Is HELL Real... and How Can We Know?! w/ Dr. Peter Kreeft

📺 Full Episode: Coming Soon
Peter Kreeft and Matt Fradd talk about if Hell is just. Matt and Peter talk about the clarity of the Gospels on Hell, and what purgatory is really like.
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[@robertrazon8009]

Removing God in our Life is Hell. He is the source of all Goodness so without him we are either dead or no purpose/meaning in Life.

[@tinkerbell7877]

"God the Father makes an offer man CAN refuse." -Dr. Peter

[@issaavedra]

As an ex-atheist convert into Orthodoxy, the Orthodox view of hell solved this dilemma for me. The Eschaton is the final revelation, Christ reveals everything in reality, and that includes you and the darkest corners of your soul. If you are crooked, you will hate this revelation, it will feel like an endless torture, but you will keep rejecting Him, because the mechanisms of repentance will not be there anymore... that is hell. On the contrary, if you are united with Christ, the revelation of Christ in everything is just Heaven. Everything will be as God intended it to be. In other words, hell is not created, but the experience of Christ for an unrepentant sinner.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

Permanent seperation from God would be hell as God drives everything good. Everything. So it means no good. No love. Only the infinite depths of eternity without that

[@user-ur4rg5ph3x]

Yup. Helped me too

[@issaavedra]

@@Tom_McMurtry yeah, eternal self relation. The ultimate death.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

@@issaavedra yes and unfortunately freely chosen. Free choice is needed for love to exist truly. And so we are given the gift of being able to love. But rejection of that with the free will leads to seperation from all love and good thereby.

[@enderwiggen3638]

Hell is the shameful realization that they don’t deserve to be saved because of all the harm they have done to others. Your closest approximation on earth is when you are in conflict with someone and you know you are wrong but keep fighting anyway. That shame you feel and the anger you drum up to keep that conflict going without any notion of saying you were wrong and sorry. It’s the self condemnation and the pride of not being humble enough to ask for salvation and mercy. Just a stubborn feeling that they deserve to be punished and turn away from Christ

[@losingonlotto3449]

My jaw is still on the ground, how have I never heard of this beacon of wisdom. God Bless Him

[@Anonymousduck161]

Hell is one of the most misunderstood (mostly on purpose) concepts in Christendom. People automatically assume that God is the one “sending” you to hell when in fact, YOU are choosing to cut yourself off from the source of life. Hell is a realm for the damned not because God has decided it to be so, but because they have decided it to be so. This is why it is so important to constantly examine our hearts and try our best to merge our hearts with Christ’s heart. It takes effort, love is an act of the will; the key word is ACT. Therefore, even though we cannot be saved by our merits; our actions have consequences and will either lead us closer to Christ or further away. God is perfect mercy and perfect justice. He will be just because He has shown us mercy.

[@epistemophiliac5334]

The church doesn't believe people go to hell anymore

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@epistemophiliac5334what evidence has led you to this conclusion?

[@SaintJoseph911]

Is this copy and pasted or from a book? This is very well said 👏

[@Tene-xh9vl]

Well what about people that end up there because of their free will being violated by someone's else's choice Why doesn't God have mercy on them and save them? If a person makes a decision and it ends up sending them and others to hell why won't God intervene to save the others since they didn't make the choice as it was made for them?

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

@@Tene-xh9vl what does this proposal look like in real life?

[@liambrennan7410]

CS Lewis Problem of Pain sold me on the dogma of Hell when I read it. It went from a vague concept in my mind to a logical conclusion that genuinely shook me to consider as such.

[@johnbrion4565]

The greasy divorce is another great book by Lewis on heaven and hell.

[@rickdockery9620]

One of the greatest Protestants

[@johnbrion4565]

@@rickdockery9620 actually he was on his way to Catholicism and no doubt in my mind he would be today. Influenced by Chesterton and Tolkien. More and more Anglicans and even Anglican Churches are coming into communion with the Catholic Church. In fact there is one down the street from my house that just came into communion with the Catholic Church.

[@rickdockery9620]

@@johnbrion4565 nah. You have no way of knowing. Just speculation. Probably makes you feel better though

[@johnbrion4565]

@@rickdockery9620 the Anglican Church now has female priests. You really think in any of Lewis writings he shows support for that? That he would believe that is the true church of Christ? Again his biggest influences were Chesterton and Tolkien.

[@dogcatmom5877]

I’ve seen gratitude and wonder in my pets. I think our soul is on a higher level, since we are made in God’s image. But I do believe animals, at least those who are loved, do have a spirit. God takes care of His creations. ❤

[@micheldevries7975]

Exactly my thoughts too, I see gratitude and wonder in my cats every day.

[@margokupelian344]

I enjoyed this conversation immensely. Dr Peter is a great thinker and a good soul, a naturally wise man. 🤔 Thank you Matt, you’re great! Always searching for truth like we all do.

[@FredvonHayek]

Gregory of Nyssa and Origen believed in universal salvation. The Bible says EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord! I assume they will do that of their own free will because God's love is irresistible.

[@jonnyw82]

Also Origen

[@rschiwal]

I have experienced hell. I know it's real. I also know it is just. I suffer from Bipolar disorder. The depression you experience is far deeper than other forms of depression, but even depression at its worst isn't hell. Hell came when I started blaming God and doubting his goodness and his love. I blamed him for causing my suffering. I hated that he would throw people in Hell eternally if they refused to love him and I honestly believed he could be tricking us all. My attention was drawn to a visionary in Medjugorje who was asked about hell, and she simply explained that God doesn't keep people in Hell. If they pleaded to be released, they would, but they don't. Heaven is the presence of God, and they hate God. They rage against him and curse him and blame him for everything. I saw myself doing exactly this and became terrified. I was living hell and I couldn't stop. I tried to pray, but was so angry I wanted to throw the rosary. I didn't believe in his love because of my suffering and I raged because of my suffering and my rage increased my suffering. I tried to pray but only yelled at him. I knew I was going to hell and nothing could change it because the more I tried to pray, the less I wanted to do with God. I gave up. I went to confession and told the priest I knew I was going to Hell. After a long pause, he calmly suggested that I was eating too much sugar. That completely sideways answer derailed my train of thought, gave me hope and started me on the journey to salvation.

[@hunterkarr5618]

Incredible Yeah sometimes idk what priests are thinking but God bless you 🙏

[@Dienekes678]

Thank you for sharing that!! I can relate. I'm an addict, and when I slip in weakness, I turn away from God and blame Him for my weakness and suffering. This makes the pain immeasurably worse! I shudder at the thought of dying in this state. I'll keep you in my prayers. God bless!

[@scurvydog20]

I once had an interesting thought, c.s.lewis suggested that before the fall mans body was fully within his power but with the fall man no longer had full control of the body's appetites. All will be raised some to glory and some to damnation but all will be raised, imagine the torment of a mind with no control of the body's passions I could see that as the fire, after all the rich man asked for a drop of water. Imagine being a full mercy of your bodies thirst and unable to drink. And being in the presence of more powerful infernal spirits who hate you and are at will to harm you. Job but without rest and more intense pain. No escape despite the body screaming to do something to flee the suffering.

[@Barbaramamato]

Hell is real rather than virtual, not metaphorical. Hell is permanent, as well. It is the demons who train humans to hate God by reward and inflicting aversion to doing good and, at first avoiding goodwill. Then opposing goodwill. Their deceptions deny the reality that hell is very real. In fact, it is the temporary hell if one may even think to beg Our Lord for mercy.

[@eoinbrennan3949]

If ever anyone was in doubt about the existence of hell let me just direct you to St teresa of avila's biography and her description of hell, as she experienced it herself. Yes she actually experienced hell, she said that it was one of the greatest graces God had ever given her because she realised what God has spared her from and also that experience gave her a zeal for the salvation of souls. Please read her description of what hell is really like, it will scare the living daylights out of you and like st teresa it will give you a zeal for the salvation of souls. It will terrify you so much that you will drop to your knees and pray that even your worst enemy doesn't end up there

[@yeshua1st]

Our Saints give a pretty good insight of their visions of hell.

[@clq2461]

I had a very holy friend who was very sick. In one of our conversations, she said something very similar to what Dr. Keeft spoke to about suffering in purgatory. She accepted all the suffering given to her even though it was hard. This was the first time I have ever considered that she was living out purgatory here on earth if that is such a thing.

[@GrandmaGiggy]

I understand that Hell is real, but I still pray God will convince every soul to want Him and to cooperate with Him. ❤

[@margokupelian344]

For God to convince every soul to want Him and cooperate with Him will be when we pray and sacrifice for it to happen. God has a weakness for ardent prayers and His mercy will overcome His justice.

[@simonslater9024]

For proof of HELL watch Following padre Pio. Look up Fatima 1917. Watch what St Faustina,witnessed when she visited HELL and saw the horrendous torture’s. The greatest pain of HELL is eternal separation from Jesus Christ who is God.

[@hopefull61256]

Not infallible church teaching.

[@simonslater9024]

Yes it is. And Jesus said upon this Rock ie Peter I will build my Church ….. Jesus never said churches. Then Jesus said and the gates of HELL will never prevail against her meaning the holy Catholic Church has been infallibly guided by Holy Spirit.

[@johnvwilkman]

Dr Peter Kreeft is so good!

[@dereknelson4860]

Great interview; I love Dr. Kreeft and think he is one of the greatest minds alive today. Thanks for this.

[@meganbrennan454]

You are given the choice of a path, with or without God. Hell is when you choose without God, He doesn’t send you there. If God is all goodness and joy, then to walk away from absolute goodness is to choose suffering.

[@michaelpryor78]

The reason why the state we die in is eternal and unchanging goes back to the time thing. Repentance is something that is completely dependent on time. We reflect on the past, feel sorry about what we've done in the present, and then seek forgiveness in the future. Problem with doing this in the afterlife is that we've entered a state where time doesn't exist in the way it does on Earth. You can't change from what you are in that present moment to someone different, because the future doesn't exist in such a way. You're simply who you are when you died.

[@AquilaLupus9]

Bingo! For there to be a change, there needs to be both time and space. Space is another issue as well. There can be no change in infinity.

[@russbus1967]

My issue with this has to do with the dogma of Purgatory. The souls in Purgatory necessarily undergo change (from imperfect to perfect), therefore there must exist some possibility for the soul to change outside of time and space.

[@michaelpryor78]

@@russbus1967 I'm not going to give myself a headache trying to figure out time in the afterlife too much lol, but there is a key difference between repentance and purification. Repentance does require reflection on the past, but purgatory's also not about repentance. It's about purification. Purification doesn't require the past. If you want to make it easier, you could also just say that our state (in terms of whether or not sanctifying grace lives within us) is eternal for the sake of justice.

[@rolfstorz3745]

An interesting discussion for sure😊

[@joshualott5375]

Dr. Kreeft actually answers this question quite well in his Handbook of Christian Apologetics, similar to what he said about the intrinsic nature of the soul. The best analogy I can use in my finite wisdom is based on an episode of The Walking Dead, Season 9, Episode 1. At the Hilltop, Gregory and Maggie have an election to see who should be the new leader. Maggie wins. Gregory then conspires with another member of the Hilltop community to kill Maggie, but the attempt fails and Maggie deduces that Gregory orchestrated the whole scenario. But in this case, it certainly was not the first time Gregory betrayed Maggie and her people. He stood by Negan during the "All Out War" storyline. Maggie rhetorically asks Gregory, "How many chances do we have to give you?" Her presumption, warranted in this case, is that Gregory will NEVER change. He'll always make selfish choices that adversely affect the well-being of others. That he does so of his own freewill, I think, demonstrates that his soul is intrinsically unjust. Perhaps that is why some souls are condemned to hell.

[@warrenroby6907]

Matt is correct to question hell since it a messy conflation of several concepts. He should invite Dr Jordan Daniel Wood to explain Ultimate Reconciliation from a Catholic perspective.

[@howardl9790]

I agree. Let’s hear a new insight from a well learned scholar. Dr. Wood is brilliant and deserves to be heard. Many people adhere to what they are taught and raised on and struggle acknowledging that what they know could be incorrect. There’s a reason why people struggle with hell! It’s so hard to consider whenever we take it as we’ve been taught. Time for some new thought!

[@theradiantknight9771]

Dr Wood promulgates the heresy of universalism

[@NMemone]

I know nothing about this concept and therefore support Matt bringing on someone to teach us about it!

[@pop6997]

C.S. Lewis once said, 'The gates of hell are locked from the inside' which I see as profoundly in step with God being pure love. Also, in step with purgatory & Holiness & Sanctification. St. Newman's poem, 'The dream of Gerontius' to me expands on this even more, from the expansion of time at the moment of death to the healing of the soul. It reminds me of what we call 'Purgatory' in Catholicism & also what Orthodox may describe as an intermediate state through & after death. God help us all & may Mother Mary be with us in that hour 🙏

[@SL-es5kb]

Mr. Kreeft must not have dogs- they feel gratitude, shame and repentance 😂

[@arthurhowardpl]

Yes I was surprised he said that… all of those are variations of sense sadness and love which all higher animals have.

[@tristenwilliams1943]

We can’t change after death in this life because time doesn’t exist outside of the universe. Heaven and Hell are outside of time. And change requires time. This is my guess, but it feels like a decent answer

[@nobodyinteresting5311]

This seems to handle the issue of why people can’t be saved once in hell fairly well, but the fact that we will have resurrected bodies (not just souls) makes me doubt that our experience of heaven or hell will be timeless. What use would a physical body be in a timeless heaven?

[@howardl9790]

There still has to be some concept of time although probably different than what we experience now. To indicatively say that we are immutable after death seems to limit God’s mercy and capability to reach us.

[@ClosedDoor35]

Funny coincidence, I'm on that chapter of The Problem of Pain right now.

[@jamieclements7954]

Why do we feel like we have to justify the decisions of God? If God felt free will was important enough to make a place where created beings could choose to not be in His presence. This place would be free of all the fruits of the spirit and Pride, Greed,.and Lust would have their fill. That is all that is required for Hell to be a reality. Thank you for all you do here, God Bless You and Keep you Your Brother in Christ,

[@Veritas1234]

I think a lot of people forget that God is also as Just as he his Love. And we forget we are not "owed" Heaven. As a created being that God fell in love with, we for some reason always act disobediently to his design for us. So we are owed destruction. But he gives us the ability to disobey him but not be destroyed, out of pure love he does this. But then for some reason most of our conversations are "how could God punish ME, that's bull!"

[@ricoontube]

It was probably Saint Catherina of Genoa - not Siena and her Treatise on Purgatory

[@mcsmama]

Over the years I have come to believe in Hell as a permanent & never-ending existence of the absence of God, & therefore, also the absence of EVERYTHING that is good... absolute absence of all we know as loving, joyful, peaceful, happy, beautiful... a loss of feeling any contentment, serenity, or well-being, ever again. God is good, He is all good, & He is only good... without God, there is no good... there is no love. It is hard enough to live on this imperfect Earth when even just a few aspects of good seem to be missing from our lives, especially as days drag on that way. I do not wish to even imagine the bleakness of a permanent existence without God; in permanent exile from ALL that is good; a never ending existence of horror, despair, longing, pain, ugliness, & desolation, with no possibility of relief from any of it, EVER. Free will dictates that we can choose that, OR we can choose HIM; but when we CHOOSE HIM, we must prove it by then LIVING OUR LIVES IN A WAY THAT ACTUALLY SAYS, "I choose You". Using words only & simply SAYING we choose God, but then living our lives our way, thumbing our noses at Him as we indulge ourselves in whatever feels good to us, is a sure way to tell Him, "I choose NOT You", & ensure that when we pass from this Earth, NOTHING will ever feel good again. ["Is HELL Real... and How Can We Know?! w/ Dr. Peter Kreeft"] [4.27.2024]

[@juliefeiertag5043]

Matt , I'm watching your interview with one of your favorite people, and I find myself wondering,.... are you asking yourself if your decision of Catholicism was the right choice. You interview so many different people and I know the answers or their options can make a lot of sense to the questions that are asked. The layers are so vast... Please, don't get derailed. That's exactly what Satan wants. So many different people who have so many different spins. Just remember , as a catholic we believe in God our Father, Jesus Christ his only son , the Holy Spirit, our God is three in one. Anything else doesn't matter. We can ask, ask and ask again, but any other answers truly do not matter. We have the big book of answers . Thank you so much for all your hard work!! Sometimes thou I know from our catacism the true answers to some questions, but don't see any push back or kind correcting from you. I just wanted to put my thoughts out here. I am just a fellow Catholic and want to remain loyal to Christ. Respectfully yours Julie P.s. I am mostly referring to the interview with Mr Atkins.

[@SL-es5kb]

It was interesting that a lot of the online complaints about the infinite dignity document was that the existence of Hell showed we don’t have eternal dignity- but that didn’t make sense to me as I thought God being perfectly Just just means that Hell perfectly respects our free will choice to be separate from Him so even eternal damnation respects our dignity …

[@francismcglynn4169]

It also deals with the dangerous claim that the death penalty should not be exercised because of human dignity. If there is any dignity, which there is, in being a human being it is in being able to recognize when we have done wrong. Facing death and judgment makes it more likely that a person will begin to make that analysis and judgment about their own life before they have to face God.

[@paxonearth]

I've come to fully believe that the only version of Hell that makes the slightest bit of sense is the version that says Hell is the burning away of our impurities; the burning away of anything that isn't part of God's kingdom. It's natural and corrective, and temporary. Eternal punsihment for faulty creatures who never asked to be created in the first place is an evil concept. This version of Hell is the only version that emphasizes God's love and mercy, while at the same time emphasizing Hell's reality.

[@Joseph-Haddad]

wise words.

[@jonnyw82]

Amen!

[@skylinefever]

I was stuck with the hellfire and brimstone sermons as a kid. I often argued that if Christianity depends on making children paranoid with such sermons, let it fall. I often joke about the Southern Baptist Convention adjecent kinds all Pascal's Wagering kids.

[@MikePasqqsaPekiM]

Hell is a tough topic. But it’s a reality. “Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him” (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2 [A.D. 110]).

[@SaintJoseph911]

I would like to hear him talk on why people have been saying hell is "empty" i obviously dont believe that but many prominent figures as of late have been suggesting this ridiculousness

[@danieldefonce]

⁠Hell is a “severe mercy” for those persons (angels and humans) that want nothing to do with God. You choose to reject God, well, so be it, but that is also the rejection of all goodness, beauty, and pleasure which find their subsistence in God. In eternity, nothing and no one can escape the presence of God, Who is Love; but for those who hate God, their experience of His omnipresence (Love) will be to them Hell.

[@AlbornozVEVO]

I've followed David Bentley Hart for a while and tbh the issue he has with hell is well-justified *only if* you believe the soul can, in whatever way, access the infinitude of God's knowledge. Since our level of awareness determines our level of freedom, the soul could only choose hell with absolute freedom if it was able to have access to absolute knowledge i.e. God. It would then make complete sense to object: how can a person freely and eternally reject God, after knowing all of God? my answer would be that the soul doesn't have access to all of God's knowledge. but I don't know how to sustain that argument.

[@markreed2563]

Could hell be eternal in the sense that those in hell will never have the opportunity to go to heaven, but God may still show mercy on those in hell (even if they can't ever leave hell)?

[@day1678]

If you listen to St. Padre Pio: You will know when you get there, for those that want hell.

[@nuno09]

I know hell is real, I've experienced it. I could smell everything, I could feel everything, moments seem like years...

[@lydiadillard4417]

I'm not sure what priest on KZbin, but he was told that God didn't create Hell the demons did as they needed a place to go to.

[@theomnisthour6400]

The better hells are sort of 12 step programs for those prone to certain debilitating addictions for developing souls. Only the darkest ones lead to hive mind matrix universe abysses.

[@DavidLarson100]

What's interesting about this topic is, like Matt and so many other Catholics who want to accept the dogma here, it often just seems impossible. Our minds and hearts just reject it. Kreeft doesn't even attempt to justify it. He just says it also doesn't quite make sense to him but maybe things are different enough in the afterlife that it will make better sense then. I think inarguable unjustness we sense is why hopeful universalism (accepting the dogma that it's possible but also hoping, or even having the hunch, that nobody will ultimately be subject to an eternity of torment) has caught on in the last couple centuries. I like GK Chesterton's treatment of this in Chapter 8 of Orthodoxy, where he talks about how the idea of hell has "unsettled so many just minds." Why would that be? He also says it is "imperative" to hope for all and it's tenable that it's inevitable. But also that it may not be good for spiritual growth to assume so too strongly. This reminds me of the early Church "silence" on the matter, where many Cappodocian and Alexandrian fathers would teach universalism to the advanced but still preach hell to the novice. That fear of God is the beginning of wisdom for them, but also that hope for the salvation of all may be necessary for the more advanced Christian not to lose hope as they grow in love for all, even their enemies. Chesteron's quote in its fullness is below if anyone is interested: "Again, the same is true of that difficult matter of the danger of the soul, which has unsettled so many just minds. To hope for all souls is imperative; and it is quite tenable that their salvation is inevitable. It is tenable, but it is not specially favourable to activity or progress. Our fighting and creative society ought rather to insist on the danger of everybody, on the fact that every man is hanging by a thread or clinging to a precipice. To say that all will be well anyhow is a comprehensible remark: but it cannot be called the blast of a trumpet. Europe ought rather to emphasize possible perdition; and Europe always has emphasized it. Here its highest religion is at one with all its cheapest romances. To the Buddhist or the eastern fatalist existence is a science or a plan, which must end up in a certain way. But to a Christian existence is a story, which may end up in any way. In a thrilling novel (that purely Christian product) the hero is not eaten by cannibals; but it is essential to the existence of the thrill that he might be eaten by cannibals. The hero must (so to speak) be an eatable hero. So Christian morals have always said to the man, not that he would lose his soul, but that he must take care that he didn't. In Christian morals, in short, it is wicked to call a man "damned": but it is strictly religious and philosophic to call him damnable."

[@hunterkarr5618]

What you’re saying here is a little sophisticated but I like it. I too feel that struggle with hell but it also recently kind of dawned on me that if Jesus never talked about hell, maybe we wouldn’t be here talking about Jesus. Like Chesterton says, it may have been the only way for humanity to take Him seriously Like talk softly and carry a big stick. Idk

[@johnbirman5840]

The scene from the “Dawn Treader” Of Aslan removing the dragon skin unfortunately didn’t make it into the movie. I have found much of Narnia and C.S.Lewis’s Science fi trilogy very helpful in unraveling “some” of mysteries of God.

[@Llyrin]

I’m certainly not a biblical scholar, but I can imagine he’ll being locked out of heaven, out of paradise. That alone is quite a punishment, whether we reap the fires of hell or not. I see Sheol as something of a purgatory. Not being a scholar, I don’t known whether Christ freed the souls in Sheol, or if simply went there to give them the hope of the final resurrection day.

[@superdavidss]

9:40 Once Sam Shamoun said Jesuschrist is the best comunicator ever has walked the Earth. Professor Kreeft put it in his words.

[@adesertsojourner8015]

God is a consuming fire Heb 12:29 and all present Ps 139:7. Fire can illuminate, purify, or destroy. Those in heaven are burning but without friction or resistance to God, such as the burning bush Ex 3:2, or the seraphim ‘burning ones.’ Those in a state of purgation are having their impurities burned away as through fire 1Cor 3:15. There is suffering but it’s bearable as the soul knows it is being refined for the Kingdom. Any souls in hell are there because they have chosen to resist God, and will go on resisting him. The friction against his will causes them suffering that does not purify but only destroys.

[@AquilaLupus9]

The inability to change in infinity is due to there being no time. For there to be a change, there needs to be both time _and_ space. This is understood if one studies physics.

[@bruh-dg5yw]

Well if you are Catholic you understand that heaven, hell, and purgatory have to have _something_ like time because those within it have some sort of change/experience, and our bodies are also resurrected. You need time for human experience of bliss or suffering, or just experience in general. I don’t get why you think the afterlife would just be some frozen block-reality that lacks any change.

[@satoshiumei4622]

If I recall correctly, Fr. Ripperger said that in one of his exorcisms, it was revealed that Hell was made by Satan, not God.

[@SilvanianPirateKing]

I understand it as complete isolation from God. It's not so much a normal punishment for crimes where punishment is determined relative to the offense, but it restricts one's access to anything worthy of a reward in the eyes of God. In the same way, a rebellious child that stays that way into adulthood may be asked out of the house and the door shut. As for the form that restriction takes for immortal souls, I don't know and honestly don't want to ponder it. We're better served sharing the good news of the glory of heaven than reporting on the sorrowful state of affairs in hell.

[@_the__void_]

Good grief. What is Dr Kreefts justifcation for time being different after death, or that souls are not the kind of thing that can be destroyed (is God so weak that he can't destroy what he created - presumably he did create souls, right?) And on what basis does he say that animals do not experience feelings, wonder, gratitude or guilt? How could he possibly know that? He clearly has never had a pet cat or dog. The more I hear from this man the less I can take him seriously.

[@nowonder6086]

I love how you both say you're committed to no change after death and then can't explain why lmao

[@Veritas1234]

and I imagine you're committed to God probably not existing at all and then can't explain why.

[@nowonder6086]

@@Veritas1234 You don't know me, my upbringing, or my educational background. I could tell you exactly how probable I think God is and what would change my mind, but you put words into my mouth (unlike what I did with our two esteemed presenters)

[@Veritas1234]

@@nowonder6086 I love how you say you could tell me exactly your beliefs and why and then don't explain why. rotfl

[@nowonder6086]

@@Veritas1234 Because instead of asking, you assumed rather brazenly. I'm sure Jesus is very proud of your demeanor or whatever you're trying to accomplish here

[@Veritas1234]

@@nowonder6086 I didn't assume. I imagined.

[@glenliesegang233]

The atheist cannot grasp they do not have an understanding of what hell is and how and why a Loving God could condemn people to eternal punishment for finite crimes. It is simple- first, souls exist. On death we exit time and space we inhabit while alive. Last, either we have chosen to be hellish, or righteous. Many atheists will surrender to God's authority when they are face to face with Jesus and his love, but many more will continue to rail against his goodness and blame Him for not creating them differently. Sin and choice are far too difficult, therefore, unbelievable. Pray for them.

[@timsmith3377]

Funny Matt's comment about Hell at 8:38 that a plain reading of the gospels seems to indicate that Hell is real. A similar thing applies to my thinking on Purgatory - a plain reading of the Bible does *not* indicate that it exists. There appears to be only two options after death: Heaven or Hell.

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

I am heavily skeptical of St. Faustina's and Padre Pio's visions. Our Lord was crucified through his wrists, not his palms. Something seriously wrong with Pio's stigmata, therefore question his visions.

[@luke9747]

I have heard where there are multiple canonized saints with different visions of the crucifixion and different places of the wounds too. I don't disbelieve they are lying or anything, I more believe that God was trying to get a different point across so what the saints experienced did not necessarily line up. Kinda the same line of thinking as Genesis where it says the world was created in 7 days but that is not "true" in a sense. Although it was just not the point trying to be communicated

[@workinpromo]

Our Lady of Fatima clearly showed hell in the traditional manner confirming Faustina and Padre Pio. The problem with today's intellectuals is that they are so focused on the human will and human sovereignty to the point where they try to bring all suffering down to the choice of man. Even in nature this is incorrect we suffer by natural catastrophes although everything started with Adam. My point is simply that yes hell is self exclusion from God, but God also participates as a matter of justice in punishing the person. Or else there would be no lake of fire.

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

Hell is a very very lonely place. It will be dealt with in the Final Judgement.

[@aussierob7177]

Hell is real because the Scriptures affirm it. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice. People choose hell because they hate God so much the thought of being with him forever is unbearable, so they choose hell. God will not force a person to repent and choose heaven, because he respects his freedom.

[@jamesmarshel1723]

This is a very difficult doctrine for me: The problem of the unevangelized, the goodness of God, the limits of salvation -have to be considered in its light. The doctrine itself elicits different opinions depending on which books you read (glad to see Bentley mentioned in the comment section ) or people you talk to. The most unpleasant of these to me, even if true, is the “they send themselves to hell” view: it seems to suggest everyone who goes to hell, goes voluntarily. But something about persons who have sinned and earnestly didn’t believe hell or heaven existed -Buddhists or atheists for example-that makes this idea seem paradoxical. What am I missing? I’d love some Christian charity from anyone kind enough to respond. 🙏

[@howardl9790]

I empathise with you on how challenging this doctrine is. It’s hard to hold that God’s mercy and love is absolutely incomprehensible and also hold that punishment could possibly be eternal conscious torment or separation from God. I think that too many people put limits on God’s mercy as if it’s this transactional or operational gift only given under certain formulas. I don’t want to limit something that I will never entirely know, so I’ll hold to a hopeful view about not only my own salvation, but also for yours and all humans throughout history. Praised be Jesus Christ.

[@workinpromo]

Mortal sin no matter what you think of the afterlife will always be a fundamental rift between the person and God. What's important is only that the person is consious of having broken something in himself, having done something grave. Something that isn't just a small fault but profoundly disordered. As a matter of justice, and justice is an expression of love, God will punish that soul proportionally if no repentance is achieved. This is eternal because what was broken at that moment was the image of God, the person disgraced it, and since God is of infinite value the image is likewise reflective of this value. The punishment is therefore infinite. God's mercy is about delaying his justice, but both are expressions of love.

[@robertajaycart3491]

I love Dr. Peter Kreeft.

[@britaahonen1489]

What makes them think that God isn't in hell, or has no reach or vision to hell, there's circumstances in hell,

[@Llyrin]

Speaking of needing reason, one of my favorite Bible verses is Isaiah 1:18, where the prophet says, “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.” I use the KJV for its beautiful writing. Look at what this tells us about God. He created us with such great intellect that we insignificant creatures can reason snd debate with He who created us. For us to do that, our capacity for intelligence must be very similar to God’s. There’s a CHASM of difference in intelligence, but our capacity must be similar to be able to reason and debate with Him. The kings of the earth never countenanced that from the peasants. Maybe Solomon did, because the Lord granted him wisdom beyond any other mere mortal. It tells us we can be forgiven our sins. Come to God, repent, and you will be forgiven. I suppose the Protestants look at this and “reason” they don’t need Confession. I’ll let them worry about that. It also tells me that God is not entirely do-or-doom. Why reason with anyone, why debate, if you are willing to simply dictate? Of course, He wants us to understand His statutes, but there is that key, “reason TOGETHER.” My emphasis, naturally.

[@hunterkarr5618]

Love it Also the story of the widow and the crooked judge I marvel at the gospel passages where Jesus implies adjustment or compromise on God’s part

[@juleske5708]

St Frances of Rome can tell you exactly what Hell is like - there is a book on her visions you can get it through TAN books Dr Christine Bacon also reviews the book on her channel I recommend.

[@DelioJez]

Just get Fr Ripperger on the show already!!!

[@Floridiansince94]

Agree

[@Barbaramamato]

We understand that, because Angels are created with full and perfect knowledge, the Angels chose whether to be obedient to the will of God, to adore God and to serve God in an instant according to the Catechism. Why, then would it be difficult to understand that the eternal life is determined by choices to love or not once humans die?

[@howardl9790]

Because of the possibility of a universal hylomorphism

[@Barbaramamato]

@@howardl9790 possible does not equate to truth

[@Notbraydendantin]

That’s assuming fixity of the will. You’re simply begging the question by saying that angels or humans can’t change their minds after death

[@howardl9790]

@@Barbaramamato I never equated the possibility of it to the truth

[@Barbaramamato]

@@Notbraydendantin This is based on reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is based on the Bible, the Father's of Christianity such as St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Anthony of the Desert, St. Irenaeus, etc., those who refuted heresy.

[@robertmueller2023]

No. And it wasn't even file named as such, so they can't even claim any intent. I scoffed at the time and hit the fast forward button. I see that I am making inroads in academia without lifting a finger.

[@friedawells6860]

Hell is simply the place where God is not present. If you hate God, He will not force you to be with Him, nor will He revoke the immortality of your soul. However, God is love, truth and beauty itself. Therefore to be apart from God, you have to go to the outer darkeness: a place where there is no love, no truth, no beauty, and spend your eternity with the spirits who hate God and who hate the beings that are made in His image.

[@hunterkarr5618]

This sounds right

[@larrylim3571]

These theories on heaven, purgatory, and hell don't really matter much because they are what they are and we probably wouldn't know what they are exactly till we die. Our concern should be to imitiate Jesus... That's all... That's sufficient and all other theories and thoughts become in many ways vanity. To create theology on all you can think of is beneficial in some ways. But Thomas Aquinas stopped writing too because it'll be infinite to theorize on all you can think of. That's scrupulosity.

[@Joseph-Haddad]

good point

[@gilbertofarias8907]

The traditional idea of hell, taught by many Saints, which is an unimaginable suffering for the whole of eternity seems repugnant to reason and even theology. Are we more merciful than God, since we as civilization almost globally overcome torture as a form of punishment?

[@Tene-xh9vl]

I know in Romans 9 it says he will have mercy on whoever he chooses.

[@osar2870]

God has revealed to us what we need to do to get to heaven so if we choose not to live in a state of grace and the sacraments then we are choosing to go to hell. We all need to get to the point where we would rather die than to commit a mortal sin.

[@TheRealDealDominic]

Hell is God's mercy. For any Sin close to the presence of God will burn greater then Sin in the furthest place (Hell).

[@trofaznimotor901]

some Church fathers believed in Universal restoration or at least one could conclude that from their writings.Now universalism is belief that wicked will be in hell for certain period in time,maybe for couple thousand years but after all these sufferinga they would reconcile with God.To me personaly that makes most sense BUT I ADVISE YOU NOT TO BELIEVE IN IT.IF HELL IS ETERNAL GOD HAS GOOD REASONS FOR IT.

[@Tene-xh9vl]

@@trofaznimotor901 I don't know how it's good reason for it if they can travel back and forth between realms. They are interdimensional and are all around us at all times. Really what was the point in creating hell of they can travel back and forth. Also I know some Christians wanna believe that it will closed off and then Jesus is gonna come back and reign for a thousand years and then a new earth and heaven will be here. It doesn't make sense to me to leave something open and then close it and then open it back up.

[@Proclivitytolife]

Not only would it mean that Jesus was incredibly misleading when speaking of Hell, but furthermore, it would make him incredibly misleading when speaking about the Church. Apparently he builds a Church that utterly and thoroughly misunderstands him on the topic of Hell? And the Holy Spirit did not guide his Church into "all truth"?

[@retroasf7825]

Matt you need to have David Bentley Hart on the show. He's a very articulate and funny guy. His book That All Shall Be Saved is a very, ahem, unique exegesis of Paul. Even though he's wrong it would be a great conversation

[@howardl9790]

How is he wrong?

[@retroasf7825]

​@@howardl9790 Well, Chaleb, Matt 25:46 to start. Aionios does mean eternal, saying it means "pertaining to the age" makes no sense. Okay, punishment of the Age makes sense, but what does "life of the Age" even mean? DBH admits in the postscript aionios can mean eternal, but he linguistically perambulates around the question by detouring into olam/elam. Also the Catechism of the Catholic Church infallibly declared that ECT exists for those who die in a state of mortal sin.

[@howardl9790]

@@retroasf7825 There is no one correct way to interpret aionios. It does not strictly mean “pertaining to the age” or “eternal.” I’m sure you know that though. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not infallible in its entirety. Sure some things in it are, but not all things. Where is ECT infallibly taught? Not trying to be snarky, just genuinely curious as to where that’s coming from if it’s “infallible.”

[@retroasf7825]

@@howardl9790 CCC 1035. Also, are you Catholic or Eastern Orthodox? I'm assuming you aren't catholic since you don't think the CCC is infallibly declared...

[@howardl9790]

@@retroasf7825 From the USCCB, “Because the Catechism presents Catholic doctrine in a complete yet summary way, it naturally contains the infallible doctrinal definitions of the popes and ecumenical councils in the history of the Church. It also presents teaching which has not been communicated and defined in these most solemn forms.” I am not denying the value of the catechism. It is actually quite significant and does include infallible dogmas. It is certainly an authoritative piece of work but in itself it is not infallible.

[@GrislyAtoms12]

"If you don't have a problem with Hell there is something wrong with you." First words out of Peter Kreeft's mouth, and Matt Fradd agrees with him! REPENT YOU BLASPHEMERS! HOW DARE YOU PASS JUDGEMENT ON GOD??? IS THERE SOMETHING WRONG WITH JESUS??? Matthew 25: “31.When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations[a] will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. ...41 [c]Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 [d]Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” HARD DOWN VOTE FOR THIS DISGUSTING BLASPHEMY!

[@britaahonen1489]

Or is it, two people facing each other, this is that, ..feeling of,... Your in an inescapable world.....?

[@danrocky2553]

There’s something wrong with me as to me the existence of hell is more obvious than heaven

[@friedawells6860]

I don't think that's wrong at all. I think if you take a really honest look at the world, it is much easier to deduce the existence of hell than it is the existence of heaven. I think in our society takes many of the values that come from Christianity completely for granted like redemption, forgiveness, hope, and transcendant love. The pagan philosopher Aritotle named and systematized all the virtues (justice, courage, prudence etc.) in 300 BC and he did not include love, hope and faith. St. Thomas Aquinas added those three later as the divine virtues. You cannot uncover love, hope and faith as virtues without revelation from God, these three things are not naturally occuring in our world in their selfless form. I might love someone in hopes that they would love and care for me, but I cannot simply love someone apart from myself without God. Without God how can I have hope? Without God my life will end in death without any possibility of heaven. Faith in heaven without God? Impossible. We have forgotten that these values came from Christ, and we take God's love for granted and cannot imagine hell for that reason. We have forgotten that death, corruption and hell was the regular state of affairs before Christ. This is why people dislike the Old Testament so much for all the violence and horrible things that happen, but they forget that that is what humanity is like without God, but they mistake God's goodness for their own; they think, "we are too good to go to hell" when they should think, "God is so merciful that he saves us from hell."

[@MikePasqqsaPekiM]

We all struggle with various parts of the faith.

[@hunterkarr5618]

@@friedawells6860⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️

[@HonestInjury]

I imagine Heaven in God's presence would be worse than fire in Hell... if you hate God...

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

I believe the children of Fatima before the adults with misplaced stigmatas.

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

We send ourselves to Hell, it's not a place, it's a state of being.

[@jonnyw82]

I don’t believe most Christians truly believe in hell. If they did, they would sell their possessions and dedicate every waking hour to evangelizing the lost. But they don’t. Do they hate their neighbor or only pretend they believe in hell?

[@rickfilmmaker3934]

God created Souls. Of course He can snuff them out of existence in final judgement if they are completely irredeemable.

[@howardl9790]

Is this implying annihilationism?

[@cassandraboll1853]

I loved 95% of what was said, but I disagree with the characterization of animals. I have been around animals all my life, and believe they feel much more and more complex emotions than we sometimes think.

[@Pietrosavr]

I think people anthropomorphise animals way too much these days. They are not like us. We definitely feel more than them, even from just a purely secular perspective, our brains are way more advanced and attuned towards feelings. Animals can look in the mirror and recognize that it's a reflection of their body, but they don't recognise their own consciousness, in fact they can't really recognise any highly abstract concepts. Because of this, they lack the ability to recognise their feelings, they feel them, but they don't have any feelings about their feelings. Animals will never complain "why has this happened to me", they just accept all suffering that comes and do what they do best. A cat or a dog can lose a leg and be happy as soon as it heals, just working with the three legs they've got. Humans on the other hand will despair about that fact sometimes for their entire life. The amputation is long gone, the pain has stopped, but the mental suffering continues for us and not for them.

[@dontewithdragons]

The difference between animals and humans is animals operate on pure instinct. Everything is conditioned, everything is a reaction. There is no real self actualization. Nearly everything is needs based from practically the pyramid of needs. If you don't have food, shelter, or some other materialistic benefit, animals with practically ignore us no matter how nice we were to them. All these animals we really love as "pets" is a combination of selective breeding and domestication. This is why we as humans have stewardship over animals, including apes even if we believe in evolution. Because we were given the moral and rational capacities to be responsible enough to handle stewardship.

[@johnphipps4105]

​@@dontewithdragonsI am sorry, but both you guys are wrong. Remember the donkey that spoke in the bible. Just because animals are far more than many give credit for(not necessarily human like in the actual sense), does not diminish human dignity, rather it contempletes it. If animals can have so much to them, how much more do we, as images and children of God, have to us. Read Jack london's white fang, it actually gives a pretty decent view of how animals think dn how they view us. Take care and God bless

[@GerberdingFamily217]

Animals are capable of doing good and being moral and ethical but they’re not capable of reflecting on those deeds after the fact.

[@michaelhoude8332]

Hell is not a time thing, wouldn't one second away from the beatific vision of God be eternal once we say no to eternity. If God chooses to erase Hell once the doors of heaven are closed for eternity, Hell will have lived it as an eternity anyway.

[@samwisegamgee2488]

IDK man, there really isn't a good (biblical) case for purgatory's existence.

[@simonslater9024]

to howard - what about Satanist’s who know full well who there rejecting

[@Dienekes678]

They are in for a rude awakening. They think they will be favoured in hell. We are all made in Gods image. Satan hates all of us, Satanists included.

[@Tzutzu7]

PURGATORY not even in the bible. God will judge base on what you do. thats why those who believe in purgatory do what they want here and waiting for purgatory? thats why people who believe in purgatory dont want to change now.

[@menandermenandros5532]

So many silly, nonsensical concepts surround this concept of hell. If time is not like what we experience, then it either is not time in any way we can imagine it, or the souls of the afterlife are simply frozen in ecstasy, if they reached heaven, or horror, if they reached hell. Neither makes any sense. How can angels fall if time has no meaning, if the concept of choice means anything time must be imagined in some sense. So the idea that we cannot change after death simply doesn’t make sense. Worse, if hell is eternal punishment, then God created us knowing there would be some point of no return where we would suffer unimaginably without any hope. How could even God justify that sort of premise if we believe the truth that God is love? It is nonsensical. But if hell is retributive, then all things can have some sort of meaning. People balk when one suggests that eventually, with unimaginable suffering, even the evilest of all people can be eventually redeemed by fire. And yet, to not believe that means that God thought it good to create some beings knowing their inevitable destiny would be endless suffering. I submit to you that those who are angered that Hitler might be given a second chance, even in the fires of Hell, are acting in an un-Christian fashion, out of pure petty human intuition. If souls are damned forever then the Devil always wins. There is no final victory of good over evil. Just some dualist notion of one team vs another. No end to the game, just a hope that you get on the winning side.

[@howardl9790]

Well put comment. Who do you listen to/read?

[@menandermenandros5532]

@@howardl9790 I am predominantly Catholic in my views, but I think the Universalist perspective on hell is the only one that makes sense. David Bentley Hart, Thomas Talbott, Gregory MacDonald(pseudonym), Robin Parry, all have good overviews on the subject.

[@nickt4279]

Several fascinating things about this exchange: 1) they admit that Hell is morally problematic, 2) they admit that basic questions needed to assess the reasonableness of hell, such as whether we can change our minds after death, they don't have an answer for, 3) Hell is an explicitly, intentionally fear-based recruitment tactic. Yet they still believe it must be so on faith. Wild.

[@Floridiansince94]

Didn’t Christ go “down” to release those who were waiting for him namely, Adam and Eve, Abraham etc??????? Hell is very real! It is all over the Bible - we will find out all about it in our last hour!

[@simonslater9024]

It’s we who damn ourselves

[@Tene-xh9vl]

I don't believe that's always the case.y hubby commits all types of so called sin but he's saved because he accepted Christ and only Christ.

[@howardl9790]

If you truly knew God, would you reject him? If you truly knew what hell was, would you want to go there? We are bound by sin and cannot see clearly right now. I don’t believe anyone in their right, rational mind would choose to go to hell.

[@NMemone]

​@howardl9790 "We are bound by sin and cannot see clearly right now". Brother, you have no idea how much I needed to hear this message today. It hit me on a deep level and clarified some questions and frustrations I have been dealing with lately. THANK YOU.

[@simonslater9024]

@@Tene-xh9vl to be saved on one’s death bed ie when one dies one must be totally loyal obedient to the infallible Catholic Church because it’s the ONLY CHURCH and there’s NO salvation outside the holy Catholic Church.

[@howardl9790]

@@NMemone Praised be Jesus Christ. Glad I could help, brother❤️🤝🏼

[@victoriabokanvsky2674]

SOOOOO…people like Caligula, Judas, or Beria are in heaven according to the orthodox “prickly fella”?? Purgatory means purification for a certain time (God’s timeframe). Some are there until the end of the world according to Sister Lucia. However, it’s a place where you know that you are going towards the beatific vision from there. We are battling it out and vulnerable to falling prey to the worst sins , losing faith, and worse, charity. It’s getting harder and I feel as if I am wasting time and at the same time nothing matters. The weight of humanity is too much for me. I have constant morning sickness because of the sticky filthy lies, indifference, gloating and so much more. I’m embarrassed for all of America when discussing with other cultures and more embarrassed for all humanity with God

[@retroasf7825]

DBH's That All Shall Be Saved is a well-argued yet ultimately incorrect book. He believes in postmortem pugatorial purification. He says that it'll take Hitler aeons upon aeons to be purified but eventually he will be saved too, so I guess it also applies to Judas, etc.

[@MDS31415]

Despair is a sin. Many rejected the Messiah, in person. Why should we do better? Go forth and be joyful in the knowledge of eternity and know unexpected changes of heart can and do happen.

[@minasoliman]

This is a poor presentation of David Bentley Hart. He like other universalists does not deny Hell. And he does not deny free will either. You would to do better to “refute” Hart. But I don’t think you can. Because we see through a mirror “dimly” and this is a reality “neither eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor heart can contemplate” fully. I think both possibilities (eternal and temporal) of hell have truth in them, and need to be seen not as doctrinal, but as theological options and as necessary for didactics for the upbringing of the masses (as in Christ’s usage of hell), until one reaches such spiritual heights where hell does not matter anymore in their thinking (or heaven) but rather unity with God. And this is what the desert fathers teach. Furthermore, what is a “true free” will? If one in sin has a shackled free will, where he can make choices, but the choice for good becomes harder, how much more those in hell who continually “chooses” to reject God? What does “eternal” mean? Is never ending, or beyond time, that which we can’t conceive? These questions are very difficult to answer, so why expect that there is a definitive answer on hell?

[@SeaJay_Oceans]

Sure, Hell is GAZA :-(

[@krzysztofchylinski6252]

Literally no one say "hell doesn't exist", including Bentley-Heart. It's wether it's empty (even P. Kreeft said id right here, the question is population of hell). Thanks for the strawman Matt. The issue is that no sin is infinite (not in duration by nature), so it doesn't deserve infinite in nature (not "in duration") punishment: definite separation from God.

[@DManCAWMaster]

Yes it is make believe

[@Krehfish534]

Don't like hell? Avoid it.

[@sebozz2046]

I deny Jesus

[@brendamyc3173]

Hell is real. If you want to experience the closest human equivalent of what it could be like move to Florida.

[@lucygoogoo8876]

NYC or London is better example