Is Messmer a God-Tier Boss? A Fight Analysis [Elden Ring DLC]

Brief discussion about Messmer, a top-tier fight in Shadow of the Erdtree. This video is by no means comprehensive, just my initial reflections after beating him yesterday. Hope you enjoy :)
#eldenring #gaminganalysis

[@jermergerg]

What's your favorite aspect of the fight? Let me know in the comments!

[@EXQUIS1T3]

Ima cheat a little and say the transition cutscene. It’s up there with Malenia and horah loux

[@HeyTarnished]

Everything is peak but his grab attack along with his speech whenever he kills you always gets me lol.

[@GodWarsX]

When that phase 1 chorus hits

[@starsinthenight1167]

my favorite part is the 4 combo attack he does at like 75% hp, so fun to dodge

[@ethanwashington6789]

​@@HeyTarnished yeah the really violent sound design on the impaling part of the grab might be my fav part of the fight

[@mingQWERTY]

Messmer's most likely somewhere in my top 5 Fromsoft bosses with fellow masterpieces like Isshin, Soul of Cinder and Orphan of Kos. He's the embodiment of Elden Ring's boss design but done extremely well, even more so than Morgott who was my favourite boss in Elden Ring before the DLC. His attacks prevent you from panic rolling, nearly every attack has a punishing window and if you're using a faster weapon you can even hit him during his thrusting attacks and that air combo with the 5 rapid thrusts has got to be one of the most satisfying thing to dodge in a Fromsoft game

[@BlacklistedSoup]

For sure. Messmer is my new favorite boss

[@bobdylanlovr69]

I beat messmer and still haven’t figured out how to reliably dodge the rapid thrusts

[@mingQWERTY]

@@bobdylanlovr69 Dodge towards him or run away and then dodge on the 5th and final thrust. It's a very deceiving attack as it looks like the hitbox is bigger than it is. If you roll towards him and then stand still he will literally do 0 damage to you for some reason when he slams down. Then you finish it off with a roll for the ground spears and punish him

[@jermergerg]

So I fought him like a billion times for my no-damage video, and at this point I think I have a bit of insight, but I could be wrong. There's actually not one single strategy, because it is contingent on how far back he goes for step three. Step one, he ascends into the air with a fire swipe. You never need to dodge this, as it doesn't hit you. Step two is a mid-air fire swipe, which you want to dodge inwards for. Then comes the tricky part. He'll fly backwards, but the distance varies a lot. He'll fly only a short distance if he hits the edge of the arena, or if you move inwards towards him too much in between step one and two. For this close/mid-range retreat, you do want to dodge in as you noted. However, when the arena's wall isn't in his way, and if you stay mostly still in between steps one and two, he'll retreat quite far back. If you try to dodge inwards for this, the spear thrusts will invariably catch you, so this is when you want to run away. You run and then hit dodge about 1 second into the spear thrusts--just like you mentioned, the initial spear thrusts will actually come down on your sides and not hit you, so it's only the end of the thrust move that you need to dodge. Tl;dr, if he flies really far back, run away and dodge; if he flies close, dodge in.

[@jermergerg]

see my replay below!

[@Eternal_Placidity]

Messmer is not only a masterpiece of a boss, but he’s the first shape-shifting boss that fromsoft has made as far as I know. Which is insanely cool. In my opinion he deserves two health bars.

[@shinyhydreigon7257]

Something that stood out to me when I first fought him is just how visceral every attack sounds. You can FEEL the impact of his spear thrusting or dragging along the ground, the sound of the fire explosion at the start of the fight is like a warning. And how could I forget the grab attack, the spear thrust is almost a jump scare the first time you see it, its so good. My only real gripe with the fight itself is I wish he attacked just a bit faster, or in his second phase, transistioned out of the snake attacks quicker. Also you can jump both variants of the spear drag, just jump earlier than you think you should and its a free jumping R2.

[@bobdylanlovr69]

I agree the snake transitions are too punishable

[@best_mate456]

Yeah is like radagon ground punch 🤛

[@jamiesullivan6602]

Loved this fight; easily the highlight of the DLC. As you said, its fun, fast, and rhythmic without becoming incomprehensible. Unlike a certain other boss fight >_>

[@GodWarsX]

Which fight is incomprehensible?

[@mingQWERTY]

@@GodWarsX He's probably referring to Promised Consort's phase 2 with the light beam flashbangs

[@jamiesullivan6602]

@@GodWarsX stormy boi is one that’s tough because he loves knocking you into the wall and the camera goes haywire, and then Prince Lothric 2: Divine Boogaloo is the big one that I was thinking of (not sure if we’re still doing no spoilers)

[@homiespaghetti1522]

​@@GodWarsX obviously he's talking about the final boss

[@squinttt]

I still can't believe my friend dunked on this guy in just three tries. He wasn't even using busted weapons, or any affinities.

[@austin0_bandit05]

Haven't fought him enough to really give a good analysis. But I was thrilled when I found out you can jump over his lunge in the 2nd phase. Definitely the peak of the DLC.

[@jermergerg]

ooooo I didn't know that! That's sick I'll have to try it!

[@coraline2770]

When i beat him i was like i really wish there was a way to respawn bosses so i can fight him again

[@LAK_770]

His delivery of “Mother…” in the final release is so great. It perfectly and unambiguously captures the “tsk tsk” tone and conveys his confused and disillusioned feelings. This guy had a small paragraph’s worth of lines and fleshed out a character for the ages. And mechanically the fight is absolutely top-tier, can’t praise it enough. Started an entirely new playthrough just to create a save state so I can fight him over and over.

[@HeyTarnished]

Great video as always! I love how you have a spacious vocabulary to articulate how you examine stuff in the game very clearly & specifically, and English isn’t my native language. I love that, I learned a bunch of words from listening to your videos, oh I digress, yes Messmer the hype is real indeed! ❤🎉

[@MilkyJoe73]

I've been fighting this boss allot lately testing stuff out and he just keeps getting better. There are so many different ways to aproach him its sooo goood. For example, you can jump over or strafe around the delayed thrust he does when he drags his spear on the ground. You can even use the wing stance ash of war to fly over it and get a big hit. You can also jump over many of his spin/sweep attacks and even the big thrust dash thing he does in phase 2 after every combo. Might be my favourite fromsoft boss ever and I keep finding stuff which makes him even better. What a masterfully crafted treat of a boss.

[@stut7177]

He felt a bit like a modern Artorias to me, as you learn his moves the fight begins to flow really nicely. I think he's the best boss in ER.

[@cartergammage1540]

This a great video. I totally agree about the second phase. I was so worried it was going to be a sloppy mess with terrible snake hit boxes and timings after such an amazing first phase. The perfect balance of spectacle and mechanics

[@jermergerg]

Thanks!!

[@nayyarrashid4661]

1:42. Great observation and great point.

[@alpacaofthemountain8760]

The fact that he sticks to melee most of the time like Midra (just watched your video on him) makes the fight much more learnable. Ranged attacks often have those hitboxes where you have to look up the dodge, but melee usually tells you how to dodge it as soon as you see it. You just gotta make the dodge

[@MissChambersxo]

On my second playthrough of the DLC I was having so much fun with Messmer that I intentionally let me kill me at 1HP just so I could keep doing the fight. He’s so fun to fight, while also being a masterpiece in terms of story and spectacle.

[@dougdynamo9398]

I've played through the DLC 4x, and I always save him for last before Enir-Elim. He's up there with the best they've ever made, but he could've cleared as my favorite fight if they fleshed out his character more, gave him a more impactful 2nd phase, and kept the trailer reading of his lines (yes, it makes more sense, but the presentation in the trailer is so much better).

[@EXQUIS1T3]

Messmer might have replaced Malenia as my favorite elden ring boss. I'm doing runs with dlc weapons and I'll find out how Malenia will now be

[@EXQUIS1T3]

The only issue I have with Messmer is his grab seems a bit too delayed to the point of uncanniness. But it's so miniscule in the glory of all of his other moves

[@Ghorda9]

@@EXQUIS1T3 i don't think it's too delayed, it looks natural to me. i just need to hold the dodge a little longer.

[@EXQUIS1T3]

@@Ghorda9 I mean in comparison to his general moveset. It's more in line with the base game delays

[@best_mate456]

@@EXQUIS1T3tbh is like Godfrey when he delay his grab

[@nayyarrashid4661]

Question is how many tries does it take an average player to get used to his moves? I remember when I was fighting Nameless King it took me over a week to iust beat him but I actually learnt to dodge his moves during my second playthrough when I switched my build to melee (quality). First time it is just the exploration for me looking out different enemy variety and areas and what else is there in the world. I will probably never learn the moves in ER properly due to the fact that there are spirit summons in the game.

[@Mr9-ball]

I’m so glad someone enjoys as much as me. This was a really good analysis, keep up the good work man.

[@coraline2770]

Feel real bad for him Mamas boy learned that she didnt love or care for him right at the very end

[@stevenobrien7686]

He’s easily the peak of the DLC for me.

[@sanield2782]

Im still working through SotE but Messmer already has me hyped to return in another playthrough/NG cycle.

[@mobilemetal4554]

I was so pumped when I beat this guy. This is peak boss design.

[@thething1733]

Bro you deserve more views man

[@Dominik0-0]

Amazing video Honestly I did not want to kill him, he did not deserve any of this. Imagine what a great guy he would’ve been if his mother wasn’t a coward

[@jermergerg]

Thanks! He's definitely a victim of Marika's tyranny, but he's also a perpetrator. I think he bears some responsibility for how heinous his deeds were, so I wasn't too sad about getting rid of him lol.

[@Dominik0-0]

@@jermergerg I can understand that 😭💖

[@RyleyStorm]

So messmer disappointed me when I fought him because I beat him in 4 tries while at sl 125 with +9 scadutree blessings, I am gonna try my level 1 run so I can learn to dance and enjoy this.

[@allandm]

I wish I could fight him again without having to play through the entire game again

[@jermergerg]

If you play on PC, Cheat Engine has a boss revival feature. Not sure if they've updated it to include DLC bosses, but they work fast. But yeah on console you're kinda screwed which sucks.

[@allandm]

@@jermergerg I'm on ps5

[@chinchliff]

The snake bit is creepy as hell

[@best_mate456]

Did you the the amount of detail it went to those snake Like whats in his mouth 😅

[@lorenfulghum2393]

Would you be interested in doing some playtesting for an indie Souls-like ARPG currently in development? Your videos are very thoughtfully done.

[@jermergerg]

Yeah that sounds very cool!

[@rigorm136]

The only thing I hate about messmer is that sometimes he can still activate attacks even while inside his death animation.

[@jermergerg]

Oh weird, haven't seen that!

[@kamilmalach6383]

Nice!

[@cataclysmicacedia824]

I only wish he had a second health bar

[@BBQcheese]

I will watch this after I've mastered the fight myself but you should really do Rellana as well my opinion has only improved in that boss the more I've learned her!

[@jermergerg]

I'll go back to her eventually but I need a break from her--she traumatized me haha. I was able to beat her after not that long and enjoyed the fight, but the no-hit was absolutely brutal. One of the worst I've done. It was so easy to just get caught a single time and have to start over. Absolutely painful.

[@BBQcheese]

​@@jermergerg Yeah the phalanx can be really rough in certain situations

[@AceAviations2]

As someone who isn't a fan of most of the notable endgame bosses in the base game, I actually found Messmer to be a REALLY good fight, however there are three things that hold the fight back for me; 1. The grab hitbox is too big, this is the *ONLY* part of the fight that I feel absolutely needs to be nerfed slightly, I'm sorry but I shouldn't be getting grabbed if I never made contact with his hand. This isn't Dark Souls 2, so grab hitboxes that bad stick out. 2. The delayed spear thrust (seen from 3:24-3:26) feels like it has a lingering hitbox without the fire and has a bit too much tracking. By that I mean I roll into him and even after he stops moving I get hit. 3. Fire Serpent when followed up with the lunging thrust where he jumps slightly into the air feels like unavoidable damage. You either take damage from the fireball or get caught by a roll-catch with the attack, at least that's how it feels. It might be possible to avoid both hits, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like it. Those three things hold Messmer out of S-Tier and near the top of A-Tier, I legitimately felt myself getting better at the fight which is big for a late-game Elden Ring boss. The problem that I have with most Elden Ring bosses in the endgame feel like I'm gambling with RNG (Radagon in particular is the worst, I call him RNGagon for a reason), the only reason that I beat Malenia the second time around is because she only used Waterfoul once during the ENTIRE FIGHT. I legitimately find Radagon borderline unlearnable because he can pull some cheap bullshit out of the blue like spamming his double teleport 3 times in under 20 seconds (two of those were up-close btw, so four point-blank damaging teleports in my face in under ten seconds) just to screw you up. His teleport is by far the worst teleport given to any FromSoftware boss, Twin Princes had a great teleport mechanic, so how did they screw Radagon's up? Godfrey/Horrah Loux I don't like for different reasons that has to do with both phases being designed around mechanics that I find ruin boss fights, those being excessive AoE spam in phase 1.5 and excessive grab spam in phase 2, so to put it simply he feels like he was designed for me not to like him.

[@Nrzpokrter]

Godfrey AOE spam? He has exactly 1 attack in each phase that is a true AOE that forces you to get out of the hitbox zone. All other attacks of his can be rolled or jumped over and they never slow the fight down. His stomps actually speed the fight up.

[@best_mate456]

I don’t see how that put messmer out of the S tier fight I have 0 problems with his grab, yes the delay thrust fire attack does linger without any notice but when you know that you can dodge it easily especially if you can just dodge around him I don’t understand the 3rd point you making though. Overall I don’t see how messmer is being held back by those very small issues. Every boss have this at least 1 very tiny problem so I can’t see being anywhere else by S tier

[@normanbestboi9117]

He was too easy for me, i beat him in like an hour. So close to being perfect but he was so weak for me, 2nd phase in like 10 tries? Why is phase 2 at 50%? Not 0? It wouldve made him perfect 😭

[@jermergerg]

I was also surprised that he didn't have two health bars

[@best_mate456]

@@jermergergwell because people will encounter messmer as likely mid game it won’t say is worth it to do. Just giving him more health is the max they can do You can use a weaker weapon or do like a no hit challenge against him

[@MarbleStatueMillett]

Wasn’t that hard

[@ethanwashington6789]

Am i wierd for finding messmer kind of boring compared to the other dlc bosses? (lies of p boss name spoilers ahead ig) He kind of reminds me of Laxasia where the fight just feels completely stale after you learn it. Like in a 9-min fight against messmer i had (low blessing, ng+7, split dmg fire weapon), i was bored out of my mind whereas fighting a boss like malenia for 8 mins (rl9 no wep upgrades) was entertaining the entire fight. Like i just feel like messmer is lacking something and cant put my finger on it, would love to hear someone else's input

[@bobdylanlovr69]

I really don’t see how you get boring out of that fight. Not sure what to tell ya, nothing felt particularly boring

[@ethanwashington6789]

@@bobdylanlovr69 nvm revisited the boss on a new run and found some crazy openings, like immediately after the multiple stabs in his wombo combo you can katana jump r1 into another r1 and avoid his followups until the upward spears. But yeah i think it was the fight just feeling too slow-paced for me, replacing r2s with r1 spam helped a lot lol

[@best_mate456]

I have no idea how is it boring

[@bobdylanlovr69]

@@ethanwashington6789 love to hear you’ve been liking it more

[@lolly8873]

another analysis 🫰 don’t mind if I do