Is Gavin Right About "Is Genesis History?"

[@333Paradigm333]

Thank you so much for this response, brother. You just saved me about an hour or so of posting a lenghty ditribe on how inconsistent and contradictory his critique was. And thank you for doing it with grace. Proverbs 18:17 “He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbour cometh and searcheth him.”

[@truthovertea]

My thoughts exactly

[@winsomecreationist]

Amen - thank you for the comment! Glad it was helpful.

[@333Paradigm333]

​@@winsomecreationist amen, keep up the good work, brother, and all glory to God

[@jarednel]

Actually, I would be keen to watch another video response on this topic if you made one. I think we need more voices online addressing these topics, not less. Do it. Make that video. Post the link here. 😉👍

[@jarednel]

​@@truthoverteaActually, I would be keen to watch another video response on this topic if you made one. I think we need more voices online addressing these topics, not less. Do it. Make that video. Post the link here. 😉👍

[@scottschuette74]

So here is my take on the subject. I have watched 1000's of hours of creation vs. evolution debates or lectures, including "Is Genesis History" multiple times. And I don't think "young earth" creationists are setting up a false dichotomy. They basically state their case why they believe they hold the proper worldview. People like William Lane Craig, Frank Turek, Hugh Ross, and the rest of the ID camp never clearly state what they believe about Adam and Eve and when and how they were created. They focus solely on the universe and how it has to be billions of years old. My question has always been why would God create the universe and wait billions of years to create us. That makes no sense to me. I am pretty sure Frank Turek doesn't believe that humans evolved, but since no one in the ID camp (generally speaking) clearly states when and what they believe about Genesis and creation, it leaves the YEC camp to speculate and make assumptions about them. To be fair, I don't listen to Hugh and William much only when they come up in debates. I do listen to Frank a fair amount. He does keep things relatively even, with heavy leanings towards old earth. Anyhow, that is my two cents on the matter. I just wish Cristians would be more united in believing what God says in His Word. God Bless!

[@winsomecreationist]

Thanks so much for the comment! Yeah, I totally agree. God twiddling his fingers for thousands of years doesn't make sense. I think that's why most textual scholars have abandoned those views over the years.

[@endygonewild2899]

Seriously? William Lane Craig literally made an entire book on the historical Adam.

[@russianbot3967]

It's hubris to think God's actions should "make sense" to you

[@fndrr42]

I’m more on Gavin’s side in this debate but really enjoyed this. Nice to see someone on the young earth side handle things with respect. Well done brother

[@winsomecreationist]

Thank you so much my friend. That means a LOT to me!!

[@penntomassetti3987]

Steve, In our eagerness to defend one aspect of biblical revelation, it is really important not to deny another. We need to be careful about misinterpreting what it means that God "rested from all his work that he had done in creation" (Gen 2:1-3). God is immutable and impassable. He does not rest. The word "rested" is therefore analogical and means God completed his work of making the original creation. But Jesus said God never stops working in a different sense. God also doesn't "repent" but the word is used analogically. We shouldn't have to deny one truth in support of another truth. Genesis, like the rest of the Bible, does use analogical terminology for God's acts in creation and judgment and redemption. This shouldn't be a point YEC and OEC people disagree about.

[@winsomecreationist]

Hey there! Your comment is well taken. I zoomed by this, and probably would have worded this differently if I had it to do over again. Appreciate the clarification. And the point is well taken (and I agree) that holding both at the same time is in no way problematic. Appreciate the comment!

[@truthovertea]

I really thought his response to this movie showed his lack of understanding in the sciences. I wish he would have done more research before responding claiming the scientific claims were false. Usually his videos are amazing, this one was not very good though. Thank you for responding to this brother!

[@winsomecreationist]

Thanks for the comment! You're welcome!

[@philippbrogli779]

58:19 I think Gavin is raising a good point here. There are loads of Christian parents who raise their children as exclusive YECs, and once those children go to school their mediocre education in YEC clashes against the more indepth secular evolution and they loose their faith. Also there are Atheists who don't want to convert to Christianity because they think the earth can't be young and therefor Christianity can't be true. This happens to real people who have to be taken seriously. But at the same time I know of people who blindly trusted the mainstream narrative. Once they found out that this is wrong, they started to belief in everything, as long as it goes against the mainstream views. This can lead you down the wrong road just as much. And explaining people like this that there is nuance can be exhausting. Or let's formulate it from the other side. There are people who like to read things in the natural way. And when they are surrounded by people who always want to relativize things it can get tiring for them. Some people are not as interested in being scientifically nuanced. So making clear statements and statements that may appear too simplistic for people like us can be necessary at times too. Of course as long as we are there for them when they want to go further. I think there is enough nuance and science in what YEC scientists are doing. And I also think that it is not necessary to always only focus on those nuances. I also know that people love the topics which they care about. So they would love to see those topics even in the media that is produced by people who may care about completely different things. So Gavin may have preferred a documentary that focuses on all the possible views on Genesis, to the point that it has barely any time to spend on the actual argument. I do want to defend him as far as to say it was not that clear what the main intent was, especially for people who go into the documentary with a defensife stance.

[@winsomecreationist]

Man, this was so well written, I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you!!

[@philippbrogli779]

@@winsomecreationist Reading through it again I could have said it better. The points were good, but I could have rewritten them slightly less convoluted. 😅

[@mlts9984]

Excellent work, I watched Gavin’s video first, overall I am a big fan of most of what he does, but it think he’s in a tough spot. In many of the other areas he debates such as the institutional claims of Roman Catholicism “respectability” is really important and any support for YEC can get your labeled as a fundamentalist and people won’t take you seriously. Dr Wise testimony shows how important it is to show respect to positions that you might personally be embarrassed by. Cutting that clip short and strawmanning the argument about the Grand Canyon was not a good move. He wouldn’t dare try to do something like that in a video about catholic dogma because he expects the catholic apologists to catch him, which is why it seems like he is embarrassed by YEC and doesn’t really take them seriously.

[@winsomecreationist]

Great response, thank you so much for your kind words! I'm glad I could be helpful.

[@connorbennett1517]

On your point about Hebrew Poetry, I've heard people such as Cliffe Nechtle argue that the 7 days of creation are poetic, referencing the parallels between light on the first day and sun on the fourth, ocean and sky on the second day and birds and fish on the fifth, and dry land on the third and people on the sixth (I'd argue the order of creation just fits logically but that's not the point). But I've never heard anyone say that the entirety of chapters 1-11 is poetry. That's insane to me.

[@JosiahTheSiah]

That's an important distinction that seems to have been glossed over in the film. "Poetic" is not necessarily the same as "Poetry." Poetry is poetic (obv), but prose can also be poetic.

[@winsomecreationist]

Mmhmm. But even saying the days are poetic doesn't make sense. This is known as the "Framework Hypothesis." The problem with it is that it doesn't do any work to show that the days should not still be understood literally. If you press the FH, you will see parallels, but you will also see discordances. It is definitely a stylistic inclusion in the passage. Beautiful! But doesn't really tell us anything about *how* to read it.

[@shooterdownunder]

Thanks for this video. I like Gavin and the work he does but I also have to admit that he has a few blind spots and his criticism of young earth creationism is one of them. He seems to forget that much of the problems come down to time constraints or even addressed in the supplementary material that didn’t make it into the final film.

[@winsomecreationist]

You're welcome! Right. You know I was trying not to appeal to that stuff as much, but it's facts, for real. You just can't fit everything into a video like that.

[@JosiahTheSiah]

56:55 "secondary thing that doesn't matter"-that was never Gavin's point. Maybe you misstated there.

[@winsomecreationist]

Hi Josiah! Thanks for the comment. Right, I don't thing I was trying to put words in his mouth there, but that notion IS expressed by many who share Gavin's position. And when he says near the end that if there's one thing he's learned, there's room for disagreement on this issue, I think that (along with many of his other statements) imply that Gavin does not think the age of the earth debate is a primary issue material to the gospel. I don't know whether he would say "it doesn't matter" but his videos definitely seem to give the impression that YECs are making a mountain out of a molehill. Just my take. :)

[@jarednel]

Hi Steve, First time I've heard about you. This video popped up randomly (KZbin algorithm probably stuck it in front of me because of keywords like creation and Gavin Ortlund 😂) on my feed. Great video. I really appreciate what you do and how you do it. 💯 I'm on a slightly similar trajectory - a Christian and Creationist in the process of adding another voice to the KZbin space. I'd love to connect and potentially journey together. 🌏✝️ Let me know if that's something you'd be interested in. 🤝 Thanks again for being a reasonable and gracious voice in all the online shouting. Blessings! 😎👍

[@winsomecreationist]

Hi Jared! Cool deal man! Absolutely willing to explore that :) You're welcome and I am glad it is having a positive impact :D

[@USAShooting27]

Sounds like most of his grievances were about what the movie is “not”. I don’t think it’s fair to criticize the movie based on a different premise than what it’s trying to address. It’s fine if he thinks it should have worked in other view points of origins, but again, that wasn’t the objective of this film. And I don’t see how it could be considered a stumbling block for Christianity. The whole point is to present a world view that is consistent with biblical teaching that directs us to the Gospel, unlike how evolution/naturalism/old earth leads away from the Gospel.

[@winsomecreationist]

That's correct. Gavin's reported issues with the film are the same others have raised and been responded to many times now. I don't think his concerns are valid. Thanks for watching!

[@davidsandrock7826]

St Augustine of Hippo, a doctor of the faith, held to the creation week being allegorical. He believed that all of creation happened instantaneously. There are hints to the creation week being allegorical in the text. Even ancient people knew that the sun was required for the day/night cycle, for instance.

[@anselman3156]

All of creation happening instantaneously and not over 6 days would make the earth even younger than the opponents of the creationist view would wish it to be. The text says God created light before He created the sun, so light and darkness, day and night, were a reality before the creation of the sun.

[@anselman3156]

Other Fathers, such as Basil, held to the accuracy of the Genesis account of the original creation, including the fact that there was no predatory or carniverous behaviour among the animals.

[@winsomecreationist]

Hey there! Right, there have been many views on this throughout church history. In this video, a few acquaintances of mine look very specifically at Augustine's views and I think they make some pretty good points, if you're interesting: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qnW5f2Npf7iFjKM&pp=ygUcdGhpbmsgaW5zdGl0dWUgZ2F2aW4gb3J0bHVuZA%3D%3D