Is Sumo Deadlifting Cheating?

[@OmarIsuf]

How can it be wrong if it feels so right!?!

[@tylersebs3373]

OmarIsuf eat butt, it's the "dark side"

[@jasperm.8093]

Although Omar is memeing, it does feel very right

[@thomaswalsh5048]

More power to the sumo 💪

[@МартинДиклиев]

But it looks wrong

[@МартинДиклиев]

@Jeeses99 I mean that it looks unpleasant

[@NickKarlin7010]

Do you tell your parents you pull sumo?

[@calgarybarbell]

I’m working up the courage... 😕

[@nickt3169]

Have you tried praying the sumo away?

[@nllc9779]

Nick T 😆

[@NickKarlin7010]

Nick T I actually tried sending my kid to a conventional camp once and I found him pulling sumo 2 weeks after coming home

[@nickfas1429]

If sumo is respectable then put it in your resume.

[@jamesmanning8795]

love the extra burn with the metric system

[@SbassLaser]

throwing hella shade at the us

[@taunokekkonen5733]

I mean, Canadurp is part of the civilized west!

[@seudechrist]

@@taunokekkonen5733 are we really though?

[@samsonclark]

🤣🤣

[@DanNguyen-oc3xr]

The metric was a burn?

[@eeervin3]

Deadlifting is cheating altogether: have some proper range of motion and snatch that barbell right above your head! :D

[@VortechBand]

Snatch is cheating, as you're using momentum and jumping under the bar for extra benefit. Be a man and do a combined deadlift + bicep curl + overhead press in one motion :)

[@MrInzombia]

VortechBand lmao bicep curl into a slow and control strict over headpress, then do some tricep extensions while the weight is up there for a few good reps before putting it back down.

[@takodafreeman1668]

@@MrInzombia after you tricep extend it, put it on your back and start squatting it

[@jeremyh1857]

@@takodafreeman1668 after you done squatting, do some good mornings.

[@Porkylily]

You better stop now

[@RoyalzDevil]

as grand daddy Boris Sheiko would say, "it's an empty discussion, only weak people think sumo is cheating"

[@UnicornsForPresident]

Or maybe people who see that more often than not a person will sumo more than they do conventional think sumo is cheating and it has nothing to do with them being weak

[@jg-yy5lr]

@Gore4ever FulciLives you sound like a weak lifter lol

[@Kwert]

Gore4ever FulciLives you should tell that to Ed Coan

[@bigmcdick4916]

Jordan You clearly don’t see the joke in that dudes comment

[@bigmcdick4916]

Jordan that Gore4Ever dude, the things he says are worded so ridiculously he’s 100% satire

[@brownerthemonk]

"he's super long and gangly and weird" hahah.... crease!!

[@hepotitus]

Long time ago when I was in physics we went to a weight room and measured the Joules (energy) required in a lift and how it was affected by things like RoM. It'd be interesting to see something similar done to this test.

[@finnconroy2668]

Work (in joules ) = force * distance. So yes a sumo pull will require less energy than a conventional one of the same weight, since the barbell moves a shorter distance. Energy requirement isn’t the limiting factor of lift though, but rather the maximum torque requirements at the joints involved. Sumo has been shown to require the same torque requirement as conventional.

[@Grutzai]

@@finnconroy2668 energy is also torque*angle traveled. The angle traveled is less insumo, so less work

[@finnconroy2668]

@@Grutzai Yes but the amount of work done still isn’t what makes a lift harder. so unless sumo requires less torque requirements at the joints, it isn’t easier.

[@Akbarkhaan_]

@@finnconroy2668 Force is subjective because of lever actions. Depending on where your fulcrum is, you can move the lever more or less, with the same force . 0------------^-------------1 0----^---------------------1 0---------------------^----1 If the fulcrum is close to the load, you'll move the load less distance. If the fulcrum is close to the puller, you'll move the load more distance. With the same amount of effort required.

[@ColdBwoyy]

I don't understand why people hate on the sumo deadlift so much. For me personally, I'm 6 foot 4, arms are pretty short and my legs are long af. It feels more comfortable on my body to do sumo deadlifts. I can do conventional deadlifts, but not comfortably. The sumo deadlift is more technical in nature and I know guys that can conventional deadlift 495 but can't sumo deadlift 225 for reps. In the end, do what works for you! who tf cares if people say you're "cheating. Chances are they probably can't lift nearly as much as you can. Am I right?

[@winston3737]

My views on sumo are the same as much views on the contortionist bench press. It's legal in competition, but not so impressive for the observer.

[@tatskamaster]

I mean.. If it takes 10-15 cm from the rom regardless of the lifter and it has different leverages and joint angles, shouldn't it be considered a different movement?

[@maxaffe3195]

true

[@ZugZug99]

so should benchers with a wide grip and a naturally large arch compete in a different fed? Should lowbar be in a different fed? If the ROM is different regardless of the lifter then they should just switch to sumo. Simple as that. Yet some people dont, why? Oh that's right because it's not like that for everybody you dumb fuck.

[@maxaffe3195]

@@ZugZug99 jesus calm down

[@Halo23874]

Liu Kang that's an empty opinion

[@weirdohero2723]

Interesting, I got mad respect from my Bros who wouldn't lie and kiss my ass after I pulled 550 at 160 be...maybe speaking for yourself

[@joshmonty3095]

Sumo is cheating in strongman competitions. Besides that, it's just another way to lift.

[@calgarybarbell]

I would agree fully! It’s against the rules!

[@tylersebs3373]

I dont think its cheating its just not allowed

[@hookgrip4jesus310]

Sebastian Tyler *facepalm* and the Darwin Award for Biggest Dunce goes to you, my good sir! Conglaturation! How does it feel to know you’re leading the way in human de-evolution?

[@tylersebs3373]

Ryan Newton how is that human de-evolotion? sumo and "cheating" is a discussion. and I wasnt wrong, I just didn't comply to the way you want it. which is ignorant and arrogant.

[@hookgrip4jesus310]

Sebastian Tyler Go back and read your own comment first buddy. I said what I said because you clearly contradicted yourself in the statement that sumo “isn’t cheating, it’s just not allowed (in strongman)”. When referring to the legality of the subject in question, “cheating” and “not allowed” are synonymous. Hence, I made a (slightly) low ball joke about your stupidity being a part of the reason humans are “de-evolving”. Congrats, you’re 0 for 2 on comments today. Better luck next time

[@susunsns]

Sumo doesn't tax my back and allows me to fully use my legs, it's the only way to fully enjoy deadlifting for me without feeling like SHIT afterwards

[@TheDdty]

Yeah but your literally killing your back! And your not getting as much of a pull!!!

[@MrBravo1990dk]

Even though i exclusively do conv, i don't get why it would be cheating when the stance is legal in competition. It would be like saying a runner is cheating because he has longer legs. And if used for hypertrophy purposes it's just a matter of what muscles you want to work more, and hence doesn't apply.

[@Leo.witchere]

no it's not like saying a runner is cheating because he has longer legs, like at all ; we never talked about physique, but technique

[@MrBravo1990dk]

Im merely speaking in terms of utilizing an advantage.

[@Leo.witchere]

you should be merely talking about technique, but you just were speaking about physique with your "runners with longer legs"

[@MrBravo1990dk]

Considering that people often utilize on or the other(sumo vs conv), depending on their physique, then how are they not related?

[@Leo.witchere]

I don't considerate this in that debate, I mean : in competition based debate

[@esbenrasmussen2419]

You need to let the measuring tape hang to get an accurate result. In some cases, you measured at a steep angle like at 4:52

[@HoodSwami]

4:55 Lmao he measured like 3cm away from where directly below the plate was

[@jrodtopo]

Yeah, that was some major parallax error.

[@helphowdoinputusername3571]

If you use trigonometry that's not even a 0.5cm difference. tan^-1(3/34)= 5.6 degrees 34cm*cos(5.6) ≃ 33.9cm So 🤷‍♂️

[@grzegorzjedrzejowski5746]

I personally pull sumo deadlift and I don't think it gives me any advantage. The reason I do it, is because it anatomically suits me. Convensional makes my back feel pain and i do not feel comfortable with it. I think you should choose the one, you enjoy most. Only a group of people can lift both effectively and they probably can DL more in sumo, since it is more leg focused.

[@spacegupta71]

Just fix your form lmfao

[@rickywagner6990]

So how do you explain more records being pulled by sumo than conventional? Because it’s shorter ROM, easier to recover from, and not a true hip hinge. Less core.

[@rickywagner6990]

The list goes on and on.

[@grzegorzjedrzejowski5746]

@@rickywagner6990 what is heavier? Convencional WR or Sumo WR? Sumo allow some people, that are able to perform both styles, an advantage. But they are people, not even a small amount to be honest, that cannot pull differently. Bitching that it is cheating is just lame.

[@griffinmaat8761]

anatomically dumbass

[@transmundanemusic]

I love it. The "sumo is cheating" crowd don't even lift, let's be honest.

[@transmundanemusic]

Very articulate. Don’t go using all the big words you know at once.

[@transmundanemusic]

Prob cause you can't pull sumo for shit. Am I right? You've tried and failed? Miserably?

[@transmundanemusic]

what's with your homosexuality obsession? A little suspect if you ask me. Oh, and btw, I train both. So, all your failed attempts at sumo pulls have given you nightmares, ya? That's ok man, not everyone knows how to pull sumo. Don't beat yourself up.

[@transmundanemusic]

You've gone and done it: used all the big words you know in one sentence. It's not a good look man. And I don't believe you deadlift weight, at all. But please! Please accept me, oh lord of the deadlift!

[@transmundanemusic]

I don't care if you train for reps and pump lol I care if you can move weight, cause you're talking like you can. And you know Bryce has set records in both styles, ya? Have you set any records? I already know the answer to that....

[@mightasWill]

Effin Bruce Krawfish.

[@iSeven1000]

lol did Dillon just call himself "Big D" the whole video? I mean he edits these, right? Please say yes, that would be amazing

[@calgarybarbell]

Yes, yes he did.

[@bisonhawk1]

I train both honestly, I've heard it said, that Sumo is a performance move whereas conventional is a developmental movement. My Sumo deadlift is about 40 lb higher than my conventional.

[@nickkastoris8030]

Does range of motion actually matter? I think that measuring moment arms to the hip and back along the axes of their respective levers perpendicular to gravity in the start position (or wherever they're longest, if your knees drift back) would give you a much clearer picture of the differences for a sport of singles. We're not measuring mechanical work in powerlifting, we're measuring force output and torque. This thought also sorta justifies the divide between powerlifting and strongman (also crossfit). If you're doing reps, range of motion matters a LOT, and strongman (also crossfit) frequently have max rep deadlifts as events. Powerlifters really shouldn't give a shit about ROM, since all that really matters is if you're producing enough force to keep the bar going at the mechanically weakest part of the range of motion, and sumo doesn't give you a favourable answer to that question.

[@calgarybarbell]

I completely agree that a single measurement of N=2 lifters doesn’t give us even close to a full picture of anything really. The measurements were simply a curiosity for Dillon and I, and a decent talking point.

[@nickkastoris8030]

Senpai noticed me. :D Yeah, for sure an interesting start, especially given how close the percentage differences are. I'm afraid that just seeing ROM differences without any other analysis is more fuel for the "sumo is BS" crowd, though. :/

[@popurm]

Nick Kastoris well, well, well.

[@popurm]

Your comment has been reported. ROM is the end all and be all! Jk

[@nickkastoris8030]

Mr Cripples, in powerlifting, we measure a proxy for force output: pounds on a bar. Mechanical work matters a HUGE deal in training decisions, but the sport isn't about mechanical work. It's about pounds on a bar and whether or not you can move them within the constraints of the competitive movements. Distance is not a variable that you're scored on within the sport.

[@MatiasStrengthCoach]

This was a great video Mr Krawfish. Like the translation to cold numbers as opposed to opinions (which is great aswell, but this just gives a different feedback)

[@nicolasbraun2642]

You know, back when weightlifters started squat snatching in the 50s and 60s the splitters never cried "cheating" because the rules don't say split (or squat). If you can lift more within the rule you win. Disagreeing about a legal win is called bad sportsmanship, as I understand it, and it isn't even up for debate except in their minds.

[@victormanin2074]

It is not the same thing. In weightlifting the bar still ends up at the same spot ROM isn't different just the way it gets there. Where as here Sumo has a shorter rom and as many people said just look at the IPF under 105kg how many pull sumo and how many pull conventional.

[@nicolasbraun2642]

Victor Manin The range of motion of the first/second pull of a squat snatch is about 5cm shorter than the split. Everybody accepts the fact you need to pull the bar higher to get under it because the aft leg needs to go really far to reach final catch position and it takes a bit longer to get into position for the catch, so it needs to be higher. Because the range of motion from the floor to final position is the same (with the same lifter) doesn't mean the distance traveled was also the same...remember in WL the bar can change direction in a good lift and it does. Look at how much extra ROM there is when someone catches a clean too high and comes down 11cm to bottom before coming back up. You are certainly right about the comparison not being a terrific one about lifting mechanics; my comment is more about the fact the rules define what cheating is, not what technique is easiest for you. WLs also only started squatting (in competition) once the rules stopped specifying the grip width for the lift(1946) and squat snatching (with a wide grip) became a legal option: it was no longer 'cheating".

[@aspiezio]

Going back further, classic snatches were not even allowed to touch the body.

[@JW_Haze]

So, you just prove it’s a different movement. Perhaps it should get its own category.

[@yorkoxmaul66]

ever heard of mv0.5v^2=mgh in high school physics? what is the h I wonder.

[@nickfas1429]

Right

[@shadjohnsen8143]

Sumo is also easier on the back, and works the quads and upper traps more.

[@shemshem9998]

That’s why I do sumo on 100+ only, I had a back injury so I use it so that I have less stress

[@SantanaBanana47]

@@shemshem9998 same. I'm also kind of small so it feels easiest for me. Sumo is usually easier for smaller people and conventional is easier for larger people.

[@nickfas1429]

Ok good for you to put your health first but they are 2 different movement.That means that you cant do the one instead or the other expecting to train your muscle groups the same way.Its that simply.

[@Dr.WhetFarts]

Sumo has way better carry over to squat, because i used to do both and when i began sumo my squat always went up fast and almost stalled when I went back to conventional. My glutes get hit hard with sumo, not the case with conventional either. If you love deadlifting - for some reason - do both... Like Jamal

[@nickfas1429]

@@Dr.WhetFarts deadlift is traditionally a back exercise.I dont get doing a variation of it to improve your legs.And sumo isnt even a great leg exercise.I mean better do Jefferson squats, barbell hack squat or wide stance squats.All of them engage the quad more than sumo.

[@krzysztof-michalak]

bracing during lift is cheating, real lifters don't need to brace

[@Al.j.Vasquez]

One thing you can do once you measure the difference is to lift with weights or blocks under the plates, raising the bar an equal amount to what you got by comparing both styles. Imagine to lift conventional with the bar 16cm higher, it would definitely make it easier to lock the knees, but one thing has to be said about sumo, the force is not being applied in a straight line, but still, i would consider that the advantage in starting pulling position could make a bit of a difference, specially if the difference is that big. I must say tho, the involvement of the muscles is totally different in each style, for which i believe they should be different lifts, but I'm just a nobody when it comes to powerlifting.

[@StevenMartinGuitar]

It's two different lifts though, so not sure why people would compare them anyway. You don't compare conventional deadlift records with stiff legged deadlifts records, so why sumo and conventional?

[@calgarybarbell]

If you were competing and you decided to pull stiff-legged, then you absolutely would be comparing the lifts. The difference is your training numbers vs max lifts in a meet. You wouldn’t consider your high bar PR equivalent with your low bar PR, but regardless of how you squat in a meet - it’s a squat.

[@jakddn]

@@calgarybarbell I see your point but I think if sumo is better (cheating) then why doesn’t everyone just deadlift sumo and then we can have a separate place for conventional I mean arching on bench makes sense, I’m talking about when powerlifters arch so much it pretty ridiculous when they arch so much it isn’t even really a rep but this just doesn’t make sense, if sumo is easier then pull sumo it’s not so bad to the point we’re it’s like not even a rep anymore as oppose to powerlifting bench’s

[@alexisvnc]

Look at the percentage of lifters pulling sumo vs conventional at IPF worlds, especially all the weight classes up to 105kg/230lb. Now answer this question "Is sumo easier for most of the population?" Spoiler alert: yes

[@calgarybarbell]

Sure. I wouldn’t argue with you at all on that point.

[@yewtewb3628]

How many IPF boiz and girls are max-width benchers? Same thing.

[@andyc16us]

@@calgarybarbell So what do you think it is about Brett Gibbs that he seems to prefer, and do better pulling conventionally? I'm wondering if it's longer arms or short tibias or something, but I don't know, as I'm not an expert. Any thoughts?

[@tonytaylor5165]

Depends some people cannot do shumo well at heavier loads as it becomes more 2 part lift from after the bar gets past your shin going towards knee and regular restanceing after a rep some issues don't really come across on conventional

[@nickfas1429]

Thats the point.The arguement with sumo vs conventional isnt that sumo isnt a legit or good movement/exercise.The problem is that pulling sumo against conventional its not logical cause they 2 different movements.They hv different range of motion and the joints are on different angles.Meanimg that they use the muscle groups in different ways.Its like comparing you incline bench press with your dumbbell press.

[@ethanlewis7635]

Decreasing the ROM of a powerlift decreases the muscular involvement of the powerlift

[@mr.facebookangryfacereacto8283]

Yes among many other things. But dont start arguing with these powerlifting junkies. You can see this guy doesn't have much longer in the game at this rate. He's already wearing himself down. Its his lower sciatic region now, but next will be his shoulder, etc...

[@ethanlewis7635]

I was arguing in favor of Sumo dumbass.

[@johnyrodriguez6619]

Mike Stoklasa You're the dumbass then.

[@MrInzombia]

Ethan Lewis Summo actually decreases range of motion. By spreading your legs apart like a stripper, youve already decreased the distance the bar has to travel by 3-4 inches

[@Dirtkid98505]

But muh rounded thoracic narrow stance Konstantinovs record tho

[@michaellopez-lq5fn]

If sumo is unfair then so is having short femurs

[@jamescalvert7]

Big D’s conventional pull is my height.

[@pmodd]

Honestly, it's not difficult to figure out the context of what people mean when they say that sumo is cheating; they're talking about how strength is regarded in the real world. If you need to pick up an engine block or a chunk of concrete and move it somewhere, are you going to pick it up in a sumo position and waddle like a crab 20 meters across the shop? No, that would be the dumbest shit ever and you'll probably bust an abductor in the process. What would actually happen is that you would position yourself to get as much bend in the knees as possible and lift to a standing position so you can move the object in question, which is like a practical version of a conventional deadlift, since most heavy objects aren't bars.

[@trevorbaker7168]

I think pulling sumo is the deadlift equivalent of arching your back excessively on bench... there's no doubt it makes the movement easier in the sense that you're moving it less distance, but you also have a very different leverage that can work for or against you depending on your body type and training regimen. For example, I actually pull signigicantly less sumo than conventional despite less ROM. A possible solution would be categorizing conventional and sumo separately, but I think that would unnecessarily complicate things

[@Ninjachicken20]

So if sumo is 'cheating' because of reduced rom, are short people cheating?

[@PATRIOTxx3]

It's not about how high the weight is at the peak of the rep, it's about how sharp the angles of your joints are and the torque applied to them. That's why you can lift more if the bar is at a higher starting height. In sumo, the angles are way more obtuse and there is less torque being applied so they are easier. I'm not saying they should be banned just different category than conventional. I personally do sumo because I have a long torso but also long femurs and it's much more ergonomic. But, yes, they are easier

[@nickfas1429]

Spoke the truth.

[@marshallore6869]

The Sumo Deadlift is generally easier for women because they have better mobility and stronger legs and hips relative to their back. You've seen women with big quads and glutes, but you've probably never seen a women with big traps and lats. It is of note that the Straddle Deadlift and the Behind the Back Deadlift are currently banned in all federations.

[@nickkastoris8030]

And if those same women have short backs, which means erector strength becomes less of an issue, they set records conventional. See: Kim Walford, Marisa Inda, Jessica Buettner. Traps and lats don't move weight in the deadlift. Hips do, regardless of stance.

[@marwinod2292]

I mean looking at the difference of the ROM between conventional and sumo most think that they have to be stronger at sumo. But they‘re missing that they need way more stability in the sumo deadlift then in the conventional deadlift. I believe that‘s the main reason some are not stronger in sumo than conventional (including me). Sorry if my grammar is a bit off and commas are missing everywhere but I‘m german and commas in english are hard af

[@clownpocket]

Cody Sawyers I agree, and therefore they should be competed seperately.

[@marwinod2292]

Cody Sawyers totally on your side. Everyone is allowed to pull sumo therefore there are no disadvantages for anyone. Same thing like with knee sleeves, belt, wrist wraps. You don‘t have to use them but you can. It‘s out of question to differ them.

[@tylersebs3373]

Marwin Demisch theres actually a study on EMG activation on sumo and conventional and the only difference is more quad activation.

[@Kapppa]

5:06 there's no way Dillon's normal deadlift stance is that narrow...

[@maximalstar1998]

Actually, I'd tend to say that sump benefits more to taller guys than shorter : taller dudes tend to have some long limbs, and being able to pull sumo allows to have so much better leverages such as lower hip hinge, and this multiplicates the advantage that is having long arms since they're not counteracted by the long legs

[@chuckdenomolos7359]

Not a powerlifter here but one version looks like it uses your back and the other looks like a wide stance squat , isn’t that two different lifts?

[@maturner0913]

What is a guide you recommend for people trying to decide between sumo and conventional based on their proportions/leverages?

[@Aeklypsis]

The first thing you usually hear from coaches/experienced lifters is to pull sumo if it is geometrically impossible for you to hold a maximum of 90 degrees back angle while pulling conventional. That said, there are a bunch of really tall guys pulling conventional with a rounded back who seem to be doing ok. Having struggled with this question myself, all I can say is try them both (starting with conventional if you are a novice lifter) and stick with the one that allows you to pull more weight and recover better.

[@maturner0913]

yeah i pull conventional right now and have a meet in 4 weeks. After that, i was going to take a semi-extended off season and play around with sumo a bit just to see how it goes. Thanks for the reply

[@wheynelau]

Aeklypsis yup taller people just can't sumo I still have no idea why. I can't sumo for shit either. Alot of the u93+ lifters tend to pull conventional

[@LouiePlaysGames]

When you say 90 degrees, 90 degrees from where?

[@Aeklypsis]

the angle your upper body forms with the vertical plane (the plane where the bar moves). It essentially means that your hips are higher than your shoulders, which is not uncommon for really tall people.

[@SuperJotunn]

I don't honestly know who's weirder: the people who think sumo is cheating or the people upset about centimetres

[@jessetamburri5379]

Cheating = of course not More efficient = yes I like conventional for hypertrophy and sumo for powerlifting. After all its all about moving maximal weight and as Chris Duffin said "I outlift guys that are stronger than me all the time". This is just my two cents, I like both (not trying to be diplomatic its just my experience). Love the video!

[@DisasterRasta]

Easier = yes

[@Bellroysg]

What about hypertrophy. Which would be best?

[@merynpeach9727]

It's interesting that your conventional rom was exactly the same as big d's sumo rom. Surely in this situation it can't be classed as cheating if all you're doing by pulling sumo is bringing the distance you have to move the weight in line with other competitors. Besides, I've never seen someone who benches with a wide grip be called a cheat because they're reducing their rom

[@theadnudcyk]

Hey Bryce, given the difference in ROM and muscle recruitment patterns, do you think sumo and conventional stances should be classified as separate lifts in competition?

[@wheynelau]

theadnudcyk that's the most polite way of saying sumo is not a dead lift due to the shorter ROM I will give you props for that. Here's another question for you, should a close grip bench and a wide grip bench be classified as separate lifts? Your answer to this will be the answer to your question

[@clownpocket]

The answer is yes.

[@calgarybarbell]

No. I think the rules are what the rules are and the two stances are simply wider and narrower. Just like benching or squatting wide or narrow. It’s still very much a deadlift. A deadlift being defined as lifting the bar from the floor to full hip and knee extension.

[@theadnudcyk]

I never said that sumo was not a deadlift; what I was insinuating was that given different movement patterns and muscle recruitment does it really make sense for them to be compared in competition? Different leverages lend themselves to the 2 stances; quad dominant lifters vs. posterior chain dominant lifters will intrinsically be better at one or the other. Your example of close vs wide grip bench makes an interesting point because if 2 people were comparing their 'bench strength' - chances are that they will both chose a wider than close grip bench (rather than 1 person doing a close grip and the other doing a wide grip). Similarly, if you yourself were comparing your own bench strength - I assume you wouldn't one day do a close grip (where you're slightly weaker) and then do wide grip the next day (and lift relatively more) and then say you've suddenly gotten stronger?

[@wheynelau]

name checks out

[@nicfish93]

Sick vid. I reckon measuring hip and knee angle differences could also be cool for this experiment.

[@davids1135]

Steffi Cohen’s range of motion is like 20cm. The bar is almost at her knees on the floor.

[@ZzDoubleX]

How come they take a wider stance on a deadlift bar vs a stiff bar?

[@j.l.5966]

ZzDoubleX to even further shorten the range of motion

[@ZzDoubleX]

That makes sense. But my question specifically is why can't they take that same wide stance on a stiff bar

[@j.l.5966]

ZzDoubleX The bar length of a deadlift bar is longer than that of a normal bar. Taller lifters or those with longer legs can’t stand as wide with a regular oly bar. Look at 2:04 where Dillon’s toes are nearly touching the plates and yet his stance isn’t as wide compared to 5:26 on the DL bar. And also look at 4:30 where Bryce can take an extra wide stance (without the risk of crushing his toes) on the DL bar. For reference, a regular oly bar is 51-52 inches between sleeves, while a deadlift bar is 56 inches (Texas deadlift bar).

[@ZzDoubleX]

Oh its totally obvious now that you pointed it out. Thanks bro appreciate it

[@norihcx9987]

Sumo "vs" Conv is the age old question...its time for a new age; Sumo "&" Conv Unless you are in worlds, get technically sound with both...imo Great video as always!

[@Caleb-lu3zl]

How about we just have separate competitions for real dead lifts and competitions for short people that do sumo

[@abhisheksathe123]

Thank you for using Metric system as rest of the world

[@d3RrRp]

3:22 how is 62.5 - 50.5 = 11.5?

[@santosmichelena3519]

Whats harder? A wide grip pullup or a shoulder grip pullup?

[@UltraWhale]

I think sumo and conventional are 2 different lifts and shouldnt be compared. Change my mind.

[@atruescotsmanuth2481]

Should high bar and low bar squats not be compared aswell? Both use very different muscle groups

[@UltraWhale]

@@atruescotsmanuth2481 i would say it would be more like comparing a front squat to a back squat

[@atruescotsmanuth2481]

@@UltraWhale No its not. Nobody ever front squats more than they back squat. Its not gonna happen, whereas many people do in fact deadlift conventional more than sumo.

[@UltraWhale]

@@atruescotsmanuth2481 ye thats a good point tbh

[@travish325]

Range of motion is entirely different. Either all competitors lift sumo, or they all lift conventional. That's the only way to be fair.

[@nicokorkiamaki2991]

I still respect conventional pullers more. It looks cooler and it requires more raw strength.

[@mspawitra8421]

I dont know why, but my sumo dl isnt as strong as my conv dl. It feels really awkward deadlift in sumo stance for me. I think both has different cue and technique

[@gabriellenicholls6712]

Satya Pawitra Sumo isn’t easier for everyone. People with different leverages perform the one that they prefer personally. Anyone who says sumo is cheating just doesn’t understand how leverages work. Use the style that is most comfy for you 👍🏻

[@nickfas1429]

@@gabriellenicholls6712 wrong

[@populer208]

You could have just taken the difference between length of the leg times the cosine of the angle from neutral for each stance. This is because the difference in stances would affect lockout height of the legs or arms. 85.9 cm leg * (cos of 1.5° conventional stance- cos of 25.5° sumo stance) = 8.22 cm difference between stances. I also got these numbers based on the video, measuring pixels for height (proportioning them out with the known tape measure) and using an on screen protractor.

[@populer208]

Well, I guess you may grab the bar differently for each stance, which changes the lockout height too, but the same equation would work too: 63.0 cm arm * (cos of 3.8° conventional grip - cos of 1.2° sumo grip) = -0.1 cm difference (this formal assumes a bigger angle is better, but for arms, the smaller angle is better, so the answer is negative), so the difference is minimal in grip width.

[@bullit4170]

Would someone with longer legs compared to torso benefit from sumo?

[@shankhamandal9707]

Can I do a full split and just hold the bar?

[@christopheralvarez6076]

Interested in how you'd feel about bench press where those ppl have that huge arch and barely move the bar a couple of inches if that. You can't tell me THATS not cheating...

[@skye1355]

Christopher Alvarez in DL bar plate width is the stopping factor. Can't put your feet past plates, right? In BP flexibility can be trained to achieve a sky high arch

[@mart1062]

why isn't range of motion important in deadlifts if it is in squats? A quarter squat would not fly in a competition. so why should sumo be acceptable?

[@calgarybarbell]

Because the range of motion is defined as “floor to lockout”. Which is anatomical in definition, just like “hip crease below the top of the knee”. If someone widens their stance in the squat, is that unacceptable because the absolute distance is shorter?

[@mart1062]

Calgary Barbell I’m not all that knowledgeable in this field nor will I pretend I am but man it does seem like the two should be in two completely different categories. I understand completely with what you replied and agree. It’s just in a competition that seeks out the “strongest” competitor and not the competitor that can most efficiently complete the motions required you’d think they’d look at that range of motion or lack of as a sneaky way to get a heads up over others.

[@shaunarcher8015]

You said short guys have better leverages for sumo, what would u consider short? I’m about 6foot 1 which I would class as tall so should I stick to conventional?

[@rockstarsmg3632]

Can someone answer me why have nearly all world record lifts been done conventional? If sumo is easier why dont those 6'6" giants pull sumo?

[@LakedaimonII]

They don't answer you. Sumo is an advanced technique like front squat compared vs back squat. I know, PL is PL and that's ok, but in a non competitive scenario learning and doing sumo and front is far superior and safer. Really safer. And that's what is important. Ah, chinup has more Rom then pullups, but they are easier. ROM means nothing.

[@ivan_9386]

Lower weight classes are using more sumo. When you are heavyweight than leverages are different and you lose mobility.

[@thatrespectablehuman1884]

@@ivan_9386 people ask these questions because natural interest trends towards "WHAT IS THE BIGGEST NUMBER" for most people and they seem to forget that weight classes even exist or have records, so they just don't check

[@basmca1]

well that's easy. 1: Many records are in fact sumo, and every year a larger % of records are set sumo. 2: Sumo hasn't been populair for very long. 3: Sumo is banned in strongman, so you'll never see those guys do it.

[@katayamakinen]

Finally! Someone is talking in cm and not in inches... Liked & Subscribed!

[@Gloin79]

4:54 it's even shorter since you didn't measure at a right angle

[@UnicornsForPresident]

If two men are the same strength and have the same leverages, the one that pulls sumo will almost always deadlift more. It's not cheating because it's legal but it definitely is advantageous and that's undeniable.

[@lizardhero]

Could someone please explain to me the difference between a "stiff bar" and a "deadlift bar" and how a deadlift bar reduces range of motion? Never knew there different types of bars like this.

[@pattybaselines]

Deadlift bars are generally longer, whippier and have no center knurling.

[@sshetty995]

Which DL form is better for an average person who just wants to get stronger ?

[@Alex-po3vn]

What about muscle recruitment? Might be a good topic to talk about and could tell us some interesting things like the difference in the muscle mass used in the performance.

[@stephanmurphy7947]

Awesome video, clears up a lot of questions I had. Do the competitions you compete in use a deadlift bar or a stiff bar?

[@hamzathabit8184]

ipf uses the stiffest of the stiff bars

[@apo75018]

Eleiko bars just wont bend. At all.

[@calgarybarbell]

I use a stiff bar in comps

[@keysersoze5920]

Am wondering what your respective PRs are in both conventional and sumo?

[@calgarybarbell]

343kg conventional and 375kg sumo (raw) 390kg sumo (Equipped)

[@lennartmartin7361]

Is there any benefit with sumo stance for general strength? In other words, should you train both?

[@calgarybarbell]

The thing is, Strength is specific. If you’re asking if you should train sumo as a conventional puller? Potentially? It’s likely going to carry over less than a more conventional type movement, but if you’re not a competitive powerlifter, why not give it a try and see how you find it?

[@AerinQQ]

Bryce, whats the actual difference in range of motion between stiff and deadlift bar without significant whip on the deadlift bar (which is there I guess around 250 kg+, but there is almost 0 with one plate on each side)? I think the whole difference between range of motion of both bars it showed is because you used wider stance with the deadlift bar, which obviously decreases range of motion. thanks for clarification

[@mbuckler123]

How does one find their leverages and figure out which style is optimal?

[@OceansBane]

I’ve had someone telling me that hook grip was cheating also

[@manikandangunaseelan5624]

Then they have never tried it

[@InanimateObject123]

Sumo lifters using their stronger stance = cheating. Conventional lifters using their stronger stance = not cheating #internetlogic

[@denvergriffin5555]

Sumo is to conventional as an ATG narrow-stance squat is to a wide-stance PL depth squat. Yeah, the distance the bar travels changes. Good point that it has nothing to do with "cheating."

[@hardys1664]

Conventional is hard on the back and when some people start getting back issues they switch to Sumo. Some do Sumo since they think they won't get back issue and get the height leverage. I don't think IPF is gonna change their rule as they did for bench press recently.

[@MrXeyd]

I want to preface this by saying that I agree with the core of your argument that sumo isn't "cheating and takes longer to master technically" and should be legal, especially on a stiff bar. However 2 data points does not a trend make and I think framing the discussion with such low hanging fruit wording like "is it cheating" takes away from the more nuanced observation that not all pulls are made equal, and people who point this out are often called haters. It definitely seems to make little difference on an Eleiko stiff bar which is stiffer and shorter, but imagine one of those 150-160lb guys we see pulling 6+ plates toes to plates on a deadlift bar. The range of motion after the slack is pulled is so small in that case (straps exaggerate this), that that sumo pull is in a different league entirely to the same guy pulling convy, especially since we know smaller guys almost always have to use a narrow convy stance, lengthening their convy ROM. In other words a 70kg guy pulling 260kg in that setup might struggle with 220 convy on a stiff bar. The difference in ROM there would be hooooge, and I'd like to see a measurement of the case described. TL:DR Yes sumo is and should be legal, especially on stiff bars, it's a much more technically demanding lift than convy, but i think the shorter/smaller you are the less you can say it's an equal lift to the convy. They're just different.

[@calgarybarbell]

Oh we’re definitely not saying that our measurements mean anything. We know N=2 is not a statistically significant sample size. And the whole ‘is it cheating’ bit was just to open the conversation.

[@WLOfails]

I've never tried sum deadlift before, but I feel like I would lose a lot of power through my legs if I had to stretch my legs that wide apart.

[@swolby1kanobi]

That last part was the ether that makes em burn slow

[@astrocj4219]

So far as I know, the specific rules and regulations for deadlift are simply to lift the weight off the ground the rules and regulations make no specific mention on stance or style as long as your feet don't go outside the circumference of the plates...in strongman competition I would like to believe sumo is not allowed but I'm not sure so feel free to correct me

[@bogdaniojescu5889]

With long arms,legs and a shot thorso,am i build for sumo or conventional?I did conventional and now i switched to sumo and it took me 4 week to pull the same weight as conventional.

[@clownpocket]

If the movements are so different, they should be competed seperately.

[@calgarybarbell]

The ROM is quite different, but I don’t think the movements are. Should wide grip/narrow grip bench be competed separately? What about wide stance vs narrow stance squats?

[@ethangoss-dickie8544]

Personally, my pr's are about the same for both, but I just feel more explosive when pulling conventional. My setup also feels significantly tighter.

[@andyvaldez212]

Sumo isn't cheating...It's like seated military press vs standing. Ones harder and probably more accurately represents your press strength but we wouldn't say your cheating doing either

[@kfcfingerlicker9292]

Uhmm. Terrible comparison. A standing military press is significantly harder than a seated military press. Based on this strength website. The intermediate seated military press is 158-160. The intermediate shoulder press or standing press is around 140-142. Compare the seating military press to the seating military press ONLY. Now, if you want my opinion on Sumo. It isn't cheating, but it does help guys with very good leverages. strengthlevel.com/

[@salty3069]

Tried sumo 10 days ago definitely requires more mobility and felt harder than conventional maybe cause im not used to it idk

[@cennors6981]

Yep ! I was a conventional puller, 260kg at 19 years old. Switched to sumo 3 months ago, I was struggling with 200kg. Yesterday I did 8 reps at 220kg sumo. It just needs some time for your body to addapt

[@top3anythingrandomstuff98]

im 10 and pull 360kg but when I was 7 I pulled 420kg for tripple.

[@salty3069]

@@top3anythingrandomstuff98 lmao

[@rikkertteuge]

@@frankytanky5076 i have a guy in my gym whos pulling 220 age 18. He is natty. By far his best lift. 115 bench and 165 squat. I dont say its likely to pull 260 but maybe its possible?

[@cennors6981]

@@frankytanky5076 Hell yeah I did it. I am in the national team of my country. 260 isn't that great, especially taking the fact that I was 105kg+, lots of guys are pulling way more in my weightclass... If you don't believe it to be possible tcheck out my friend David Alvarez on instagram, we are in the same team (you can see me spoting him in some videos :D), he did 200kg squat, 120 bench, 210kg deads at 16... We are both being trained by Adrien Poinson, multiple times world record holder in the bench.

[@Sidhu.7.9]

Correct me if I’m wrong… sumo works your back less by shifting focus to quads and glutes, it’s like adding another squat movement to the meet resulting in lifters with a strong lower body and shit upper body to dominate. If deadlifts were conventional only, winners would be more well rounded, stronger athletes

[@stesio8400]

I am short guy (1.68m) do you suggest me to have as primar exercise sumo deadlift or convetional (I have good numbers on both of them)?

[@abcdefghijklmno3764]

Whatever one you feel more comfortable with

[@deadcakesandpanlifts2019]

In the context that people say it? Yes,it is cheating. Thats why no one of the sumo haters is getting convinced that sumo isnt cheating just because the counter argument is "but its allowed to be used in comps". How you should be approaching this issue is telling people that the goal in competetive powerlifting is to demonstrate maximal strengh,not build it,at least not on stage. The conventional is better at building strength and its harder,but the sumo allows you to lift more and better show your maximal strengh,since the goal in powerlifting is to lift heavy ass weight.

[@yewtewb3628]

If you want to judge overall strength look at strongmen competition. Oly/power is judging how strong you can be at three artificial lifts.

[@deadcakesandpanlifts2019]

Yew Tewb powerlifting claims that it just wants to test maximal strengh output of the muscle fibers,which it does. However sumo and conventional recruit muscle fibers at very different points and angles. Powerlifting never claimed it was the most "functional"

[@winston3737]

ChallengingGravity I agree. It's synonymous to what I call the "contortionist bench press." Where the lift is more of a feat of flexibility rather than it is of pure strength.

[@deadcakesandpanlifts2019]

J Ro most sumo lifters train a lot conventional and other variations in their off season. Look at Cailer Woolam or Dan Green.

[@Bowfella]

"Errybody wanna be a bodybuilda! But ain't nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight".

[@Lowrider75]

I am 1.73 tall (hello from the rest of the world, hehehe) and with "normal" leverages and after some time I switched to sumo. Why? In conventional I just cannot place my back flat and brace properly, and I found that in sumo I get rock solid at the whole push/pull. Maybe I have hexbar every now and then, but not conventional for me. Sumo is safer for me. Period.

[@GeorgWilde]

Anything can be "not cheating" when the "relevant people" arbitrarily decide it is not cheating. You see the range of motion difference. The only reason why it is not cheating is because some "relevant people" said so. This defense of summo deadlift is like saying "So you question the rules? Le's focus on what is the problem for you in here. You see? The rules say its not a problem... "

[@heathjohnson2575]

If you don’t pull a deadlift the same way Eddie Hall does then it doesn’t count. The Beast is the deadlift master

[@calgarybarbell]

Oh you mean with a whippy bar, straps, a deadlift suit, and hitching? Lol

[@davidgoodwin6997]

The issue I have with people claiming sumo is cheating is that with good positioning and form, range of motion should be irrelevant. If you get yourself in a good position in either stance, once the bar breaks the ground you should be able to lock it out. If you have shitty positioning in the conventional deadlift and blame missing a lift on ROM you need to re-evaluate your issues.

[@apuuvah]

I think I'ma do conventional, deficit conventional (with and without bands), conventional off blocks (2"), sumo. And... ass-to-grass (ie. weightlifting) squats, 45 degree weighted hyperextensions, barbell rows, T-bar rows. That just about covers it all.

[@lievliberant6019]

There's a clear pattern that USUALLY more weight can be pulled sumo. Regardless, I wouldn't consider it a cheat any more than I'd begrudge another lifter for having longer arms than me. If I, as a strictly conventional puller, set out to best another lifter who pulls sumo, my M.O. is to pull more weight, full stop. No excuses about technique or leverages, just pull more weight. Or don't, accept defeat and give due credit.

[@lisaroselasaga]

Great video:) I wanna know why i can pull more doing conventional than i can sumo. For some reason i find the initial pull really hard to get off the floor. I even take my stance in quite a bit n make sure my joints r stacked.

[@mohawk3371]

Relatively weaker quads and stronger posterior chain. The hardest part of the Sumo is of the floor, so if your quad strength is insufficient to break it of the floor. Therefor shorter range of motion doesn't matter, and the back and hamstrings never really get a chance to engage and contribute significantly to the lift.

[@Huwbacca]

Just clicked. I am so excited to see someone set a guiness world record for shouting no for a full 8m18s

[@calgarybarbell]

Glad you liked it!