Is Paul Atreides a Villain?

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[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code SHIRE at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: incogni.com/shire

[@mattis8205]

I love your take on this. The Hero/villain/human/inhuman graphic is very Petersonesque. Have you read Maps of Meaning by some chance? Or The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell? Also you look absolutely beautiful in this vid (as usual really). I was just quite taken by you this time round for some reason.

[@BlameThande]

My favourite line in "Dune" is actually in the appendixes, where it talks about how Liet-Kynes was patiently preparing the Fremen for the long project of terraforming, "until the day his planet was afflicted by a Hero."

[@DayTripperrr]

What does that mean

[@bonzo7345]

Wish they would have included quite a few more lines from the book into the movies. This was said in the chapter where Liet dies to the pre-spice mass.

[@CosmicInsights290]

The "Hero" in this context refers to Paul, who arrives on Arrakis and becomes a pivotal figure in the planet’s destiny. The word "afflicted" suggests that while Paul’s arrival brings significant and transformative changes, it also introduces conflict and upheaval, which is evident in the Fremen Jihad. Plus, Paul’s coming impacts the planet of Arrakis by going through with the ecological transformation, and helps push it forward into motion. If that makes sense to you.

[@BlameThande]

@@CosmicInsights290 Indeed, or more briefly, simply the point that being led by a Hero is not necessarily a good thing for the man in the street (or in the sietch).

[@jamespfp]

I suspect the word is "Afflicted" because it suggests a Disease, and indeed, Fanaticism is entirely the problem for the Hero who is Lisan Al Gaib. Another fun fact: Fanaticism is most pernicious and dangerous in adolescent humans, something which Herbert takes advantage of with the characters of Paul, Leto II (and Ghanima), and then much, much later with Siona, Sheeana, and the ghola Duncan Idaho. Now, this is not to say that adults in middle age won't be fanatical; clearly, all the Bene Tlielax are fanatical. But the way to lay the fanatical pattern down so that it sticks for the rest of the life of the adherents is to convert them into fanatics before they become adults.

[@Safetysealed]

He was, to quote V, "Cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate."

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

#AlanMooreWasRight

[@timhenley3602]

Well said, sir!

[@acecondor289]

I find the best way to think of Dune is its what LotR would be like if Aragorn took the Ring fir himself to overthrow Sauron.

[@Raggmopp-xl7yf]

I've always maintained that Paul was neither hero or villain - he was a survivor. NONE of anything that happened would have happened if they'd just been left alone. The Emperor would have continued to fret, but he would have remained emperor. He could have even married his daughter off to Duke Leto (or Paul) and the "threat" would have been neutralized. Instead? He had to deal with a vengeful teenager who was mightily pissed his dad was murdered and had decided to "Tear it ALL Down!"

[@jankom.7783]

Emperor was afraid of rising power of house Atreides, and their increased antagonism towards him. But it's his actions that caused it. His move to consolidate the power among the nobility had upset the lower classes of people, who chose Paul as their leader for his knowledge of the power. I think that his fear was not that the power will corrupt him, but what happens after he consolidates all the power for himself and then leave it to others. Because after his move against the emperor, all the other houses will attack him. So he will have to take all their power as well. The problem, that he is solving is nobility abusing their privilege to oppress lower classes. He has to find a way to give more freedom to lower classes, that will not be easily reversible after he is gone

[@Raggmopp-xl7yf]

@@jankom.7783 As the Kwisatz Haderach Paul chose his actions to send humanity upon his "Golden Path," which was the only set of circumstances with the least amount of bloodshed in his visions of all possible futures. Those visions is why he chose to allow Chaney to die in childbirth instead of saving her. Had she lived her future would have been VERY grim. It's also why he sent out the Fremen to tear the Landsraad (Great Houses) apart. But it was his son, Leto II, that truly followed his Golden Path - something Paul couldn't force himself to do. You know, b/c losing your humanity by turning yourself into a giant sandworm for 5000 years of misery just for the sake of humanity is a big ask! lol

[@martianmr]

@@Raggmopp-xl7yf Paul did not see the Golden Path, he reveals this in his last conversation with Leto II.

[@shaynethechangingman322]

Exactly. Paul is a tragedy/cautionary tale.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

The problem is that when somone can *actually* see the future, and the least worst option is to create the lake of blood and wade through it... that's a whole lot of oof.

[@alananimus9145]

The problem people run into is they don't understand the least bad option doesn't mean a good option.

[@hans-christianbauer5947]

@@alananimus9145 Sometimes there are no morally good options as we understand them. The universe of Dune is filled with feuds and political infighting. Being peaceful or passive doesn't mean that your enemies are going to leave you alone. Especially when you have something that everybody wants.

[@alananimus9145]

@@hans-christianbauer5947 Oh I completely agree. The point I was making is that it's important not to mistake "the least bad option" for "the good option". There is a quote from one of my favorite book series "Sometimes it's not about doing the right thing, its about doing the correct thing." Dune is a story about how fascist leaders take power both by accident (in the case of Paul) and on purpose (in the case of Leto). It is a brilliant critique of "The Great Man" ideology.

[@user-wt2bk7gw3k]

What is truly good will only result in all that you love being taken and destroyed by people that don't care about good. Oh humans how I weep for us.

[@hans-christianbauer5947]

@@user-wt2bk7gw3k I would disagree. Being kind is often confused with being good, but "true good" sees the outcome/consequence of an action, not just the action itself. If a father who loves his child disciplines it harshly, does he do it out of malice? On the opposite side: anti-authoritarian parents who raise their children without restrictions or discipline as to not "taint their free spirit"...who is doing their child the greater favour? If constant kindness leads to destruction, is it truly good?

[@mickyodell]

As the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam once said, “There are no sides”

[@nenyeo6090]

Exactly

[@rikk319]

@@nenyeo6090 "All things are permissible" is the rallying cry of authoritarianism, something most of the factions, especially the Bene Gesserit, were, in the entire series.

[@AzaleaJane]

This might be my favorite line from Part 2

[@zeroreyortsed3624]

Dune is basically a greek tragedy, as far as the Atreides go. They realize they have to become the villains by everyone else's standards. In order to keep humanity from being destroyed.

[@Leitis_Fella]

The Atreides are inspired by House Atreus from Greek myth, which was always suffering from tragedy

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

This is how I’ve always thought of House Atreides. Perspective is everything.

[@AncientRights]

I think it is fair to call both of them a villain: Paul unwillingly and Leto II willingly. "History is written by the victors." Paul was unable and unwilling to guide humanity on the golden path so while his Jihad was successful he was not able to claim ultimate victory, letting the ruin left in his wake be left to others to deal with. Leto II firmly wanted humanity to emerge victorious and so he set himself against them, he became an anvil against which humanity would be forged. As outside readers we might be able to see his acts as heroic, but the winning side, the humanity Leto II wanted to flourish, could only consider him a villain.

[@charlesjohnson5791]

Exactly why the Bene Gesserit so dogmatically referred to him as the (capital-T) Tyrant. It's like the saying "your enemies make you stronger" taken to an extreme.

[@robspadre5519]

I didn’t understand Dune until I started watching this channel - best video essays on KZbin, hands down.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I'm so glad my videos have helped!!

[@Mike-Conza]

In the short term relatively both Paul and Leto II were some what a hero/villain. The long term Paul didn’t want the burden of the golden path for humanity Leto II embraced that he had to become a tyrant so the golden path for humanity was realised

[@jamespfp]

This is entirely how I understand the Crux of Dune's matter. Paul is self-aware of how horrible the Golden Path future will be but is powerless to change anything lest all of humanity depart from the Path. Leto II serves an important thematic purpose because he does embrace his villainy to some extent but he also preserves and even redeems from time to time, including his own father Paul and his grandfather, too, and the whole of the Bene Gesserit order. The Tyrant is what the Bene Gesserit call him. Leto II calls himself a predator, but knows that the worst thing he's done was to bottle humanity up until finally the pressure from enforced tranquility scattered the species like the seeds from a dandelion. Another interesting feature of Leto II: He might be the Tyrant, but he's also the biggest supporter of his own counter-revolution. In other words, he's been intentionally breeding the Atreides by favoring the rebellious so that all serious opposition remains more or less controlled. It's a funny kind of villain that values the strongest possible competition, choosing to persuade and convert it rather than outright destroy it.

[@vokkera6995]

I think the point of dune is that it’s bigger than a hero or a villain- it’s about societal struggles and systems of power. The people are just… people. Even if they exist outside the scopes that we know today.

[@Captain_Insano_nomercy]

This 👏 I talk often about the systems of power and how they pushed the events along, I mean it isn't like Paul just woke up one day and said he wanted to be a dictator. The oppressive order will always demonize the chaotic revolution, and rightly so, but neither are "good"; simply two sides of a coin and where you stand determines how you view either

[@atrution]

Doctor Yueh's choice is better represented with the 'prisoner's dilemma" than the "trolley problem", especially with the justification you provide.

[@Best_Stressed]

I don’t think that’s right. The essence of the prisoner’s dilemma is that 1) two (or more) actors are presented with the choice to do a “good” cooperative thing or a “bad” selfish thing; 2) collectively, they would both be better off if neither did the selfish thing than if both did the selfish thing; but 3) individually, there is always an incentive to do the selfish thing whether or not they expect the other actor(s) to be cooperative or selfish. I can see how Yueh’s situation could fulfill two of these conditions, depending on how you frame it, but I don’t think it fulfills all three at once.

[@atrution]

@@Best_Stressed As you present them, 1) "Good" maintain loyalty or "Bad" give in to blackmail 2) Not having their house fall, and collectively die off, is definitely favorable for the group 3)Blackmail, which Yueh reason's they could do with any number of members.

[@mndrew1]

It's almost like Herbert thought it possible that overthrowing a corrupt monarchy might lead to a Cromwellian pogrom or a reign of terror. :)

[@obadijahparks]

I feel like Paul is more of a tragic, what could have been, character rather than the villain sort.

[@MartinMCade]

I also see the same with Feyd - there's a comment in the novel where someone wonders what Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen could have become if he had been raised with the Atreides sense of honor. I see Dune as a wide-ranging story that covers many characters of different moral status, but all of them have to live out their lives among the background of a corrupt, feudal galactic empire, with many deeply-embedded manipulative power centers, so nobody gets to have a straight heroic story. Now many of the Harkonnens, though, are straight-up evil.

[@Dr._Nicholi_Rasmuson]

Exactly. Paul is not a villain. His powers of the mind aren't even the problem. He unleashed a beast w/ the Fremen, which are what caused the holy war. If anything, the Paul is a victim of the Bene Gesserit's insane schemes, of the religion and culture they groomed on Arrakis. He didn't make the Fremen, the Bene' did. They then maneuvered him into a position where he basically had to unleash them. He's not omnipotent, but he can read a lot of the future. The Bene Gesserit crafted their plan around just such a figure, which included toppling actual villains, the Harknonens and then the evil Emperor. Herbert went through great lengths to outline how evil these people were, how hungry for power, willing to eat up major families...etc. It's said in the books and the movie, "I see a way, one way...." That's the only way that Paul could go, that's the cost of taking Arraakis and saving his mother and soon to be sister. Better that Paul take the reins of that than Feyd Ratha. He did it very reluctantly when he finally gave in. "But he killed so many people" No. His fremen did, ostensibly at his order, but the books don't detail any of that. He accepts the burden, but the books do touch on how he tries to keep the Fremen in line, iirc, it's just impossible, so Paul focuses on mitigation. Reluctant hero winds up sacrificing his agency, and even takes responsibility, even though it's not totally his, and he tortures himself over all of it, even though it was really the only way to avoid much worse. Those are heroic traits. The books are pretty clear on most of this. Paul doesn't see himself as a hero, no, most iconic heroes don't, they don't get that ego. He accepts blame, another heroic trait. He didn't set out to do any of this, he set out to end tyranny, and once he started on that path, it snowballed because it was organized or "destined" to, thanks to the Bene Gesserit. He's not a tyrant, he isn't doing it to have power, he never wanted it for the power. He's doing it to try to stave off worse things, that's his whole character arc. It's sort of like the trolley problem writ large across a universe. Paul chose to make the train take the track with one person on it, and it tears him up inside, even though he saved five. Fayed would have gleefully made those five die just for the lulz if he could have, the Bene Gesserit might have been able to somewhat control him more directly than Paul, but the result would have been worse than Paul regardless because they can't actually fix insane, they are insane themselves. Paul wasn't a villain, Jess has just doesn't have perspective because of the large numbers(in comparison to real Earth history) were overwhelming.

[@aletheuo475]

I see much of the Greek tragedy in Dune. The 'heroes' are tragic heroes who fall, not so much because of innate wickedness, but because fatal circumstances close in around them, bringing to the light of day their worst flaws which would otherwise have done little harm.

[@danielriley7380]

Paul could probably be considered an antihero.

[@aemeth5418]

I think Herbert made it clear when he inserted a dialogue in the books in which Paul himself openly admits that "he is much worse than Hitler."

[@ThatKenpoGuy]

Unrelated to the excellent video but the Hobbit hole in four seasons paintings in the background are lovely!

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you! They were a gift from my sister

[@ThatKenpoGuy]

@@Jess_of_the_Shire That's awesome! She did some excellent work!

[@narrator69]

There is a problem with the Trolley Problem. No one ever picks the third possible option, or even realizes it exists as far as I can tell. Just jam the switch halfway and derail the trolley. P.S. I love the new look for your hair.

[@nottheguru]

What about the emergency break on the trolley itself?

[@narrator69]

@@nottheguru The problem is classically phrased as that the brake is not working, hence the "runaway" trolley.

[@StrangeAesir]

“Explorers in the further regions of experience. Daemons to some; Angels to others”

[@chrissmith7091]

Leto his wormself said, "they will call me Shaitan" while some call him Shai hulud; so he is both the devil and god, villain and hero. It depends on your understanding and perspective. This is how Moneo went from believing Leto was the villain to believing he was THE hero.

[@jamesnoe7378]

Blame Jessica, she was supposed to have a girl .. 😂😂😂

[@chadmueller6128]

And when she did that daughter was arguably MORE dangerous than Paul was. It is possible (however unlikely) to have controlled Paul. His sister was fully aware AT BIRTH.

[@MrAranton]

@@chadmueller6128had Paul been born a Paula, she would not have been exposed to the water of life while in the womb - which is why Alia was born fully aware.

[@nicokrasnow1851]

​@@chadmueller6128 yeah, but that was because Jessica did the Spice Agony while pregnant

[@ashtonndlovu9470]

​@@chadmueller6128that's 15 years after the actual daughter was supposed to be born Also they were never going to be attacked if they unified through marriage with the Barons side Yeah Jessica messed up even Paul said so 😂

[@PeloquinDavid]

Superb overview. Dune is nothing if not a modern Greek tragedy and the "Golden Path" is such a bitterly ironic term. As you may know, Frank Herbert drew the very name "Atreides" from Greek myth: the "House of Atreus" is the English version of that Greek term and refers to multiple generations of a family that suffers under a multi-generational "curse of the gods". The "original" adaptation(s) of those myths were done by the playwrights of Classical Greek theatre. Many from the Atreides line got tragedies written about them that have survived from Classical times. The ancient Greeks knew full well that there were many ways to be a "chosen one" and the very morally ambiguous nature of their gods meant this was typically a very dangerous business. Dune picks up a lot of these themes - albeit within a godless universe. I can only hope that Villeneuve's series of films at least makes it to the end of Paul's story arc (i.e. at the end of "Children of Dune") and his ultimate tragedy - that Paul's "feet of clay" condemned his own son to sacrifice HIS humanity and to be cursed by humanity for all time.

[@GlenLake]

Paul saw himself as the villain for a while and then just saw himself as inevitable.

[@thorinbane]

Love the hair and the content. Nice to see another great franchise getting some love.

[@Anymal104]

Another Jess upload!!! \o/ your hair and makeup look so magical this time :3 It's always great watching your videos, I love your choice of words and stuffs when dissecting the stories you talk about :3

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much!

[@josephraffurty9293]

I’m enjoying these dune focused videos. I just started reading Heretics of Dune a week ago. Looking forward to picking up the reading pace later this week. Looking forward to more dune focused videos as well.

[@davidalbee5039]

I needed this video today!

[@obadijahparks]

I need the second movie on 4k at home.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I've been in a Dune mood lately!

[@Stamboul]

I like to think of the first 2 books as one massive gom jabbar that Paul fails. In the end, he couldn't do what objectively needed to be done and fled from the pain.

[@OldManSparkplug]

You have mastered the sponsor segue. Well done :)

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Haha thanks so much!

[@mattyladd]

Amazing video as always. You are amazing.

[@Morosoph_deLore]

I really enjoy your English/Philosophy professor "food for thought" discussions on this and other stories that you critique. I also enjoy how you change your "eye candy" appearance on your Dune and LOTR videos. Best regards always!

[@lonlaz]

Oh, look, a new Jess vid. Thanks Rogue!

[@madolite]

I'd say Dune illustrates well the Nietzschean idea of becoming the monster that you were trying to slay all along. And in trying to "save everyone", you risk ending up saving no-one. Paul is trying so hard to "fix the world" when he should be focusing on "fixing himself". But it's not just about him. It's also about society enabling his rise and downfall, where in fact he's in most ways "just another human" like the rest of us. Society is in some ways just as much the villain, because it shaped him into who he is.

[@michaelaradas1343]

My fave Dune bit was always the Littany against Fear, especially the fear is the mind-killer line. I also remember a parody of Dune in which the chapter intros said things like "Incoherent Ramblings of the Princess Irulan." Took me a bit to get used to your channel, but I really enjoy it now. Thank you

[@michaelalderman6815]

I read Dune when I was in high school. It’s a good example of the maxim that the golden age of science fiction is 15.

[@itzakehrenberg3449]

You are just too mature for 'Dune' now, eh? That's for sharing, Big Boy.

[@MarkyShaw]

Good day and Happy Friday, Jess and fans!

[@StoriesThatSuck-pw1vi]

I'm digging both of the movies. Beautifully shot and a story compellingly told. It's been decades since I've read the firs three books but it feels *right* to me so far -- while there are some differences between the books and the movies, I can understand why that is. Anyways, I really enjoyed this video, as I usually do with your content. Good work!

[@rebbeccahoneycutt7941]

Full Hobbit and devout Arrakeen, this was beautiful. I love both Paul and Leto II (though technically he was III, read the books and you will understand....) But still, wonderful video. Happy to be one of your (many) subscribers!

[@vendettarules1]

Got the hair on point today Jess!

[@The7Portals]

Good stuff. You have an amazing channel I love it.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much! I'm so glad you're enjoying my channel!

[@michaelwellen2866]

Paul is not a hero or a villain, he's a smart guy swept along by fate. Albeit one who never ends up in a cubicle.

[@ronaldmccomb8301]

I liken Paul to Magneto. Great video as always, Miss Jess. And I like your hair. It goes with the whole image you project. Please continue to dive into other non-Tolkien subjects.

[@hannahk.5500]

First off, Jess, thank you for finally putting this perspective into words. I've watched tens of hours of Dune videos in the last couple weeks (just went to see 2une two days ago, right before it left theaters) and was still trying to find someone who could put all these ideas into words that made more sense to me-I felt like I was trying to fit a square peg into a square hole but couldn't figure out the right angle, and this video got me closer. This video also just sent me into a multi-hour long discussion with a friend who's a long-time DUNE fan, and who's been there to talk to as I've been trying to understand it all. I actually watched this video twice-through before deciding how I felt about it! Ultimately, I'm with you through the Herbert quote warning against hero-worship. That all makes sense to me. Shifting into the part of the video where suddenly the goal is to be sympathetic or understanding of space-genociders was where I kept getting caught and not really being able to keep up. I was trying to figure out how your hero/villain, human/inhuman framework could reflect the real world, and was having a real tough time applying it to real, awful, people. After some back-and-forth with my friend about whether or not that part of DUNE is even supposed to be applicable to the real world-to which I respond, if it's not, what's the point-we, kind-of like you, landed on it all ultimately being a thought-experiment, not unlike the trolley problem. I'm still not super satisfied by this, and I'm still not sure I fully understand why people like this story so much (the movies, I get the hype for), but I'm still enjoying trying to understand, and I'm really grateful for the videos you've been doing on DUNE. Definitely gonna keep sharing them with my friends who are into DUNE and not LotR, and maybe eventually we can nudge them into Middle-earth too. 😁

[@ToddCarter]

Hey. I really like your Dune videos. Since you want to talk about the movies more, could you make one talking about the changes to Chani’s character in the film? I really like many of the changes the film makes to the books. But I have trouble wrapping my head around that one and what it adds to the story. In the book, she is completely and totally devoted to Paul and in the movie she is the lone Freeman voice against his ascendancy. Thanks for the videos.

[@fredkrissman6527]

Fantastic discussion/analysis, as usual, Jess! 👏 You can talk to us as much as you like about Dune&Dune2... I saw both when they first came to theaters @ 1/2 dzn times, and watch Dune-related content at least once a wk, so you won't bore me!!!

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I would love to do a deep dive on the films eventually. They're such a masterclass in adaptation

[@delphithefantastichealer2]

I can’t imagine to put myself in Paul’s shoes. It feels like his free will has been taken away by forces far greater than himself. He had all of the potential paths of life right in front of his face, being able to see down every path as clear as day. It’s almost as if instead of authoring his own life, he’s just filling in the pages with a story that he had no choice but to copy down instead of pen himself. I’m so conflicted so much on whether or not to pity him because of his wrongdoings, but at the very least I pity that such a situation was thrust upon him. Loved the vid!

[@L2p2]

I love your hero villain human non human circular chart the most ! Is it your original idea ? I have not heard of anyone describing in that way.

[@williampalmer8052]

Another good one! Your work in elucidating Dune's often-ponderous themes is quite heroic... Or should I say villainous? I'm not so sure now...

[@timothybilotta8090]

Please do a deep dive on Jessica, Chani, Irulan, Alia! The strong and resilient women of Dune. Loving the look today!

[@nenyeo6090]

Absolutely! Will love a video like this.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Absolutely. Their cycles of abuse are one of the things that really got me to love Dune. It'll be out around the same time as the new show this december!

[@5PctJuice]

Okay, agree with basically everything you said about Pail, he's an incredibly complex and tragic character, but Dune 2 thoughts! I saw it late in its theater run and it was absolutely transcendent. Taken together with part 1, this is a genuine masterpiece of scifi and I can't stop thinking about it.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

These movies have really set the standard for modern sci-fi films

[@emadSciFi]

First off, great video! Although I still don;t like the word deconstruct. have you read 'Grendel' by the way?

[@zinhoferraz13]

Great video!

[@djparn007]

Thank you, Jess. ❤❤

[@laraava]

I like your hair! It would be extra cool if it grayed naturally like that.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

It probably will! I have my mother's hair and she has a lovely gray streak. I'm pretty much just copying her haha

[@richarddeese1087]

A very good analysis. I say that as one who's read all 6 books dozens of times over. Always something new to learn! tavi.

[@baneblade__]

Please continue making these dune videos, they're very good

[@seajaytea9340]

Thank you. Your comments were excellent, as was your analysis. I have been a long time fan of the series. To me, Herbert was writing in response to Machiavelli. Be careful of giving power (& instruction) to any one person as they will distort humanity.

[@KalNertea]

Thank you, this was very interesting take on Dune philosophy... And philosophy general

[@nWoPaullywood]

What do you think of the Prospects or the Potential for AI to be used to animate the Silmarillion

[@user-jw7cq6gu6o]

Excellent presentation. Seeing the relationship of the human being, a potential hero or villain, as a spectrum diagram is a brilliant idea.

[@hectorcat]

This Jess girl is amazing ❤

[@eric_intotheunknown]

Fantastic video! I think you really nailed the complexity of Paul & Leto's stories. To varying degrees they followed the path the 'flow of the universe' laid out for them. Which isn't heroic or villainous. But Paul's choice at the end was very human.

[@bobsteele9581]

To summarise this entire 27 min plus video - Heroes or villains? It's complicated! 😂. Seriously though another great vid Jess. 👍

[@jasonbates2687]

I click on your videos because you are attractive and you voice is soothing. I don't really hear what you say until I turn my head back to my video game. Then I am not distracted by your physical beauty and instead I am attentive to your words. You speak well and with depth.

[@jyamesLccas]

An aside… i Am absolutely loving your aesthetic!

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

Thank you so much!

[@ozymandiascakehole3586]

Can someone please show me where this rumor came from that frank wrote messiah as a sort of "i'll show them" or reaction to public reaction, i've heard a lot of people say it but I've also seen from franks interviews and brian herberts commentary that this is not really true and I can't find sources where he said this apart from hearsay.

[@jasonrosa5268]

Holy crap!!!! I ❤️💕❤️your take on Paul!!!! I actually saw him as a good guy, but I’m just a common reader! U r way smarter than me!

[@aemeth5418]

That's why Herbert wrote another book in which he made things pretty clear, because too many people understood Paul's character wrongly.

[@jasonrosa5268]

Never thought of it that way!

[@jangschoen1019]

These videos really help me parse out the books. Still trying to make sense of Dune Messiah's fallen moon, though.

[@VilmaSantos-pd5hl]

Hi. I discovered Dune by watching the first trailer of the movie and one of my favorite actress was in it. The story of Dune is super interested and when I saw the trailer, I got interested and I began to watch videos of people discussing the book series. It also allows people to share their opinion based on the books and the movies. I like how in the videos you explain what the story is about and break it down with more details. I was wondering if you could do a video based on Chani from the books and Denis version of Chani in the movies? What do you think of both Chani's? From what I know Denis made some alterations to Chani in the film, so the audience can follow and see that Paul's decisions at the end isn't a good decision. Based from the videos and your video I've seen people talk about Dune, Frank had to write Messiah to tell the audience that Paul wasn't a hero. Can you make a video based on Alia from the books and the bit snippet we got from Dune part 2? What do you think of Alia from the book? A video based on book Princess Irulan and movie Irulan? Do you have any theory as a fan of books and the movies on how you think or imagine Messiah is going to be adapted based on the changes Denis made with Chani, Alia and princess Irulan? Do you think we will see a presentation of Paul conflicted feelings in Messiah, since Chani isn't at Paul side, etc? How do you think Messiah is going to end? Have a wonderful day.

[@billyalarie929]

I would love to know if you have any thoughts on this: Christopher Ruocchio has said that Frank Herbert did not actually succeed in making his point in the first book, thereby creating that need in the first place FOR the second book. Do you think that’s the case, or far more likely that people just didn’t really care to look deeper into that first book to find it? Basically: was the evidence there from the start?

[@pyroromancer]

Green top got the Rouge look going on zjess

[@billberndtson]

I'm sure Caladan has a shire. ❤ I love your hair.

[@CosmicPhilosopher]

I think it's also important to look at how much of Paul's path was forced on him. The Bene Gesserit were planning and plotting for centuries in their plan to create the Kwisatz Haderach. How much of a choice did Paul truly have on how his life would play out?

[@FreviriousQuigby]

Jess, I'm curious if you've read the Ender's Game anthology, because there are similarities that i'm seeing between Ender and Paul

[@yogoltime]

Thank you

[@donfabian1542]

I personally find it very satisfying, that the question in this video cannot be answered so easily. In the end, humans are complex beings capable of demonstrating even more complex behaviours. Reducing this to two extremes (hero / villain) does often not honour that complexity. Most often taking a deep dive into the question why someone did something (the motive or motives) is much more rewarding. I think Frank Herbert is a master in portraiting this. Stereotype characters which can clearly be attributed to either villain or hero honestly bore me. I am glad that there are stories which offer so much more depth in character development.

[@extofer]

Beautifully said.

[@pluto_is_still_a_planet]

He started as a hero, and could have died a hero; instead, he lived long enough to see himself become a villain.

[@doomdrake123]

And yet if he had died a hero, many more people would've died.

[@missanne2908]

Fun fact: John W. Campbell wrote the novella 'Who Goes There?,' upon which is based the 1982 film _The Thing._ You're right regarding Campbell: McReady in the novella is much more the upright superhero than Kurt Russell's R. J. MacReady. Definitely worth the read.

[@stevewatt4819]

never got into Dune, I read the first book, plodding through it and it just never flipped my interest. However, I enjoy the trips down the rabbithole into your mind as you discuss something so important to you. Keep up the great work!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

Quinn's Ideas has done numerous videos breaking down and analyzing Dune if you're at all interested.

[@stevewatt4819]

I also liked you putting the villains stage left!

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@stevewatt4819 In regards to the Hero vs. Villain graph and what it resembles, Horseshoe Theory is an idea in political science that asserts that the far-right is more similar to the far-left than to the center-right and vice versa, and is often used as argument for centrism. Several scholars have dismissed the theory as an oversimplification and generalization that ignores their fundamental differences, and have questioned the theory's general premises, citing significative differences of the left and right on the political spectrum and governance.

[@stevewatt4819]

@@sebastianevangelista4921 you're not a theatre person, are you? My comment has nothing to do with politics but back in the day when they were doing morality plays to exit stage left was to go to Hell. The villains always exited stage left. To this day it's still considered where the bad folks go.

[@sebastianevangelista4921]

@@stevewatt4819 Oh okay my bad please forgive me. I'm a Political Science major and jumped to conclusions. Yes that is a really cool tidbit.

[@tarvoc746]

Regarding the Trolley problem analogy, I do have to ask: Given what the Harkonnen are like, what's your take on why Yue could ever come to the conclusion that they would actually stay true to their word when it comes to leaving him and his wife alive?

[@mregskwach6037]

Green for mourning is the perfect touch for this video.

[@allisongliot]

I like your way of understanding human vs. inhuman and that both heroes and villains are closer to the inhuman side in different senses. Not sure I agree with Leto about mystiques though…

[@jonprudhomme7694]

Well, this series is encouraging me to reread the rest of the Dune. Read the first many times, but only the full set once.

[@Jess_of_the_Shire]

I'm so glad! I hope you enjoy if you do give it a go!

[@lidu6363]

"Any one person who can answer the trolley problem objectively stops being human." I love it!!!

[@christophersessions3375]

What I like about your analysis is it applies to a kind of tour of modern fantastic literature. You can walk directly from pulp heroes to Tolkien heroes to Moorcock anti-heroes to Herbert inhuman god-heroes to Lovecraftian inhuman gods using the idea that a heroes and villains keep moving further from real humanity. You start with wish fulfillment and end up at cosmic horror, all without ever leaving your reading nook.

[@ozymandiascakehole3586]

never thought a question mark could be a hairstyle.. but looks pretty good

[@jacobnavarro3675]

Your hair is neat. ^^

[@forelithe3517]

Have you read Chapter House?

[@Marsyas01]

The thought that haunts me when I think of Leto 2 and his Golden Path is... what if he was wrong? How do we know he wasn't? Like, yes, he wanted a humanity that he couldn't predict, that was beyond the reach of prescience; he wanted a humanity that was safe from *him*, and that at least was achieved, but what if it didn't need to happen that way? What if he subjected humanity to millennia of suffering and oppression and tyranny *and he was wrong*, and beyond the path and beyond his vision just waits more of the same, or perhaps a long, slow, eventual extinction.

[@user-cx7kg6ok9b]

Going for the Susan Sto-Helit look? It suits you.

[@7sunfire7]

I think Leto II is a hero, at least in the end. His life characterizes taking “the ends justify the means” to an extreme, and since part of the means were so horrific to him personally, overall, he truly does become a superhuman hero. Paul was completely human. He even derived his own existential philosophy, which truly was a sublime and profound series of revelations about inner humanity. He had to become all of this in order to survive, and once he had, he found that to destroy this hard-fought self definition was beyond him. He took only his humanity with him into the desert.

[@juliogrijalva75]

I’d say prescience is a superpower

[@godofacorns]

I would have clicked immediately if you'd added Leto II to the title. Love me some GEoD.

[@jamesomeara2329]

I don't recall the context, but wasn't there something that Herbert said the Dune story was a warning against charismatic or messianic leaders? A problem, whether hero or villain, is that Paul and Leto both descend into authoritarian leadership. As an individual yields to authority they cease to function as a voice for sny reason, and become a tool of the leaders vision. We lose our own humanity it would serm to serve that messianic leader, even if there does seem to be something justified in his or her thinking.

[@alexkats30]

I see you went Rogue with the look today 😏

[@dreiraven3rvn457]

after the first 4 Dune books, I always viewed Duncan Idaho, and his myriad clones, as the closest thing to a hero that the Dune saga had, as well as the "everyman" in galaxy that has largely overwhelmed the autonomy of the "average man". Just my take.

[@AmyThePuddytat]

He's Samwise Gamgee. 😂

[@darkenergystarchild4301]

Idigs the futuristic element of appreciation for Humanity due to previous calamity. Which fits the background as human civilization for the storyline.

[@straightshowtunelove]

There is a parody of Dune that was done by The National Lampoon that I think you will love. In it, Paul is the "Kumkwat Haagendaaz" Or he who can cook a meal and have all of the food ready at the same time. LOL.

[@user-nw7gn4vk9o]

You look Galadriel after she took the ring.