Is steel real? What makes a hardtail "supple"? Comparing steel, aluminum, and carbon frame materials

[@hardtailparty]

Carbon is an exciting material for hardtail riders, and builders are learning how to maximize its ride characteristics all the time. It can be made overly stiff (like the Specialized Fuze Carbon), or super flexy (like the Trek supercaliber and the SC Chameleon). My full-suspension bikes utilize carbon leaf springs, and they design flex into these carbon leaf springs to provide a unique, tuned ride experience. I think we're going to be seeing a lot of exciting things with carbon in the future (and hopefully a decrease in price). Titanium, when done right, can feel just like steel, at a lighter weight. But you gotta pay to play. Ti is expensive and difficult to weld, and ti frames are NOT cheap. Titanium also doesn't rust, so you don't need to paint it. Steel (chromolly) can have a wide variety of ride characteristics depending on the frame design. If not treated, it will rust. It can be made into bikes that are quite light, but lately we've been seeing some really heavy steel frames, because companies know steel sells at the moment, regardless of how well it's built. A well-built steel frame is a thing of beauty. I wonder why steel full suspension bikes are popular? I'd rather have aluminum, as it's cheaper, stiffer, doesn't rust, and lighter. With a full suspension, you don't need the supple feel of steel, as the shock does that... Aluminum is typically the cheapest material for frames. It can't be bent or shaped quite as easily as steel or carbon, but with the right designer, you can still get a fantastic ride quality out of an aluminum bike. However, that's the excption rather than the rule. Most aluminum bikes end up being overly stiff. As a material, aluminum can't return back to its shape as easily as steel or ti. Think of a paperclip that you bend back and forth. You can only bend it so many times before it breaks. When bent like a paper clip, aluminum breaks sooner than steel and ti. For more education on the topic of frame materials, see this: www.bigshark.com/articles/which-frame-material-is-the-best-pg531.htm

[@PascalKolkman]

I still like my californian 1995 MARIN BEAR VALLEY Special Edition double butted Chro-mo STEAL tange tubing MounTainBike, The SE edition is lighter than the standard non se edition. This MARIN MTB frame is comparable to MARIN's '90 top model the Pine and the Eldridge grade. Frame size 52 cm seat tube and 59 cm top tube is rather large. I agree in what you say about the triangle angle of a frame also determines suppleness. In old school MTB's the geometrie ; the triangles were larger, the top tube was more horizontal , the head tube and seat tube were longer than those same tube angles & lengths in modern compact sloping frames, allowing more natural flex in those old school larger tubing frame. Also the 750 gram lightweight MARIN ROCKSTAR FRONT FORK in size 1 - 1/8 " wich can also absorb little road vibrations allows me to ride this steal MTB as a rigid hard tail on single tracks without a heavier front suspension fork. I don't know much alloy frames wich can by ridden that comfortably with a rigid front fork anymore. Also my vintage 1985 chro-mo steal GIANT SPEEDER LITE race bike frame connected by lugs has a thin bent steal tube front FORK wich does an amazing job in absorbing road bumbs even with small 25mm race tires those thin tube steal front fork remains comfortable and is lasting 35 years so far without cracking. So if you would ask me what material is the best for building a comfortable durable rigid front fork? I would choose bent steal ones over oversized aluminum and probably over carbon too, if weight is no big deal.

[@dannyh3335]

Thoughts about the Banshee Paradox V3? They claim "engineered compliance" Trying to decide between that or a 2020 Fuse frame build up.. so i can run 27.5 or 29.. Thanks for another good video!

[@hardtailparty]

I haven't ridden one yet, but it looks fantastic. That's exactly what I mean about an aluminum frame having built-in compliance. Check out that hollow seatstay bridge! I'm totally assuming based off looks, but I'd be willing to bet that frame doesn't beat you up. Most hardtail companies market them as "compliant", but their frame design is really unique. I'll see if I can get ahold of one to demo on the channel. I've always liked banshee's design philosophy. I need to demo the new fuse. The price isn't amazing, but the bike looks like a big upgrade from the old one

[@hardtailparty]

Hey, good news. I'll be getting a paradox v3 to review soon. Stay tuned.

[@dannyh3335]

I love the tinted/smoke clear finish on the banshee.. Thanks, will keep a lookout for your review!

[@tommyestrada6464]

Have you tried the Guerrilla Gravity Peadalhead? I've heard good things.

[@hardtailparty]

Ive never ridden one. I reached out to them and hoped to get one in for review. We'll see if I'm able to get one.

[@velophile5790]

Great insights!

[@chrispalmer1773]

Oooooo a middlechild battle, that should be interesting. As far as frame material, ride what you can afford and what feels good, in my opinion

[@justinl7640]

Are you going to review the marin San Quentin 3 ? It would be cool if you did;-)

[@randyhou8522]

What a great talk on frame materials! I love that you emphasized frame and tubing design, something I knew about but maybe not prioritizing enough. Also rider weight which I didn't think about. I've thought about this topic alot when I was researching my hardtail purchase. (ended up with a steel Stanton Slackline, which I love and will likely keep forever) One thing I would add is that even though frame design is probably the most important factor, there are inherent qualities to the materials that allow for more or less suppleness. For instance, comparing aluminum to steel, steel is much stronger and more resilient (able to flex and still maintain structural integrity), giving it more potential for springiness. This is why springs of all kinds are mostly made of steel, and not aluminum, because once aluminum flexes, the integrity of the metal is compromised, not so with steel. For this reason, aluminum frames have to have a certain degree of stiffness to ensure that it maintains structural integrity. Therefore if the frame is built well, I would venture to say that using steel would give you greater potential to build suppleness into the frame vs aluminum. I believe this is even truer for titanium, so you can have a very supple AND strong frame using titanium. Love the channel, keep up the great content and hope it takes off for you.

[@jonmarshall1502]

Thanks for such an interesting topic. I rode a 26” steel mountain bike for years and still bring it out on occasion. I believed in the steel is real ethos, then I discovered 27.5+ hardtail bikes, hmmm. I’ve evolved from a size too small alloy Honzo (that I absolutely loved), then I rode a correct sized alloy Fuse. For me it’s perfect, and I experiment with air pressure in the tyres to suit the conditions. Big tyres and hardtails with good geometry are just about the best thing I’ve ever ridden in mountain biking.

[@tarstarkusz]

Steel is much tougher than aluminum. This is a physical property of steel. Steel is also stronger than aluminum.

[@vespacheck]

I had a 2021 27.5 fuse, I was disappointed, I don't think I gave it enough time to get used to the slacker geometry, and the size of it. I've got a 29er now as it was cheap, and it feels more responsive than the fuse, but more stable at speed. My previous 2011 cube xc 26" was far smoother than the fuse over the bumps. The fuse felt big and soft, but didn't have the grip, handling or comfort I was expecting from the big wheels and tyres, and modern suspension and geometry.

[@theblishknovk]

​@@vespachecki have a medium 2021 fuse 27.5+ and love it. I am 5'9" after breaking back, long torso short legs. I test rode a large too. Felt like a limo in comparison for me.

[@pmorleck]

This makes a lot of sense and such an interesting topic. For the last 3 years I have been riding a Salsa Timberjack Aluminum and I thought it was completely normal that I was getting bounced around on it (for reference I'm a bigger ride +250lbs). But this week I have been demoing a Surly Karate Monkey and I never knew a hardtail could be so comfortable. In this case I'm digging Steel.

[@solitaryrefinement6787]

...because steel is real. 😎 I've sworn off carbon & aluminum forever. Now, I'm only going to ride steel. I'll try titanium to see if it's worthy of the praise it gets, but stainless steel frames are just as durable and a lot less to build up and are stiffer and more comfortable. Titanium is going to have to pull a rabbit out of the hat to get me to jump onto that bandwagon.

[@tjay_mac]

Awesome video as always! 👌 I cheaped out last year bought an aggressive (or what everyone now calls, “hardcore hardtail”) aluminum hardtail, Marin San Quentin 2. I put 2.8 size on that bike with Pike fork then I took it to Santa Cruz Mountains. 😐 That frame was stiff AF! It felt like an over inflated plus tire and I was bouncing all over the place! Couple of months later, I bought a Guerilla Gravity Pedalhead and moved the components over using the same tire psi. Took it back to Santa Cruz Mountains and, wow! 😲 That frame is so supple. You can really feel how the rear stays are absorbing those stings especially when I do some of the drops (not to flat) and the landings were so smooth! I couldn’t believe it! I also have a 2010 Niner MCR with Crest wheelset. That bike is nice and supple but its more of an XC bike. Other bikes are the On-One 456 Summer Season & 45650b. Those bikes are also supple but not as supple as the Niner. Definitely not like the Pedalhead. I did not expect to hear that Chameleon is supple. I know some aluminum are supple. I read the Nukeproof Scout is more supple than some steel frames but the Chameleon? 🤔

[@hardtailparty]

I almost bought one too, but the stack was way too low for me. I felt super hunched over, and I had to side up to a large to feel right on it. It felt super awkward to me. Even though it was 60% off, and it was worth the price just for the parts, I passed on it

[@hardmtnbiker]

Great overview and great explanations on the frame materials and build details. Personally I’ve spent many years owning and riding aluminum, steel and Ti hardtail’s. I haven’t been on some of the newer hydro-formed aluminum or high end carbon hardtail’s. I completely agree that “steel is real” is just a branding thing and I also think high end Reynolds,Tange and True Temper doesn’t mean that those steel frames are going to feel better, it’s truly dependent upon other factors like you mentioned. I’ve owned 2 Sir9 Reynolds 853 frames, both full rigid. The older had a steel fork and it was real supple feeling. The newer had the new Reynolds DBZ steel and a carbon fork. It was much stiffer. Last year I bought the new Esker Hayduke frame, not the new Sir9, it felt supple but not as much flex as the original Sir9. Anyway, obviously the Geo and build dynamics play a big part of the feel. I like my Ti frames but that’s another story.

[@hardtailparty]

Spot on, I agree 100% I rode the heyduke last year. I think it'd s decent platform for bikepacking, but as a trail bike it didn't really wow me. It wasn't as supple as I was hoping either.

[@jasonstella74]

Well done... 👍🏻I ridden all bikes in all materials.... Carbon, Steel, Aluminum, Ti they all ride differently.. My favorite Aluminum HT is my Schwinn HG it fast and but completely compliant. I got Easton UltraLight Tube Yeti and Rocky Vertex Both ate fast but brutal. Ti Voodoo is a dream supple and stiff. Rocky 853 tubes bike is awesome... All retro HT rides...

[@charlesholland6851]

I love my Timberjack. I would love to compare it to the Chamaleon!

[@hardtailparty]

Me too. The timberjack is one heck of a bargain. AND it has regular headset cups, so you could technically run an angleset with it (unlike the chameleon)

[@mellissanash7517]

There is also the new Salsa Rangefinder that looks fun and slightly more budget Timberjack now that the Deore model is no more.

[@charlesholland6851]

Mellissa Nash learn something new everyday. i’m going to look that up

[@hardtailparty]

@@charlesholland6851 bummer, it has a steeper head angle and longer chainstays than the timberjack. Should be great for bikepacking, but I have a suspicion the timberjack is more fun on trails. Unfortunately it also has a qr rear axle. :( Killer price point though.

[@mellissanash7517]

That one was like announced last week.

[@alexw3246]

This is gold! I've never learned that much about frames in such a short time.

[@listom122]

All my frames are steel, but it’s attributed to the reputation and artistic properties of a reputable builder, in my case, Cameron Falconer, who builds frames to specifically ride to your style and body type. Both my Falconer frames are baby smooth and never a disappointment to ride. As you reference, its all about the builder and experience behind the art of frame building. Trade off is cost, but 100% worth every penny if you enjoy and love the ride quality.

[@pe3117]

I ride a Merida big 9 6000 2019 carbon frame and it has the “flex stay” system that flex the rear of the frame...you can really feel it and is very supple

[@hardtailparty]

Awesome, I love that concept! I am excited for the future of carbon hardtails. I think we can finally get light weight AND a great ride quality with engineering like this. Thanks for sharing your experience, I'd love to try one out

[@Chorge1972]

Can’t wait how the Switch9er 4130 I just ordered will feel coming from a Slackline 535 Gen2

[@andrewtanner8366]

Thoughts on Surly's Karate Monkey? I'd be interested to hear how you feel this stacks up from a stiffness perspective to other frames on the market.

[@hardtailparty]

I haven't ridden one long enough offroad to make a judgment call there. Sorry.

[@angel-leonhontiveros4816]

I've been riding a 2017 karate monkey almost going a year now (it's my only bike atm), and it's set up fully rigid in 29er mode. Only other hardtail I've tested that comes close to the feel of it is a commencal meta ht. I imagine it will be more supple when i get the 27.5 x 3 wheelset on it. I hope the 2cents helps out. It's a little more challenging getting access to bikes here in manila, unlike over there. 🤙

[@JenkinsB]

Not the slackest, 68 deg I think. HP likes the slackeyssssss

[@monocogenit1]

I have a 2019 karate monkey. I like it and it will prob last forever, but it's pretty stiff and doesn't seem to turn to well, I think due to a pretty slack head tube, but that seems to be the norm nowadays. Like slacker is better.

[@davidgeiger8620]

Hi Steve. I bought a nordest bardino 2 frame and built it up. You were right with the geometry of the cheaptrick. it didnt realy fit witch reach and stack. now i am happy,i found my bike,a steel nordest bardino 2, fantastic!!!

[@eliaspszwaro9233]

Been looking at what kind of frame to get because be and my dad are building a hard tail. I was trying to figure out what material to get and have been looking at Santa Cruz chameleons and some chromag and knolly steel bike. After what you said about the chameleon I think I will be getting that

[@trishaleaver3581]

Carbon hockey sticks. They can be stiff for heavier stronger players or super flexible for lighter players.

[@chameleonpogono]

Perfect how you basically say how each person will see a bike different. I had multiple people tell me, a while back, to not try carbon frames cause they are stiffer.. Also, 29's would be better for me. I can understand why, though, knowing my condition. However, carbon feels, in general, better on my joints. Also, 27.5 feels better. Oh, I was recommended longer frames. So, I like the opposite of what people suggest. I have a hardtail background since the late 80's. I'm used to a "smaller" feeling bike that I can throw around. Wouldn't mind trying some hardtail bikes and see how they feel. So, go out and try bikes before you buy! Glad I did!

[@theblishknovk]

You 100% are the guy who should be building frames!

[@79Tipene1]

All my bikes r high end steel full suspension and hardtail bikes never go back I hate aluminium and carbon

[@lastname1386]

I ride a trek Stache 7, and i love it!!, and i am a pipe fitter as well, i use to weld light speed bicycles when i was laid off from a shut down

[@markbuttery2790]

Very interesting observations and reasons involved with flex , suppleness etc. When you also throw in the equation of tyre size 2.25 - 3.00 this completely changes everything , then throw in Cush core which i found a game changer , does the world become round or flat lol

[@hardtailparty]

Agreed. I feel that the wider your tires are, the more you can get away with an overly stiff frame. There's still a difference, but even a stiff aluminum frame feels decent with 27.5x3.0 tires at 15 psi. One thing you can't tune out with tires, however, is the way a jolt travels across the frame when you hit something sharp.

[@markbuttery2790]

@@hardtailparty Yes Steve you have a good point, there are so many variables it opens up a can of worms, but your original diagnosis is spot on. I have a Norco 2020 Torrent 29r , the Cush core that i put in absorbed alot of shock and jolts, to the extent felt like a mini suspension !, or it could be just a placebo as it costs alot and i needed to justify this in my mind.

[@hardtailparty]

That new Norco looks sweet. I'd love to try one. Cush core makes such a difference on a hardtail, especially in rocky terrain! It's definitely not placebo, it makes a real difference. Tire pressure, rim width, rim material/build, and tire casing makes a huge impact too.

[@gedrot2486]

Any opinions/experiences on the Production Privee Shan? It's been my dream bike frame for a while now and I'm curious what you think of a steel frame that's designed to actively utilize the materials flex-ability.

[@hardtailparty]

It's been a dream bike of mine as well, but sadly I've never seen one in the flesh. There aren't many in the states. A lot of steel frame manufacturers claim that they build compliance into their frames, but I haven't felt that those claims are true in a lot of cases. I'd want to ride it for myself and see if I can feel the compliance or not. It sure looks nice though. I'd love to try a moxie pipedream too... And a Sterling... And some of ragley's latest bikes, and the new steel orange, and a kingdom, and the list goes on and on. The UK seems to have a ton of boutique steel Hardtail manufacturers. Even when a frame is made from Reynolds 853, for example, it doesn't mean it's guaranteed to ride in a certain way. It's just another way to market and bring to light who the tubing came from. Reynolds makes fantastic tubing, but that's just part of the equation when it comes to frame design.

[@dummkompf]

I want to see a comparison of a titanium timberjack to the aluminum one

[@hardtailparty]

Unfortunately I don't think I'll get the change to ride a ti one anytime soon, they're tough to find. I would guess it's a bit more flexy and supple. I'll be able to compare an aluminum rsd middle child to a steel and to soon.

[@halnogaies1256]

This one video solidifies your position as the HardTail whisperer.

[@jasonw7053]

I was looking at the NS bikes eccentric cromo I wonder how that frame is. I have a dirt jumper from NS bikes and it's steel and feels great but it's hard to say if their 29'' hardtail mtb would be good too

[@hardtailparty]

I haven't ridden one yet. It's bon my list of bikes to try.

[@lifelivedfuller2388]

My Esker Hayduke has the right amount of flex built into it. I love it ❤ hardtailparty have you demoed one?

[@hardtailparty]

I'm glad you like yours. Yes, I demoed one but I didn't like it. I scrapped the review video for it because it was mostly negative. I agree, the frame didn't feel harsh, but the geometry made it ride pretty boring to me. But... if you love it, that's all that matters. I think it might make an interesting bikepacking bike. And keep in mind, just because I don't like a bike doesn't mean someone else won't love it.

[@ph3590]

@@hardtailparty booo negative reviews are the bestest

[@Potz4pizza]

@@hardtailparty Overforking it may have changed you mind a little (and depends on what chainstay length it was running). Currently running it with 130 mm travel (and slammed chainstay), and it's so fun to flick around and climbs like a dream. Heard the same from dudes running 140. Material and quality wise, the frame is Ace.

[@enrico8655]

Greetings from Germany for doing this High quality content!

[@fkncarl9302]

I ride an 11 year old aluminum hardtail (SE Filth Flyer) and I don't ever feel beat up after the ride (from the bike). I really don't have anything to compare it to other than my kids new aluminum bike(Co-Op DRT 1.1). But I am also a weirdo that rides a slightly undersized dirt jumper as an "all mountain" bike.

[@hardtailparty]

My hardtail feels a lot like a dirt jumper with a dropper. I totally get it.

[@fkncarl9302]

@@hardtailparty A dropper is definitely on my list but i need to swap my 1x9 to at least an 11 speed. Havasu trails are really pedaly.

[@johnykryll]

Really useful vid, thankyou

[@robertstan2349]

It's 'real' because it doesn't have a best before date

[@lbanezjs1000]

what i took away form this is you odn tknow unless you go try it!

[@ericcontreras8863]

Lots of knowledge here. Good video, very informative.

[@RideAlongside]

Steel can be welded by anyone anywhere if it needs to be fixed. Would love to see you weld something together. Maybe a HP logo that could be purchased?

[@hardtailparty]

I only have a mig welder, no Tig. It'd be fun to try my hand at a framebuilding class one day though.

[@RideAlongside]

hardtail party you should do it. I think it would be a good new frontier for you to explore.

[@mackturtle82]

Please get your hands on a Timberjack! I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and the Karate Monkey.

[@hardtailparty]

I'd love to try both of those someday.

[@smithfamily710]

I am guilty of the "steel is real", the last time l rode a aluminum hardtail was back in the early 2000s and yes that bike was very xc orientated and just rough as guts to ride. So after that experience l tried a steel ht and the was similar in geometry and instantly felt comfortable. 3 steel hardtails later and still happy. Oh l do have a carbon xc hardtail sitting in the shed, very stiff to ride only good for racing and l don't race anymore. Great video Steve, l must admit l never really put much thought into tube thickness between the different size bikes. And yes with frame geometry completely different to the late 90s and early 2000s l can understand how type A bike might be different to type B bike. Keep up the great work mate 👍

[@hardtailparty]

I had a similar experience with aluminum frames that beat me up in the past. I love a good steel frame, but I've had a tough time finding great steel frames lately.

[@drmoynihan]

@@hardtailparty What about the Pole Chromoly Taival?

[@kikoy08]

Steel is still real 🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

[@wallyedmonds]

Debating a steel middlechild or an aluminum one 🤔 there local for me so thinking of them .

[@johnnyd614]

That steel MC looks awesome, but is built like it could go through a wall (or a mountain). I’m curious how the MC Aluminum vs the MC Steel differ in their ride?

[@bassw1758]

Fat tire bike has to be steel.

[@tompike2628]

I’m very happy with my Ritchey ultra seams very balanced and responsive I’m running 27.5 2.6

[@shawnalexander1305]

Do you have any experience with the Marin steel frames? Like the pine mountain?

[@hardtailparty]

I used to own both a pine mountain and a team marin in the late 90s. I think they had Columbus tubing. I loved those bikes! They were one of the few bikes that didn't beat me up as a light rider. Sadly, I haven't ridden the modern pine MTN other than a parking lot test. Sadly, Marin doesn't bring their hardtails to demo events. It's a shame, because the price point of the pine mountain is amazing and I'd love to try one.

[@simongavazza5377]

@@hardtailparty what do you think about production privee shan 917 27?

[@hardtailparty]

@@simongavazza5377 I haven't ridden one. It sure looks like a cool bike. I've wanted to ride one for years, but never had the chance. I'd definitely want to ride one before ordering it though.

[@hardtailparty]

Hey Shawn, you're in luck. Thanks to your recommendation, I decided to reach out to Marin and see if I could get a Pine Mountain on review. They'll be sending one later this month. I'm excited to put it through its paces. I'd definitely recommend the pine mtn 2 over the pine mtn 1. The pine mtn 1 has a qr axle with 141mm hubs, neither of which is ideal.

[@alanhart6407]

hardtail party really looking forward to your Pine Mtn review! Really appreciate your reviews!

[@ericliebert5260]

I understand how a tube flexes, but exactly does a triangle flex? I like the discussion keep the hardtail alive!

[@hardtailparty]

You won't see a triangle flex much, but imagine a triangle where all 3 sides were a mile long. No matter the material, it would still flex. The same principles apply to smaller triangles.

[@evancole2880]

Materials (any) are like springs, really really stiff springs. So imagine a triangle made of springs instead of tubes, with pivots at the nodes. Now in addition you have to think about the stiffness coming from the weld joints as well, resisting the rotational flex (think about a 3-bar rear suspension vs a 4-bar, the 3 bar flexes at the rear joint, the 4 bar actually has a pivot)

[@patcosgrave8761]

So much sense here. Good work

[@notice_fpv]

Have you been able to do that Chameleon/Timberjack shootout? I'm very interested in both of these bikes for '23!

[@AbrahamBarberi]

I just purchased a Cotic Soul 5th Gen frame (2018), and I really like it. Do you have recommendations, insight or opinions on this particular frame? Thanks

[@anthonyharris483]

I have a Rocky Mountain ALTITUDE T.O that is incredibly supple made from Tange Ultimate Superlight tubing. I'll never give it up

[@VelkePivo]

Nice. I’ve always had (in the past) steel hardtails and just thought it was a given that aluminum was harsher. Good to learn better.

[@blackthanos914]

I've owned quite a few production and custom steel hardtails. Both 26er and 29er. My custom Ted Wojcik steel 29er is easily the best bike I've ever ridden. I initially went steel then custom steel because I'm 6'2 and 240lbs. I was flexing frames and breaking chains like crazy. Especially aluminum frames. My Ted has a double butted Columbus Life main triangle with Columbus triple butted chainstays that Ted said were exceptionally rare to acquire so he recommended them. The bike was built for east coast woods riding so its aggressive with a relatively short wheelbase. Its both responsive and smooove. Just an absolutely beast on the trails! Had it since 2006 and its still perfect for ME.

[@monocogenit1]

I had a gunnar single speed about 5-10 years ago, it was Reynolds 853, hand made piece of art and was the nicest and smoothest riding bike I ever owned. I now have a surly karate monkey, it rides like a brick compared to my sweet old Gunnar. Also, why is it so cool to have super slack headtube angles?

[@jimbodini100]

I rode a Jamis Dragon slayer for 5 years and was a nice ride , it was a large and I weigh 215. Also had an old Jamis Dragon but to small for me , that was a nice soft ride , 853 Reynolds tubing.

[@buggs9950]

My main ride is an On One 456evo steel hardtail that's stiff as anything, supple it ain't. In fact I had to put a softer seat on it.. My old DHR aluminium xc hardtail is so flexy/wobbly a mate of mine won't even ride it off road. I can sit on it with my feet on the floor and visibly flex the frame by just pushing on the bars! I like steel 'cos it's harder to damage and if I do do something silly I can weld repair it. But to be honest I really couldn't care less otherwise.

[@Coerced]

Real noticeable frame flex makes me friggin anxious though. I'm worried it'll break

[@madcapper6]

Kinda funny about the whole "steel is real" thing because I've always been a bit biased against steel. I grew up poor so that meant the bikes I rode were typically old 2nd hand low quality steel rust buckets. The first decent quality bike I ever had was aluminum and I guess the impression always stuck. Ever since I've pretty much shunned steel but my perceptions are changing.

[@AbrahamBarberi]

Very insightful video! Thanks

[@rinadan9234]

Would you recommend a banshee paradox for a 250lbs rider?

[@thwangsworld1123]

Steel is having a big renaissance at the moment with Reynolds and Columbus even now still developing profile and butting of tube's

[@a.drewwalker9662]

Hardtail words of wisdom, TY!

[@L4J20]

I’ve got a Chromag Wideangle on the way. I’m curious to see how it feels after riding my Diamondback Sync’r for the past year 🤔

[@hardtailparty]

I'm going out on a limb here, but I'd expect it to feel a good deal more compliant/supple. Chromag has an excellent reputation. Let us know what you notice. Geo will probably be the biggest difference.

[@evanbarnes9984]

I've got a Chromag Rootdown and absolutely love it! Has that awesome direct feeling of hardtails, but doesn't feel harsh either. I demoed both the Sync'r and the Sync'r pro, and they both felt like incredibly harsh rides to me. Both frames drove every little bump directly into my feet. The Rootdown feels much more supple. I get all the trail feedback I need and want without any of that harshness. I haven't had the bike for long yet, but I'm so stoked I went with Chromag

[@hardtailparty]

Good choice with the rootdown, it's a nice frame. I agree, the Syncr is a harsh riding hardtail.

[@L4J20]

hardtail party UPDATE: Been riding the Chromag Wideangle for several months in MidTN....I love this bike! I’ve noticed that it is more compliant/supple than the alloy Sync’r. I’ve noticed that it holds a line better and doesn’t get bucked around as much on chattery, rooty, rocky sections. I was a little skeptical about “steel is real” but in this case...it is 😃

[@norhlee8564]

Thanks for this vid, very informative

[@haverion2230]

what's your opinion on the On One Inbred 29er?

[@anthonyharris483]

I know what you are saying because my old Schwinn Homegrown feels very supple for an aluminum frame. I had a steel frame made from True temper ox platinum and was very stiff

[@thorstenbastian81]

which hardtail is in your opinion the best choice, from material and from the frame geo?

[@Chris-qd3oz]

Rode an Ally Dartmoor hornet and it was like riding a sledgehammer. On a CroMo Commencal now and it rides soooo much nicer, flex in the chainstays helps a lot. Both bikes made for the same kind of riding.

[@ExplosiveNotes]

Steel is definitely real... so is carbon, aluminium, titanium. Bike with frame from material, which is not real would be impossible to ride. :D

[@hardtailparty]

I like your style

[@solitaryrefinement6787]

Translation: You get what you pay for. The Brits seem to be investing a lot of time & craftsmanship into their resurgence of steel hardtails and at reasonable prices for boutique bikes that cost less than Chinese made aluminum big brand bikes.

[@hardtailparty]

In this case yes, but there are some spendy bikes out there that aren't better than the cheap ones.

[@solitaryrefinement6787]

@@hardtailparty Agree 1000%, but that's more the exception than the rule. 👍

[@arkoutarkout3654]

I was going to ask if your a welder I been recerching hardtail for about 5 weeks now and in the last week I got 80% of the questions I hand from your videos. The I'm on lockdown and can only search. I'm UA488 PF welder first thing I look at is the joint design and the weld

[@csparksnc1]

CHUMBA - my Stella is so choice don't know how they do it but it has all the feelings one loves in a steel rig - perfect SS for me - the Sendero looks super dope...

[@hardtailparty]

I've always wanted to try a chumba

[@charlie6432]

What’re some good steel frames you recommend off the top of your head? I see and know you’ve enjoyed your RSD MiddleChild.

[@joeltibbs8087]

I totally agree. my alloy hardtail rode stiffer than so many carbon ones.

[@anthonyharris483]

I love steel and some of the I've ridden were made from Tange Prestige/variants, True Temper Tt-lite, Columbus Cyber, Ritchey Super Logic and Reynolds 853. Having a bridgeless chainstay and monostay seatstays on one of them was quite nice.

[@toooldfortwowheels2048]

Makes me even more excited for my Pipedream Moxie!!!

[@hardtailparty]

That's a bike I've been wanting to try for a long time. I've heard great things about them.

[@roberdiscotres]

@@hardtailparty I just bought a mk3 moxie and can say it.s an incredible hardtail, very capable.

[@ludekrichter6049]

Thanks for the vid. Have you tried Ritchey Ultra? What is your opinion?

[@hardtailparty]

Not yet. I'd love to try one.

[@pcpwcail]

You bring up some good points, right now I'm trying to decide which way to go in terms of frame materials and whether or not it should be full squish or hardtail. I keep leaning to hardtail custom steel. I rode a bontrager for years before going to full suspension something about the simplicity of a hardtail keeps drawing me back

[@knarfis]

Ok, I am pretty much sold on the RSD MiddleChild (thanks to your videos and for RSD sponsoring you). It has everything I am really looking for. The only question is, Steel or Aluminum?? I ride the same terrain as you do here in Phoenix, but not as crazy as you. I am coming from an old school ('93) steel bike. Compliance is important for the rough terrain here. Thoughts?? You are an RSD guy and you ride the same environment.

[@hardtailparty]

I no longer ride for RSD, but I still love their bikes. Their steel MC isn't super supple. I haven't ridden the aluminum MC yet. The Ti MC is where it's at if you can afford it. Lighter, no rust, and nice and comfortable to ride.

[@ph3590]

Steve, I made a comment about the RSD Sergeant V3 being alloy, and how I wish it'd to be steel - maybe sparking this topic. I give a lot of credit to RSD's versatility - 275x3.8 and 29x3.0 on the same frame (Sarg v2 Ti) is awesome. My interest was not just "any" steel, but lightweight steel. I know lighter steel bikes ride better (if they aren't too flexy.) I'm right there with ya - I want to see more steel frames designed specifically with rider comfort in mind - especially bikes intended for bikepacking. Having ridden a lightweight (4.3lbs) alloy hardtail for that purpose, it just didn't do it - I missed steel (and suspension). It'd be interesting to see if 2020 Banshee Paradox (alloy) with it's "tuned for comfort" rear end improves any of that. Or if super-light alloy like the Specialized Chisel would ride any better. My guess is the Paradox probably rides like most alloy AM hardtails, and the Chisel like a roadbike (29x2.2 max tire eww). I think it's just better to say "lightweight steel is real."

[@hardtailparty]

It wasn't based on you, but I've heard about 20 other people make similar comments. The truth is, it's not just the weight of the steel that makes it ride nice. It's the frame design, the thickness of tubing, the way the joints are made, where the bracing is, etc., And steel doesn't have a corner on the market for supple frames. Be careful not to lump all alloy frames into the same category, and don't lump all steel frames into the same category either. Some feel great. Some dont. Stay tuned for the review of the banshee paradox.

[@sqd8r]

I'm so glad I ride solo, I never have the ego concerns raised about steel v. aluminum v. carbon. I know I cannot tell the difference, I'm not that sophisticated a rider. I just buy what I like. Great review.

[@hardtailparty]

I think you'd be surprised. A lot of people tell me they're not nuanced enough to pick up on the differences then they get a new bike and surprise themselves.

[@framboise5326]

I really appreciate your review.. I sold my (alloy) full suspension because I love climbing and the shock below my saddle was so inefficient.. however I want a supple bike I can descend with without the rear shock.. I do not hit super technical trails on my downhills and then realized that I did not need that rear shock. I'm glad I made the choice I did but I'm still on the market for a hardtail that will suite my needs. Haven't decided what is best for me (carbon vs steel vs alloy)... I'm a petit female rider.. have a carbon road bike that I love climbing with.. just not sure yet what would be best for me on the dirt

[@hardtailparty]

It sounds like you'd be a perfect candidate for my bike consultation service over on Patreon. If that's not in the budget, check out my free reviews over on Hardtailparty.com

[@jeffnogin7534]

Stanton slackline, just the best bike I've ever ridden, even compared to my Ibis ripmo. You could use terms like supple etc but really what makes it good is that you can follow people down techy rocky stuff who are on full sussers and smash down it with them. You know your on a hardtail, but you never feel out of control the frame takes enough of the hit that your not jarred and bumped off the pedals and it's just fun and really satisfying.

[@hardtailparty]

I've been hitting up Stanton to send me a slackline for review, but no word yet. I'd really like to try one.

[@bass-player.22]

You are so right you really need to test ride all bikes you are interested in if possible to really see how it feels to you and if it suits you and your riding style thank you for spelling this out for people to understand

[@yegmtb8377]

I hadn't a clue any of this stuff very informative thank you. I ride an aluminum HT xl frame one of Norco's 2018 models I'm not sure what I'm suppose to feel, to myself it feels nimble and quick compared to when i rode bikes in the mid 90s to 2002 those bikes felt heavy n hard pedaling at times. I am interested in the Norco torrent you rode a while back that is the kind of bike I'd like to ride. 👍

[@thebackforty939]

yeah i have a chromag chromemoly thats just sooo rough for general riding here in las Vegas for our gravel/rocky stuff.... i have ridden it with both 29r and 27.5+ but i got a replacement frame from marin thats aluminum and wonder if its worth building or not.

[@hardtailparty]

Chromags are pretty stiff.

[@BigWaveDaveO]

Great Vid. Nothing beats riding a bike to see if you like it. - Can you review the Specialized Fuse Comp or base 27.5. As you know, companies don't like to demo hardtails. Being a 250lb (fat old man), I want a hardtail to simplify my life on the trail and I don't want to worry about a rear shock. I'll use my legs and line choice to get down the hill.

[@hardtailparty]

The new 2020 fuse looks a lot better than the old one. I don't love the old one. It beats you up, and the geo is still dated. Not super fun to ride. The new one looks fun. I'll see if I can get my hands on one for a review.

[@abel2cycle989]

No questions. Just a comment. I rode my first black diamond trail yesterday. I came across a hiking couple with a baby, who said they were mountain bikers, and the guy told me, he couldn't believe I was riding this trail with a mountain bike, and doing it on a hardtail! 😁🤙... yea a few people had their mind blown seeing ride this trail on a hardtail. I had a blast on this trail, but way too many hikers... I just had to share that.✌😎

[@hardtailparty]

🤘

[@MIHALMICHAEL]

Something you didn't mention is that frame builders usually build frames considering the average-weight rider. I weigh 64kg and I guess that most bikes are built to tolerate riders of up to 120kg. Can you make a video on the subject and the possible solutions to the problem?

[@hardtailparty]

I mention rider weight a bit in this video, but it is a great idea for a dedicated topic down the road. The best solution would be custom-built frame where the builder takes rider weight into consideration. Unfortunately a lot of light riders just have to get used to a stiff frame built for a heavy rider.

[@slimdog72]

I enjoy listening to someone who has actually has ridden a bunch of hardtails than the internet troll saying that they should make it in a different way. Great vid. Thanks. I have owned a hand full of hardtails starting in the early 90's. I still own my 1994 Kona hot. One other thing is steel is cheaper to fix as well. I broke my 2015 Ritchey P-29er last year. No help from the manufacture. I also am enjoying my first fat bike fully rigid this year as well.

[@hardtailparty]

agreed. Steel and ti are often thought of as repairable, while aluminum is usually thought of as disposable. Fortunately, I've never cracked either.

[@lucasbryson4585]

I’m just curious, you said the Kona honzo st is pretty stiff, I’m looking at the Explosif and is that frame similar in stiffness? Thanks

[@hardtailparty]

I haven't ridden the new explosif, sorry.

[@ronyocta8240]

What do you think about Chromag Stylus? How good is it?

[@hardtailparty]

see my recent samurai review.

[@chumpmtb2554]

About welding, I'm curious.. Could 2 identical bikes (same frame, material, size, rider, etc) feel different from one another depending on the welder? In other words, could 2 welders, building the same bikes, working for the same company, build bikes that feel different due to their own individual techniques? 🤔

[@hardtailparty]

Potentially, but I doubt it would be noticeable. This is a good question for the frame builders over at reeb. My hunch is that if both are skilled welders and get the proper penetration, it should feel almost identical, regardless of technique. One place you would feel it is in the fitting of the joints. If bike A has sloppy joints and bike B has tight joints prior to welding, you'll feel it usually welding skill has more of an effect on durability than ride quality. Good prep and good welds mean stronger joints that don't crack over time.

[@ranggapermana3518]

So informative, but how about production privee Shan gt ?? It's good ?

[@hardtailparty]

I've always wanted to ride one of those, but you hardly see them in the US.

[@jaredreynolds5250]

I picked up a Breezer Squall when performance bike went out of business. AL frame, super stiff climbs like a billy goat. And for the riding I do (lots of flow) it really performs. Of course at 240 pounds the stiffness is a plus!

[@hardtailparty]

Nice! There were some great deals to be had at that blowout sale. I almost bought a bike then too.

[@MrMJJ23]

Well, whats your favorite steel frame that you have tested?

[@aldeux7086]

I currently have the dartmoor hornet. That beast doesn't flex. I can feel all the rough bits on my legs. But i love it. Being heavy i feel more secure and confident about that frame.

[@hardtailparty]

Yeah, that looks like a super stiff frame. But the geo looks fun!

[@armandovillarreal5405]

Have you ridden the Nukeproof Scout? Or heard anything about how its made? I have one and love it but can't really compare it to anything. Thanks for the info!

[@hardtailparty]

No, I havent. There aren't many nukeproofs in the US. I'd love to try one though.

[@brauliogarcia9877]

Great video. I ride a steel Stanton Switchback. With a 140mm DVO diamond. I love it. I’m curious if you’ve ridden one and what your thoughts were

[@hardtailparty]

I've been wanting to ride one of those for s long time. It looks beautiful, and I'm betting it rides great too. You don't see them much in the US. I wish Stanton could send me a demo bike to ride for s review.

[@shanemb3]

A couple other UK bikes worth mentioning: - Ragley Bluepig - Cotic Soul

[@hardtailparty]

I've owned a cotic soul. I loved that bike. I have a ragley coming for review soon.

[@shanemb3]

@@hardtailparty I've never ridden. Would love to try out. Only "downsides" to either that I see are the Soul has fairly traditional-ish geo and the Bluepig won't fit plus tires (limited to 2.4"). Guy Kesteven really seemed to enjoy the recently updated Soul.