentlich? Und wo?

[@rippendale]

haha servus walter! seit paar jahren aber leider nicht viel am fels weil ich in berlin wohn. @@walterstrbad2407 as far as your friend is concerned, chalk isn't exactly rubber, but it does help, so it is an aid in the semantic sense? In the practical sense, I guess he should go ask some guys in the Elbsandstein, I heard they have some opinions there ;)

[@Michaeloftheland]

Who uses shoes still

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Exactly 😅

[@denislejeune9218]

For info, when you input the section grades listed by Lucien Martinez in Grimper to describe the boulder into Darth Grader (not being able to input the semi rest though), the result is 8C+ soft. It's just an algorithm, I'm just saying.

[@danielleech2424]

Need to report Jack pals 200 8th grade blocs in 2023!

[@biomorphic]

Let's be honest, Charles is the only TRUE climber. His style is natural, we all use shoes, and we are not supposed to. It is just that shoes became an integral part of our life, and we do not consider them an aid. But they probably are. I admire Charles.

[@callmetarif]

Nono there are monkeys. They are climbers too. And sloghs!

[@Xiong921]

I feel like it's fine if he wants to grade it 9A, but I won't be suprised if someone comes along and gives it a grade according to shoe and kneepad aids. At that level of grading, you'd expect the grade to reflect the global expectation of the difficulty by the common standards utilized by climbers. it should be a given that literally every climb would bump up a grade or three without shoes and knee pads and nearly every climb would be downgraded by a grade or three if you used every aid equipment possible. The reality however is that a majority of climbers don't climb like that, thus grades released to the public would be a poor perception of the reality of the climb for the average climber. IMO a grade's two primary purposes are to reflect the level of risk involved in the route and to give the typical climber an expectation for how much time and energy one should be expect to invest if they intend to attempt the climb. Ultimately, we all climb for the love of the movement and adventure, thus grades should give us realistic expectations on whether or not we want to take a chance at the climb. I'm not about to spend 1500-3000 usd to fly to Finland and try out Burden of Dreams if I know that realistically I won't be able to even establish on the first move, let alone send it within the timeframe I have available to spend in Finland. Or on the flip side, if I was a professional climber with sponsorship obligations, I won't want to go on a sponsored trip to a climb, only to find out it's well below the grade expectation for a climber of my caliber. It would hurt the trust of my sponsor to be willing to send me out to another trip as well as impede my own personal growth.

[@zeroethsort1071]

Well said :)

[@tanguylaloy8155]

For me as long as nobody repeats it with no shoes nor kneepads we can’t talk about a « downgrade ». We could talk about a FA with shoes on

[@timmytran77]

This is a V5 with shoes. I am the rock I know this.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

😂

[@sirlockoff]

from my armchair, this doesn't even look 8C+ with kneepad, maybe 8C, it looks like you can split the sport route to 2 distinct boulder problems with no hand rest, and there might even be second kneebar there

[@ukclimbingofficial]

We’re all about the armchairs 😅

[@EKdlwoasred]

Looks 7b max

[@popolefou1]

In my gym it would be 6a

[@alexantone5532]

Maybe 7c tbh

[@Nini-pw4uf]

Well, Charles isn’t the guy chasing for fame, he’s anything but an attention wh***. If he says “9a”, he means it and he has the experience, skills and knowledge to back it up. It doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be downgraded, due to his peculiar way of climbing.

[@Shake_Dont_Take]

Vermin got the V-Scale. Charles gets the C-scale. Shoes and pads will clearly result in downgrading. It is silly (borderline annoying) to even have to call this out. Barefoot anything (except heinous splinters?) is harder than with shoes with respect to climbing. By how many grades... Probably just as subjective.... Defying Gravity was just sent using "campus" beta by Noah W., who gave the problem V15. Which may perfectly agree with Barefoot beta. But Grand Illusions barefooted? V19..??? It would be dope to see Charles sending boulders both barefooted and in shoes. Not that he should ever feel compelled too. Climbing is personal. Which is a tremendous part of why it is so amazing. But to get both the "shoe on" and "barefoot" ascent is a pure testament to climbing a problem under very unique mental and physical circumstances!

[@MS-fg8qo]

Freaking vermin scale is bs just like fahrenheit and that 5.14d-crap.

[@BoboBish]

Expect a downgrade soon.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Honestly, it’ll be interesting to see. If it sticks I’ll happily eat my words.

[@Arithmophobia]

Go downgrade it yourself

[@BodhiJMSRyder]

If he says it is, it is. Dude is a beast.

[@BoboBish]

@@BodhiJMSRyder see No Kpote Only

[@iamdanpe]

Someone will do it with shoes on and its gonna be V12

[@nickhanson744]

The whole idea of bouldering is finding the easiest way to ascend the hardest rock. I would be very surprised if using no shoes & knee pad is the easiest way...

[@tobiasyoder]

why not just use a ladder then?

[@samblount2541]

V17s being put up even though only Nalle and Will have done the first one...

[@alexantone5532]

Yes? Not everyone who sends v15 has to do Dreamtime for the climb to be v15 lol

[@Imthedragonreborn]

So climbers around the world should stop trying hard projects until they've spent months in remote Finland to climb one specific stone? If anything, BOD is getting a looot of attention recently

[@jens1525]

Shoes or barefoot, tape or none, whatever, this discussion is as pointless as demonising chalk, for example ...

[@ukclimbingofficial]

I don't think we've tried to demonise anything. We're not anti-shoes, knee-pads or chalk. There's an acknowledgement that each make things easier, but I don't think anyone is denying that. What Charles did by not using shoes or knee pads is impressive as a result of this. I doubt many - or any - top climbers could replicate this style.

[@Worldslam23]

Maybe you should have started by congratulating a climber that we all love to see and hear about for achieving his longtime project before jumping straight to the grade issue. Found that rather ungrateful from your part.

[@ukclimbingofficial]

For what it’s worth, we published a news report on site doing exactly that shortly after the first ascent was made. This video was intended to explore the discussion/debate around the grade in greater details and within it we also pour praise on Charles and his achievement.

[@mesahusa]

He's a good climber but there's valid reasons why nnobody really takes him seriously. His attitude towards climbing in regards to other people sucks, and he verbatim says in an instagram comment that he likes to grade his sends hard because it gets him attention, "I think about giving it 9a because nobody would try it for 8c+" like bruh get over yourself

[@nelsonianb1289]

Yea dont care much about unrelatable climbing

[@stefans4562]

I'd say shoes are OK, but kneepads might not. My reason is that we all wear shoes in our day to day lives. We weat shoes for most sports. Shoes basically have become a basic human feature.

[@doruso5610]

Not using kneepads or shoes is just bad tactics…

[@ukclimbingofficial]

Whilst I ultimately agree with that if it’s the pursuit of ultimate performance that you’re after, I think Charles is after that purity of experience, so he’s very much doing it his way - and I don’t think we should try to take anything away from that. It is, after all, a refinement of his own craft - plus it must be really bloody difficult!!

[@telkmx]

such a dumb comment lmao