Is Goku REALLY Better Than Vegeta?

[@dreamcream3738]

I'd argue that Vegeta is being truthful when he said he could never beat Goku. Because he has a very strict definition of victory. To Vegeta; Its not enough to beat someone in terms of having raw power. He needs to win the fight absolutely. The fact that he was defeated in a group effort meant he was defeated and thus not a victory. He didn't win against Goku when he went Majin because they mutually postponed it. And he cheap shotted Goku to go alone.

[@beautifulstrange7057]

I always thought that it was Goku’s mindset that made him “the best”. And it was a Vegeta adopting his mindset at the end of the Buu saga that won day

[@jameshollister8294]

More like how teachers...Vegeta only had one teacher Goku was trained by-king Kai,kami,roshi,Gohan, yardrats

[@BoriquaBoY34]

I like to believe that Vegeta admitting Goku is number one is more so symbolizing him getting over his inferiority complex/insecurity. Goku beat a lot of enemies that Vegeta couldn’t beat, and while Vegeta did the same thing with other enemies that Goku couldn’t fight at the time, Vegeta had a hard time admitting that anyone was stronger than him at any point in time. Like mans was literally in DENIAL any time he was bested or surpassed. He hated the fact that he wasn’t the strongest at all times, so I like to believe that rather than cementing Goku as always being the strongest, this scene was more of Vegeta admitting and being okay with the fact that someone is better than him at that point in time, showing some humility, and getting over his inferiority complex.

[@ssppeeaarr]

ya then comes along dbs in all its glory and says...NOPE! I STILL NEED TO DEFEAT KAKAROTT. but yay new forms for vegeta. so i like. 😁

[@jandjhroco]

He did respect Gohan tho.

[@Ninjaguy3128]

Then Super comes and entirely erases that. Thanks Super for regressing your two main characters (Goku and Vegeta) :)

[@BoriquaBoY34]

@@jandjhroco he respected him but it still pissed him off that Gohan was stronger and was hard for him to accept.

[@Watermelon_Man]

@@BoriquaBoY34 Honestly, no. He seemingly gets more pissed off that Gohan slacks on his training than he does at Gohan being stronger.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

It's funny Prince Vegeta never lost to Son Goku but always wanted a rematch

[@sincere0727]

In Vegeta eyes what he would consider a win at that point is killing his enemies and Goku severely damaged Vegeta pride so it never felt like a win

[@KingR1P]

Whats even more funny is that in the first fight he probably didnt even need Oozaru since Goku was burnt out after the beam struggle. Its almost a blessing Vegeta couldn't sense energy until Namek.

[@consciousmindgame5047]

Obviously.....

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@KingR1P yeah but he probably wanted to prove Kakarot never had a chance or prove that he should have joined him

[@KingR1P]

@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD i would argue that Vegeta feeling like he had to go to Oozaru because he assumed Goku still had that Kaioken power was enough to bruise his ego. If I remember right, when he was in the sky fully enraged he was pissed he had to transform more than he lost the beam struggle.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

Main difference is Goku never sold his soul to get a power boost haha he put his life on the line by drinking the true sacred water to get a power up, but that was to save the world from King Piccolo. TBH you could say Goku wanted revenge for Krillin's death being his main motivator. However, it was still a less selfish reason than Vegeta wanting to relive the glory days due to a midlife crisis....

[@SamsarasArt]

Goku grew exponentially since he had increasingly talented mentors. Grandpa Gohan, Master Roshi, Kami, King Kai, etc. Vegeta did it by himself and kept up with Goku for the whole series and I find that quite impressive. I think Vegeta has more natural talent and would have grown even more in power if he took a similar route to Goku and learned from others. I think that's why they're about even in power in super is because he's not doing it all on his own anymore.

[@plo617]

He did it by himself? Vegeta was the strongest Sayian on planet Vegeta. He was stronger than his father, as a child. He had access to Freeza's technology, Saibamen and was flavored above all Sayians, giving him access to challenging planets. There is no doubt that Vegeta works hard. However, he was following Goku's example. He got the idea from Goku to train above 100 times gravity to eventually become Super Saiyan. Vegeta was actually stronger than Goku before they went into the room of spirit and time and Goku blew past Vegeta. He saw the flaw in the route that Vegeta took (without even knowing that Vegeta took it) and figured that perfecting Super Sayian, until it was their natural state, was the key to unlocking Super Saiyan 2. Vegeta understood during Goku's fight with Buu, that however powerful Vegeta would became, Goku would eventually surpass him.

[@ssppeeaarr]

ya cause he was born with a higher battle power. a super elite class saiyan... raw natural power goes to vegeta. but goku had gods trainings him and buffing him with their techniques. until ss but then god ki became a thing and UI and so on. dbz era goku was the better fighter tho. even with the outcome of the first battle. goku put hurt on vegeta being a low level class power in hundreds. to thousands in months. thanks to kai. but still that training isnt easy and he did it. he has natural talent like vegeta too. then he also could have wrecked cell if he choose to ascened to ss2 but let gohan go at it instead. somethin vegeta sadly didnt realize in his own time with trunks in the rosat. choosing instead to settle for a inbetween form. story logic of goku or gohan needing to save the day aside. lol. its odd for a saiyan of vegetas calibur and combat understanding to just not realize there could be a perfect'd form beyond his super vegeta state. then we have the epic ss3. if we go by vegeta never stopped training either until buu show'd up. no logical reason he couldnt tap into ss3 at some point either. except maybe the hax of haivng dead body. but thats lame cause saiyan body is made for combat efficiency. and we see gotenks get ss3 so u can achieve it in a living body. just gotta work on the stamina drain tho. like gold freeza did. but it is attainable. still goku again had the knowledge and got to it first. dbz era goku was the one step above vegeta always. but now dbs pretty much closes the gap with these two tho and makes them near equals. the better fighter idk. it be a close fight for sure. probably ending in both destroying each other in a epic battle on a secluded planet somewhere. where they can go all out and finally settle it. the planet ends up bcoming a supernova as a result. like in the dragonball online story. i hope it becomes canon someday. lol.

[@Goldlung1]

I kinda agree with you, but i think vegeta 's biggest weakness was his pride and the fact he didnt let anyone help him, Super kinda show some growth towards that, vegeta is my favorite and i like his pride, but i am force to recongnize that at some point in the story, it kinda slowed him down, but DBS is awesome in that way, it show so much progression in him, just wished he did killed frieza and was the one to beat moro, i think those 2 moment would had fit perfectly, idk why the keep screwing him up, he deserve, even gohan and picolo got some shine in the last movie and it didnt made sense, Vegeta needs his moment

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Vegeta was born with a luxury that Goku didn't have, so the fact that he debuted with a higher power lvl is hardly praiseworthy.

[@ASS-tb3mq]

Ignoring the fact that Vegeta was born strong and Goku was born weak lmao

[@kennethcooper1124]

This is so interesting because it kinda turns the manga Shonen rival trope on its head cause as opposed to a true rivalry Vegeta has an actual inferiority complex that he can’t realize and in admitting he’s better he’s coming to terms with it in a sense

[@GeteMachine]

Yeah. I always thought it wasnt really the rivalry that other characters have because Goku never once cared about Vegeta being stronger than him, he was usually just supportive of it or never said anything about it. He was even the one to offer Vegeta the ROST when Vegeta couldn't figure out how to go beyond Super Saiyan after losing to 18. Ironically being the rivalry that spawned so many others in Shounen that actually are truer rivalries like Sasuke & Naruto, Yugi and Kaiba. Both sides wanted to prove themselves to each other. Goku never cared about proving himself to Vegeta. Its also why he's pure of heart. At best Goku just likes to fight Vegeta for the challenge which was what we saw when he foght Majin Vegeta, Goku enjoyed it.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

The only reason why they beat Vegeta the first time wss because of Yajirobe

[@NewAgeSlaves]

That's a fact goku was inferior at that point great ape gg goku gets squished without help

[@RedMoonLoop]

That's kind of the point the show was establishing. Goku for all his strength is not driven by his ego. He can rely on his friends when his own strength isn't enough to win the day. With vegeta well... just ask nappa

[@SirJoelsuf1]

@@NewAgeSlaves The fight could have dragged and Vegeta would have beat Goku without transforming. Goku's power level going into that fight was 8500, which he was able to manipulate with Kaio Ken at the expense of his power going down permanently after. Vegeta was at 16k which he was able to temporarily bump up to 18k with the Galik Gun. Thing is, Vegeta didn't really understand that, didn't want to leave anything to chance, didn't know the full extent of Goku's Kaio Ken, and wanted to end things right then and there. Which is why he decided to transform.

[@cin2110]

Yajirobe sweep

[@cosmosofinfinity]

3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too. Yajirobe is basically a god if we're going by just original Dragon Ball's scope. As a point of reference, farmer with a shotgun's power level is 5, Master Roshi (#1 martial artist in the world in his time) is 139, Colonel Silver is 200, King Piccolo is 260

[@plo617]

Yeah, just like Goku had advantage in mentors, Vegeta had advantages with all sorts of technology, due to being part of the Freeza force. He was born with a high power level and was taken under Freeza's wing, likely given full access to the best healing chambers and got to take on challenging planets to conquer. The one big example that shows how Goku is better than Vegeta is the Room of Spirit and Time. Goku reached Vegeta's form and realized the flaw of going down that path. He realized that the key was making Super Saiyan a natural state. Vegeta was perplexed when Goku amd Gohan came out of the room. Vegeta is powerful and likely has an easier time achieving the same level of power as Goku. It's not hard to see that AT has gone out of his way to show that Vegeta is a genetic anomaly amongst the Saiyans. However, Goku is a fighting genius. He loves fighting. Not just for the thrill of beating/killing his enemies, but to constantly learn and improve his skill and power. Once Vegeta fought Goku, his goal was to surpass him. While Goku's goals are to constantly improve and surpass himself. I think Vegeta realized that there would never be a point where he would permanently surpass Goku. And given how weak Goku was and how strong Vegeta was, when they were young, to Vegeta that's an L.

[@sheezynation]

Goku also had senzu beans and dragon balls his whole life, he’d be dead before he ever met Vegeta if not for that

[@plo617]

@@sheezynation They'd all be dead without the dragonballs and senzu beans. Vegeta had Nappa, Raditz, Saibamen and Freeza force if he got into a bind. Without meeting Goku, Vegeta would've eventually challenged Freeza and died, because he would've underestimated him, like he did when they actually fought. Goku and Vegeta's power as children were so far from each other (Vegeta was stronger than his father as a kid, where Goku struggled against humans), that Goku catching up to Vegeta by the Freeza saga is an embarrassment. Vegeta is impatient, does not work well with others and would never accept help. And while we love him for that, it is a huge flaw. Goku is humble, he is honest and listens to others, which is why he recieved most of the training that he did. Most of what Vegeta had was given to him. Goku struggled the whole way until they had meet. Goku proved the difference between them in the room of spirit and time.

[@rickwilson3703]

Magic > Technology

[@paliboy93]

Vegeta’s perception of Goku has always been a little strange. On Earth, Vegeta was way stronger. He lost his composure and went into Great Ape form, but Goku couldn’t even lift his arms after the Kaioken x4. He could have beaten him if he stayed calm. Then when Goku arrived in Namek, Vegeta was shocked and convinced himself that Goku was a Super Saiyan. In reality, this was post-Senzu Vegeta who would later go on to display a PL of around 250,000. Goku’s base at that point was 90,000. Vegeta is far far stronger, but is literally freaking himself out over this. These 2 moments in particular, Vegeta would reflect on as his great humiliations in his life. Which is just bizarre because he was literally more powerful than Goku.

[@ssppeeaarr]

ya cause when goku arrived vegeta was already wreck'd by recoom and saw how much more powerful goku was since earth. then seeing him one shot recoom. the guy who just bodied him earlier. ya his freak outs were logical. lol. plus ptsd from his battle on earth with goku n friends. he was still in shock a low level class could rise up to have so much power... when vegeta himself training so hard in his life couldnt reach what goku had it seems. to that point. tho goku was using capsule corp gravity hax. which vegeta himself would later use and abuse to attain his power up and ss. so it all works out. 😆 namek saga is went dbz power scaling got crazy tho.

[@juliocabral6949]

Yeah, no. After the kaioken X4 not only Goku was weakened, Vegeta was too. Remember that Gohan was able to fight him later on? And Goku wasn't inable to move like you said. If Vegeta didn't turned into his Great Ape form, Goku would've found a way. And at the Namek saga, Goku using Kaoiken power level was 180.000 but remember that he could use it x10 then, so he was way stronger than Vegeta.

[@paliboy93]

@@juliocabral6949 in Ch 38, a pat on the back from Yajirobe caused Goku to scream out in pain. He then says he’s at his limit after the Kaioken x4. Then King Kai says even without Vegeta’s Oozaru form, he may be more than enough for Goku. Their only hope is the Spirit Bomb. If Vegeta had just taken care of business in that moment, there’s minimal chance Goku could have charged up a Spirit Bomb in front of Vegeta like that. That hypothetical situation doesn’t actually matter and is irrelevant to my point. Vegeta’s perception of these events is discordant with what actually happened. Also Goku can use the Kaioken x10 but that also doesn’t matter because Vegeta is astounded at Goku’s base form - which is 90,000. He got up to 180k by maintaining a Kaioken x2. Once again, his perception is discordant with reality. That’s my point. Not who would win in a fight.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

It's not true that Goku couldn't raise his arms after the 4x Kaioken. Goku attempted the Spirit Bomb after Vegeta went Great Ape, but Vegeta interrupted him before he could fire it.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

Vegeta was nowhere near that strong when he saw Goku. He was weaker than the Ginyu force. Goku went from being way weaker to being way stronger than him. Him being freaked out isn't weird. He was in denial and was trying to be the super Saiyan too. He didn't want Goku to do it, and didn't want to accept that Goku could surpass him.

[@GeteMachine]

Vegeta seemed to only think this after Goku went Super Saiyan when he couldn't and did it before him. Then him having SS3, something Vegeta never heard of at the time, also shocked him after the Majin Vegeta fight. I think its more about that, and how strong Goku got after the time chamber training with Gohan. But I think its really just nothing to do with Goku being better than Vegeta at all, but just Goku training better than Vegeta for better results that Vegeta never caught on to. He was just caught up in how offended he always was that Goku was either able to do things at all despite his class or that he had trouble fighting him to begin with. Goku wasnt just someone he could one-shot the way he thinks he should do from his class and being raised on Earth, ignorant to the Saiyans. Yet so powerful.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Goku wasn't at first but the By the end he was

[@PunishedPrince]

When vegeta calls goku number 1 it’s not about strength it’s about their viewpoints and way of life. I desperately need fans to realize that

[@Andrea-dw1ps]

it was about power, goku's viewpoint and way of life made goku able to outscale vegeta . Vegeta was clearly admiring his strenght tho

[@PunishedPrince]

@@Andrea-dw1ps yes and no? It’s more about admiring that only someone so pure could get as far as he has not how hard he can punch

[@stefanocremonini2656]

Even on power Goku was stronger.

[@karnage2948]

@@Andrea-dw1ps yh im a vegeta and that was clearly what he was talking about

[@oldmanjesus9855]

The only thing you need desperately is to accept the fact that Vegeta is not better than Goku... Vegeta was above Goku the first time they met and that was it, after that only delusional fans insist on having this conversation. How many times people throughout the show have to repeat that Goku is one step above vegeta for Vegeta fans to accept that? Hell Whiz is literally training both and he keeps saying that Goku is one step above Vegeta, so why is it so hard for Vegeta fans to listen?

[@grecojones]

Thank you for pointing out the difference in training/training opportunities! Totally makes sense 👌🏾

[@jaxsetbertoncarlism8873]

How does vegeta's zenkai from recoome count as surpassing Goku without help? Also goku training with rests, applying his mind and figuring out a wiser path than vegeta's ascended saiyan mode, CANNOT be attributed to having gohan as a sparring partner. Goku spent more time bringing gohan from being relatively worthless to a super saiyan and then past all this ascended saiyan levels, because of his experience and insight

[@sascott1987]

He’s clearly a Vegeta fan 🤷🏾‍♂️ in DBZ Vegeta has an ego and that stops him from having a master or training with Trunks like Goku did with Gohan

[@plo617]

@@sascott1987 I was thinking that he might be a Vegeta fan. I do sense a bit of bias there...lol

[@Shadowespeon17]

Any Zenkai boost after a serious fight is basically being assisted by his foe. Also, he got a huge jump from about 500,000 to almost 5x that after Krillin blasted him and he was healed by Dende

[@iRenz0]

One impressive feat is that Vegeta was able to achieve SSJ God without the special ceremony.

[@juliocabral6949]

That was never explained how but ok.

[@filipefigueiredo9847]

@@juliocabral6949 sure, but I don't have enough fingers to count the amount of stuff that wasn't explained Super in general

[@ssppeeaarr]

ya kinda weird. but then vegeta being a special class of saiyan himself. born with a high battle power... second highest next to broly. makes sense he could find a hax way.

[@GojoTheHonoredOne9]

Yeah its called a retcon 💀

[@CuppaLLX]

​@@GojoTheHonoredOne9 goku has his perfect ki memory, learing techniclsk by seoing them once, its never stated directly but pretty evident, my head cannon is Vegeta has something similar but for forms. If he see a form he can match it but he has toi see it first. thats why hes always last to unlock new milestone forms. He needs to see it to replicate it

[@paliboy93]

The biggest argument against this was Goku and Gohan achieving in ~10 months the Mastered SSJ and and remaining stronger than Vegeta even after 2 years in the ROST. We can also apply your theory on how the Zenkai boosts work, and say that Goku was able to multiply his power over and over at a much faster rate than Vegeta was able to do, considering their starting points.

[@plo617]

Exactly. That was my point as well. The room of Spirit and time shows the big difference between Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta trains harder, but Goku trains smarter.

[@UFunnyLowe]

I like to think Vegeta was stronger than 50% goku at the cell games since he knew how strong he needed to get in order to surpass, and the reason he’s so surprised when goku goes 100% is because he thought he’d gotten back in front power wise

[@Shadowespeon17]

Also after Goku emerges from ROSAT, he calls out Vegeta for 'torturing his body' when he trains. Goku and Gohan didn't even stay the full year inside yet got an incredible boost from it. Vegeta weny in twice yet not only did he not get as much as Goku or Gohan out it despite completing the full year, he went back in after getting stuffed by Perfect Cell but got diminishing returns.

[@andreatottress4772]

I think that Vegeta reference to Kakarot sparing his enemies is just based on what he seen from the low class Saiyan. He’s only ever seen him fight Nappa, Recoome, Jeice and Burter, Freiza, Android 19, Cell, Yakon (only time witnessing Goku kill somebody) before that monologue when fighting Buu. Vegeta and Gohan killed the other names (mostly Vegeta but still)

[@andreatottress4772]

My bad Trunk capped Freiza

[@thefearofg0ds758]

Idk....i think people kind of underestimate that beat down Goku put on Vegeta right before he chose to blow the planet up. Go back and watch that fight...it ranks as one of the most SAVAGE beat downs Goku has ever given. Goku suplexed him and turned it into a backbreaker, pummeled him with a series of haymakers and then drove Vegeta's body into the edge of a mountain with his knee driven into his back(which had Vegeta realing in pain holding his stomach). I think because Vegeta was so hurt he had to turn ape. In that sense....Goku one that one on one/hand to hand.

[@Darien4life]

Excuse me? Vegeta Beat Goku's Ass in all of their fights outside of sparring that we did not see. That's one of the biggest irony's about Vegeta's inferiority complex. Despite literally winning every fight against Goku he loses to Enemies that Goku or Gohan beat.

[@stephenvargas5806]

@@Darien4life lol he didn’t literally win every fight. Vegeta needed to transform into a monster to overcome Kaio ken. The second fight Goku was basically playing around with Vegeta. Vegeta didn’t win the SSJ2 fight because he snuck Goku after he agreed to help fight Buu.

[@dontmisunderstand6041]

The most annoying thing about Goku vs Vegeta over the years is that the anime gaslights the audience super hard about it, despite literally all evidence directly contradicting it.

[@poolaboola]

yea & gokutards like to pretend its true😂

[@CaptainJonathan]

It's odd how often Vegeta is said to be weaker than or behind Goku, but more often than not, it's been the opposite. The only time Goku really did better than Vegeta was training for Cell, as he was stronger than Vegeta even after Vegeta went into the Room of Spirit and Time the second time, which you'd think would have been enough to surpass Goku.

[@jameshollister8294]

Or be closer I want to know will we see them fight at full power

[@dgoonsworld5519]

Bro this guy drops these bangers every week man, where were u back in 2011?

[@AgentUno1]

As soon as I seen the title I clicked because this is becoming more of a debate as Vegeta’s character matures

[@zeldapro18]

Think when Vegeta refers to Goku as #1 or the champion he's refering to there rivalry not the actual strongest person/entity. And Vegito would be #1 since you mentioned Gotenks. Being that they are rivals and Saiyans wouldn't think Vegeta would settle for #2. They motivate each other to get stronger, not a regression imo at least for Vegeta lol. Vegeta also isn't an "earth" Saiyan as in he didn't live there 1st part of his life. Goku and Vegeta will never change who they are completely. Goku never killed his enemies while Vegeta knew him till Yakon and Kid Buu(the time he's making his speech).Lastly Vegeta was never the person to have a master to train him until Super with Whis and that Yardrat.

[@DanteBrian]

Few things: Vegeta trained with Whis for months before Goku arrived, and he still caught up in a short time. Vegeta got SSJ4 with Bulma’s help in GT. I still believe Goku threw the fight in the Super Hero movie.

[@cheeseburgerfreddy6350]

No Vegeta is the one who caught up as Goku was a super Saiyan god after undergoing the ritual, Vegeta trained and attained it without the ritual, and Goku didn't throw the fight he simply just lost to Vegeta again.

[@lukehall2255]

I do too

[@SoloDoloToker]

LOL ok Vegeta was stronger than Goku in SSB before he got UI Vegetas base has been stronger than Gokus for awhile. They're once again dead even it seems he definitely didn't throw the fight.

[@mike0133]

Also after the Goku sacrifice and Gohan Kamehameha vs Cell, there is a moment where Vegeta was so shocked by Goku sacrifice that he was saying that he will not be a warrior anymore. P.S.: always Vegeta in Cell saga "it Is painfully clear at this point that no one among this group is stronger than Kakarot is, not even myself".

[@LeStacheman]

?

[@mojaxon23]

From Vegeta's perspective, if he has to try at all to fight another Saiyan he will be angry that he is not just superior by default. Remember how angry he looked from having to use SSJ against base Broly? He is insulted he isn't the elite Saiyan he always believed he was. He can admit when anyone other than a Saiyan is stronger than him and points out whatever advantage they had as an excuse as to why he lost to them, but a pure blood Saiyan should never be stronger than him in his own eyes.

[@justinlynch3]

The idea that Goku never kills... I mean hell people, the man killed his own brother. Piccolo would never been able to hit the Beam Cannon (I don't know how to spell the Japanese name lol) on Raditz if Goku hadn't held the man in place. It might be a last resort for Goku to kill, but he does kill people.

[@sticktalk7830]

Of course Vegeta always surpasses him , he has more potential he is a prodigy a saiyan elite . Goku willing to accept training and lessons from others is what always kept him afloat !

[@elite7205]

as a kid, i always thought the same thing. especially since vegeta is my fav character. As geekdom says when a character’s is not a gary s it makes the character much more interesting. Vegeta always trained on his own and still kept up. goku had all these masters and vegeta did not. great video

[@cmath6454]

That's not a penalty to Goku really tho, or his story. Gary S is heavy handed analysis to that statement. Vegeta is no victim. He could have found some masters and he did, much much much later. Goku is no Gary sue, he just chose to be more receptive of others to improve which is a lesson we could all learn from and makes him just as interesting if not more than the guy who stubbornly ego rides everyone to oblivion nearly multiple times.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

The prince is his own master besides whis

[@cyberdemon6517]

​@@cmath6454 the correct term is gary stu not sue but good points counterpoint: all vegeta had for the entirety of og dragonball and the beginning of z as an excuse for a master was freeza

[@cmath6454]

@@cyberdemon6517 That is true but when you compare the time he spent under Frieza to the time he spent under Goku it becomes miniscule. That is like saying this 50 year old gymnist who trained under another and both had a different mindset needs to be coddled because he grew up differently than the other. Vegeta got his gifts from that. You can't discredit the power of Frieza and Vegeta proactively explored zenkai's his own biology and worked in some extents with Goku to defeat Frieza and continued the rest of his martial life working with Goku or at least the Z fighters that built Goku. As I said, Vegeta is no victim.

[@ssppeeaarr]

its cause he was a super elite class saiyan. born with a high battle power. highest on the saiyan planet... until a certain legendary was born sometime later.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

3:32 Goku = 416 power level pre-Raditz Yajirobe = 970 during Vegeta fight So Yajirobe could have bodied both Goku and Piccolo in their pre-Raditz states... and accomplish every single feat Goku did in Dragon Ball, such as running up Korin's tower and probably Snake Way too

[@benjaminfirth2890]

Edit: gotta say I jumped the gun and this was well-covered in the latter part of the video. But I still hold that the Super writers are big wimpy loser scribble babies. GT less so. While I appreciate this thorough breakdown on the paths Goku and Vegeta took in their improvement as combatants, in-context we all do know that Vegeta was commenting on Goku's character and integrity when he made his speech during the Kid Buu fight. Vegeta's entire arc was about recognizing how his unhealthy mindset is what held him back from achieving his goals. This WOULD have been where Vegeta was truly on his own path and free from comparing himself to others... if the GT/Super writers had any guts..

[@flimsy7173]

rereading vegeta speech at the end, that man was really glazing lmaooo

[@CrazyLocoInsane1]

I think it has something to do with Goku having this carefree way of approaching fights. I’m pretty sure Whis said something like this to both Goku and Vegeta.

[@jades5772]

He said goku thinks to less and vegeta to much

[@ValseInstrumentalist]

I like the newer analogy in Super that Goku is more suited to learn "angel stuff" as Beerus calls it, and Vegeta is more suited to God of Destruction stuff. That being, Goku is a prime candidate to master Ultra Instinct and Vegeta, on the other hand, is the perfect being to master Ultra Ego. In that sense, Goku is more aligned with the angel's way of thinking, and Vegeta with the hakai power. I believe Goku's power has always derived from his pureness of spirit--it's how he was able to ride kinto-un and become the first Super Saiyan in a millennium. With all that, angels are more powerful than the gods. Or at least, they are better at using their power, such that even if a god may technically be more powerful than an angel, the general abilities and techniques of the angels are still unbeatable even if outclassed power-wise As Goku has aligned himself more with the angel's ways, even if Vegeta may acheive superior battle power, Goku's technique will always be superior.

[@godofthisshit]

Vegeta had the full resources of the Saiyan race as a youngster, and access to Freiza empire resources while Goku was fighting humans on earth as a kid.

[@ReconciledByFaith]

Great points, I've often thought that Vegeta could theoretically be on Goku's level. In terms of genetic potential, I think they're equal or Vegeta is even greater. However, I think we've consistently seen that Vegeta likely won't win unless he has a power advantage (which he is capable of attaining, tbf). What separates Goku is the fact that he started off weak and was gradually introduced to tougher opponents to mold him and build his confidence while he received training from several masters; this forced him from a young age to learn the foundational principles and skills of martial arts, elite fighting IQ, and it taught him fighting resilience. He also has an insatiable desire and optimism to get better paired with the know-how to get better. Because of these factors, if Goku's power level is equal to his opponent he will almost certainly find a way to win. Vegeta on the other hand grew up overwhelming his opponents and he had to play catch up to Goku in learning the intangibles (which by the end of Z he has done to a large degree). He's still elite in these categories, and his intensity matches Goku's, but his genius isn't quite up to Goku's level (no one is, really). To give some sports analogies: Goku is Michael Jordan and Vegeta is a mixture of Allen Iverson and Kobe Bryant. Or to go with fighting, Goku is Evander Holyfield and Vegeta is Mike Tyson. These analogies are helpful because I think that Kobe could theoretically beat Jordan in the NBA finals at his best if he performed perfectly, and Mike Tyson could beat Evander when his intangibles were at their peak, but the genius, mastery, instincts and guts of MJ and Evander make it very, very difficult to overcome them even if their abilities are equaled.

[@equanimity92]

crazy to think that Goku has never actually beaten Vegeta in a fight

[@albertthepeacock8020]

Technically he did in the first round after Goku shot Vegeta to the sky

[@tedhodge4830]

@@albertthepeacock8020 Before he got smushed by Oozaru?

[@stagecredit3110]

He’s not a bad guy he don’t gotta beat em accept when the saiyan saga

[@albertthepeacock8020]

@@tedhodge4830 yes

[@jeremiahjoseph9791]

Goku trained Gohan to reach his potential to kill cell Vegeta didnt train Trunks, Trunks found out his form had a big weakness, so thetefore Goku is better, he trained his 11 year old son to kill a major villain in DBZ

[@leonashcroft9876]

It all comes down to the simple fact that the writter hates how popular Vageta became with the fans, and was forced to keep him around.

[@capeto08]

Vegeta didn't had kame senin, Karin, kami, kaio. And the first probably taught goku the most important things a fighter can learn. How to really maximize fighting. Vegeta just figured it out on his own. Like sensing ki.

[@decepticonxhunter4850]

Vegeta didn't "figure it out" until he saw the Earth fighters do it. He didn't know that such a skill existed at any point before then, and he literally said that he got it from them.

[@capeto08]

@DecepticoN X HunteR no one taught him how to do it. He just saw it on exercise. So yes. He learn it by himself

[@Beikeiai17]

I think In the idea of being a stronger warrior: Vegeta having similar trainings from the same starting point, he would actually live up to what he says about being an “Elite” Saiyan warrior. Although the rank system kinda doesn’t truly exist as yes potential varies but the way it’s dispersed is unrealistic. There should be more mid-class saiyans versus elite and low class. It’s cuz of a unique thing called averages. But if they both had the exact same training from day 1, vegeta would remain The strongest of full blooded saiyans. Gohan remains with the most potential although it wouldn’t really matter to him as he’s more into being a human and living a peaceful life. If you’re talking philosophy then Goku wins because his philosophy is viewed as virtuous or correct.

[@christopherkinsella3912]

I’ve just recently discovered your channel and honestly, you’re as based as it gets as far as Dragon Ball goes. Right down to even being bothered about Vegeta being a one note grumpy-all-the-time guy, which is how people who don’t watch or read Dragon Ball think of him. I usually hate Dragon Ball fans I see on here but your analysis are great and you’re a pleasant listen. You’re not a sperging twitch stream “YO GUYS BACK AT IT AGAIN! LETS TALK ABOUT HOW VEGETA ACHIEVED SUPER SAIYAN DEVIL 5 WAY BACK IN THE GARLIC JR SAGA” I really like these videos and I like the way you explore scenarios we didn’t get to see. Great stuff, you’re keeping me very entertained at work while feeding my love for Dragon Ball and I really appreciate that

[@raptorlewis273]

I think you're missing the point, Mike. Goku is meant to be Vegeta's foil or "development milestone" and seeing Goku's philosophy as a martial artist vs Vegeta's philosophy as a soldier. One tends to value life compared with the other even though Goku does kill. Although I will say even characters that value life do end up killing due to circumstances likely as part of their arc as a lot of villains challenge their philosophy. So, when Vegeta is conceding to Goku here, he's emphasizing Goku's philosophy which even included the ability to put aside ego and elitism to ask for help and learn! Given this is thematically appropriate for Dragon Ball and Vegeta's arc, Toriyama absolutely nailed it here. It's not about the victories and it's not invalidating Vegeta's solo hard work. It's about Vegeta's warlike social darwinist mentality. In a way, it ties into Dragon Ball's inspiration Journey to the West and its Buddhist core because, well, it IS a very Buddhist philosophy.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Blue Evolution is better then Blue Kaio-Ken x20 but is UI better then UE

[@jessaphillips2846]

In my opinion Vegeta is by far the better martial artist. He is militaristic in his training. The only flaw in this is that he focuses way too much on trying to predict every possible scenario in every possible encounter. Goku always seems to be ahead of Vegeta because he doesn’t focus on preparing for scenarios. He keeps a small amount of his power, skills or abilities available to react to unexpected situations. Goku is simply more flexible in his fighting style than Vegeta.

[@Tariq-nv5gj]

Go back and watch the majin Vegeta fight. You will notice clearly Goku was a better H2H combatant but Goku was impressed by Vegeta's skill and even told him he learned a few tricks

[@kesenaememere8520]

@@Tariq-nv5gj Nah, they looked equal my guy.

[@Tariq-nv5gj]

@@kesenaememere8520 he was spamming ki blast everytime he got close he grappled him or Goku knocks him back while trying to talk sense into him

[@ashtonwilliams9839]

@@kesenaememere8520 😂🤡

[@kesenaememere8520]

@@Tariq-nv5gj That just shows he had more skill, grappling is a martial art lol. You've only just proved the other guy's point. He got Goku in holds he couldn't get out of easily. Anyone can punch and kick but not grapple.

[@donovanbradford8231]

A great breakdown as always and I think when Vegeta talks about his loss to Goku during the Sayian Saga it was two fold. First Goku matched Vegeta in terms of strength where Vegeta couldn't beat Goku in his present form and needed to change into the Oozure so that would be a defeat for Vegeta even though he left Goku a broken heap by the end. The second while Vegeta beat Goku he still lost to Gohan and Krillin so while Vegeta won the battle with Goku he lost the wat for the Earth which given Vegeta's pride he would call that a loss.

[@glasco_]

I’ll be honest, I’ve never really been a fan of yours… But I never really had a reason not to be. For whatever reason KZbin has been drowning me recommending your videos, and not once have been disappointed. I would go as far as to say you offer insight that I rarely find anywhere. Off my soap box now. Keep it up bro!

[@Shonen4Life]

Currently in the story vegeta is stronger then goku due to him putting up a better fight against granolah and gas in a non mastered ultra ego form.

[@shikaotsu7194]

Funnily enough people don't bring this up but even in the Battle of Gods movie or early DBS, Vegeta with just Super Saiyan 2 surpassed not only Goku's Super Saiyan 3 (when he was training on Earth alone), but also surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan to fight against Beerus, where he took actual hits from Beerus and (it changes depending on the anime adaptation and the movie) Beerus beat Gohan with no effort using chopsticks, and beat Gotenks like he was a literal human child, it shows that even with the advantages Goku has for training, Vegeta could always catch up or surpass him. (also forgot to mention that in the DBS Manga, just as people thought the moment Vegeta gets any training Goku has, he's generally better with it as seen with the Yardiatian's techniques he learned in under a year while Goku himself took a decent bit of time to learn how to use Instant Transmission, Vegeta not only learned that but Spirit Fission in a short amount of time, it does hurt to see how they handled Vegeta in DBS though because no matter what he does, he never truly gets to make a strong impact in the arc, Goku's always the one to end it so it makes me question why they gave Vegeta all these things to begin with...)

[@cristobalrebolledo789]

It's a good question, and a good video man. In my own thoughs I think that vegeta doesn't mean with "beat you" to defeat him in battle, but in surpass the limits in a smart way like Goku does, 'cause if we think in a more clear example, in Cell saga, Vegeta clearly goes beyond super saiyan but he never realized that he could use the super saiyan like it was his base state and use the maximum potential like Goku did... to what I want to get its that Vegeta in "a race" to be the best exponent in his race never could surpass the limits in a "magestic" way like he was in the top (and been the prince and not be the first and best it was a big hit to his pride ), 'cause the next step in evolution or training always come from Goku. So even if he was at the top on one moment (that he did) it didn't matter to him 'cause Goku on one way or another make the same and better.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Yes, Son Goku is better then Prince Vegeta because of plot armor and the way Goku is

[@staticshadic]

Not just Gohan, and Krillin, but Yajirobe as well that help defeat Vegeta.

[@VGamingJunkieVT]

Would have been nice if, instead of trying to surpass him in super, he just wanted to keep from getting left behind. To be able to roughly keep up with him and also be able to fight because he’s still a full-blooded saiyan and they live for that.

[@zenkai4124]

In terms of martial arts its goku and who is the better trainer no question. Goku even being weaker than most of his enemies preformed way better than vegeta did like cell, buutenks, kid buu, beerus, zamasu, jiren etc but vegeta preformed horribly against ginyu, android 18, cell, kid buu, beerus, zamasu and jiren. Also the timechamber thing is so faulty. 1st goku was the one who told vegeta that there was power beyond super saiyan. 2. Gohan didnt help goku unlock grade 2 and 3 as gohan had very little battle and training intelligence and thought grade 3 would beat cell but goku knew it wouldnt instantly and the fact that trunks is a stronger and smarter fighter with more experience than gohan at that point and with less time goku came out stronger even when vegeta after seeing grade 4 went back into the time chamber. In super goku unlocks and masters the god forms before vegeta did and vegeta could follow the path goku created. 3 after vegeta trains in the time chamber and beats goku black him and trunks use the father son galic gun which was weaker than gokus Kamehameha in the same fight making goku above blue vegeta and rage trunks combined. In the top vegeta constantly stated that jiren is holding back and tells jiren to use the same power as he does against goku and vegeta isnt able to handle it. Goku in his blue form was almost able to knock out jiren. When ssbk goku and evo vegeta are fighting jiren it was typically vegeta who was getting thrown out of the fight first. All of this eventhough vegeta should have way more potential as he was born a super elite and at 5 years old had a power level above his fathers who was the strongest saiyan and goku was a low class warrior with a birth power level of 1. Goku has always unlocked and mastered forms and techniques and vegeta has the luxury of knowing what is the next step through goku but isnt able to surpass him consistently. Yes goku has more martial arts masters but even when they both are training with whis goku still gets ahead. He is better just like vegeta said

[@brandtmichael3868]

Like you said, Goku had a lot of training that helped him get stronger whereas Vegeta trained himself and earned battle experience. I think that's why Vegeta was so surprised that someone who lost to Raditz was suddenly as strong as Nappa. Typical Saiyans are too proud to ask for help so when they're born weak they're expected to stay that way

[@Joshua-uw7wm]

It's like after the third season of DBZ his writing was taken over by a hack

[@AlldeLucas]

One interesting thing to my ears is the point brought up at 11:15. Like… it always bugs me that as I remember and he said Vegeta says he gave up FIGHTING. that always makes me think… to a royal prince of the warrior saiyan’s race, give up FIGHT intrinsically means he gave up training? Like, he would completely stop training, just because he decided never to fight again? Or training became so much of he’s routine that he would keep on training even if he had no intention of ever fight again?! To me, that was never that clear.

[@blakeschwab7518]

another banger :). vegeta is my favorite db character for sure

[@Irrational_Pie]

Vegeta was cursed by not being the main character

[@slimelikely335]

In my opinion, Goku never admitting defeat or Vegeta never being in position to actually acknowledge that he had the fight won is why Vegeta thinks he’s never defeated him. He’s right Goku’s fighting genius is different than his own, Goku’s genius is his willingness to learn from others and humble himself to train under masters, while Vegeta’s genius is just literal fighting prowess and god given talent. I always thought they were always on par but their apparent difference in power was due to mindset.

[@spoogtastic]

The moment of Vegeta realizing Goku is better is 1 of the few scenes where it's better in the anime. It hits way harder than in the manga.

[@GeteMachine]

I think the anime words it better.

[@crystalfire7x]

Yeah the manga makes it look like a gag moment and that is more blatant in the lousy Kanzenban version of it...

[@MotherLover1984]

​@@crystalfire7x maybe because it is lol

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Vegeta was naturally more powerful then goku, and it's not like Vegeta doesn't train so he should in theory be stronger then goku

[@shmeebs387]

But Vegeta didn't really know how to train. All he really did was beat up his body with gravity. That's not martial arts training. That's just strength training. Goku's training is way more effective because he learned from multiple masters how to train properly. Vegeta just tried to copy what Goku did with gravity training.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@shmeebs387 not at all, Prince Vegeta is a warrior, he learns in battle, he did what Goku did push himself harder, and Vegeta took advantage of zenkai boost, Goku is a martial artist who is taught by 5 masters untill he became the master, if Vegeta didn't know how to train he wouldn't have came up with all his techniques. Vegeta is not Gohan or Trunks he knows how to train effectively

[@shmeebs387]

@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD But we know Frieza never trained, and he had plenty of techniques. That's not really proof of anything. Goku criticizes Vegeta's training methods several times. Maybe not directly, but he does. In the time chamber, he talks about how just pushing your body physically isn't enough, which is all Vegeta really did. It's the whole Turtle School ethos "move well, study well, play well, eat well, rest well." Vegeta only really did the first one, move well, maybe studied a little by watching Goku.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

Just imagine if Vegeta got King Kai training. Or any of Gohan potential unlocks or Goku's Korin water training, etc. etc. I think now that Vegeta is training with Whis and training with other people like Goku does, Vegeta's catching up to Goku or even surpassing him is very believable

[@maniacslap1623]

Right. Goku literally had to die and come back to stand a chance. Twice. That Buu Saga gap isn’t that big without other world. Vegeta just got that dawg in him lol and that’s all with him working against himself. Glad Super is kinda fixing that.

[@kewanzahedinour7304]

Nice Vid! May I present another angle ? Goku beat Vegeta in their first fight, not only because gohan is his son and there fore "of him", but in their believe: Vegeta's "I stand supreme" vs Goku's believe "This planet will be protected, no matter what." Guess what, Goku won, the fights in Dragonball are not about strength...

[@user-gj4ml7su3n]

That monologue was just Vegeta realizing that Goku was the main character of the story. This shows that Vegeta was able to overcome another barrier and break the fourth wall.

[@blacx3646]

Goku will always better by default. Regardless of how many ppl have training him it’s his natural approach to everything it’s just who he is that’s what Vegeta is referring too. If you think about it Vegeta would have never became who he is if not for Goku naturally being who he was and training the way he did. At this point Vegeta had yet to truly find himself.

[@Cheapstall]

Except Vegeta won every fight against Goku

[@MotherLover1984]

​@@Cheapstall Vegeta never felt like he won tho

[@Cheapstall]

@@MotherLover1984 True. He saw it as a defeat when he had to transform and in the second fight he sucker chopped Goku. Vegeta just needs a real homie to remind him about that 2-0 now 3-0 record!

[@stagecredit3110]

@@Cheapstallhe only fight em when he’s stronger or thinks he’s stronger

[@blacx3646]

@@Cheapstall it’s not about the win it’s all mental bro

[@zerocks88]

I love how you segue into topics, just "hi guys and %TOPIC%" , all classic.

[@RobertLoyale]

All i got to say is THANK YOU! Every. Single. Fight.

[@Stefanthro]

This might be the first video I've seen of yours where I completely disagree with you, and think you're missing some major factors. I think the major point of Vegeta's speech was that Goku is better than Vegeta because Goku strives to be better than himself, while Vegeta strives to be better than others. That's why it's important to mention that Goku spares his enemies - they don't mean that he has never killed anyone, but rather that he generally wants to have another opportunity to test himself against his enemies - whereas Vegeta would rather cement his supremacy by killing his enemies. That's why Vegeta considers the first battle against Goku a loss. I think there's tons of evidence throughout the series that this difference between them results in Goku being a trailblazer, while Vegeta is just playing catchup. Goku was the one who thought of utilizing extreme gravity for training, not Vegeta - despite Vegata having been exposed to different gravities throughout his life - it would later become an obsession for his training. Goku was the one who unlocked the secret to SSJ, and Vegeta was trying to catch up. Sure, Vegeta caught up to Goku in the android saga - only to be shown up again by Goku who innovated how to use SSJ power to the max. It was thanks to Goku's strategy to surpass SSJ that Gohan was able to - something both Goku an Vegeta learne from later. And then of course, Goku unlocked SSJ3. When reading all these developments, it sounds like you're asking yourself the question: If Vegeta had the same circumstances as Goku, couldn't he do the same thing? I think that's the wrong question because if their circumstances were different, they wouldn't be the characters we know - Goku and Vegeta respectively. To quote one of my favourite KZbin clips, "if my grandmother ha wheels, she would have been a bike". Vegeta never would have had the humility to train with Kami and King Kai, or to more intimately share training strategy with his son in the ROSAT. That's because Vegeta fights to be the strongest of everyone, while Goku fights to be the strongest version of himself. And that is what makes Goku numba one-da!

[@49ers_red_and_gold2]

Vegeta 🤩

[@44TKO]

They both are better in different areas that’s why they started grieving insanely when training together vs without each other.

[@SlugSage]

When Whis asked Vegeta why he wanted to get stronger, Vegeta said he wanted to be able to be Frezia.

[@12feettall6]

What? lol Vegina wants to be FreAzeR? 🤦‍♂🤦🤦‍♀

[@michelmontezuma4654]

I got your point and I think you are right. In the end, Vegeta admits that Goku is better than him in terms of morality. And, I do agree, because the conception of strong and power in a story like Dragon Ball is about how much an individual can be a master of himself, of his potential to be greater. Characters like Goku and Vegeta are great because of that.

[@Naruku2121]

I basically thought the speech for Vegeta was acknowledging the hardwork Goku put in. In that he lived a life so contrary to what a typical Saiyan is known for and yet accomplished a great number of things. Like beating him may not be as literal as beating him in a fight, but rather in a lot of cases, beating him to the punch in things, Like becoming a Super Saiyan first, mastering Super Saiyan completely before he did, or showcasing how powerful he was with Ssj2 against Yakkon that set him off, eventually Ssj3 Or how he thought that at first his friends Motivated Goku, or his family. Or the fact that Goku for the most part fights for no other complex reason than to just experience great fights with strong opponents, no malice behind it usually. He's likely also referring mostly to the Ginyu force when he meant he was willing to spare his opponents and rather not kill, in which Vegeta himself gladly cleaned up. And because of those reasons, you could argue Goku was 'better' in the since that his motivations to get stronger where 'pure' or 'simple' he didn't live his life with a chip constantly comparing himself to some one else, like a certain someone. That's why the speech was suppose to mean, is more of an acceptance that Vegeta would eventually loose that chip. They could and are still rivals after that, but at that point, he had genuine respect and are now rivals but now Vegeta doesn't have the malice or as intense obsession to outdo Goku as before, but started to be a better him.

[@gravethestampede3454]

Goku did not blow up a bunch of innocent people over a mid-life crisis, so yes, he is better than Vegeta.

[@GeteMachine]

Goku never had a mid life crisis.

[@cmath6454]

@@GeteMachine Because Goku expectations and standards for himself is based on himself and not anything else. Making him better. Vegeta says its his pride at stake but he follows Goku, whereas Goku follows himself and when the bill comes due, because his mindset is more receptive to those around him he has more resources inevitably than Vegeta who at the early stuffed himself in his gravity chamber. At the beginning Vegeta was a victim to his pride and no one else.

[@RedMoonLoop]

Gokus never had a mid life. Dude hasn't changed since he was a kid

[@mrwhite2039]

Blowing up people really doesn't mean much in Dragon Ball.

[@MotherLover1984]

​@@RedMoonLoop Goku changed a lot since he was a kid

[@Jbb7272]

Mike, love the content! You’re doing great and love the topics. I respect your opinion on the subject matter and you make an argument supporting your case. And while I won’t straight up say you’re wrong I believe you can make an argument that says otherwise. Certainly there are instances where Vegeta is stronger than Goku. But the case for Goku being better is when it matters. -Goku achieved SSJ first to defeat Frieza. -While Goku wasn’t stronger until after the Time Chamber it was 1 day and Goku seemed to be twice as strong. (I’m mostly familiar with anime but I don’t think Goku even went a whole year) -Achieved SSJ 3 -I happen to think Goku is craftier than Vegeta in battle -i think it’s only suggested Vegeta is stronger than Goku during android 19 fight.

[@theyungblackkami]

I always saw it as Goku being a nice and kind hearted person that got him as far as he did. Goku had actual teachers to help him gain strength, but it was never unearned. He made friendships by helping others and thus earned the respect of others. I think this is what vegeta means when calls Goku “Number 1”. No matter how much talent vegeta has, he can’t be like Goku and thus not have access to what Goku got.

[@NimbusUuber]

Vegeta is still mad that Goku went Super Saiyan first to fight Frieza, what Vegeta wanted his whole life turning him evil just to redeem the saiyans yet both Trunks his half human son and Goku still killed frieza and Goku brought him back to life so Vegeta is trying to get to Frieza one last time before he loses his chance again, Vegeta is always trying to catch up

[@tyronejennings599]

GT Vegeta used a machine to get Super Saiyan 4.

[@Koi_Swirl]

GT Goku was wished into a kid for SSj4 to be possible too.

[@tyronejennings599]

@@Koi_Swirl Goku didn't even know about Super Saiyan 4 when he was ACCIDENTALLY turned into a kid.

[@Sernival]

Yakon technically unalived himself and Goku really didn't fight to win as the adult Vegeta knew. He gave beatdowns to avenge his friends but not revenge, compare Vegeta and Goku's definition of winning on Namek.

[@jumangijim8129]

I swear the show gaslights you into thinking that goku is so much better than vegeta but if you actually watch vegeta does everything on his own while goku is always getting some stupid magical shit that makes him stronger

[@rickwilson3703]

Kinda facts

[@Eminster]

What? The only magical thing Goku had consumed was the ultra divine water. But even that was only a last resort. Goku never took anything magical since. What are you talking about?

[@licansen3331]

Going back into dragon ball z can give you insight about what's gonna happen in the future of the anime as a whole. Toriyama just planting seeds to make it grow to a full complete tree watch out for the little details that Toriyama has planted every now and then.

[@Shadowespeon17]

The GT point is misleading. Goku doesn't need to drop his power level because he's already quite battle-worn at that point where as Vegeta was a lot more fresh when he gets his SSJ4

[@jamesb2894]

Does the fight on Earth cause a retcon of sorts. On Namek they say his power level is around 18,000? Or was that just an assumption? If his power level was just 18,000 on earth and Goku's was 8,000 pre kaio ken with it x3 he would be stronger than Vegeta right?

[@EXTREMEKIWI115]

About what you said where translators don't always directly translate what sounds like English to Japanese, this used to bother me a lot. But in learning Japanese, I find that most Japanese people don't actually understand english. They use english words that don't mean what they are. For example, the Japanese word マンション (mansion) actually means apartment. Why? Who knows. And deeper than that, it's not certain that any English "equivalent" words can convey the full Japanese meaning. We can often only loosely translate what is being said, if at all. You'd be surprised how much nuance is simply chopped off from JP to ENG because there's no way (or maybe no concise way) to say some things in English. And finally, in the case of "number 1" being translated to "the champion", perhaps the translator thought this translation fit better. We have to consult the emotion and who is saying it when translating. It's not always straight-forward. And ofc, sometimes the translation sucks. I disagree with translations all the time, but it's the price you pay if you don't read directly from the source.

[@KurokamiNajimi]

Gotta disagree I think this video is biased towards only looking at what supports Vegeta. I don’t think Vegeta ever surpassed Goku outside of Zenkai during Namek and him going into the ROST first both of which are relevant on timing. I agree that initially Vegeta was superior and it was impressive that he made up the gap between them when he first became a SSJ but the gap between them outside of Goku having SSJ wasn’t that big. Goku was 3 million and Vegeta would be around 2 million considering 2nd form Frieza is over 1 mil. Gohan surpassed 3rd form Frieza at a point and he couldn’t react to final Frieza while Vegeta could. Vegeta used more intense gravity to make up this difference while Goku was training with people far weaker than him. I like to think they were equal around this time. Goku was nerfed against 19 so when Piccolo says he seemed stronger that’s only relative to him being nerfed. Tien’s last comment implied Goku at full strength could be stronger but that even if he was it can’t be by much Yes Goku had Gohan during the ROST but Gohan was fodder coming into it. He had to spend time bringing him up and Gohan didn’t even realize he was stronger than Goku so there was clearly never a point where he pressed him critically. Then you have to consider that Goku was still stronger than Vegeta even after he got a 2nd time in the chamber Saying Goku only surpassed him while dead because his body could recover better is a good argument on paper but it’s never emphasized in the narrative. Especially when Vegeta says he thought he pushed himself harder than he did. King Kai and so on wouldn’t have been able to teach Goku anything at that point. Goku was his own master which is why as another video I watched earlier explains he removes the symbol from his Gi. So I think it’s clear at that point the reason Goku surpassed him was in fact just because he’s more gifted. Vegeta rivaling and surpasses Goku after the Manga ends isn’t canon to all of this You could argue it was Vegeta who had advantages early on and Goku was simply playing catch up throughout the series. If Goku grew up as a generic Saiyan maybe he would have been stronger than Vegeta from the start

[@cmath6454]

If Vegeta says Goku is better, Vegeta is credentialed enough to make that claim being his Saiyan biology and decades of fighting around and WITH Goku. So that does basically say Goku is better when the man himself claims it.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Son Goku is my favorite character but I find Prince Vegeta, Future Trunks & Piccolo Jr as more interesting characters & even Lord Frieza and Perfect Cell

[@rafsanpantho364]

Vegeta always tortures his body to become stronger. That has diminishing returns in the long run. Goku trains to the exact limit and doesn’t cross the threshold. He knows his body's secrets.

[@kelvinw18]

I consider them equal. Goku just had a better training regimen. Vegeta is the guy who goes to the gym everyday thinking you rest your body when you sleep. Lol

[@dangdang8106]

I just assumed Vegeta meant he beat him to the punch like always had an ace or a trick to get that little extra power over him.

[@enma8441]

- If Goku/Krillin didn't spare Vegeta, he wouldn't even be a thing. - even when he's an elite Saiyan, with a tail with at least 5 years on 10x gravity, he still needs to be shown how to grow stronger or attain ssj1 by a low-level Saiyan without any of those benefits. - Goku achieves ssj2 and ssj3 in 7 years. Vegeta didn't even know there was a ssj3 - None of the characters can carry the show and that's why Goku had to be brought back. - give Goku a rich wife where he doesn't have work or leave the house and give Vegeta a poor wife where He has to work and Goku will be seen as a much better dad than Vegeta is seen now - If Goku didn't bring the entire idea of ssg and didn't make Beerus spare Earth, Vegeta would never have had the chance to get god ki while Goku would. - Goku is better than Vegeta in every way except the depiction of Goku being dumb and Vegeta smarter which isn't true. Goku passed the test for the U6 tournament. Vegeta made his team take a test knowing not all of them had an education

[@shmeebs387]

Vegeta's time chamber training was WAY less effective than Goku's. Goku got head and shoulders stronger while also training Gohan up and leaving months early. Vegeta didn't really know how to train. He made it up as he went along (often just copying Goku's gravity training). Goku had decades of teaching from several masters to go off.

[@yelhsanosnhoj6602]

Vegeta by all accounts should be stronger than or at least as strong as Goku I’ll never understood why he was written to be so weak in comparison

[@insanemakaioshin]

19:25 - Vegeta didn't know about the RR battle & definitely didn't know whether he'd spare Kid Buu or not.

[@shotgunmasterQL]

This is not really directly related, but I have never been able to shake off my dislike about the power level numbers, and it all bubbled up again when they were mentioned in the video regarding Sayan saga. The concept of power levels presented as numbers is just completely fine and as you have pointed previously they were used as a narrative tool. But the way the numbers are just living their own crazy reality with how insanely high they start getting according to the power scaling community. Goku like, what, roughly gains 50X in power between when he starts his trip to Namek and escapes Namek? People train all the time in the universe and have trained since forever, yet at the end of the Buu Saga I'm pretty sure Tien's power level would make him a god among men compared to the beginning of the Z. Did people just never train in the Dragon Ball universe or what, if some years of vigorous training can give you explosive gains like that? Did Sayans never just Zenkai boost the shit out of themselves into astronomical numbers or were they a young race of people that never had the opportunity for that? Basically, I think my issue with the power levels at the most basic level is that if you consider the numbers in a linear fashion, it's insane and makes little sense. If the power numbers don't follow a linear trajectory (logarithmic? or is it reverse of that?), they would make way more sense to me. So, say that going from 100K to 1M doesn't actually make the character 10X more powerful but just 2X more powerful, each time the number increases 10X, the actual power difference increases 2X. That would make the insane power scaling numbers make more sense to me, but that's obviously not the most sensible way to represent the power scales overall (linear would be more easily understandable by most people, it's a nicer way to present them!), and if you view the current power scaling numbers created by the fanbase with this sort of lense, this sort of revised view on the numbers is not going to work at all with the current numbers (consider people come up with power scaling numbers based on observed relative differences between known characters, so with something like Piccolo's and Android 17's current power scale numbers their actual power difference would be practically nonexistent). I don't know, rant over I guess. No problem with the actual video topic 👍

[@R.E.factor]

Vegeta suffers from imposter syndrome and has an inferiority complex which is why is pride and ego is so fragile. Also why is hangs onto the title of prince and considers Goku low class.

[@gspar116]

The sacred water wasn’t magical Korin said himself the training to get the water was what made him stronger since it’s just tap water

[@ultrainstinctgokublack9097]

One thing Vegeta fans always downplay is just how more determined Goku is to keep going when he is outmatched and tries to use his brain in those situations. Vegeta just attacks with a violent rage when he is outmatched and ends up failing. It's one thing that Vegeta might be able to best Goku in a 1 on 1 but vs other opponents I think it's pretty clear that Goku is a better fighter.

[@Black_Knight_-BK-]

Well its Vegeta fans you're talking about, so dim down your expectations towards them