Is Serral really the GOAT? My response to

EffOrt is Undefeated vs FlaSh in best of 5's (all in finals of tournaments that EffOrt won). FlaSh is the GOAT regardless of this fact.
Thank you to feardragon for actually addressing my claims about Rogue.
I'm probably LIVE right now, check me out:
→Twitch: / artosis

[@2nerC9]

Serral has a crazy good record against ANY korean player...

[@memph1ston]

At least you're attempting to defend your controversial opinion. I guess the follow up question is: how many more tourneys must Serral win before he outstrips Rogue?

[@boringgames87668]

1 gsl

[@amai2307]

0, both cannot be called goat due to playing zergs.

[@Danielr0418]

​@@amai2307lol true!

[@NotSoSimple741]

​@@amai2307we found a terran player

[@Stray404]

so true lol

[@FanofStarcraft2]

Your arguments are sound: GSL is 'worth' more than the tournaments that Serral has won. However, this is such a limited argument because it is the only argument you could bring up in Rogue's defence. In my opinion, the definition of a GOAT is the person who has achieved the highest level in their field. As you have said yourself in this video, that's Serral. If you would smack elo on players, like you would do in Chess for example, Serral would be like Magnus Carlsen and have the highest rating of all time. And this ceiling wasn't a fluke either: he has maintained this level for years. So the only thing Rogue has going for him in this debate is the GSL victories, EVERYTHING else belongs to Serral (highest skill ceiling, winrates, direct confrontations with Rogue and yes, those definitely do matter when you are talking about 2 people in a 1v1 game, ... ) Therefore, Serral is the goat. Thank you for listening to my TED talk :)

[@andrewferguson6901]

if one is to value gsl wins so highly, I don't see why you'd place rogue over maru

[@FanofStarcraft2]

@@andrewferguson6901 because Maru hasn't performed well internationally, in contrast to both Serral and Rogue

[@mihairo83]

@@FanofStarcraft2 Serral vs. Maru are the last two major tournament Finals: IEM Katowice and ESL Masters. So I wouldn't say Maru didnt play well

[@FanofStarcraft2]

@mihairo83 ofcourse he is an insane player, he just doesn't have the international trophies that Rogue and Serral do have

[@IfNedWereHere]

Well your definition of GOAT is wrong so therefore you are wrong. No splitting hairs about it

[@Hurtone]

This is such a troll from Dan. The GOAT should obviously be great at online, offline, preparation and weekend alike. This is Serral!

[@maxbachvaroff1967]

I'd say that goat is about the difference between the person who is #1, and their competition who are ranked 2-10. The difference between Serral and the 2nd-10th best players currently, is bigger than the difference Rogue had over rank 2-10 at his peak. Another way to say this is that, while Rogue has arguably won more tournaments, the way that Serral has won his events makes him look like he's on a completely different level from everyone else. For example, at the recent ESL Finals, Serral only lost 2 maps in the entire tournament.

[@dotathewot390]

All of this after serral beat maru 4-0 again

[@tictacterminator]

RT is just applying his BW biases to SC2 even though it makes no sense. I might agree if someone said "you can't be the GOAT without a Golden Mouse in Brood War!" But that makes no sense for GSL, its just not the same level of competition, attention, pressure or prestige.

[@Illia5]

You can't discount all the online/region locked tournaments and then say Rogue won 4 GSLs. 2 of Rogue's GSL (and arguably the super tournament towards the end of 2021) wins happened during Covid where it was literally impossible to play in GSL if you aren't korean, thereby making them region locked. Serral also won 3 global DH masters (2020 Summer/Winter & 2021Fall) in that time, but those had to be played online because of Covid. You can't count Rogue's wins and ignore Serral's. Either both count or none.

[@game_jinx]

playing all koreans for a season. hahahaha. bro. eu sucks

[@game_jinx]

eu cope

[@itIsSpite]

@@game_jinx more like korean cope

[@Supperrman]

eu regionals are literally by the rules removing 90% of the top16 from the tournament. irrelevant for any goat debate.

[@norberthiz9318]

@@game_jinx can you tell me when was the last korean world champion crowned? I forgot for some reason...

[@EsportsStoryteller]

I mean, yesterday we just saw another confirmation... didn't we?

[@NotSoSimple741]

We did! but Arty doubled down. Even if Serral continues to win for the next 2-5 years. Arty will still quadruple down on Rogue being the 🐐

[@svsv1191]

@@NotSoSimple741 Might aswell call Nestea the goat

[@monkeybuttjon]

No, serral dominating in the twilight of starcrafts game arc doesnt undo that rogue was dominating in the peak of SC2

[@claymore7970]

I'm 100% convinced that if serral was Korean he would say he's the best ever. Boomers like him have always had an inferiority complex in StarCraft against koreans. Reminder they used to call non Koreans "foreigners" which is massive cringe

[@schwanimal]

He added the win, based on Art's criteria (and many in sports worlds for example) he still has the most prestigious wins (rings, ernie!) But Serral will likely pass him over time, so Artosis would say Serral is the goat when that happens

[@Meatbrawl]

Any GSL victory post 2018 has had diminished value, because they were no longer a tournament with the best player in it. In the same way that any WCS without the Koreans in it had diminished value for not forcing Serral to prove himself against the next best players.

[@Mglunafh]

Wait a minute Does that mean that we shouldn't look at gsl trophies as a prerequisite to apply for GoaT status since GSL fell off anyway? Kappa

[@kaiser2261]

Serral wins harder offline than online, lol. Such cope. Hes the best by nearly every metric available.

[@fifftv5191]

Isn't the issue that the strongest players were there because specifically, Serral doesn't play there? Reynor has, and gets bodied every time. The only other player of any real relevance is Clem, but he's certainly below the true couple of players. In GSL, you often have all but 1 or 2 of the best players in the world. In WCS you only have 1 or 2 of the best players in the world

[@greyberger]

Arty is like, serral is the most dominant player. And the one who wins the most, and also wins the biggest events and reliably beats all the other best players. And therefore rogue is the goat

[@paulogodinho3275]

How did Rogue fare in this latest event?

[@kmurphy0620]

If you look at Aligulac Rogue has no month been the best overall player while Serral has been for more than 5 years while beating the best players during this time period, and wins against Rogue head-to-head. Artosis puts tons of emphasis on GSL victories. I consider his GOAT metrics to actually be most accomplished because he has dominated Korea while the best player wasn't in Korea.

[@Datruthdacode]

no he said that Rouge was good for a period of time which makes him the GOAT and then says that Serral is not the GOAT because he was good for a period of time.

[@trombonemasta]

This is exactly how I parse everything in this debate. It is so bloody obvious that Serral is the best there has ever been and the greatest of all time. I don't know why Arty has this view.

[@Mglunafh]

GSL victories will not grant Serral the GOAT status, you know why? The deniers will rush to inform us that *"nah that doesn't count, GSL fell off, he should have been dominating during the times when sc2 in Korea was PEAK and KESPA teams were around"*

[@dustinyager11]

Dan why are we talking about this? Your own arguments that you think validate you devalidate you. Dan! What more do you want! The Strongest player that has ever been, with the most tournament wins and most prize money, In the most moddern era of SC2 which is the most critically skilled era, has the stats and win rates to back it up, who has in your words earned the Bonjwa Status, Still isn't the Greatest of all time? And then to act like Online behavior has no effect on the abilities of a player and there for online accomplishments should be completely not considered? And to top it all off you even want to argue that 1v1 doesn't impact the judgement of who is GOAT? What ever man. This is getting ridiculous. Nobody knows what your on about.

[@trombonemasta]

Agree entirely.

[@Lykyk]

Why do you write like a female psychology student who's about to flunk out after realizing university isn't like tumblr after all?

[@dustinyager11]

@@Lykyk "female"

[@K0nyygse]

I agree that Serral is just the strongest player ever. But there is one paramater that everyone seems to forget is that back then when Rogue was dominating, there was a bigger variety of good players that he had to face and all rather at their prime. Whereas nowadays there is a good top10 at most. The scene is just smaller but better than what it used to be. I don't know what's the hardest facing multiple different style at their prime or fewer players at their prime but better.

[@dustinyager11]

@@K0nyygse few players but better is more impressive. my skill these days could have won some GSL back in 2012. everyone is getting better. the game is getting figured out and the slope is much much steeper. what accomplished today is far more impressive than back then. i see why you're sedduced by that example but it actualy walks closer to my point than yours

[@kaiser2261]

Fun fact: Serral has never lost to Rogue offline.

[@bonerone9247]

Fun fact: there are multiple people that have never lost to Flash offline, and none of them will ever win ASL.

[@eka4015]

does artosis actually follow the sc2 scene

[@paulogodinho3275]

No, this is just to farm content.

[@kaiser2261]

I have been rage baited

[@alexanderdimitrov6916]

Last time i saw him play SC2,he was hard stuck in Plat. Im pretty sure hes got brain lag from playing too much Brood War

[@ningyuanlu8358]

1. You forgot ESL Jönköping in 2023 is also an offline tournament in your list. And you simply disregard the 3 online dreamhack events won by Serral, which is not making any sense. They were the official tournaments held by ESL and they were online not because they are tiny stuffs where people don't even care about, it's because players cannot travel freely during covid, and even IEM katowice 2021 (global final) is online, can you really disregard the global final?? On the other hand, GSLs are less affected by covid era... So YOU DEF CANNOT IGNORE THE DH/ESL WON BY SERRAL. 2. You forgot the 2 GSL vs World tournaments won by Serral, it is a OFFLINE tournament players all over the world can participate and it was fairly prestigious, and even counted as an "global event"in GSL series. 3. The 2 arguments above are leading towards this statement: "Do you really believe GSL since 2018 are more prestigious than the other international events like ESL, DH, or GvW?" I don't think so, the strongest argument is that, we have more Non-korean players winning the international tournaments such as IEM, ESL masters, WCS and DH than Koreans did. For IEM katowice finals: 2024 2023, 2022, 2021 are won by non-koreans and 2020 2018 2019 are won by GSL players from Korean; For WCS finals: 2018 is won by nonkorean and 2019 is won by Korean; For GVW: we have 2 both won by non-koreans; For DH/ESL masters: we have 5 from Serral, 2 from Reynor and 1 from Clem, 8 combined, and we have 2 from Maru, 1 from Dark and 1 from herO, and 1 from Trap, 5 combined. So see clearly, after 2018 where GSL players are not more competetive in International events than non-GSL players. You may mention Reynor who got knocked out in Ro16 in GSL to defend GSL's value, but remember Reynor did not won any DH/ESL/IEM during his time he participated in GSL, he is not consistent in performance at all. Therefore, "you can't be goat because you've never won any GSL" is invalid since GSL is not that prestigious than it used to be.

[@wedgeantilles8575]

To deny Serral is the GOAT is pure comedy at this point. It's like denying the US AirForce is the most powerful and dominating airforce in the world. Or denying that the Earth is round. Serral being the GOAT is not even close, it's a simple fact. You can prefer other players, you can like them more, you can think other players are more fun to watch... All fair game. But if you deny that he is the GOAT, you are just a clown.

[@tffkap]

Bonjwa from 2018 to 2024, i think 6 years as the best in the world qualifies you as the goat. Come on Dan, stop trolling lol

[@Mglunafh]

I'd say GoaT of LotV is fair title

[@SoapSoapCrayon]

Effort is undefeated vs Flash in Bo5s and he's not the GOAT true. If Effort was undefeated vs flash in every single offline set, and was also winning every single tournament with both in attendance, and was dominating every single other top player at the time, and winning every single global championship at the same time, then he'd probably be the GOAT too. Really it's just that those GSL Code S's were won without Serral in attendance. Serral had 100% winrate in sets against Rogue in literally all those years Rogue won GSLs. I've said this elsewhere, but it's the same as the current thing happening in Chess. Magnus Carlson is almost certainly the GOAT and definitely the strongest player right now. He refused to defend his World Championship title because the format of the tournament is stupid. It's a mark against the Chess World Championship, not against Magnus. And you can also say the same for GSL. It's a mark against GSL that the best player is unable to attend due to the format, not against Serral.

[@krogan3760]

but him beating Flash would have nothing to do with his goat status

[@tictacterminator]

RT is talking like GSL in 2024 is comparable to like the OSL in its heyday And its just not lol

[@eduardossj3]

GSL is a Korean tournament. The global events is what really counts. Serral is the GOAT!

[@kmurphy0620]

Artosis' beliefs of GOAT are actually that of a Most Accomplished player. Winning GSL against Korean only competition when the best player is not Korean does not make you the best player. You cannot beat the 3rd and 4th best players in the world to be considered the best player. Head-to-head matchups do matter because it's a direct comparison of skill, and Rogue never matched Serral, and Serral shown he was dominant against all other competition over the last 5+ years. I could never use GOAT in a way that doesn't mean the best player, but Artosis is very comfortable with it.

[@LuisLazoLarrain]

This is a problem in choosing goats at any sports anyway. Happens in Tennis, Football (not american) and Basketball

[@The_Independant_Pit]

Pretty much the best way to put it.

[@momoaa]

I hate that people bring other sports into it. Like yea you cant really bring the head to head into consideration for MJ and lebron because basketball is a team game, but this is the game the gsl itself advertises as the most competitive 1v1 game, and yeah it is straight up 1v1, no excuses at the end of the day. Sure its not the be all and end all but i think its disingenuous to not consider the head to head matchup

[@benderunit44]

Non-koreans were nothing during Rogue's domination. Was it not the time when they finally kicked Koreans (MC, Taeja, Parting etc) from Foreign tournaments? And whatever good foreigners could not far in Code S. The "stallion" and the fin were still in diapers.

[@kmurphy0620]

@@benderunit44 Rogue was never the dominant player, as Aligulac shows. Not for 1 month ever was he the best player overall. Serral was the best player during most of his GSL wins. You are wrong that the only or Rogue's best competition was from Korea

[@VeryBadPlayerTV]

There is already an extremely in depth video on this. I commented on pig's channel i think someone already did like graphs on the achievements of all sc pros. Serral is quite literally so far ahead of everyone else its not even a discussion if anyone is close to serral. He is quite literally a decade ahead of anyone else.

[@tigonridge]

That was Probe_SC2. Yes, he did a very thorough assessment, taking in multiple criteria. I look forward to an update, if he will make one. I will point, though, that his winrates did not account for Serral beating a lot of low-level EU players. That's about it.

[@kz.irudimen]

You're right, he has never won a GSL, he can never be the greatest of all time, there is no discussion.

[@LoverDino]

Serral is GOAT. Just yesterday demolished the best player in Korea 4-0 who has been crushing the GSL.

[@VultureEU]

We need a State of the Game to have a proper debate

[@DAMND3Xx]

Those were the days. RIP iNcontroL.

[@CallousCarter]

​@@DAMND3XxDidn't realise he died until I saw your comment. Very sad. He entertained me a lot back in the day on those podcasts.

[@Caldera01]

@@CallousCarter TotalBiscuit and iNcontroL in rapid succession. That was a rough time for gaming overall.

[@OGuardadorDeRebanhos]

Soooo, your argument is that he isn't the GOAT, but the SOAP (strongest of all periods). I see.

[@Jecht1221]

lmao

[@OpiatesAndTits]

This is stupid

[@NealX_Gaming]

There are many ways to measure GOAT and it can be subjective. Artosis' preferred way of measuring it is with high-level tournament wins. However, I believe that is not measuring "greatest player of all time" that is measuring "most ACCOMPLISHED player of all time". Historians rank the greatest US Presidents by many criteria, and usually only ONE of them is "accomplishments while in office". Some of the greatest Presidents had fewer accomplishments they could list than others, for example, George Washington is consistently ranked as one of the great Presidents, though if you asked most people to rattle off a list of what he accomplished while in office, they couldn't tell you. He is considered great because of how he set the mold for what being a US President even means -- he was role-defining. In the NBA, some people will measure the GOAT by "number of rings" (NBA Championships). However, very few people rank Bill Russell (11 rings) over Michael Jordan (6 rings). My "GOAT" criteria is simple: who would I bet my life savings on to win me a game or series of Starcraft 2? The answer is Serral, and it's honestly not even close. Because, I believe he has proven from his performances against all comers, including the other GOAT candidates, that he is the most likely to win a particular game or series than anyone else who has ever played. Because his is BETTER AT THE GAME than anyone else, full stop. There are times where "most accomplished" and "GOAT" can overlap, of course -- for example, Michael Phelps has the most Olympic Gold Medals of any swimmer, but I'd also consider him the GOAT swimmer at the same time, because he is the most likely to win any particular event or race of anyone in history. If I had to bet the farm on one man to win a race on the water, I'd bet on Phelps in his prime, and so would you.

[@AlacrityTW]

Artosis is coping so hard. He like Skip Bayless of SC2

[@meeeplo]

LEBRON DODGED THE CLIPPERS -skip 2020

[@anthonyg24]

Delusional

[@AimRobot]

So Serral is pretty much punished for being born outside of Korea. I dont think he understand how comfy it is to stay in your own country for tournaments.

[@fifftv5191]

Like can't the same be said for any competition? What if you had the best tennis player in the world, but they refused to travel outside the EU to play and so never won the grand slams outside of the EU. They could still be the goat, but you would need to talk about it and mention its a major blemish on their career

[@tictacterminator]

Look I get the argument in Brood War of "Need a Golden Mouse to be considered GOAT" There will never be the level of competition there was during the OSL, but that doesn't make sense for the GSL. The dominance of Korean players in SC2 is just not there the same way it is in Brood War. A foreigner, Grrr, won the first OSL in Brood War. And the Koreans never let us win anything ever again. That is not the case in SC2. lol

[@scroogietw6878]

His back must hurt from moving so many goalposts.

[@dfg12382]

"The things I say that matter matter and the other things not" is the only way to get to Rogue as the GOAT. Serral is the objectively BETTER player, no matter which of his wins/winrates Artosis does discredit. The basketball analogy doesn't work at all, MJ is considered the GOAT even without having won the most titles.

[@FlokiTech]

Artosis literally said in the video he thinks Serral is the better player. But the GOAT is not the same as the current best player.

[@dfg12382]

@@FlokiTech I am not saying Serral is the GOAT because he is the best player. He is the best player AND the GOAT. As long as Artosis sits on his "GSL >>> Everything" and "online game doesn't matter" hill, I and many others won't agree.

[@ahejleira5654]

@@FlokiTech How can you be the GOAT with a negative win rate against the best player?

[@zenartvonduke380]

@@ahejleira5654 how can you be a GOAT if you select the tournaments you play in? couldn't be even Called a BONJWA, because he doesn't play in SK. no term for Bonjwas outside of SK.

[@kaiser2261]

This is such an insane perspective. GSL is landlocked to Korean residents. You are making it almost impossible for anyone not in Korea to be eligible for being the GOAT. This is like saying Pele is not the soccer GOAT because he didn't play in Europe and stayed in Brazil. Yet nearly every time the Europeans came to play him he dominated them. Therefore only Europeans/European residents can be considered GOATs of soccer because the best soccer is played in Europe. Quite literally the same argument Artosis is making. Its nonsense. Serral did not have the opportunity to compete in GSL so that cannot be used against him. The fact is: Serral crushes Rogue head to head. Serral has been the #1 player for the longest time ever. Serral doubles Rogue's Premier and overall gold medal count. Serral has looked unstoppable numerous times in his career. Serral is better, and its not even close.

[@db_1337]

The performance Serral put on at this last event solidified it for me. We all know that if Serral played in the GSL events he would have won some of those. Good video though.

[@sc2unstable]

I still remember watching Serral in dreamhack Bucharest 2013, peaking over his shoulder in his game vs " Darkthorn " in group stage 1, where had had a 4v4 roach battle on a ramp, and used burrow/unburrow focus target and lost 1 or maybe even 0 roaches. This was the first time I actually saw a zerg player individually micro units to maximize outcome and was 100% sure this guy was going places... he then smashed me 2:0, but in my mind almost managed to cheese him :D.

[@bennagadowski8284]

Artosis got destroyed by Feardragon in his own video.

[@Hydro-it4fj]

Why did he ignore GSL vs the world and IEMs when comparing tournaments? lol wut

[@norberthiz9318]

You are probably not gonna read this again but whatever here we go. I think it is intellectually dishonest of you to claim that rogue and serral's head to head offline doesn't mean much; becasue it is not just about serral and rogue's head to head offline, its exactly the same with literally every single one of the best players of the last 6 or so years. PiG in his video showed a statistic about this here is serral's head to head in offline tournaments against every single top player since 2018 (one or two result could be like a nation war or wtl I think, but the absolute majority was in normal premier tournaments): Maru 5-1 83.33% Rogue 4-0 100.00% INno 7-3 70.00% Zest 4-1 80.00% soo 6-3 66.67% Dark 6-0 100.00% Stats 5-3 62.50% Trap 4-0 100.00% Solar 1-2 33.33% Cure 2-0 100.00% herO 3-0 100.00% TY 3-0 100.00% Reynor 12-4 75.00% Clem 6-1 85.71% Byun 3-1 75.00% classic 3-2 60.00% Feardragon only showed serral and rogues offline head to head, and i agree that that alone doesn't mean much(still means a bit but not much), but if you do that for ALL the best in the world, and then you get a result where there is one single neagitve winrate(thats also becasue of small sample size + plus its a zvz so anything can happen), then that cannot just be ignored. Serral has benn dominating EVERYBODY and thats what a goat does, right? You also said that even tho serral is the strongest player that doesn't mean he is the goat, but I find that so weird. If they played in different eras sure I agree you can't compare on that, but Serral has always been the undisputed best player in the world since 2018, and rogue won everything he has won since 2017. So waht you have is that rogue has been the best player in 2017, while serral has been the undisputed better player since 2018 even when he didn't win everything he was clearly the better player, so again i don't think you can claim rogue is above serral. Since serral and rogue were on top in the almost exact same time frame, I think it is totally fine to say that serral is the goat because he has been a better player then rogue. Also why did you ignore feardragon's point about serral's top2 and top4 finishes? Consitantly having high finishes in big tournaments also matters and proves he is extreamly consistant, and consistancy IS impoortant for a goat. Even if you disagree you shouldn't have ignored it but explain why.

[@trombonemasta]

Yes. Entirely agree.

[@NotSoSimple741]

Oh so heads up matches don't count. Why not? Their both tournament Pros. That should be a factor when determining GOAT status. Also, in Rogues' prime vs Serrals' prime. Serral would win consistently.

[@kmurphy0620]

Can you be the GOAT if you consistently lose to the best player at the time throughout even your peak?

[@trombonemasta]

"Why not?" Because it is devastating to his case--as is including all of the things he more or less arbitrarily leaves out.

[@mihairo83]

When Rogue won, Zerg was OP, no offence. Then Terran was OP, remember 4 Terrans in the GSL Semifinals, including Bunny. Where is Bunny now? And before that, in the 2010s Protoss was very OP. That's why no ProToss of the early 2010 is even mentioned as one of the Greats. Maru beats Rogue anytime IMHO. To say that the player who's won more than the player who's won less is not better and to say that the playes who's won less and never defeated the other guy face-to-face even if they met 4 times - that's 4 times Serral has defeated Rogue in offline events - I totally agree with Feardragon... Why is there a f discussion? 1. Serral 2. Maru 3. Rogue I bet Rogue will never win 8 GSLs like Maru. Let me know when that happens.

[@jiminianmc]

Tournament wins aren't some grand important thing in themselves. Tournaments are there to pit the best players against each other to show who is the best. GSL Code S is great, but the reality is, its a 99% regional tournament. Just because it's *technically* not region locked doesn't change that fact. And so it's great that Rogue won so many GSL's. But all that does is show that during that time, he was among the strongest players in Korea at the time. At the end of the day, a GOAT is someone who is dominant over all other players, by the widest margin, for the longest time, and had the biggest impact on the game over all. Serral has EASILY had the longest record of dominance on the world stage, and when he is form, has the highest level of skill relative to other top players that has ever been seen. It doesn't make any sense to say that Rogue is the GOAT over Serral, if Rogue literally never beat Serral in an offline event. Perhaps that would be different if they played during very different times, where skill levels overall were very different. If that were the case, maybe we could ignore the fact that Rogue never beat serral, but there was a huge overlap in the periods which they played. At the end of the day, it really does feel like Korean deepthroating where it really has no place. GSL is great. It is prestigious. But at the end of the day, it's a regional tournament, with regional champions..

[@akiramatsuda3649]

no

[@itIsSpite]

@@akiramatsuda3649 yes

[@nanotech2080]

@@akiramatsuda3649what of what he said was wrong? Arty is korea dickriding, it's a fact. He's stuck in bw era, the korea vs world gap in sc2 is simply not there anymore.

[@chloesmith4065]

people will hate you because you're telling the truth

[@poppy3318]

@@akiramatsuda3649 He's got a poiint.

[@Hurtone]

So according to Dan - MC would also be higher scoring than Serral? He has 2 GSL wins and 2 world blizzcon wins.

[@justinlai2035]

sounds pretty based

[@TheDedloc]

Serral pretty much sealed the deal on this argument last weekend. The fact he won again while this conversation is even in the air is just icing on the cake for me lol

[@dcp2047]

No tournaments after 2020 March should count. Nowdays there is almost no competition. Only Maru and Serral are left and Maru IS half injured.

[@TheDedloc]

You shouldnt be allowed to own a keyboard.

[@ningyuanlu8358]

@@dcp2047 You shouldnt be allowed to own a keyboard.

[@LoverDino]

Meanwhile Serral once again obliterates his competition in DH dallas, and 4-0's maru for the second time in the past year. Serral's dominance is completely utterly unmatched especially by Rogue.

[@game_jinx]

maru not a goat tho

[@availabl3account]

Arty explained Maru is not even in the GOAT discussion. Why it is so hard to listen?

[@dcp2047]

So what? Maru is half injured and all the top koreans but Dark went to the army. Its true some returned but it is not the same. Nowdays tournaments dont count any longer.

[@kaiser2261]

@@dcp2047 that is such BS. the quality of SC2 play at the top level has never been higher.

[@philippwanko8279]

I have to go with feardragon on this one. I think consistency matters and the tournament wins are comparable enough even if you give rogue the edge, serral just has won so much more across a long period of time.

[@lrkslash]

Something that's missing from this analysis is that even at the peak of his career, Rogue was totally inconsistent in his performance. He never dominated any scene, foreign or Korean. The reason Artosis is pushing this absurd point so hard is because he feels insecure about the GSL becoming less relevant. He needs to get over himself.

[@jeffreywarf]

4-0 Back to back In international premier tournaments

[@paulogodinho3275]

10 of them, 10 premier international tournaments.

[@husman2368]

This isn't serral vs Maru is Serral vs Rogue

[@jeffreywarf]

@@husman2368 yeah that's what I'm saying. Who else has such a perfect record of basically NEVER dropping maps over multiple patches in sc2?

[@garfieldscv7149]

GOAT is greatest of ALL TIME. Serral was not even good enough to play Maru in 2014 2015 2016 2017, so the record in those years is 0-0 between them? He is very strong now but the fact above makes the statistics misleading.

[@rahawala]

@@paulogodinho3275 I think by ESL's definition, Oliveira also has 10 (and before Serral?)

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

Honestly, I think arguing which tournament counts towards GOAT status is overcomplicating it. What if we just think of it in terms of eras? What years was Rogue actually better at the game than Serral? 2017, obviously, when Rogue won the world championship before Serral was a top player, and Rogue should get credit for his eariler career of course. But have there been any other such years since then? Has there actually been a single year between 2018-2022 when Rogue was better than Serral? Has there actually been a year any time from 2018-2024 when someone other than Serral was the best player in the world? (Maybe there has, I haven't checked each individual year for tournament results, but if there hasn't we're looking at Rogue being the best in 2017, and Serral being the best for the next 7 years, and yeah, if that's the case, arguing for Rogue over Serral seems silly to me).

[@patrass]

I would say for 2017-2020 - Rouge and Serral very close in terms of glory. But after 2021 - Serral is on top . So he is the GOAT so far.

[@FreddieBM]

The goat is the best player to ever do it, the highest skilled player ever, the player who, at their peak is favored against everyone else. Serral is undisputed by that and i say that as a protoss fanboy

[@jacob6215]

Serrals play style is also indicative of more skill than rogue. Sure, Rogue is highly intelligent and really good at preparing for his opponents, but I’m sorry Rogue has just never had the raw and fluid mechanical ability to dominate anyone anywhere anytime like Serral. When Serral won the GSL vs the world against Stats I got the biggest nerd chills man

[@eLECHtricity]

yea it was really crazy how he was down 3-1 because he couldn't take Stats on in a macro game and then roach all in'd 3 times to win the series.

[@Icetemplar]

@@eLECHtricity To be fair, that was the Start of Serrals era, before he became the best ultra late game player in the world (shout out to Maru, Stats and TY who are also some of the best late game players ever).

[@eLECHtricity]

@@Icetemplar My problem with serral is his fans. They refuse to acknowledge how objectively overpowered zerg was from 2018-2021. People talking about how he was so dominant in 2018 like Mana or Has was the same caliber of opponent as Zest or Stats or TY or Classic, who maru was beating in finals at the time. Casters saying "look at this guy's micro!" when he's volleying roaches on top of immortals in the open. Serral is a great player. Probably the strongest player ever. But his legacy is very tainted because for years starcraft 2 was Toss beats terran beats zerg beats toss, and up until Clem european terrans were nowhere near the level of titans of the game like Maru, TY or Innovation. Serral in 2018 and 2019 was very good, but his competition did not compare to the level of play in Korea. You can go watch clips of harassments from oracles and see the difference. In Foriegn events the oracles would stop and move and stop. In korean events they never stopped moving and killed 3 drones. You can't act like thats a similar level of competitiveness. The first time Serral faced off against a real Titan of Korea at the time he was getting butchered. But nobody talks about it. He barely pulled out a win through very basic roach all ins that require way more skill to hold than execute but people called him "god king." At that event, Stats was clearly the better player in that series. After that event Serral did get better, but at the sime time people started remembering that zerg spellcasters existed and PvZ became unwinnable late game unless the zerg really really messed up multiple times. it took 3 years of that being the state of PvZ before infested terrans were removed and counterplay was added to abduct--both changes that stopped zergs from killing expensive air units for literally free. Three years where toss could only win through deception, and deception alone does not win a Bo5 or Bo7. But everyone wants to ignore that. Serral is a fantastic player, but there being that many external factors in his favor for so long really hampers any argument for calling him the GOAT.

[@elementsar9668]

@@eLECHtricity I admit Zerg was overpowered, Serral just made it superclear infested terrans should be nerfed.And Blizzard actually removed them.

[@jacob6215]

@@eLECHtricity bruh wasnt the only maps serral dropped in this past ESL was to oliveira? why couldn't any of the korean zergs dominate as hard as serral did if it was so broken

[@hullmees666]

Honestly, come back when you dont treat everything but top1as having never entered the tournament. Not only wins matter. Like how the actual fuck can one claim serral is a bonjwa (only one sc2 has ever had) during the most skilled era of the game and not be a goat. Even if serral retired tomorrow he would be remembered as the goat and i think rogue himself would agree.

[@ryanlutes9833]

There is no resolution to the disagreement until people can actually agree on a rigid definition of GOAT. It is pointless to argue either way until then; you can't just arbitrarily decide which tournaments really count or not based on "prestige". You need a more concrete definition. Artosis even admits that the "prestigiousness" of an event can vary from year to year. And, since we're not involving prize money, we need something else measurable, or it's not something you can really base an argument on. I mean, can you tally up how "prestigious" each individual win was and compare the two? of course not. I have no skin in the game either way, rogue or serral. I'm only a casual watcher of SC and its comp scene. But it's an entertaining debate nevertheless.

[@oldoddjobs]

Hey you leave the word "greatest" alone, its ambiguity lets us debate frivolously like this forever 😅

[@Benn1to]

Ignoring all results from the COVID pandemic era of online-only tournaments is the height of intellectual dishonesty. All of his Season Finals victories should count to his Premier record. But anyway, this talk of Serral being a bonjwa is silly. With his results in the tournaments that he's participated in since 2018, he has a better record than Flash. Serral is the God of SC2

[@bigmikeobama5314]

saying he has a better record than flash as if thats a flex, knowing he didnt really play in a league or a game that flash even primarily played is intellectually dishonest

[@trombonemasta]

@@bigmikeobama5314 No it's not. Read it again.

[@hallo-mt5tx]

determining who the goat is pretty much purely on korean tournaments is totally wrong in my opinion that makes sense in the sc1 scene where everyone is korean and goes to korean tournaments purely based on skill

[@Supergoon1989]

14:22 "I think that Serral is the strongest player that there has ever been" - that's exactly what GOAT is, you just went against your own argument. I agree Serral is the Strongest ever, too.

[@philongpham3886]

4 GSL, that’s impressive, but then Maru is the undisputed king of GSL with 8 titles and the reigning champion got smoked by Serral 4-0 twice in a row. so yeah, Serral is the goat.

[@provrorsbarn]

If you only watch HOW Serral plays you can tell hes the GOAT. Thats what Im basing it on. Nobody does it like him

[@marketingcoelho2058]

As amazing as these the two players are, in my opinion Serral wins are not as patched as Rogue. When I think about the Rogue domination, I always recon nydus worm, roach and hydra timings, that most of it were nerfed afterwards

[@NotSoSimple741]

Rogue is the goat of exploits 😂

[@husman2368]

Serral is literally playing in the most zerg favoured patch. Lotv is pure zerg.

[@chloesmith4065]

Yeah nerf banelings hp by 10 most Zerg favored patch ever totally man. You weren't here for broodlords infestor, you weren't here for Nydus swarmhost.

[@marketingcoelho2058]

@@husman2368 You're joking ahah. I remember when the pros would go nydus swarm hosts or mass banelings vs toss and we knew it was gg

[@availabl3account]

@@husman2368 Zerg nerfed to the ground in LOTV: Ultralisk nerfed Hydralisk nerfed by splitting the upgrades Broodlord nerfed twice range and leash ranged Swarmhost nerfed Infestor nerfed 3 times ( Fungal not stopping, neural range) Infestor ability: infested terran REMOVED... Overlord drop nerfed and moved to lair Queen nerfed 4 times, ground to air range, creep spreding and transfuse abilites nerfed. And terran counter to all hive tech is buffed absurdly, this is why zerg player base is not playing the game You can check yourself sc2ranked, zerg player numbers dropped more than all other races after Broodlord nerf and Ghost, thor buff. Which ruined the game for regular players and Many terrible terrans have less than %50 win rate in TvT and TvP but above %60 in TvZ. In pro scene things might be different but this is the reality of player base.

[@sc2unstable]

The only difference with prep tournaments is there's more protoss players that prepare all-ins, and when was the last time Serral lost to protoss? In any case every player, that reaches a final should know with a high certainty that he'll play Serral between round of 8 and finals, so you can say, players can prepare special builds vs Serral, while he doesn't really know who he's going to play, so that's an advantage to the rest of the field. The other thing we can see is since prep tournaments you play less matches per day than round 8 to finals, generally we can assume Serral has better stamina than the rest of the field and/or better nerves in live games. Anyway Rogue did military service for far too long, and Serral continues to win everything, so we can assume Serral will outdo rogue in the coming years so nut much point in debating more... Serral is the goat... confirmed...

[@trombonemasta]

Right. It is silly to assume that the entire field is not already "preparing" for Serral.

[@retjah183]

You're miles off on this one arty

[@ed21x]

I also don't like Arty's emphasis on prep tournaments- mainly because they tend to be far more gimmicky as players look at opposing player styles and exploit specific timings or cheeses that work just for that player. In non-prep tournaments, people tend to play safer and you tend to see how good people's base skills are. Serral is not good because he prepares cheesy builds, he is good because of his scouting, timing, split second decision making, multitasking, and macro. Pretty much any game that makes it to mid-late you already know Serral will be favored. While Rogue is very good, he never felt dominant on the same level as Maru or Serral.

[@tigonridge]

This is a very good argument regarding prep vs non-prep tournament. I would also add that any player who doesn't prep for Serral doesn't have the professionalism to be considered GOAT. OF COURSE you prep for Serral! That's just a no-brainer. I would also add that every player prepares builds regardless of whether it's GSL or a global championship. I mean, how else did sOS win his big ones?!

[@Reala27]

What would Serral have to do to change your mind? If he did a GSL next year and won, is he the GOAT then? Just curious what would change that status in your mind. (Not a hate comment, just find this back and forth fascinating).

[@keksimusmaximus6668]

LeBron James would NOT smoke MJ in a 1v1. are you kidding me Arty?

[@dwightr.arenas5077]

I think he means rn he would, not prime vs prime.

[@B1gLupu]

@@dwightr.arenas5077 Game evolves over time, and in games you only ever see players compared to the rest of the field. He could mean prime vs prime. In most cases, dominant guys from the past would not do well today, since the craft evolves over time.

[@Danielr0418]

It doesn't matter anyway it is a completely false equivalency to begin with. One of the players (Serral) was more dominant for longer AND was has the best peak.

[@raymondsjursen4470]

That take just as bad as Rogue goat

[@monkeybuttjon]

he absolutely would. Lebron is bigger, stronger, faster and has better 3pt shooting.

[@Kickproof]

I guess I don't understand why GSL is so important in this debate. The point of placing certain tournaments above others as far as value comes down to 2 things: The quality of the players playing in the tournament and how much prep are the players doing for it. If a tournament like IEM has the absolute best players in the world attending and they are all preping to the maximum for it why would it hold less value than a GSL? It seems they would be equal in that regard no?

[@thorn969]

I think people are critical of your decision to completely dismiss online events out of hand and your decision to weight GSL above international competition. Especially considering that 2/4 Rogue GSL wins had no audience. Rogue has 2 GSL Code S wins before an audience and 2 that were essentially online. Traveling to Korea to participate in lengthy GSL events offline is practically disqualifying for online European events because of the ping. And was further restricted during COVID. He has 2 GSL ST wins. 2 IEM Katowice wins and 1 other IEM win and the TSL8 win. And BlizzCon 2017. So for premiere tournaments with international competition, that is 7 wins. Say you don't count the tournaments where Koreans weren't allowed. Serral won 2018 and 2019 GSL vs the World, 2018 BlizzCon, 3 premier HSC and several others. 3 Online ESL DH international finals and NeXT 2021, 2 Katowice (so they're equal on that, equal on BlizzCon too). TSL9 to counter Rogue's TSL8. 2 Master's Coliseum. And now 2 offline ESL Master's in the last year. That is 17 internationally competitive Premiere tournaments. Discount the 6 online tournaments, Serral still has an advantage. If you remove similar tournaments, you're saying that Rogue winning two sealed GSL Code S, two open GSL Code S, two GSL ST that were essentially regionlocked weekend tournaments, and IEM Shanghai counts more than Serral winning 3 HSC, one of which was an official ESL event, 2 GSL vs the World, 3 online DH ESL events, and 2 offline ESL international finals (plus the Coliseum).

[@trombonemasta]

Yes, it's odd to discount half of Serral's accomplishments and then declare Rogue the GOAT.

[@bakibakson4808]

This is on the level of saying that Nadal is the GOAT before Djokovic because he has more Roland Garros titles. He can be the GOAT of Roland Garros, just like Rouge can be the GOAT of GSL (which is questionable next to MARU). And at the end of the day, why are we talking about GOAT if Serral, Rouge, Maru are still playing and competing? When they finish their careers, we can discuss it. Until then, we know one thing: For now, Serral is the best player in the SC2 that ever played the game, and that is unquestionable!

[@oldoddjobs]

"Greatest" is a wonderfully ambiguous word - let's never define it so the debate can continue forever 😊😊 Artosis does come close to saying that Serral is better, stronger, more skilled, more dominant than Rogue... but is not 'greater' Which isn't necessarily inconsistent but does require elaboration

[@brian_andersen]

Careful with the basketball references because MJ is clearly the basketball goat… but hasn’t won nearly the most championships. But clearly the most dominant player ever. Like Serral.

[@LuisLazoLarrain]

i just wonder how the hell a GSL is more valuable than a ESL/Dreamhack season finals? dude literally koreans qualify via GSL and if not still travel to play on the open brackets, with all the europeans, n/a, chinese players. AND SERRAL HAVE WON 6 DUDE! winning finals against Maru, Trap, Stats, Raynor and Gumiho. Anyway i totally agree that the GOAT discussion should be between Rogue and Serral instead of Maru.

[@SsSHardt]

Is there ever going to be a discussion about how Zergs are the dominant race in Weekend style tournaments? About how high we are truly going to value a defensive macro zerg winning a weekend style format? Or how Rogue, and Serral, both have all (and most) of their wins 2018-2022 where Zergs was clearly the best race and have since been nerfed both by real nerfs and by actualy not just making all the maps in the map pool zerg favoured? So for me it really comes down to how CRAZY good was zerg in those years ESPECIALLY 2017-2022 For example lets list the highest pricepool tournaments of those years, wich are all weeekend style tournaments. WCS 2017: Top 3 - 2Z + 1T (Rogue 1st, soO 2nd, Special 3rd) WCS 2018: Top 3 - 2Z + 1P (Serral 1st, Stats 2nd, Rogue 3rd) WCS 2019: Top 3 - 2Z + 1P (Dark 1st, Reynor 2nd, Classic 3rd) + Serral 4th IEM Katowice 2022: Top 3 - 3Z (Serral 1st, Reynor 2nd, Rogue 3rd) IEM Katowice 2020: Top 3 - 1Z 1P 1T (Rogue 1st, Zest 2nd, Maru 3rd) + Serral 4th IEM WC 2018: Top 3 - 2Z 1P (Rogue 1st, Classic 2nd, Serral 3rd) This is the most price pool money tournament from 2017-2022 -- Total price pool money of 3.4 mill dollars. The total Top 3 is 12Z +4P +2T in the most high valued weekend style tournaments from those years. The 1st places are 6Z! And this is the only reason Rogue OR Serral are even close to be in the talks of being the GOAT. You cannot sweep those facts under the rug when you talk about how much those weekend style tournaments are worth in terms of bringing the GOAT status. Basically you are all disregarding 2 out of 3 races cause Zergs always had the upper hand in this format, and they where literally OP for 5 years of the game. Especially playing the all defensive plays that a weekend style tournament brings.

[@retjah183]

in the 3 gsl's and 2 super tournaments in korea in 2018, no zerg made final 2018 wasnt zerg favored at all. 2019 was zerg favored with nydus worms. Serral best performances are 2018, and 2022-2024, when zerg is not strong.

[@cavemantero]

Zerg is still overpowered even with all the nerfs and has been since HotS. When you can gain a 5+ to 3 economic advantage with little to no risk you can't argue against the imbalance being a major factor. They are fundamentally broken because of the centering around the queen design. Its simply too strong early game and makes banelings (which shouldn't even exist) also broken.

[@rnf123]

Extremely important comment. Also, It's my personal opinion that Zerg is still OP, it's OP-ness relative to P and T has only been reduced by about 60%. Zerg is still by far the most OP race. Zerg macro is simply better than Terran or Protoss micro when played perfectly. Zerg can simply drone up too fast. Zerglings and Queens are just absurdly good for being mineral only units. Roaches are so durable and easy to mass. Creep is the best vision mechanic in the game and doesnt cost any money. When you look at the units that arrived with Legacy of the Void it's clear that the Lurker and Ravager were BY FAR the best pair, easily being better than Adept+Disruptor or Cyclone+Liberator.

[@killerboy4441]

You are spot on and not enough people think about this. Well said !

[@trombonemasta]

@@cavemantero That's just untrue. All of the Zergs EXCEPT Serral got wrecked in both late game macro and timing/all-in-style matches. Serral's success has nerfed Zerg into the ground, making it much harder for everyone else, especially ladder heroes.

[@mstover83]

Oh no, bringing nba comparisons with MJ and Lebron into this… not your wheelhouse

[@mstover83]

And then look up Bill Russell

[@hcmac]

sorry dude it's serral. facts don't lie.

[@humanchristiaan98]

In my opinion, all tournaments should count with a score added to them. Like Premier = 10 points and major region locked tournaments = 3 points or something like that. It does seem silly to ignore most tournaments when deciding on the greatest of ALL time. However, this argument might be settled at the next world championship. If Serral wins, then he is officially the GOAT. Otherwise, the debate will continue.

[@gromold]

The debate will continue no matter what, because obviously it's not just about reality but about personal feelings.

[@juangabrieldelarosa3488]

Is simple, nothing inflicts more fear than faces Serral in a elimination key. Serral is the GOAT and nobody can change that, and if Serral was Korean he had won 5 GSL and Maru 3. Pd: Oliveiras Push yesterday in game 5 just 1 player in the history can stopped that and this person is the GOAT Serral

[@cmm3338]

regardless, serral looks, and has looked unbeatable for a longer period of time than rouge has. The level of play, how the game is actually being played you are totally forgetting about. Serral is playing far above someone like rouges level at his peak, and has for a while. WHO cares about the GOAT its subjective, the best player in the world right now, and that has been is Serral.. I dont see how anyone could legitimatly deny that fact without simply ignoring a lot of facets... Artosis, I think the weay you are putting this together such as "more tournements in europe".. k? these were all played online, koreans play in most of these european tournies, and beyond that simply totally ignoring the gameplay level is a bit strange... FearDragon is rough to listen too. He also knows very little.

[@game_jinx]

GOAT is not subjective. thats the point. and maru is no where near a goat

[@momoaa]

​@@game_jinxclearly it is subjective if arty can just discount all the tourneys that dont suit his world view or arguement

[@rnf123]

Disagree that Feardragon is rough to listen to and knows little. He is a student of the game and knows a lot.

[@cmm3338]

@@rnf123 maybe it was over zealous, I think he misses a lot of calls, and makes the wrong ones more times than not. was too literal in my explanation. point stands.

[@ahejleira5654]

Serral destroys everyone in SC2. Artosis: Yeah but not korean, so rogue better. Also comparing Effort to Serral is just ignorant.

[@calla211]

I feel bad driving traffic to such a goober debate, but you should trust Artosis' opinion on the GOAT debate as much as you trust his emotional stability during his Broodwar streams. Also, comical for this guy that has essentially abandoned SC2 for YEARS or had it on the backburner to farm content/clicks when it's convenient. Used to be a big fan--got enlightened.

[@ArtosisTV]

Peak moron. Good riddance loser.

[@johankustonen5329]

I came across this video because I'm a huge Serral fan. He's a local lad and naturally that also plays into this. However I do like the arguments you present. Being the best at something doesn't necessarily make you the GOAT - I agree with that. I also don't like the vitriol in some of the comments because while opinions may be different I dislike the tone some people seem to take - trying to dismiss your points by basically going "You're defining it wrong!" or just jeering away. That being said - I think Serral is the GOAT. I don't have any extra arguments to present besides all the ones that have been said. I'm a fan and it's really hard to sway my opinion even with a pretty solid argument about the definition of what GOAT means. Maybe the one argument I find most compelling is: If you keep beating the competition - shouldn't that actually mean you are better than the competition? If someone who isn't considered the GOAT consistently wins against the one that IS considered to be one... Shouldn't that mean more than any number of tournament victories regardless of the tournament? Sure, Serral has no GSL victories but he consistently wins against the ones that do. This includes Rogue. If you consistantly win against the GOAT. Shouldn't that make you the GOAT?

[@Joh00226]

I mean Rouge dident even got quertfinals in Dallas. Serral dont have competions in goat debate.

[@dimitriuss]

Artosis' personal vendetta against serral is wild. Heres a thought. I guarantee if rogue had just beat maru 4-0 in the DH finals, Arty would absolutely be doubling down on his opinion seeing that result.

[@ArtosisTV]

Peak stupidity

[@dimitriuss]

@@ArtosisTV I'll wear that response like a badge of honor my canadian brother.

[@xpotion7686]

Serral is the greatest weekend tournament player of all time. Granted i think he would also win a GSL if he ever tried, then he would have a title Rogue could never get "Royal Roader"

[@ejzhuxhl3857]

I want Serral to keep winning tournaments for 10 more years and witness when he becomes GOAT for Artosis.

[@game_jinx]

youre actually a bit on target

[@jiminianmc]

but he will never be cause he'll never play in the gsl lulw

[@kriss8256]

Just ask Rogue who is the goat, i bet he would go for Serral. Rogue has been the Goat of this game maybe until 2022 but now it is Serral. Just like Djokovic became the Goat of Tennis recently.

[@tigonridge]

Maru says it's Rogue, so Rogue would probably say it's Maru. However, Rogue has in the past admitted to zerg being OP (pre-nerfs), so I think he might be more honest than that. Edit: Imo, Djokovic is not only the GOAT for his tennis prowess, but also for standing up for his principles against the oppressive, authoritarian, and discriminatory Australian regime. Serral is the GOAT for all the obvious reasons that I'm too lazy to list.

[@kriss8256]

@@tigonridge 100% agree

[@YoshiKirishima]

I think to help illustrate Artosis's distinction between GOAT and best player, imagine if sOs won a 4th and 5th World Championship. Even if we know he isn't "as good" of a player overall, for example he never won a GSL, has a weak macro game, much lower winrates, much less premiere wins, he would likely be considered the GOAT for having achieved something so insanely "great", something that inspires and gives you a feeling of wonder. It is not just about pure skill and statistics. That would be the Best player of all time.

[@mistervanderveer]

Serral is the goat, just accept it already. I do get Artosis' point where he essentially says sure Serral has goat potential, but he just isnt there YET and rogue is. Like he said before: _every match Serral wins brings him closer to becoming the goat._

[@joeydennis7834]

2 of Rogue's 4 GSL wins were during covid. Stop being intellectually dishonest Daniel.

[@tonyphelps6723]

how many more wins does serral need using arty's logic?

[@game_jinx]

3-4 globals / premiere id say

[@BlackwidowGG]

a GSL

[@LoverDino]

He has to win the tournaments that Arty cares about. When he wins the massive tournaments he does, those don't matter because only the tournaments Arty cares about matter.

[@kmurphy0620]

I'd say he uses a most accomplished version of GOAT instead of the best player. Without GSLs it probably would take another 5 years of winning everything else to catch up with Rogue's GSL wins assuming Rogue doesn't win more GSL wins.

[@availabl3account]

He needs GSL wins not, same tourneys with same people. Why it is so hard to listen to the man?

[@keagancollins3243]

Can;t be GOAT if you've never been bonjwa, Rogue has never been bonjwa. Rogue will never be GOAT

[@game_jinx]

clueless

[@ArtosisTV]

Untrue on all counts.

[@keagancollins3243]

@@ArtosisTV of course you would think that 🤡

[@dew9103]

Flash has never been bonjwa guys

[@bigtruck1838]

Serral is the goat.... wiped the floor with maru, roge wasnt even around 😂

[@philipsangalang5077]

Head to Head matchup records should count when both are in their prime. Head to Head wouldn't matter if one is an old timer about to retire, but it's not the case here.

[@The_Independant_Pit]

It's sad Arty, you're too dismissive of arguments, Serral is dominating on international event since 2018. GSL is opened and is probably harder to win then many of the other tournaments but if Rogue can' rise semi constantly to win global event where Serral is present he is a bongwa not a GOAT... Also Serral has positive records against any Koreans in Career, that is no Bongwa but GOAT criteria... If Rogue rise against and wins the next Global events or 2 he definitely will be, nit currently... Sorry

[@erikw9233]

hold on... in what world does lebron beat mj in a 1 on 1 .... lay off the drugs dan

[@bishudas240]

My head agrees with Arty, My heart knows Maru is actually GOAT because I think Terran is harder than other races. Thank you for all this entertainment. GL to Serral, Rogue, Maru and SC2.

[@Cody27]

I think its over simplifying to measure each win as the same. Its not like GSL is the end all be all tournament, Maru has won a ton of GSL's but that doesnt make him the goat. You can say one tournament is better or worse than another but the core fact is they arent the same. They require different things out of the players. Instead of being the goat its makes him a really really great/successful player with a glaring flaw (or insecurity) in their ability.

[@floydbarber7528]

i cant remember that scarlett didnt play in NA tournaments while she was in korea playing in gsl.

[@KungSaanKaPoMasaya]

He

[@HendrikGermishuizen-ed7uk]

Artosus. I still think your strong enough to give flash and snow ; a Wake up. Call..

[@Kscliffe88]

If Serral went to compete in GSL and took it at seriously as he possibly could, what do you think would happen? Also, how many GSL victories would it take for you to consider Serral the GOAT? Great video. Enjoying this discussion

[@NotSoSimple741]

Modern GSL isn't the same GSL from 5 years ago. It's a shell of it's former self.

[@availabl3account]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda not gonna cut it. Like ByuN is 10 at micro but he is like 7 in many areas. Serral is 8 in many aspects, 9 in some but not 10 at anything(maybe 10 at reading the opponents position at a given time)

[@Kscliffe88]

@@availabl3account what does this have to do with GSL?

[@Kscliffe88]

@@NotSoSimple741100% agree. Would that mean Serral could never be a true G.O.A.T because GSL is not in it's prime anymore?! Where are we going with this xD

[@BlackwidowGG]

The people that believe maru is the GOAT usually have the argument that zerg has been overpowered for a long time. Otherwise you can't take that comparison seriously. The only argument that needs to be settled really is how much does a GSL weigh, because it's clear Artosis values this a lot more than most, and with that weight, it makes a lot of sense bringing Rogue to GOAT status. Both "sides" have good arguments, and so long as tournaments are weighed differently by people no one is gonna change the mind of another. It's not like people haven't looked at the data..

[@ArtosisTV]

Does anybody value HSC higher than GSL Code S?

[@bsidebg]

​@@ArtosisTV No, but you're literally showing in the video ( 11:00 ) tournaments that matter more and still not counting them in the incomplete comparison where you only include "TSL9, 3x HSC, DH Dallas" vs "4 GSLs". Let's actually count the whole list of Serral: 1. 2018 GSL vs the world 2. 2018 WCS Global finals 3. 2019 GSL vs the world 4. IEM Katowice 2022 5. TSL9 6. ESL Masters 2023 Summer 7. IEM Katowice 2024 + 3 HSC that matter less than GSL. ^ 7 or 10 total. + the winrates vs GOAT contenders, which matter when talking about GOATs. I absolutely agree they don't matter vs "randoms" who are not contenders for GOAT. + winrates vs all Koreans/strongest players More exhaustive list of Rogue: 1. 4x GSL 2. 2017 WCS Global Finals 3. IEM Katowice 2020 ^ 6 total If we're being honest, it's close, but the stats show that Serral is consistently one head above someone who yes, can be considered the GOAT if Serral wasn't in the race.

[@momoaa]

​@@ArtosisTVthinly veiled strawman to "cleverly" avoid actually responding to a pretty reasonable opinion that isnt even disagreeing with you, while refusing to reply to all the comments attacking your clearly biased opinion on the value of different tourneys. (Who would have guessed the ex GSL caster thinks every other non premier tourney that isnt GSL is completely worthless). Speaking of GSL casters, its honeslty cringe listening to state and tasteless during GSL, them feeling the need to regurgitate how awesome and next level prep tourneys are and what and insane extra level of skill it involves. Like yeah, its harder, no doubt, but they werent droning on about it every cast untill you started on your anti serral tyrade. So thanks for lowering the quality of that, i guess, it really needed it after the quality dip it already recieved when they traded you out for state.

[@janbiel900]

12:10 Strawman, he doesnt say its a single variable analysis (prize money) he is saying prize money is of course a factor that on average plays a role in how competitive the field will be.

[@dontstrawmanmebro]

I personally think earning GOAT status is when a player goes through numerous different generations of meta. Rogue born 1992 vs Serral born 1998. I personally think the 6 year difference says more. I do think younger players adapt onto newer meta's faster than older players (because of neuroplasticity) which because of this reason, I'd AGREE on Artosis on why thinks Rogue is the goat. That doesn't mean I'm dismissing Serral but it's a matter of time to see "when" Serral can grab that title but then the cycle continues when other younger players come into the scene. Aside from the whole Rogue vs Serral: I do notice this phenomenon in all kinds of areas such as arts, music, business, etc. It does remind me of the saying: "can't teach an old dog, new tricks." So when you do see a player keep adapting through the meta shifts, I think it's really inspiring. Take Faker from League of Legends, he constantly has to keep up with champion changes, meta changes and stay in shape. Meanwhile younger players in the new scene have a easier time adapting which creates the whole crowd of the anti faker fans. Because it is true that other players excel over Faker. Although just watching Faker from when you first encounter him until now, it's just more amazing than a new comer. But yeah, that's just like.. my opinion.

[@rahawala]

Fear Dragon sounded super defensive in his response vid, throwing out all kinds of random, irrelevant data. He should have just said "Serral = GOAT, obvi!"...would have been more credible.