Is Music Math?

[@jimbinger]

Yet another, deeply thought-provoking video. Thank you.

[@Newstetter]

You're welcome!

[@allenwilliams630]

When i started playing and decided i wanted to learn a little theory. I watched all the theory masterclasses i could on you tube. That was definitely my takeaway with my limited knowledge is that music is the sound of math. Just the way the intervals work with eachother in a predictable pattern. Its "solvable " i guess you could say. Theres definitely mathematical formulas that can be applied.

[@leanandmeanproductions687]

Very smart, and so necessary!

[@Newstetter]

Thanks!

[@johnsmithy3147]

I'm liking your videos but am curious what your mathematical background is. Beethoven may not have consciously used math to compose his music, but what he arrived at through trial and error most certainly can be detrermined mathematically. Physics is a huge part of that as well; in fact math is more the language and physics the principles that dictate or describe how things work in the world. One just needs to know how to apply those principles; note names, intervals and time signatures may not directly translate mathematically but this is a matter of nomenclature and conversion factors. Just like pints, quarts, gallons, and liters are different from each other, they all describe the same thing (volume). Who knows; with a strong knowledge of math and physics (even in his day), Beethoven could have bypassed much of his trial error and may have composed more or more significant works. It would be interesting to see a collaboration between you and a physicist; I bet you'd find math more deeply embedded in music than you think

[@Newstetter]

@johnsmithy3147 , Thanks for the thoughtful comment. Glad you're enjoying the vids. Just between you and me, I'm terrible with proper math but I know some physicists and mathematicians and we have deep discussions on the subject. The language of math can apply to just about any phenomenon in the natural world and I have great respect for people with the math gene. I'm not gifted in that department and I don't have any qualms about it. I'm not trying to suggest that those folks who truly love math and are fascinated by the mathematical aspect of music are wrong. But many people have real math anxiety and often are led to believe that any mention of numbers in music theory is math. As I hope is clear in the video, numbers are not always math and number in music theory are usually just a way of counting the alphabetical note names. I think you get that. There are many great musicians who don't ever think about math ... nor do they need to. It's perfectly fine for artists to just be artists. I studied visual art and music formally, and none of my teachers spent much time discussing math. We did do a brief exploration of the golden rectangle and the fibonacci curve as part of studying ancient Greek architecture, but we weren't expected to do any equations ... just to get the basic principle. None of my music teachers talked about math either, beyond just the numbers we use to define rhythms and intervals. Sure some simple math, but nothing like the stuff that's discussed in the scholarly math analysis of Bach, Beethoven, et al. I think of making music more like painting with sounds than any kind of math. That's how my mind works. I can do some mathematical analysis of music, but only because I'm a teacher and I need to be able to answer student's questions. My heart is as an artist, and I leave math to those so inclined. So yes ... there is math everywhere, but we don't all need to be mathematicians. Anyway, I hope you continue to watch and comment. I'm always interested in a good discussion. P.S. I've just started reading a book which pertains to this subject, "Drawing Physics" by Don S. Lemons, in which he focuses on the importance of visual literacy and basic drawing skills as a way of expressing concepts in physics before considering the math. I've long believed that everyone could benefit from learning basic drawing skills. Formal visual literacy is not often considered part of science or math, but it should be.

[@johnsmithy3147]

@@Newstetter Thanks for the reply, Mark. You're right that artists can just be and that they don't "need" math but imagine what they could do if they did know it. I once heard an old school rapper remark in a documentary about how they were huge nerds because they had to know technical details about their mixers. You may not be fan of rap but his point was they needed precise knowledge of their craft in order to do what they did. The same is true for any art. Material science aside, the difference between engineers in the Roman Empire and those of today is math and physics knowledge. Imagine how different the world would be today if they knew then what we know now. What math and physics does is give a base to build on, bypassing huge amounts of trial-and-error. To be sure, there's plenty of trial-and-error experimentation to be had today but that's mostly just fine tuning. Similarly, with music or any other art, math and physics provide a good starting point from which to move (that old adage of knowing the rules before you break them). Yes, one can get along without that knowledge but at the price of low productivity. From Beethoven to the burgeoning artists of today, we would all benefit greatly if more people studied math and really physics.

[@Newstetter]

@johnsmithy3147 I have no problem with rap at all. As with any genre, I like the good stuff. Nor do I have a problem with anyone who wants to approach music "as" math. That's a choice. Many disciplines overlap in science and art. Math seems often to be treated as a religious concept by math lovers. Again ... no problem if that's your thing. It's not going to work for everyone and there's plenty of room for that. My dad was an aeronautical engineer and I was raised in a fairly science/math minded environment. I get the concepts but can't do the math much. My own passion has always been a balance of music and visual art, at some point music took center stage. Having barely squeaked through high school math in spite of the best efforts of my engineer dad and my older brother who majored in science and math and became a physicist, I can assure you that I've had plenty of exposure to the point of view you express. Again, I respect your POV ... but there's more than one right angle to this subject. (see what I did there?) I'm trying to find a happy medium (... mean? ... average? ...fulcrum?)

[@johnsmithy3147]

@@Newstetter Praise the puns. Learning math and physics is a lot of work, not unlike what it takes to learn music theory, and it's easy to confuse passion for religion. A lot of that I suspect is due to the realization that math and physics is foundational to everything we encounter in this world, whether we're talking engineering or art, so I balk at the notion that it has little bearing on music. We could get along fine without music theory but I doubt you would feel the same way about that as you do math. I understand your position and again, it would be cool to see you collaborate with a physicist who shares your passion and knowledge of music. I'm working on a few ideas of my own but due to my limited knowledge (undergrad physics major and 30 plus years hobbyist guitarist just recently getting serious about it) its slow going

[@Newstetter]

@johnsmithy3147 , Sorry if I gave you the impression that I think math and physics has "little bearing on music" ... so I balk as well ... I'm saying just the opposite. Simply that it's not clear to many people what's the difference between discussions of, say; the physics of the overtone series and simple counting of intervals. I'm trying to clarify that distinction. I certainly don't think there's any down side to understanding the principles of physics and math. It do think we need to be clear about where pure math and the science of music applies and when it's not relevant to the creative process. When music relates to emotions, undefinable feelings and intangible ideas which can barely be described verbally or mathematically, its time to come to terms with music as its own thing that functions based on its own logic, which is and isn't math ... it is and isn't physics. These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

[@philnewton3096]

What about music being about emotion? Pulse? Breathing? Walking ,running? Imagination? Can there be measured by using mathematical means?

[@Newstetter]

Great queations. What do you think?

[@pierheadjump]

⚓️ Thanks Mark 🎶

[@Newstetter]

Thank you!

[@philnewton3096]

Math? Muse?

[@intellectuallyhungry]

“It depends upon what the definition of ‘is’ is”.. 🤣 Show me your a Politician &/or Attorney w/o saying you’re a Politician/ Attorney.. (oh, Bill Clinton.. 🤣)