Is Sam Whitelock the greatest second-row in history? | Rugby After Hours

Sam Whitelock became the All Black's all-time appearance holder during his country's Pool A match against Italy at Rugby World Cup 2023. In this episode of After Hours, Johnnie Beattie (Scotland) is joined by Brits Schalk (South Africa), Justin Marshall (New Zealand) and Henry Speight (Australia) to review matchweek four of RWC 2023. They give their hot-takes and debate who is the greatest second-row of all-time.
#Rugby #RugbyWorldCup #RWC2023 #NewZealand #SouthAfrica
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[@chrisalheit3205]

Rugby must be unique in the international brotherhood it creates. Love these shows

[@wot4922]

Schalla's popular. Yesterday with Andrew Mehrtens and crew, today with Justin Marshall and this lot and earlier with Jean de Viliiers with the SA version. Nice 💚💛🇿🇦

[@Patrick8804]

Top 10 best ever locks 1/ Colin Meads 2/ Frik du Preez 3/ Willie John McBride 4/ John Eales 5/ Martin Johnson 6/ Victor Matfield 7/ Eben Etzebeth 8/ Alun Wyn Jones 9/ Sam Whitelock 10/ Brodie Retallick

[@ShamwariYako]

Schalk Britz looking like a retired jewel thief ❤

[@dominicm255]

With a 4 word vocabulary

[@victordastile5204]

​@@dominicm255he's Afrikaans speaking. Wonder if you'd even be able to read Afrikaans phrases.

[@tommcg7564]

On top of 150 tests, he’s in a special club of players who won the cup twice like the great John Eales, Tim Horan, Os Du Randt etc. Then you look at longevity, win percentage, character etc. Others will say John Eales, Martin Johnson, Victor Matfield, Paul O’Connell that’s fine, however the stats tell you he’s one of the greatest to ever play

[@tommcg7564]

And has the chance to add a third RWC what a legend!

[@user-zy5eb1sc5q]

AWJ worthy of a mention

[@tommcg7564]

@@user-zy5eb1sc5qwho’s that?

[@nzfreeski]

Botha, Matfield, Retallic & Whitelock - all in my squad

[@Tom_McMurtry]

With Mattfield and Whitelock on the line outs would be in penetrable

[@hailee2005]

No love for Eales?

[@nzfreeski]

@@hailee2005 plus Eales 😄

[@chrismouton1985]

Great show, lads! Loving the chat! Poor Henry was a bit outshined, though!

[@shanowilliams9851]

hes the smartest player ive seen play lock........very very smart player..underrated to the max..legend forever

[@LionOnSea]

Antoine Dupont is not 24 - he's turning 27 by the way. Agree with the sentiment though, he'll surely play in the QF all considered.

[@bbarxx]

I don't have the stats but off the cuff and as a AB fan, I immediately think of Victor Matfield as the No1 2nd rower

[@IwasInThe60s]

There are also Frik du Preez and Colin Meads (Pinetree) to consider. For me it is Victor Matfield.

[@pita3908]

These guys are having way too much fun!!

[@granitesoldier7704]

Top 10 for sure. Up there with Meads, Eales and Matfield.

[@joedennehy386]

I agree, and retallick, johnson, Botha, Willie John McBride, Mark Andrews

[@user-kj8lq7mo2s]

Frik du preez

[@user-zy5eb1sc5q]

Plus AWJ

[@leroythompson1084]

Justin Marshall is as good off the pitch as he was on it. Sensational.

[@VKM33]

Mentally weak player and never won a rwc and I’m an Abs fan. But he’s a ballsy analyst and passionate commentator, so to the contrary I reckon he’s been better off than on field.

[@dantakeoff]

Oof @@VKM33

[@Bokgat]

Absolutely. That crappy sky breakdown is going to crumble without Jeff Wilson not having a punching bag. SA has him now.

[@stephenpeteranderson]

As a saffa I have huge respect for Marshall such a legend of the game.

[@mfp4136]

Didn’t they do Ka Mate against Italy to honour Monte Casino?

[@MrAhuapai]

Winners medals are easy to quantify. Attributes will always be subjective. One thing that we do know about Samuel Whitelock's career up unto now , he has had far more than his fair share of winning at the elite end of professional rugby. For Canterbury, the Crusaders and the All Blacks he has been in dominant ,highly successful sides at all 3 levels for a long time.. It certainly isn't a coincidence.

[@andrewgodwin460]

As an individual lock and not a pairing. John Eals and thats from a saffa

[@seano4214]

Great show. You can see Justin plays Buffalo drink in left hand. Whitelock top 10 not sure the greatest as there are a few that I feel pip him there.

[@MayMcCann]

He's in the argument for sure. 2014/2015 Whitelock is a different animal than the rest of his career. In my opinion Retallick is better, Etzebeth is certainly better, Matfield was better, AWJ arguably better, POC arguably better. Will Skelton has played at a higher level for 4 years now. I think James Ryan is better if he hangs around long enough. Itoje is better if he regains his form and maintains it. RG Snyman will be better if he gets a good long run. It's all subjective really. Before you come at me, look up the meaning of 'arguably' and 'subjective' :D

[@MrAhuapai]

Will Skelton plays in a team better than Crusaders ? Its always difficult to say which player is better . The key point is that Sam Whitelock clocked up record appearances in the most successful rugby team of all time . ABs in the 2010s. Whitelock playing for the ABs and the Crusaders has been incredibly successful in his career and has enjoyed a win ratio that the other locks could only be envious of.

[@joedennehy386]

POC. Skelton , and Awj, don't belong in that company, tests, trophies, and rwc victories

[@oliverleigh9854]

He won countless trophies, 2 RWC, How many Rugby Champs/Tri Nations. Super Rugby Titles. If you consider greatest. Accolades are most important rather than players ability. Shows you what mental toughness you have.

[@MayMcCann]

@@oliverleigh9854 That would be 'most decorated 2nd row'. I wouldn't argue about that. But i believe we were talking about his ability. He is no longer the force he was. Understandably. I did say before that 2014/2015 Whitelock is a different animal. Maybe for 2 to 3 years the best lock in the world. Maybe in any other given year he might have edged it. I just think there are a lot of guys out there that have a good claim on it ability wise. There are very few people who are clearly the best e.g Carter, McCaw, Dupont.

[@oliverleigh9854]

@@MayMcCann Dupont? you serious he isn't even better than Aaron Smith as a Half Back. And about Whitelock, Abilities wise he isn't, but in sport ability means jack if you don't have the mental prowess. the history of sport in general tells us that.

[@SuperEdge67]

Whitelock’s a great player but there’s been so many great locks. Colin Meads will always be number one.

[@oliverleigh9854]

He won countless trophies, 2 RWC, How many Rugby Champs/Tri Nations. Super Rugby Titles. If you consider greatest. Accolades are most important rather than players ability. Shows you what mental toughness you have.

[@VKM33]

Colin was good but played in an amateur era where players often worked during the week. Nowadays rugby’s a full time gig, with faster, fitter, stronger players. Not sure if pinetree would’ve been as dominant in the professional era.

[@MrT67]

​@@VKM33Yeah, but in each era everyone is on an even playing field. If Meads played in this era, he'd have the advanced training, etc. One thing is for sure, he would love the mobile modern game as that's the way he played.

[@peyro51]

Pretty sure the ABs did the Kamate against Italy

[@GimliNZ]

That is correct! It was the first time this year, so not sure JM even watched the game!

[@duncangravy6060]

Kapa was first used in 2005 vs South Africa in NZ......

[@scubaben35455]

I would like to see an annual series with Japan, Fiji, Tonga and Samoa… like the six nations and rugby championship. And a tier two world cup in between the rugby world cup. It will lift the game globally to another level.

[@hlangaful]

There is...the Pacific Nations Cup

[@decekfrokfr3mdx]

Lol it already exists

[@hailee2005]

Yes! Lets call it the Pacific Nations Cup...

[@wattytipene1333]

Add Portugal please

[@craigscoinpurse]

Schalla is legit the man! Him and Justin would have a good night out i bet!

[@schneidervonhammer722]

Justin Marshall spitting facts about the ALL BLACKs, The Ireland 1/4 may be a rude awakening for Fozzie and Co. Then again - you never write off any All BLACKS side, do so at your peril.

[@2011hwalker]

Remember the ABs beat them in the first test in '22....Ireland lack the out and out pace of the ABs at 10, 8, 13

[@greenplasticgun]

The ABs have had their wakeup call. France and South Africa gave it to them quite recently. I think they'll be well up for Ireland if it happens.

[@MrT67]

That's a bet each way if ever.....

[@alentojudge3771]

The audio is trailing behind the video.

[@RikiLouw69]

Du Pont turns 27 next month. Where do you get that he is 24?

[@greggquixley8651]

Great insights as always

[@JasonAndrew]

Can he convert a penalty 5 meters in from the sideline, in extra time to win a Bledisloe Cup?

[@timgregory82]

Kiwi here who was also a lock who took conversions. Cannot help but respect John's kicking

[@mvubu6823]

I would agree. I'd go further and say Rettalick and Whitelock are the best lock combo in history. Their winning record vs Matfield and Bakkies proves it. Kieran Read should be on the list for greatest ever 8 but can't seem to get the recognition he deserves. And I'm no Kiwi fan

[@ToheMangaMan]

Sam Whitelock has 2 World Cup Winners medals, that has to tick at least one box.....Kieren Read tainted his legacy by playing while injured which was a major contributor in the 2019 semi final loss to England....Richie McCaw did the same in 2011, but fortunately for him and the rest of New Zealand, we won.

[@mvubu6823]

@@ToheMangaMan Read is one of the smartest players I have ever seen. Cannot work out why he isn't recognized. And yes, better than Zinzan.

[@ToheMangaMan]

@@mvubu6823He maybe the smartest, but he was selfish to put himself ahead of the team and it came at a cost. Zinzan Brooke has been called "50 cents"....It takes 2 to make a Buck, LOL. His offensive "defense" and his memorable skills level, ie, drop kicking from half-way, would put him on a par with Kieran Read in my opinion.

[@stuarth43]

headline, are you serious there are 30 a head and shoulders above him, begin with Martin Johnson, Eels Victor Matfield, Whitelock is a great old plodder, evergreen

[@raf4992]

Johnston was the ultimate Plodder🤯 Over rated... Eales wasn't as hard as Matfeild or Whitelock...

[@manusduminy9845]

The best I've seen is John Eales.

[@joedennehy386]

As a kiwi eales was as good as anyone.

[@barneyboy2008]

What ozzie wouldn't give for a player of his caliber now.

[@Wolf-hh4rv]

Good skilful but I but I rate physical locks like Bakkies and Eben

[@jameskos9743]

Great to hear those who played as opposed to pure Pundits !

[@WoWMaster375]

I would say Matfield and Retallick are both better, but his career and longetivity can put Whitelock on a top 5 - top 10 list for sure

[@stevesmith1923]

I still can't understand why Cane is captain when a true leader Whitelock isn't considered. He is the obvious choice with Richie mana for all to see.

[@megahose]

Not sure what Speight was doing there. His contributions were minimal and Beattie hardly ever asked his opinion.

[@GreetTheSacredCow]

Cannae believe Marshy still frosts his tips. Legend.

[@timgregory82]

Hahaha

[@garethrichmond4388]

Wales supporter here. The Ireland v SA again was outstanding instant classic. Watching the ABs run in tries against in Italian that gave up 20 minutes in and stopped trying to tackle (shameful display) was boring

[@jameswyatt4443]

Etzebeth is the greatest, Retallick second.

[@wezvandez]

The host could at least know how to pronounce Schalk's name. Sheesh.

[@hermanstrydom3519]

John Eales

[@victordastile5204]

Great chat between Justin Marshall, Schalk Britz and the host. That other guy doesn't deserve to be there. Minimal contribution to the discussion.

[@joedennehy386]

You cannot include Skelton in any conversation about great international locks. He is a myth

[@victordastile5204]

Injury prone too

[@markthompson3398]

Nobody because nobody is perfect. If you don’t know how that is you do not know who the best lock GOAT is.

[@mikezog1030]

Didn't Richie McCaw break something and play anyway?

[@tommcg7564]

Agree with Tree and Frik du Preez. WJM is another, he bashed the 71 All Blacks and the 74 Springboks LOL.

[@kayvee6444]

Du Pont is not 24, he's 27

[@Damcarnivore]

David Kirk couldn’t have been that tall

[@SpaceMonkeyGVTV]

Dupont turns 27 this year...

[@rchw8052]

Definitely the best of all time. How can you not if you’re the most capped AB in history and been in the run on team since first selected.

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

Because others were better at the position. Most capped shows how thin the position is in NZ.

[@danemyburgh]

Most capped in a team and one of the most capped of all time doesn't translate to best ever. Matfield was better as a player in that position in my opinion. Was the whole package.

[@MrT67]

​@@danemyburghI disagree. Matfield didn't have the all round impact that Whitelock has had. I always felt Matfield was a bit absent in general play; lineout master for sure. However, Whitelock is also a lineout great. He's been the core reason for the All Black's improvements at lineout time since he came into the team. Whitelock is also always in the top 2 or three tacklers in the team and is a breakdown master, as we saw yesterday.... Can't say the same about Matfield.

[@MrT67]

​@@lmarislmarislmaris4271So how do you explain McCaw having 148 caps? Openside flanker is probably our most competitive position? Whitelock has the most caps because he's the best lock of the modern AB's era. He's kept some very good players out for a very long time.

[@ryanwaugh1]

No ways whitelock is the best ever.

[@ChinaNumbaWon]

I came here for Marshall

[@MISSROSE7744]

Thank you I too believe we can do it without polly his awesome but we can definitely do without

[@bombcollective]

For all talk about Saffa coaching, they didn’t take a kicker…😂

[@JohnEiao-gx4dn]

Yes he is

[@jameswyatt4443]

No way, he’s not even better than his partner, Retallick. And he can’t touch Etzebeth.

[@Wolf-hh4rv]

Whitelock? Bakkies, Victor and Eben at different level

[@jandreneethling5664]

double brandy et coca s'il vous plaît

[@GimliNZ]

31:45 mark - obviously recorded before teams announcement - but once again, Justin is wrong. Ardie has not been picked!

[@bengormley2517]

Fossies comment was silly.... ireland v south africa was edge of your seat stuff...i turn off the italian game at half time.

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

I didn't make it to the half.

[@Tom_McMurtry]

He was talking game flow and lack of stoppages rather than closeness/competitiveness and brutality of play

[@bengormley2517]

totally wrong game to make a point..italy didn't show up..totally boring game ..not a test at all.......France will be the same...@@Tom_McMurtry

[@taraishot100]

Na I’d rather have Brad thorn or even though I’m kiwi I’d have Victor Mattfield and Bakkies Botha they were awesome in the second row Mattfield and Brad thorn would have been unstoppable

[@IoaneAle]

Wouldn’t it be something to see the likes of Justin Marshall coach a rugby team and practice what they preach on these podcasts and see how they do 🤣

[@MrDugiwe]

_Eben has entered the chat_

[@paulturner4800]

And James Lowe picked him up and carried him out 😂

[@andeglenderson5240]

I'm a Kiwi and he would be in my top ten but not top five of all time.

[@user-cb7st7mf5f]

Yes total warrior

[@timgregory82]

I think the rest of this cup decides whether Whitelock is one of the greatest in his position or not

[@joedennehy386]

Sam Whitelock is a great Lock, he's not the best Lock New Zealand has produced, let alone the world

[@teawaruaedwards274]

The Horrorbees 😊

[@victorswart7411]

No Sam isnt in NZ maybe. He doesnt cast a shadow to Bakkies Botha and Victor Matfiel or even Eben

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

Or Lood, or RJ, or Paul O'Connell, etc. There are so few quality locks in NZ he looks more impressive to Marshall.

[@tommcg7564]

@@lmarislmarislmaris4271white lock, Retallick, Barrett, Vaai, Patrick Tuipulotu at home, yeah really thin alright

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

​@@tommcg75645 in the whole country. And keeping Barrett on the pitch is a struggle.

[@SuperEdge67]

@@lmarislmarislmaris4271 What are you smoking?

[@barneyboy2008]

​@@SuperEdge67i agree. Once retallick and whitelock retire, our locking stocks are looking thin. Vaai and tuipolotu are rubbish.

[@justinarmstrong193]

Retallic is better than Whitelock. Whitelock is the most consistent, and hardy, but he is not the best. I rate a few before him, but he is one of the greats

[@Againstdhawa]

Darth Vader Dupont

[@moes786121]

Bakkies botha victor Matfield 😊

[@kimonconidaris7375]

Boks 👍💯

[@debeerpaul]

To think Schalk is about my age but he looks in his 20s. LOL

[@pock0077]

Henry Speight has a South African accent 😂

[@JJs2121]

What?

[@ricellisfrost620]

With all that talent on your show, is the only title you could come up with if Sam Whitelock is the best sceond row?? Snore 🤔

[@howzit5406]

No Victor Matfield is

[@Ben-gd9zz]

These guys are actually at work lol some job 😂

[@DataDuncan]

No way. Retallik and Scotty B all day.

[@The-0189]

😂

[@thegulagarchipelago5921]

He's Great but not in top 5. #1 Matfield/Eels #2 Colin Meads/ Frik du Preez #3 Martin Johnson #4 Alan Wyn Jones So for me Whitelock is # 7 but just my opinion....

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

Paul O'Connell is ahead of him too, and Bakkes, Eben, and Lood are all better. So he doesn't make my top 10.

[@thegulagarchipelago5921]

@@lmarislmarislmaris4271 Paul O'!Connell? Who is she? Never heard of her!!!

[@granitesoldier7704]

@@lmarislmarislmaris4271 You can argue Eben but Bakkes was just a poor mans Brad Thorn. Paul O'Connell is alright but definitely not top 10, maybe top 30.

[@B3arAbl3]

Wait, I thought touchdowns were worth 7 points, but here they're saying it's just 6. And what's up with all this talk about 'downs'? I'm used to quarters and halves. This sport is seriously confusing!

[@Bokgat]

Foster is n doos

[@mr.e6748]

Matfield is still greater imo

[@jksinorbit]

Quick answer to that question...no.

[@petrusvandermerwe-ln7vs]

mattrfiueld poachewr disryuptor nr 1

[@wimpretorius434]

To play 150 games don’t make you the best. I can list 10 better or equal locks.

[@maiiyoung562]

ALL THE WAY ALL BLACKS😊😊

[@sebastiontyme8256]

NO!

[@Outdoorcookwarereviews]

Gary Whetton and and Jones..were better than whitlock..the Allblacks have had so many elite class locks ...whitlock would be top 10 but not No 1

[@reid6462]

What are you joking? The ABs never lost to Ireland until 5 or so years ago. Everytime since they have wiped us out in the forwards. Sam needs to win this weekend to have any sort of GOAT respect. The title is as dumb as, don't get ahaed of yourself. And I'm a ABs fan

[@rodeo4786]

No .top 10 .your welcome

[@aldobonaso3481]

Do your opinions change considering Dupond actually turns 27 next month? MISINFORMATION 🤣🤣

[@Bokgat]

Brits talks too much. The Aussie too respectful.

[@user-sl2nd3kf7e]

Although he is good he cant match Victor Matfield

[@justinwilken356]

Really, there's been some though guys in rugby's history,easy to play in the ABs team. Rediculous statement

[@Faust_ZA]

Lol who asked this silly question 🤣 everyone knows who eben is no one knows who whitelock is

[@Marius_vanderLubbe]

I feel no grudge against eben for this churlish comment.

[@ben9l351]

probably due to NZ pop. 5 million SA pop 60 million.............go figure

[@mjribes]

Easy answer - no.

[@gpac8147]

No

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

Same Whitelock is a cheap knockoff of Victor Matfield. He may be NZ's best ever, but isn't even the best in the Southern Hemisphere.

[@tommcg7564]

RWC Titles WHITELOCK 2* Matfield 1 No of tests WHITELOCK Win ratio WHITELOCK Win ratio all blacks vs sa WHITELOCK Tri nations / RC Titles WHITELOCK Longevity WHITELOCK Not to mention more Super rugby titles, and more wins and win ratio against all teams 🤫🤫🤫🤫

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

@@tommcg7564 so one player is a team? Comedy gold. By that standard, Jonah Lomu was a mediocre player. Not a single RWC to his name.

[@tommcg7564]

@@lmarislmarislmaris4271 Jonah is Jonah. Don’t deflect the facts. Bye now

[@lmarislmarislmaris4271]

@@tommcg7564 so you admit the logic is flawed. Good to know. Whitelock is an imitation, not as good as the original.