Is it time to Drop Push-Back Nosecones from Karting?

[@donpowell3952]

I totally agree with you that they don’t work as intended. The only ones to get penalized by it are the ones involved in a unintentional collision.

[@jimjohnstone2641]

Every single pushback penalty my son has been given, was a result of being rear ended and slammed forward into another kid. When I argued that, I always got "doesn't matter, that's the rules"

[@TheGlobalMind]

@@jimjohnstone2641 Yep, absolutely accurate.

[@andrewzimmerofficial]

Excellent video. Definitely a discussion that needs to be had most tracks and series don’t want to discuss. Really needs to start from Europe and trickle down like everything does

[@OakmanOnRacing]

That is often how it works. Though in North American 4-cycle racing CKNA dropped them and the racing has been fairly good. Not any different than with them.

[@andrewzimmerofficial]

@ yes just the rest of the country is not on board with ckna yet

[@kartaroundtheworld]

I race Rotax and as you may know, on the race starts, all the drivers are glued together in the tram lines. The kart from behind is glued to your rear bumper and you are glued with the kart in front. It only needs someone to lightly tap the brake and a chain reaction starts. The kart from behind you push you to the front and your nosecone will drop. I must say that, because I'm usually not in P1, in 50% of my races I have the nosecone dropped durint the race starts. So what is the point ?

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@kartaroundtheworld here in Canada drivers and series have adjusted their starts to some degree for that reason. Series that use an acceleration line (ASN affiliated) have let starts get faster to create separation and have basically abandoned the line. Does result in more lap one crashes though. Series that use the Kartsport acceleration zone (like NASCAR) shifted to mush slower starts and drivers are able to keep a bit of separation without worrying about brake checking as much. Also means far less lap one crashes.

[@jjchat99]

I was in favor of them when originally proposed. I saw the main benefit as cleaning up the starts. The downfall I have seen is officials defaulting or otherwise not officiating and just letting the bumper "make the call"; this becomes especially egregious when a driver is caught up in an incident of others making, makes contact, continues on to a solid finish only to be penalized after the fact with an official not using any "professional judgement". Combined with the manufacturers efforts to design around it, the unintended consequences now outweigh the intended effects.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

The problem for officials is both in the rulebook and what they saw. Some rulebooks basically say the push back is or is not activated, leaving no room for interpretation. But even if an official chooses to ignore that, which is problematic in itself, how can a race director know for sure that the bumper wasn’t activated before the crash in a race? There is a lot happening and a lot of karts. How do they have time to even investigate without a series providing an official specifically for that?

[@anthonyfrattaroliracing]

As a completely unbiased driver who has definitely never been screwed by a drop down bumper for a first lap incident I can say with confidence that they should be removed completely… kidding keep them, just allow for protesting and for judgment by officials that have equal weighing as the actually drop

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Hahahaha. Never happened eh? The question is how to protest effectively where it can be proven that the bumper was not previously activated, and then after activation, wasn't subsequently used inappropriately. Most clubs and even regional series don't have the personnel to review that much footage. It is possible, though.

[@HTOP1982]

Best solution? rig a brake lever ahead of the nose cone. You punt, you brake, you lose time

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@HTOP1982 interesting idea. Calibration strikes me as the key to making that work.

[@tedecker3792]

What happens to the third kart when the two in front bump and kart 2 unexpectedly brakes? An equally bad idea. How about learning to drive without making contact?

[@HTOP1982]

@tedecker3792 kart 2 won't come to a standstill. The speed differential against a moving kart won't be enormous. The only problem would be if a kart would face an object that presented a constant resistance., at which point it is no different than any other crash. I don't think the problem is not knowing to drive, but choosing to punt

[@stevensracing2229]

The problem with push-back nosecones in the UK, especially in national championships, is that people have found ways around them such as sanding down the nosecones to soften them up. Because of this, I've had drivers slam into the back of me constantly in races without getting penalised. From my point of view, push-back nosecones sounded like a good idea until people found a way to avoid getting penalised.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

We regularly check here in Canada. We look for knurling, adhesive, overly tight clips that cant be released and reattached by hand. We even measure the straightness of the slide and the distance between the dog-house and upper bumper pinch point to ensure people haven’t created divots in the slide. Surprisingly the only thong we regularly catch is clips that are too tight. We often make classes attach their bumpers on grid so they cant use tools.

[@gigatoaster608]

I’m not a big fan of the system either, but I have to admit that it has made a difference in Europe. Sure, it can still be exploited to some extent, but I recommend anyone who claims it’s useless to take a look at how we drove in Europe before the system was in place. The video I recommend for this is: CIK-FIA Euro Championship - 2014 - Kristianstad - KFJ Final.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@gigatoaster608 early on they worked very well. The older stiffer bodywork made them very sensitive. Now, especially in two cycle, drivers are back to their older tricks. Maybe not quite as bad as when I was racing in the 2000’s. but not far off. Great video recco.

[@BennHerr]

We do Road Race (Long Track) and don't call out push back in our rules. Nobody runs them. They are just another thing to cause problems.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

There are a few series in Ontario that don't use them. I Race Direct for CKNA here and they don't. The racing is pretty much the same as the other series I Race Direct and Steward that do use them.

[@Jdmusic101]

I guess we've all forgotten what the 2022 SKUSA Winter Series looked like when PBBs were removed from round 1 and 2. Those races are still on Kart Chaser's channel if anyone needs a refresh on the bloodbath from that weekend

[@OakmanOnRacing]

I've seen those. And several others. Unfortunately, it is often a failure of officiating, or an unwillingness for officials to make those calls for several possible reasons. The fact is that if a hit is hard enough that it should have activated a push-back, it is a penalty, regardless of whether the bumpers are run or not.

[@Jdmusic101]

@@OakmanOnRacing Across 16 main events that weekend, there were 37 penalties assessed. Majority were the X30 classes. And that's not including the DQ's for physical contact in the scale line. So what's the officiating issue for this particular weekend? You can look on SpeedHive for yourself if you don't believe me.

[@jean-charlesplante7027]

A bummer being dq’ed because 3 people spun in front of you and nowhere to go…I have even seen them activate in wet,very wet actually,conditions when crossing a deep puddle.Good intention,but too many drawbacks imoho.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

I've seen puddles and even curbing activate them, but those are fairly rare circumstances. Running through the grass can do it too, but cutting the track should come with a penalty anyway. I agree though, good intentions but many problems.

[@trigun7469]

I road race on car tracks where the draft is critical and these noses suck, because the minute you make the smallest tap to draft to try and catch the next person your bumper is dragging. So I had to zip tie it so it doesn't go back.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Sounds like you're bumpers are really sensitive. What push-back system do you use? Also, zip-tieing the bumper is super illegal everywhere I work. Probably is where you race if they are required.

[@dme2453]

Mandatory front bumper made by one approved manufacturer. Build in an ignition cutoff with a small time delay into it so it gives you a time penalty when you need a time out.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Mandatory manufacturer with tight tolerances could work. A delayed ignition cutoff is problematic for safety on a straight in traffic, but also means nothing on the entry to a corner.

[@mikem1086]

I have raced at Goodwood . Fun track! But I have on occasion been the receiving end of a whack from behind sending me into the kart in front.I get the penalty for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.Try to argue your point and it falls on deaf ears!

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Yeah. Goodwood club uses the Kartsport Canada ruleset that basically says the bumper is activated or it isn’t. There isn’t room for officials to decide how. Plus the difficulty for a competitor to prove the activation was not the driver’s fault is a high barrier.

[@SgtCheemsy]

i volunteered as a marshall at a track one weekend for a karting tournament, the one big thing i noticed was how in every race there were 2 or 3 people who would have a pushback and get a penalty for it, its definitely a flawed system.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Thank you for volunteering. Tracks always need good people to help out.

[@JSmith19858]

Energy can't be destroyed and the bumper flexing won't change that. If the bumper is deforming and not moving off the mount then 30lbs of force isn't being imparted in to the Kart in front. That's the point of them, to limit the force imparted in to the Kart in front. It's purpose isn't being defeated, it's working as intended. I'd rather not go back to the days of straight being pushed off line by someone lunging at me

[@OakmanOnRacing]

You seem to be confused. But the specific point is that Push-Back nose cones are not working as intended. I’m not advocating for the removal of nosecones entirely.

[@JSmith19858]

@@OakmanOnRacing I'm not saying they should be removed entirely. I'm saying you fail to grasp basic physics. The intention is to stop you bumping the Kart ahead, it doesn't matter how much they spring they will still limit that force to the same amount. If they deform and lift the Kart ahead up then it needs to be regulated

[@nightkil13r]

I would have to look it up who it was but there is at least one series that they measure the height of the nose cone from the ground in addition to the push back, that way if you do have one that tends to deflect down odds are if you use it that way itll be too low for the regulations and you can be penalized. Not sure if this was track specific or regional or even if it was in the UK though, im thinking it was a florida track from memory though.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Id love to have a look at that rule if you can remember.

[@TheGlobalMind]

I know some folks think they helped when initially introduced. However, I'd say at least in the US, they're pointless. It's a guilty verdict regardless of WHY it deployed. And therein is the issue. We aren't really penalizing bad actors here as most of these are from being hit from behind or a side impact hitting someone who spun in front of you. Drivers will just use the bumper a plow and drive worse if they know they are going to get a penalty regardless. The WHY matters.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@TheGlobalMind the WHY always matters. For officials the problem with tracing how it was deployed is a problem. Its not always obvious when a pushback is activated and they usually wont know if the pushback was activated before the crash. Also, the rulebook determines if officials have the leeway to make judgement calls for specific rules. The series I work for don’t.

[@ot77racing27]

It is a good thing when it is from a racing pushing / firing someone off point of view. It is a poor thing when there is brake checking during a rolling start, or when involved in an accident that has nothing to do with you.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Brake checking on a start is usually illegal. I have penalized drivers for it, though I do feel we could be more on top of it. Luckily it hasn't been a major issue at the series I work at. But it is a risk if officials aren't looking for it.

[@AFFMotorsport]

Having raced for a long time, starting with no plastics, racing was cleaner back then, these days with plastics you can easily push past people.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@AFFMotorsport was it cleaner? I started in 91 with no bodywork and single row metal side bars and there was lots of contact back then.

[@bai7200]

We just got then in 24, and now you can get through the first lap without getting pushed off. Saying they dont work at all is way of the board.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

They can still work if the hit is hard enough, but most racers, especially in the regional and international series, have up-to-date bodywork that is designed to not activate, meaning that the hits that move a kart out of the way are not usually hard enough to cause activation. Thus, defeating their purpose.

[@hungrysurfer9471]

What about bump drafting away from the following pack ?

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@hungrysurfer9471 bump-drafting has never really been affected by the pushback systems. It happens all the time, even back when the systems worked properly.

[@mrmcgridles3924]

As someone that raced Karts for 12 years, currently racing prototypes. RUBBING IS RACING. Especially in karting, slower and more nimble, you can get away with much rougher racing. Contrary to assumptions, this creates a cleaner racer in higher classes. You can learn by trial and error what you can get away with

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Part of the creation of the push-back system was as a training tool for driver development to simulate the damage to the front wing an open wheel car would suffer.

[@kylestrycharz2426]

I would say remove the front bumpers as crazy as it sounds. It's an obvious safety hazard so it will never happen, but maybes there's a design out there where the chassis takes the hit first (obviously worse for the driver) leave the back bumpers on and call it a day. The fear of damaging your kart will calm most of the bump n runners down. I also think you let the kids beat and bang and create a "junior" masters class ages 21-35.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

I agree we won't get rid of plastic bumpers. And personally I think we are better off with them. Modern 4cycle chassis are so soft that they bend in fairly minor incidents anyway, but that doesn't stop people. As an official, I feel the push-back system is a good idea that just needs policing on the manufacturing side. But how to do that is a harder question to answer.

[@billevans4991]

Would like to see the end of push back penalties as well.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

More series are getting rid of them. You may see it around you sooner than later.

[@EthanOring]

I just push the bumper with my leg on track 😅

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@EthanOring I’ve seen a lot of people try and get DQd for it. Always seems tougher than it looks with the newer softer nosecones.

[@EthanOring]

@ yeah it’s not easy. You need long legs

[@hungrysurfer9471]

1990s hard nose cones were better for racing and saftey.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@hungrysurfer9471 I miss them and the look of the old breadbox side pods. Looked tough.

[@elGa_tUrRo]

Stupid rule indeed, almost 90% of the time it's useless as it gets easily triggered at the starts or when somebody crashes infront of you, in which case, you already lost time so what's the point of getting penalized

[@OakmanOnRacing]

If it activated on a start then either the front row wasn't running an even pace (which is usually illegal and should be penalized) or the driver is making contact before the flag which is sometimes illegal, but also usually the drivers fault. Getting pushed by two or three Karts can be controlled by the brakes. More than that and, yeah, you're a passenger, but that shouldn't be the most common instances. Tuck in on the bumper of the kart ahead if you're going to push and stay there so you can't build momentum for a hit before the flag, or give yourself room to survive the start. Either way, there are options. Lobbying your series for slow starts can make a huge difference. That or really fast starts where karts can separate. The in between speeds always causes a mess. Crash activations are the ones I hate most and very much the most common that I see. In the vides, none of the contact you see resulted in an activation. But there were some in the crash clips.

[@rylandduesburry8986]

Rule needs to be evolved and has to be supplemented with a torque spec

[@OakmanOnRacing]

A torque spec doesnt solve the problems I describe. A spec bumper would. Or at least standardized shapes and materials with crash testing for manufacturers.

[@darthvenimousa4629]

100% non sense penalty. Time to evolve the rules!!!

[@charleshulsey3103]

Ditch nose cones in general.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Insurance and general safety will probably keep that from happening. But you never know. A series may arise that does just that.

[@justinkazmar8507]

Just institute a new rule that outlaws nose cones. When I raced karts only the privileged kids had nose cones.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Same with me at the beginning of my career. But that won't happen for the obvious safety reasons. Officiating, and giving officials the tools to do so are the only way forward.

[@miguelr7238]

Cameras and telemetry gear are too cheap nowadays to keep using caveman's technology.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

The cost of the people to run and review them hold series back.

[@miguelr7238]

@@OakmanOnRacing I disagree. You don't need stewards watching all cameras as in major series. All that is needed is a gap of time between the end of a race and the official results. Just sit at wait for drivers to bring up the issues, then review, then hand a penalty or not.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@@miguelr7238 It takes longer than you think. I work several series where we have inquiries that require camera footage. Competitors have limited time to get their inquiry in. Usually twenty minutes to a half hour after posting for the last session. Posting doesn’t happen instantly. And then I have to make time to review and make a call before their next race. If the calls take around five minutes or so and the inquiry comes in just before deadline thats 35 minutes or more. And if you get more than one thats more time. Few series schedule that much time between races. Reducing the time for inquiries to come in has a limit because competitors need time to transfer footage and review it themselves to find what they are looking for. Point is, I deal with this on a regular basis. The race director doesn’t have time to sit a wait. Series want things moving. And to do that you need other staff to at least pre-review or a steward to make calls. Or they have the race director make reviews during another race which means they are not watching whats happening on track.

[@miguelr7238]

@@OakmanOnRacing Well that's an impediment for sure. But one thing is for certain, the pushbacks suck, they never work fairly, ever. So then develop a new system altogether because the current one not only doesn't work but also makes a mess for teams and drivers unfairly penalized. Maybe don't call it on the day, review later and hand post race penalties. The main goal here is to accurately penalize while avoiding unfair penalties. Break checks caught on camera don't need more than 10 seconds of review, break checker gets penalized. Also, cameras will improve the disastrous rolling starts. I think drivers will behave more like pro's after getting post race (post celebration) penalties becomes the norm. Kind of like they did in soccer with VAR.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

@ they are an issue for sure. It will be interesting to see how series deal with it going forward.

[@Metal05]

My son always got a nose , because of someone else pushing him into someone else. Stupid rules, stupid results. This is not fair racing, now we have left X30, and going into full size cars.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

If you’re going oval racing he’ll get to use the bumper a lot. Lol

[@andrewcoulter299]

Yes, stupidest thing to ever hit karting.

[@OakmanOnRacing]

Good at first, but without proper policing of designs they have certainly become a problem.